CNN News about terrorism Attack in London

[Trimontana]

Just we can pray for those have been killed and for their souls and families :(
CNN Report (http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/07/london.tube/index.html)

[The Lithium]

My family knows a young couple who lives in central London. My dad keeps 'em updated by SMS. 'Cause they can't get any news out on the streets. And of course they can't stay home either. They live in Zone 1 which is where all the terror attacks happened. They have to get out of there, but they can't take busses or subways. So they'll have to walk from central London to the country side. But everywhere they turn there has been boombs going off. I don't know how's it going for them now, but at least they're alive.

[titan9]

Wow, that is so terrible what happened. I'll definitely be praying for everyone in that area. It's just a shame that there are people that crazy who would actually take innocent lives like that to get their way. I say "get their way" because I hear that one of the radical Muslim groups is behind this. I know some really good Muslims and this just gives that religion a bad name. It's just so awful. :(

[Trimontana]

I was with Mila at Russell Square , wher the bus exploded, as soon as we knew we closed the shop and we walked there cause its just 10 minutes from here. Everyone was on silence on the streets, can y'all image a city as London and everyone was on silence and sad. I have never seen London like that.
Anyway, media here wont say the real amount of killed victims. Newspapers and Tv are using what its called "White Images", thats mean the softest images of the explotions. Thats why i am watching CNN+ Spain, they are showing everything, its just so dramatic. Poor people i can image those are still on the underground trains waiting to be rescue. God help them and the souls of the killed people.

[JulieCitySlicker]

Thats horrible :( I wish this crap would end,they aren't gaining a thing by doing it :mad:

[Dogstar]

I will indeed pray for those who lost their lives and their families. You take care, too, Gabi. I'm glad you are safe. :hugs:

[Trimontana]

I will indeed pray for those who lost their lives and their families. You take care, too, Gabi. I'm glad you are safe. :hugs:

Thanks Kerri :hugs: I closed the shop as soon as we knew was going on. We saw like 20 ambulances passing by and loads of police cars too. Theres no tube or buses so maybe tomorrow we cant open the shop either but we are fine, thanks God.

[Dogstar]

I was just watching this on the news again :(. I don't understand why people think violence is a means to an end. It makes no sense. I'm worried about other Londoners I know on other boards. One board I can't get on, and the others haven't checked in yet. I'm hoping and praying they are OK, too.

[Trimontana]

Kerri, you will see everyone you know is fine.

[Dogstar]

I hope so. :hugs: I thought of you right away because I know how close you are to all of that. I'm so glad you posted as soon as you could!

[Trimontana]

Thanks again my darling :hugs:

[JulieCitySlicker]

I'm glad that your alright to Gabi :hugs:
I have a friend in England,I'm not sure how close she is to London,I should email her.

[Chase]

We all pray for those in London. We, as Americans, know this kind of pain. The people of London, are like New Yorkers. They'll recover. I have no pity for these sick Islamic terrorists who are now going to feel the wrath of the British... along with the Americans. Provoking the two most powerful militaries in the world is going to destroy their cause.

[creedsister]

Thats horrible :( I wish this crap would end,they aren't gaining a thing by doing it :mad:
They know that girlfriend they do it because they like to do it plan and simple... But lets keep a praying for,em

[creedsister]

I'm glad that your alright to Gabi :hugs:
I have a friend in England,I'm not sure how close she is to London,I should email her.
Me2 Oh Da Goodness da Gabs ALIVE HUGS :hugs: :hugs: :hugs: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: Da Gabs

[Trimontana]

Me2 Oh Da Goodness da Gabs ALIVE HUGS :hugs: :hugs: :hugs: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: Da Gabs
I have to say you put an smile on my face in this sad day SIS :hugs: :kiss: :hugs: Love ya ;)

[creedsister]

:jam: :jam: :jam Yes No Bombers Get Da Gabs !!! Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa They Cant Get Passed Sis ;)

[Trimontana]

:jam: :jam: :jam Yes No Bombers Get Da Gabs !!! Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa They Cant Get Passed Sis ;)
LOL :D :hugs: :hugs: :kiss: :kiss:

[creedsister]

:d

[Trimontana]

i just knew now, one of the victims today here is a girl whos a cousin of one of the board members at papa roach's. she was sent here as a graduation present from The Usa. So i feel veru sorry tourists and in this case someone from a country i really love has been killed. i will pray for this girl today and for her family. thats even more sad now.

[creedsister]

:( Not good Gabs Not Good :hugs:

[Dogstar]

That is so sad, Gabi :(. I'm having a hard time being in a good mood with what has happened in London. It's just wrong.

[hayley]

Oh Gabi, I'm so glad you're safe and sound. Phewf. :hugs: I thought of you as soon as I heard.

I'm still shocked, today is a very miserable day for everyone. The BBC Network was broadcast all over New Zealand at about 9.30pm lastnight. I watched both the BBC, CNN, and the Australian News Channel to keep updated until 3am this morning. When I think of the enormity of what has happened, it's overwhelming and this has really, really upset me.

They showed a man being brought out of an ambulance, who was receiving CPR from an ambulance officer. This was honestly the worst thing I have ever, ever seen. I can't get the image out of my head, .... he was burnt all over his body, he was limp, and it looked like he was going to die. The woman just kept pumping and pumping his chest, it was so horrific. I have never seen real life CPR before, it was the worst thing I have ever seen.

The guy is alive though, apparantly my mum heard it on BBC. I'm so glad he's alive but even so, I still can't get the image of him being pumped and pumped and pumped out of my head, I will remember this for a very long time.

The pictures of the double decker bus is just devestating, it's amazing the way the sides have just flopped over. So terrible.

My thoughts and deepest sympathys go out to the family of those who have died, and the survivors who have to live with this. :( I feel so terrible, I don't know why this has hit me so hard, I guess it's just the power that terrorists have over the whole world ......... it's sick. No words can describe it.

[aussiecreeder]

words can't really describe such an event. 24 hours earlier london is overjoyed at winning the bid to the 2012 olympic games. then a co-ordinated terrorist attack (seemingly another one from al quaida) brings the city to a standstill. there are always thousands of australians living and working in london at any given time. i've got cousins travelling around europe and they were in london although i'm not sure if any are still there. i sure hope none of them were there...... :(

[hayley]

Oh gosh, that's horrible I hope they are okay .. I bet it's still pretty hard to get in contact with them right now, the phone lines are still pretty jammed as far as I know.

Amazing story; My boss at work has a brother who lives in the heart of London city, he was going to catch the tube train like he did every morning, but he was running late from a big night before, he slept in, missed his train. He would have been seriously injured, if not dead if he had of caught that train.

Amazing.

[aussiecreeder]

Oh gosh, that's horrible I hope they are okay .. I bet it's still pretty hard to get in contact with them right now, the phone lines are still pretty jammed as far as I know.

Amazing story; My boss at work has a brother who lives in the heart of London city, he was going to catch the tube train like he did every morning, but he was running late from a big night before, he slept in, missed his train. He would have been seriously injured, if not dead if he had of caught that train.

Amazing.


wow! :eek: thats just like after 9/11 there were stories like that of people who were late or sick. being late saved them almost certain death.......
does anyone know if a terrorist group has claimed responsblity yet? i heard last night many had claimed responslibity (as they always do :rolleyes: ) but this was organised to hit so many targets in such a short time.

[Ana4Stapp]

I m sad about the attack terrorist in London... these attacks are the most terrible and coward thing that could be happen... :(
and after it, the whole world is in suspense...

But I liked to hear that our Gabi is ok! Thanks' God! :hugs:

[Ana4Stapp]

.

Amazing story; My boss at work has a brother who lives in the heart of London city, he was going to catch the tube train like he did every morning, but he was running late from a big night before, he slept in, missed his train. He would have been seriously injured, if not dead if he had of caught that train.

Amazing.

This is one of the life's mistery we cant understand...humm maybe it's easy... it's God. ;)

[hayley]

Hmmm I don't know if I beleive in God .... what about those people that died? why didn't he keep them alive aswell? :(

[Trimontana]

Oh Guys how loved and protected y'all are making me feel. I use to think that if i leave this world noone would think about my lost but i was wrong. Love y'all truly guys :hugs: :kiss: :hugs: :kiss: .
I a listening to a Spanish radio station and hearing people saying this is sad; we all need to pray for this situation to change. We need to believe in God and ask him for sorry and help.
Pray for all the people that lost their lives today and in past terrorist actions.
GabiXXX

[Trimontana]

Hmmm I don't know if I beleive in God .... what about those people that died? why didn't he keep them alive aswell? :(
Hayley i know is difficult to believe in God when these things happens. I lost my mom after 3 years of sickness...and i can say that i praid to God for her, God kept her for 3 years close to me before she left and i can say God heard me Hayley. Doctors told me my mom had between 3 and 6 months ...and she lived for 3 years baby. Our time to go wont be change for human beings, not for you not for me. Noone should lose their faith, opposite make it stronger.
Sometimes pray and speak to God helps you to understand things...try it.
Gabixxx

[Ana4Stapp]

Hmmm I don't know if I beleive in God .... what about those people that died? why didn't he keep them alive aswell? :(

Well, I'm not discussing religion, cause im not a very religious person, but I feel like it was not the "hour" to these people that survived it..well I dont know...maybe it's God...maybe I am wrong.. :dunno:

[JulieCitySlicker]

I hope that everyone's friends and family members that are in London are alright(aussie,Gabi,and anyone else that has friends and family there) I will be praying for you and everyone else affected by this senseless act.

God doesn't want bad things to happen to us because he loves us to much,so please don't think He sees this and doesn't care,because he does :hugs: :hugs: :hugs:

[Dogstar]

I'm trying to take comfort in the good that people can do, like making beautiful music. I'm listening to Jeff Buckley right now.

[hayley]

Well, I'm not discussing religion, cause im not a very religious person, but I feel like it was not the "hour" to these people that survived it..well I dont know...maybe it's God...maybe I am wrong.. :dunno:
i'm not discussing it either, but when things like this happen it really makes me wonder. if you beleive in god, that's fine, i don't think i do, but i beleive in fate. i just don't understand if god was good, people would not die in such devestating ways, god wouldn't let people like these terrorists kill these innocent people ... doesn't he have all power over the world? ... can't he control these things from happening, if he was the 'highest' being?

i'm sorry, i've just never understood god

[hayley]

hey sorry everyone! i won't turn this into a conversation about god, sorry sorry. :)

[JulieCitySlicker]

i'm not discussing it either, but when things like this happen it really makes me wonder. if you beleive in god, that's fine, i don't think i do, but i beleive in fate. i just don't understand if god was good, people would not die in such devestating ways, god wouldn't let people like these terrorists kill these innocent people ... doesn't he have all power over the world? ... can't he control these things from happening, if he was the 'highest' being?

i'm sorry, i've just never understood god
Yes,God could have stopped it,but he also gives us free will to make our own decisions,it is up to us to make the right ones and these terrorists chose to make the wrong one.

[The Lithium]

I have no pity for these sick Islamic terrorists who are now going to feel the wrath of the British... along with the Americans. Provoking the two most powerful militaries in the world is going to destroy their cause.
Come on man! We all know that shit ain't never gonna happen. The more you fight them, the more they'll fight back. But the risk if you let them be is that they will see their chance and terror will grow bigger than ever. But you Americans who still believe that what Bush does is the right thing have to realize that you can't win over terrorists. Suuure, Bush can bomb half the earth and kill 'em all so you can watch cable-TV and go safely to bed. But they will recover and after that they will be even MORE pissed.

None of this would have happened if Bush hadn't gone into Iraq. THAT was terror! Bush is terror! Killing innocent people for what? Usama? Naah, he has nothing to do with Iraq. Saddam? Yeah, well, maybe, but why won't they just send an elite group to take him out and no innocent people will be killed? But if I remember this right Bush's reason for going into Iraq was because they had Weapons Of Massdestroction. Tourned out later they hadn't. Bush was then pretty confused... Then he realized he could say to the media that he was there to save the people of Iraq. Yeah, that sounds good. Only that he had already KILLED the people of Iraq. And the once still alive... They didn't want any help from the man who had killed their familys and friends. I can't help thinking that maybe Bush wanted oil from Iraq...

Anyway... They sould've catched Usama, bad move Bush... Bad move...

[JulieCitySlicker]

^^^ I'm choosing to refrain from commenting on that one,because I'm not about to go off tonight,not in the mood :ignore:

[The Lithium]

I hate terrorists just as bad as you do. But I hate Bush too.

[Ana4Stapp]

I hate Bush too! :mad: After Bush invaded Iraq, terrorism is increasing all over the world... and he still continues to poses being the Great good guy... :mad:

[JulieCitySlicker]

Ya well, I've heard that before so tell me something new :rolleyes:

[JulieCitySlicker]

I think its funny how whenever something bad happens,everyone is quick to point fingers and then the group that causes it all get overlooked and ignored :rolleyes:

[Ana4Stapp]

I think its funny how whenever something bad happens,everyone is quick to point fingers and then the group that causes it all get overlooked and ignored :rolleyes:


No its not funny, cause no one here its pointing fingers to an innocent, it just the opposite, cause no one can deny that Bush foreign policy is an error: US and others countries like England and Spain supported war in Iraq, so their action is provoking a reaction...a bad reaction, of course it is WRONG AND TERRIBLE ... :( but its the true.
And of course terrorism is stupid and coward, made by groups that are full of ignorant extremists using barbarous methods of cruelty in the name of faith?!! :mad1:

[Dogstar]

Look, people, let's not turn this into a political debate, OK? There's been enough fighting and bloodshed in the world today. Can we just leave the politics out of it for now and send some healing vibes and prayers or however you want to help in your way over to England? Thanks.

[Chase]

Come on man! We all know that shit ain't never gonna happen. The more you fight them, the more they'll fight back. But the risk if you let them be is that they will see their chance and terror will grow bigger than ever. But you Americans who still believe that what Bush does is the right thing have to realize that you can't win over terrorists. Suuure, Bush can bomb half the earth and kill 'em all so you can watch cable-TV and go safely to bed. But they will recover and after that they will be even MORE pissed.

None of this would have happened if Bush hadn't gone into Iraq. THAT was terror! Bush is terror! Killing innocent people for what? Usama? Naah, he has nothing to do with Iraq. Saddam? Yeah, well, maybe, but why won't they just send an elite group to take him out and no innocent people will be killed? But if I remember this right Bush's reason for going into Iraq was because they had Weapons Of Massdestroction. Tourned out later they hadn't. Bush was then pretty confused... Then he realized he could say to the media that he was there to save the people of Iraq. Yeah, that sounds good. Only that he had already KILLED the people of Iraq. And the once still alive... They didn't want any help from the man who had killed their familys and friends. I can't help thinking that maybe Bush wanted oil from Iraq...

Anyway... They sould've catched Usama, bad move Bush... Bad move...

See, this is what's wrong with Europe. They would rather sit and blame the innocent victims instead of the attackers. What about all of the embassy attacks that happened before the War in Iraq? You make it sound like terrorism is a newly developed tactic that came into play to combat Americans in Iraq! This has happened far before the War in Iraq. Stop trying to justify this barbaric attack on innocent civilians. At least America and Britain actually stand up to Islamo fascism. I hate to break it to you, but you're just as much of a target because of Sweden and Europe's rapid increase of secularism. You want to talk about Iraq? Well, let's talk about Iraq.

Tell me, why was it alright for Saddam Hussein to gas thousands of innocent Kurds and Shia? Why was it alright for Saddam Hussein for fund Palestinian terror organizations? Why was it alright for Saddam Hussein to rip off the UN's Oil for Food program to fund his lavish lifestyle? Why was it alright for Saddam's sons to order innocent people into gas chambers and little girls into rape/torture chambers? Why was it alright for Saddam's sons to torture innocent unsuccessful Olympic athletes? Why was it alright for Saddam Hussein to repeatedly BREAK UN resolutions towards his weapons programs. Not once, not twice, but about sixteen of those resolutions were broken. If you had your way, Saddam Hussein would still be doing all of these things. It's a proven FACT that Saddam Hussein funded terrorism and had ties to Yasser Arafat's terror groups. Since day 1, Bush has asserted the Saddam's crimes against humanity and I find it despicable that Europe would rather see the Iraqis be deprived of freedom just to see the United States be unsuccessful. You think this is a lost cause? Well, look at what good it has done. 60% of Iraqis went to vote for their government despite the threats of terrorists. We don't consistently get that percentage here in the U.S. Since then, Afghanistan, Ukraine, Georgia, Lebanon, and Egypt have all advoted democracy along the lines of the Iraqis. These were former Soviet and Islamo fascist regimes who were deprived the freedoms that we, as human beings are entitled to. You think Bush is a liar? Well then, Bill Clinton, John Kerry, the leaders of Russia, Great Britain, Australia, Italy, Spain, Japan, Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria, South Korea, the Philippines, and countless other nations must be liars because they ALL believed that Saddam Hussein was at least a threat to stability in the Middle East. We don't want Iraq's oil. We can get oil in our own country. Following the first Gulf War, we had access to ALL of Kuwait's oil and we could've easily controlled all of that oil. Who controls that oil? It sure as hell isn't the United States. It's the Kuwaitis who control their own oil. Democracy is the anti venom to terrorism. We're still on the hunt for Osama Bin Laden... and in time, he will be brought to justice. At least my countrymen are actually doing something to try and thwart these terrorists. That's a lot more than anyone can say about Sweden, France, Germany, and the rest of Europe (with the exception of Great Britain, Italy, Spain, and Russia). These Islamic terrorists are sick and they love the fact that they have been able to warped European minds into thinking that everything is America's fault. The truth is that they want to attack every non Arab nation they can. The United States has nothing to do with their agression against the Hindus of India. The United States has nothing to do with their agression against the Catholics of the Philippines. They would like the world to sit there and believe them when they claim that the U.S. and Israel are the reason why they blow up and behead innocent men, women, and children. The United States has saved Europe from the Nazis, the world from the spead of Communism, and they sure as hell will save the world (by themselves if they must) from Islamic terrorists. It's sad when you call Bush a terrorist for taking outa brutal, mass murdering, tyrant. It's sad when you can't even condemn Al Qaeda for blowing up innocent Londoners who were still celebrating their confirmation of being the city to host the 2012 Olympics. Utterly sad.

[JulieCitySlicker]

Look, people, let's not turn this into a political debate, OK? There's been enough fighting and bloodshed in the world today. Can we just leave the politics out of it for now and send some healing vibes and prayers or however you want to help in your way over to England? Thanks.
Alright,sorry Kerri :o

[aussiecreeder]

I agree with Kerri enough of turning this into a political discussion. These issues can be discussed at a later date. Fathers have lost wives, mothers have lost sons, and well you get the picture. How 'bout thinking of the human toll before starting Debating 101? I'll answer Hayley's query however because its not political and its someone wanting to really know. This is a very difficult topic and I could discuss this area of theology for a long time. You don't believe and thats fine but I'll give my opinion on the matter. :)

If God could not stop these terrorists from taking innocent life then he would cease to be God by definition. That means he/she/it (whatever one believes) had to allow this to happen. Why perhaps we will never know. Assuming there is a God ( I think there has to be otherwise life itself makes no sense. Fate doesn't really make sense to me because who controls the fate?) then this being must have infinite intelligence, power and be outside the forces of time, matter and space. This for me leaves three possiblities. This being either somehow brought us into being and just left us here to our own devices which is known as Deism.

Or perhaps this being ( maybe more than one but for this topic I'll stick to the basic idea of the Christian/Judaism/Islamic God) is some sort of sadistic monster who enjoys watching mankind stuff up century after century. The third possiblity and the one I believe is that God is a completely good being and wants the best for mankind. However we are not robots and then the element of free will comes into it. In times like this its very hard to trust that God is even there, I'm not disputing that for a single second. However our minds must be tiny in comparison and we don't know the full picuture. Perhaps its worth remembering the good that is lavished upon mankind day after day. God is largely neglected by mankind yet the sun never ceases to warm the earth. You live in a first world country so 99% of people in NZ never have to worry about where their next meal is coming from and most have us have family and friends that make our lives so much better.

I'll be completely honest and say I REALLY struggle with some of these areas but the above is my belief. Perhaps we'll always think differently on these areas and that is completely cool. :) You wanted to know so I hope my explantation wasen't too technical.

[Ana4Stapp]

Ok Terri, I understand the moment and all the sadness involved in it, even though we have also to understand that politic is present all the time in our lives...and its definitely guiding our terrible present time. :(

[The Lithium]

Tell me, why was it alright for Saddam Hussein to gas thousands of innocent Kurds and Shia? Why was it alright for Saddam Hussein for fund Palestinian terror organizations? Why was it alright for Saddam Hussein to rip off the UN's Oil for Food program to fund his lavish lifestyle? Why was it alright for Saddam's sons to order innocent people into gas chambers and little girls into rape/torture chambers? Why was it alright for Saddam's sons to torture innocent unsuccessful Olympic athletes? Why was it alright for Saddam Hussein to repeatedly BREAK UN resolutions towards his weapons programs.
My favorit "political band" is by far System Of A Down. I'll quote pretty many of their lyrics in this post, 'cause they stand for what I stand for. I wanted to start with this.

"You and me will all go down in history with a sad statue of liberty and a generation that didn't agree" --System Of A Down

I'm not saying it was alright. But you tell me why it was right for America to go into Iraq and kill innocent people, just like Saddam already did? Why was it alright for US to torture innocent people of Iraq, just like Saddam already did? Why was it alright for the US to go into Iraq without UN's permission and break the "laws" of UN, just like Saddam did?

I'm just saying that if they wanted to take Saddam out they should've sent an elite group instead of sending poor Americans.

"Why don't presidents fight the war, why do they always send the poor?" --System Of A Down

Since day 1, Bush has asserted the Saddam's crimes against humanity and I find it despicable that Europe would rather see the Iraqis be deprived of freedom just to see the United States be unsuccessful.
Please, this is not about wanting US to be unsesuccessful, this is about that Bush is so full of crap that he's drowning in it!

"You depend on our protection, yet you feed us lies from the table cloth" --System Of A Down

You think Bush is a liar?
Well, yeah... Sorta... But the word I'm looking for is more like asshole!

We're still on the hunt for Osama Bin Laden... and in time, he will be brought to justice. At least my countrymen are actually doing something to try and thwart these terrorists. That's a lot more than anyone can say about Sweden, France, Germany, and the rest of Europe
(with the exception of Great Britain, Italy, Spain, and Russia).
You have such a romantic point of view of all this. Haven't you seen the news? Horrible, horrible pictures! You should go down there and fight as a soldier yourself, maybe you'd change your mind.

Actually Denmark have soilders in Iraq too. But you shouldn't be fooled by that. Denmark is the "Bush-friendliest" country in Europe. Still 9 out of 10 hates him. And I've never met a single person from Sweden who thinks Bush does a good job. Don't be fooled by what the "leaders" decide. Doesn't have to mean the people likes it.

"4000 hungry children, leave us per hour from starvation, while billions are spent on bombs, creating death showers" --System Of A Down

The United States has saved Europe from the Nazis, the world from the spead of Communism, and they sure as hell will save the world (by themselves if they must) from Islamic terrorists.
Killing in the name of bullshit!! Yes, you saved our asses from Nazis and Communism, thanks for that. I'm actually truely glad you did that. But Israeli for example. Did you ever ask if they wanted to be "saved"? Or did you just want it your way? Well, most of us Europeans believes you just want things do be your way... When your acting like some kind of Jesus.

It's sad when you call Bush a terrorist for taking outa brutal, mass murdering, tyrant. It's sad when you can't even condemn Al Qaeda for blowing up innocent Londoners who were still celebrating their confirmation of being the city to host the 2012 Olympics. Utterly sad.
Hey, I suffer with the people of London! I have friends who lives there! I'm not a cold blooded terrorist just because I dislike Bush! I love London and personally I feel a little attacked myself 'cause I've been to Lonodon so much and as I said have friends in London and middle England.

"The remainder is an unjustifiable, egotistical power struggle
At the expense of the American dream, of the American dream
Of the American...

We don't give a fuck about your world
With all your global profits
And all your jeweled pearls
We don't give a fuck about your world
Right now

There is no flag that is large enough
To hide the shame of a man in cuffs" --System Of A Down

[The Lithium]

I hate Bush too! :mad: After Bush invaded Iraq, terrorism is increasing all over the world... and he still continues to poses being the Great good guy... :mad:

No its not funny, cause no one here its pointing fingers to an innocent, it just the opposite, cause no one can deny that Bush foreign policy is an error: US and others countries like England and Spain supported war in Iraq, so their action is provoking a reaction...a bad reaction, of course it is WRONG AND TERRIBLE ... :( but its the true.
And of course terrorism is stupid and coward, made by groups that are full of ignorant extremists using barbarous methods of cruelty in the name of faith?!! :mad1:
Thank you!!

[Chase]

Wow, and you still refrain from putting any blame on the people that did this. Perhaps the most disgraceful thing you did was copy and paste lines from a sadly misguided, anti-American band's (System of a Down) current single. C'mon, think for yourself now and stop following the trend. The United States went into Iraq with one thing on their mind: Getting Saddam Hussein out of power. We weren't at war with the Iraqi people, we were at war with Saddam Hussein and his atrocities. The United States has not intentionally attacked innocent people, unlike Saddam. Our military offensives in that country have been aimed at former Saddam loyalists and terrorists. Think before you accuse my nation of killing thousand of innocent civilians intentionally. People die in war... and the enemy is the one who is beheading innocent Iraqis (and foreigners) and detonating car bombs. Like I said, if you and the majority of Europe had their way... Saddam Hussein would still be living in his palaces grooming his equally sadistic sons to take over the nation of Iraq. The United Nations doesn't run any nation's foreign policy. The United States created the damn United Nations for crying out loud. We don't ask for the permission of Kofi Anan to protect ourselves. I have friends who are fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq. The only reason why I'm not there is because I'm a college student who is studying to become involved in the government. We couldn't take out Saddam Hussein by only using elite forces because that nation would be in even more chaos than it already is in. You need a lot of military presence to quell those who are against freedom for the innocent Iraqis. Bush didn't send only the "poor" Americans to fight. Many Americans (like many of my friends) joined the military AFTER 9/11 because they wanted to protect their country. The majority of the men and women in the military are passionate about protecting the U.S. and the rest of the world from terrorism. So, Bush is a "liar" and an "asshole" for taking out a tyrannical, genocidal, dictator? Wow, and to think that United States did that 60 years ago in Europe... go figure. It's just odd how Europeans went from proud people during World War II to a bunch of nations that are intimidated by Islamic terrorists in the present. I love Europe and I love Europeans. My family immigrated to America from Sicily and Germany. However, I don't understand how and why European-Americans are so different from their European counterparts. The United States will still shed it's blood to protect Europe, it's just sad that Europeans wouldn't do the same. God bless Great Britain.

[Ana4Stapp]

Thank you!!

You're welcome!

But i think some people just need to learn more about History here... :rolleyes:


And of course The United States has not intentionally attacked innocent people...

No way...never....

But USA governor (not the american people or soldiers) protecting countries after the 2ndWW ?!!!! Fighting for freedom???!!!
How about invading others and supporting dictatorship governments ???!!! :rolleyes:

[JulieCitySlicker]

I think this thread should be close,before it gets out of hand ;)

[Dogstar]

I'm keeping an eye on it, Julie :D...

[Chase]

Shut the thread if you want... but I'm going to keep defending my country as long as people keep attacking it on here with nonsense. :cool:

[Ana4Stapp]

Just to clarify things here: Im not ofending anyone here, not ofending americans--cause i have friends who are americans, by the way I made a good friend from USA,here on CreedFeed and also have relatives that live in USA. So this is not my point.

All that started when Lithium --and I agreed with that and posted a reply to it--said that terrorism in London is an answer to Bush's and Blair foreign policy.Period. This is our opinion. We have the right to say it. Of course, the other member have the samer right to disagree with that. We disagreed, argued, but not ofended or used name-callings.

Also this is totally different from insulting american people or any member here. We are not doing that. This is our opinion and we wanted to express it. Politics are present in our lives all the time.We have to face it and not avoid it like it was a distant thing , cause it certainly is defining our day- after -day but if some members just prefer to ignore this, fine..
Shut the thread if you want... but I'm going to keep defending my country as long as people keep attacking it on here with nonsense.

-We are not attacking your country--guy, we are expressing our opinions about US government. ok? ;) and i'll keep defending the right to say it.


If someone want to close the thread...;)

[Chase]

Well it is offensive when someone sits there and calls our President a "liar" and an "asshole" for taking out the "Butcher of Baghad." Look, I understand that it's the cool thing to hate the President and not know why you hate him. If you think Bush is a "liar" for believing that Saddam Hussein was a threat... then the leaders of Russia, Britain, Italy, Spain, the Philippines, South Korea, Hungary, Bulgaria, Poland, the Honduras, Denmark, and Australia are also "liars" because they believed they believed the same thing as Bush. My point is, that you guys won't condemn the people that actually did this attack... instead... it's "Bush is an asshole, it's his fault!" That is offensive. How are you advocating free speech by wanting this thread closed? Look, I don't sit there and make fun of Brazil's rampant crime rate or Sweden's inability to accomplish anything on the international level. If you're going to criticize the United States aimlessly, then you can expect a rebuttal from me everytime. That's how I roll. ;) Lith and Ana... I love you both... but c'mon... you have to understand that I'm a history major with a minor in political science. I love to debate. :D

[Dogstar]

Well, there are plenty of political threads in which to debate. This was a thread that was started to let us know what happened from someone who lives there and to let us know that she was OK.

These *debates* always degenerate into people pretty much resorting to name-calling, and that is not tolerated here, OK? People are very passionate about their political beliefs and they don't really seem to tolerate anything they disagree with. Instead, they typically resort to insulting the people who disagree with them along with those people's beliefs.

There's a reason people avoid subjects such as politics and religion IRL. It's probably a good idea to keep the politics to the political threads here as well. Thank you.

[Ana4Stapp]

Well it is offensive when someone sits there and calls our President a "liar" and an "asshole" for taking out the "Butcher of Baghad." Look, I understand that it's the cool thing to hate the President and not know why you hate him. If you think Bush is a "liar" for believing that Saddam Hussein was a threat... then the leaders of Russia, Britain, Italy, Spain, the Philippines, South Korea, Hungary, Bulgaria, Poland, the Honduras, Denmark, and Australia are also "liars" because they believed they believed the same thing as Bush. My point is, that you guys won't condemn the people that actually did this attack... instead... it's "Bush is an asshole, it's his fault!" That is offensive. How are you advocating free speech by wanting this thread closed? Look, I don't sit there and make fun of Brazil's rampant crime rate or Sweden's inability to accomplish anything on the international level. If you're going to criticize the United States aimlessly, then you can expect a rebuttal from me everytime. That's how I roll. ;) Lith and Ana... I love you both... but c'mon... you have to understand that I'm a history major with a minor in political science. I love to debate. :D

I do condemn the terrorists... And of course terrorism is stupid and coward, made by groups that are full of ignorant extremists using barbarous methods of cruelty in the name of faith?!! :mad1:

I will defend the right of express my opinion--also your opinion to do the same-- in any case, but if some mod wants to close the thread, what can I do? -I mean, they are the :D mods...

I think all the problem is related to people that dont "understand" politics like some natural and a matter that makes part of our quotidian. A great number of people use to act like the " political analphabet" , ignoring the importance of it.

Of course, my country,your country,Lith's country--all of them are full of mistakes made by bad politicians, I'm not denying it.

I could say I hate my own president--(wich is not he case, but I hated a lot of them--)Im not ofending--Im voicing my opinion saying I hate Bush or Blair or Putin...cause I hate their governments--not their countries...not the people...

I'm a History teacher, so it's easy to understand that I love to talk about politics and to debate it... :D


And Chase--I love you too. ;)

[JulieCitySlicker]

Shut the thread if you want... but I'm going to keep defending my country as long as people keep attacking it on here with nonsense. :cool:

I'm not against defending our country ;) I was just afraid of an all out verbal war starting :eek:

[uncertaindrumer]

Geez... So political.

First, Chase, no one is attacking the U.S. Most people outside of the U.S. KNOW that the majority of people disagree with the war, and disagree with Bush (and they do--that's a fact). They are disagreeing with his foreign policy, not the country itself.

Second, no one is doubting that sick extremist Islamic Jihadists (if that is even a word) did the killing. The argument is that this war in the middle east--like all wars--BREEDS stuff like this. NOTHING good comes out of wars. They create hate, destruction, terrorism, the whole shebang. But it was still sick Islamic terrorists who did this. No one denies that.

Third, has the world beceome so polarized, and so disunited, that we can't even give a heartfelt "We're with you" to England without an argument about politics? If the world is that shattered, the terrorists are going to have a huge advantage, because not only does terrorism feed on war and conflict, but it feeds on disunion and confusion.

Finally: Good luck England. I hope you rebuild faster than possible and I hope you hunt down the phsycopaths quickly. Don't lose heart. We are all on your side.

[Anna1011]

shit i just realised some guys we met at download live down london and i dont have any way to contact them i so hope they are all ok.

[Ana4Stapp]

Geez... So political.

First, Chase, no one is attacking the U.S. Most people outside of the U.S. KNOW that the majority of people disagree with the war, and disagree with Bush (and they do--that's a fact). They are disagreeing with his foreign policy, not the country itself.

Second, no one is doubting that sick extremist Islamic Jihadists (if that is even a word) did the killing. The argument is that this war in the middle east--like all wars--BREEDS stuff like this. NOTHING good comes out of wars. They create hate, destruction, terrorism, the whole shebang. But it was still sick Islamic terrorists who did this. No one denies that.
.


Thank you, Stephen! ;) You got my point! :)

[Chase]

Everyone in this thread has given their support to the British people. However, my point is when someone would rather sit there and blame Bush for these cold blooded murders. Whether you like him or not, that is absurd in every way. Great Britain CHOSE to support the United States. The United States never forced them to do anything. America has enough military strength to fight 5 wars at once if it came to that. I understand that people don't agree with the foreign policy of Great Britain and the United States. I understand that people think the world is better with Saddam Hussein gassing his own people. But what I DO NOT understand is why the same nations that were threatened by men like Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussoulini, and Josef Stalin have such a tolerant positions regarding modern genocidal dictators (who ARE threats to their regions). Then, to top it off, the pretend like the United States has never done anything to benefit the world... when in reality the United States helped Europe from the brutality of these monsters twice within the last 60 years. My grandfather, like so many others, fought to SAVE Europe. And when the U.S. needs European support, they face such harsh criticism of morons who equate Bush to Hitler, the U.S. to Nazis. We have been there to support Europe wholeheartedly since World War I... and like I said, we will always be there for them. Hell, we'd even protect Chirac's France. I'm debating these tainted opinions because it's obvious how bad the European press portrays the United States. You guys think Bush is a man who thinks he's enlightened by God to conquer the world and it's oil supplies. That's what you guys sound like. Instead, Bush has liberated Afghanistan and Iraq... and influence a bunch of other former dictatorships to actually provide common freedoms to their people. It's just hilarious to hear the European opinions of our government. The majority of this country chose Bush to continue to lead us... and for good reason to. We don't want to be pacifists when it comes to handeling terrorism, we don't want to ask for France's permission to defend ourselves, and we WANT a leader who is straight to the point. We had Mr. Politician Bill Clinton for 8 years... too much politics allows terrorists to operate easier. England invited tons of extreme Muslims into their country and Spain did the same. The United States did that prior to 9/11. Enough of being politically correct and understand that the United States and Britain have an offensive foreign policy for a reason. We don't want to keep dealing with these attacks in our countries... we want to take care of business in the Middle East. ;)

[Dogstar]

Get over it. Not everyone is going to be a rah-rah flag-waving Bush supporter. Understand that people have their opinions and shouldn't be friggin insulted for them just because you disagree with them. You're repeating yourself. We all got where you stand.

[Trimontana]

England invited tons of extreme Muslims into their country and Spain did the same. The United States did that prior to 9/11. Enough of being politically correct and understand that the United States and Britain have an offensive foreign policy for a reason. We don't want to keep dealing with these attacks in our countries... we want to take care of business in the Middle East. ;)

Chase wait a second in here. I am not gonna say anything about what you have mentioned in your post cause i think you got a point in here. I dunno about American history cause first of all i am not American and secondly i have never studied American History. I am gonna tell ya something, as a good Spanish i know my country and about its history. Spain NEVER and i repeat never invited any Muslim into our country. I invite you to read this link
History of Spain: Catholic Kings (http://www.spanish-fiestas.com/history/catholic-kings.htm).The Catholic Kings expelled every single person that weren't catholic and we never had Muslim people like a part of the Spanish society; all the way around we conquered whole countries to make the Spanish Kingdom even bigger cause once Spain was the Big Kingdom in the whole world. And please you never forget that America was discovered by Spain, and if today America is as strong as it is its cause Spain gave you a independence.
Spain as an old country with a lot of History has been very protected with what it though it was its. In Spain, and i know this is gonna sounds racist, for a long long time we never knew what it was to have a black, morrocans, indian etc... like part of the society like for example England or America, or maybe France that have loads of Morrocans living there. And even now its very weird.
So dont take like a critic or something against you Chase. I just wanted to leave it clear enough.
Thanks
Gabixxx

[uncertaindrumer]

Chase, Saddam Hussein was NOT a threat to any of us. Bush tried to say that and he has obviously been shown to have been lying.

You say you can't understand why people think Saddam Hussein gassing his own people was a good thing. Well, I also don't think China denying religious freedom is a good thing, or North Korea being communist, or Iran being oppressive. Have we invaded THOSE countries yet?

Next, let's invade France, because French people are all-around jerks. They don't like us and we don't like them. LET'S KILL EM ALL!

In case you were wondering, this is other what people think of when they think of Bush. Bordering-on-insane warmongering.

As a final point; Hussein was evil indeed. But does that gives us a right to invade and kill the people of Iraq? Because that is what we did.

[Chase]

Saddam Hussein was a definate threat to stability in the Middle East. His meddling in the Palestine/Israel affair was a major reason as to why so many suicide bombers blew up innocent Israelis. His sons were going to take over Iraq. It is a proven fact that his sons were just as bad as Saddam. You can't sit there and tell me that Uday and Qusay were going to take Iraq, turn it into paradise, and put a peace sign on their flag. Saddam had plenty of time to expel his weapons prior to the U.S. led invasion. He's not a stupid man. He's not going to put giant signs that say "WMDs HERE!" Since the first Gulf War, he broke 16 U.N. resolutions regarding his weapons program. He also committed crimes against humanity on numerous occasions. Saddam Hussein was a weapon of mass destruction... he showed that. Since you obviously have a problem with the United States taking out this murderer... you must've been so distraught when Bill Clinton sent troops into Kosovo to oust Slobadan Milosevic, into Somalia, into Haiti, and air raids on Baghdad. Bill Clinton's foreign policy was on the same page as Bush. John Kerry said that Saddam's weapons were a threat, so did Ted Kennedy, and Bill Clinton. So Bush uses diplomacy with North Korea, China, and Iran... and you have a problem with that? Don't speak so soon about us not having a military conflict with Iran... especially after the man they just elected was a captor in the Iran Hostage Crisis.

We didn't invade "to kill the people of Iraq." We invaded Saddam's Iraq to take out the Baath Party fascist regime. Plain and simple. No one has invented weapons that magically avoid civilians yet. There's only one group in Iraq who is there to kill Iraqis and that's Al-Zarqawi's terror gang. The people the coalition forces have ever targeted in Iraq have been Baath Party officials, Saddam's military, Al Qaeda in Iraq (and other minor insurgent groups), and Al Sadr's militia.

Trimontana... I believe everything you said regarding the history of Spain and it's royalty. However, I believe the only mistake that Spaniards made recently was electing a socialist, anti-American (war) government to lead them following the Madrid train bombings. I don't care that the government is socialist or anti-American... but the fact that the government they elected has a tolerant stance on terror... especially after they were attacked.

And if Bush is a "liar" for thinking that Saddam is a threat according to uncertaindrummer... then so is John Kerry, Bill Clinton, Ted Kennedy, Al Gore, John Edwards, Vladimir Putin, Tony Blair, Silvio Berlusconi of Italy, John Howard of Australia... and the leaders of Poland, Bulgaria, Spain, South Korea, Japan, Denmark, the Philippines, Hungary, Israel, Lebanon, and Romania because all of these governments had information that backed up Bush.

[Chase]

Get over it. Not everyone is going to be a rah-rah flag-waving Bush supporter. Understand that people have their opinions and shouldn't be friggin insulted for them just because you disagree with them. You're repeating yourself. We all got where you stand.

I never said I was a big Bush supporter, first of all. So, it's okay for people on here to insult the American people by saying that we elected a "lying killer." But when it comes to Chase expressing his opinions... look out... he's a "rah-rah flag-waving Bush supporter" whose "insulting" other members for rebutting their aimless claims about how Bush is a "liar" out "for oil." I have the right to my opinion just as they have the right to say that America invaded Iraq just to kill innocent people.

I've been respectful to their opinions, but by posting this... you're trying to stir up trouble by accusing me of "insulting" other people's opinions. You might want to close this thread before people start thinking that this country called America isn't out to imperialize the world. Hurry before it's too late.

[Trimontana]

Trimontana... I believe everything you said regarding the history of Spain and it's royalty. However, I believe the only mistake that Spaniards made recently was electing a socialist, anti-American (war) government to lead them following the Madrid train bombings. I don't care that the government is socialist or anti-American... but the fact that the government they elected has a tolerant stance on terror... especially after they were attacked.


I'm actually very happy with the actual Spanish President,Mr Zapatero, i voted for him on the Spanish elections by post from London. I'm a socialist (PSOE in Spain) and i dont think being one means to be anti-American. I believe being anti-American (anti-something else) is just think in individual or particular needs. If a president just think in that way its bad for the nation and Mr Zapatero did and is doing great things for Spain. The best thing Mr Zapatero did when he was elected was take all the militars Spain had in Iraq. The previous president, Mr Aznar, was just a bastard who put Spain in a difficult situation sending Spanish navy/militars to Iraq when Spain didnt had anything to do with that business. And in my opinion, and thousand of Spanish people, the terrorism attack last year in Madrid couldnt have been happen if Mr Aznar had taken another decision about it. So its very easy talk about politic from another country you dont even know about it. I cant actually say anything about that kind of stuff about America cause its out of my knowledge.

[The Lithium]

Wow, and you still refrain from putting any blame on the people that did this. Perhaps the most disgraceful thing you did was copy and paste lines from a sadly misguided, anti-American band's (System of a Down) current single. C'mon, think for yourself now and stop following the trend.
I don't know if you're just stupid or if you can't pay attention to what people say. Did you MISS this part?

My favorit "political band" is by far System Of A Down. I'll quote pretty many of their lyrics in this post, 'cause they stand for what I stand for. I wanted to start with this.
And if you've ever listened through any of System Of A Down's album you'd notice that I've quoted VERY unknown and pretty old songs too.

The United States went into Iraq with one thing on their mind: Getting Saddam Hussein out of power. We weren't at war with the Iraqi people, we were at war with Saddam Hussein and his atrocities. The United States has not intentionally attacked innocent people, unlike Saddam. Our military offensives in that country have been aimed at former Saddam loyalists and terrorists. Think before you accuse my nation of killing thousand of innocent civilians intentionally. People die in war... and the enemy is the one who is beheading innocent Iraqis (and foreigners) and detonating car bombs.
I don't know, maybe you forgot that it was America who first gave Saddam the power! Good going boys, keep "saving" the world!

Like I said, if you and the majority of Europe had their way... Saddam Hussein would still be living in his palaces grooming his equally sadistic sons to take over the nation of Iraq. The United Nations doesn't run any nation's foreign policy.
No, if Europe would have had it OUR way from the start, Saddam wouldn't even have been in charge of Iraq.

The United States created the damn United Nations for crying out loud. We don't ask for the permission of Kofi Anan to protect ourselves.
Well, you may have created them, but you sure as hell don't give a fuck about them. You don't even pay them enough money each year! And just so you know. You're breaking a law when you don't ask for permission of UN to start war.

Bush didn't send only the "poor" Americans to fight. Many Americans (like many of my friends) joined the military AFTER 9/11 because they wanted to protect their country. The majority of the men and women in the military are passionate about protecting the U.S. and the rest of the world from terrorism.
You know... If you look at American history you'll easily see that you guys have always had big problems with uniting your nation. But then you figured. "Hey man, it's much easier to unite a nation if you have an enemy everyone's afraid of! Yeah, let's do that!!". What about the Killing Bees? Why would they JUST come to US? Your goverment has scared you so bad that you're afraid for everything! And right now your global enemy is terrorists. Hell, it should be yourselvs!

The United States will still shed it's blood to protect Europe, it's just sad that Europeans wouldn't do the same.
Because we don't like your way your thinking! And here's some of your country men whos got my back!

Besides from System Of A Down, (who has an American drummer and was formed in Californa), check this out:

-Here's a picture of System Of A Down's lead singer; Serj Tankian and Audioslave's/(Rage Against The Machine's) lead guitarist Tom Morello. Picture (http://www.axisofjustice.org/images/photo_mission_01.jpg). They've formed a political organization for justice and against war. You can tell they're not too crazy about Bush. The site is called [http://www.axisofjustice.org/]AxisOfJustice.org[/url]

-Here's a picture of Tim Commerford and Tom Morello from Audioslave/(Rage Against The Machine) doing something against Bush, I've done many times! Click here (http://www.axisofjustice.org/images/photo_donate.jpg)

-Rock Stars Against Bush, (features Dave Matthews Band and Bruce Springsteen). Click here (http://www.spacechase.net/green/rock_against_bush.htm). Here's two albums they've made: Vol 1 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0001WPSM2/ref=pd_sxp_f/102-8578412-3353756?v=glance&s=music). Vol 2 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0002IQKDQ/ref=pd_sxp_f/102-8578412-3353756?v=glance&s=music)

- Bruce Springsteen, Neil Young, R.E.M., Pearl Jam and a deep roster of other rock stars will unite for politically minded concerts this fall that will give voice to dissatisfaction with the Bush administration. (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0725-02.htm)

-Or why don't read the lyrics to Wind-Up band Atomship songs? Here's one of them called Agent Orange:

This is how you hold your American flag.
This is how you hold your American flag.
So this is how you hold your patri-fucking-otic flag.
We’re all a bunch of fucking disgraces!
Well, that'll do it for now, I could go on forever doing this... But hey, at least you got Britney Spears on your side!

[Anna1011]

you know you lots arguing aint gonna stop all thats happening, it aint gonna change whats happened and it aint gonna bring back all those that have died and stop all the families and friends hurting, so whats the point to it all?

[Ana4Stapp]

The London’s tragedy is one episode of the new face of the islamic terrorism which is determinade for a process including "democratization" and "decentralization" of their activities, what is a new challenge to the authorities all over the world.Its the “post-jihadism”. :(

If the Great Powers really want to stop the terrorism, so they need to rethink their foreign policy ans also the domestic policy, to weaken the radicalism’s appeal, because it’s certainly an attractive option to the excludent ones...

Look: People who were oppressed in the past became the oppressor at their fisrt opportunity in the future...

[Ana4Stapp]

you know you lots arguing aint gonna stop all thats happening, it aint gonna change whats happened and it aint gonna bring back all those that have died and stop all the families and friends hurting, so whats the point to it all?


And Anna, you are right about the dead ones in London and I'm sorry for them, but the point is maybe arguing about politcs we--citizen-- can finally understand the reaosn for what happened and also find a way to avoid more death and suffering in the future... ;)

[uncertaindrumer]

Saddam Hussein was a definate threat to stability in the Middle East. His meddling in the Palestine/Israel affair was a major reason as to why so many suicide bombers blew up innocent Israelis. His sons were going to take over Iraq. It is a proven fact that his sons were just as bad as Saddam. You can't sit there and tell me that Uday and Qusay were going to take Iraq, turn it into paradise, and put a peace sign on their flag. Saddam had plenty of time to expel his weapons prior to the U.S. led invasion. He's not a stupid man. He's not going to put giant signs that say "WMDs HERE!" Since the first Gulf War, he broke 16 U.N. resolutions regarding his weapons program. He also committed crimes against humanity on numerous occasions. Saddam Hussein was a weapon of mass destruction... he showed that. Since you obviously have a problem with the United States taking out this murderer... you must've been so distraught when Bill Clinton sent troops into Kosovo to oust Slobadan Milosevic, into Somalia, into Haiti, and air raids on Baghdad. Bill Clinton's foreign policy was on the same page as Bush. John Kerry said that Saddam's weapons were a threat, so did Ted Kennedy, and Bill Clinton. So Bush uses diplomacy with North Korea, China, and Iran... and you have a problem with that? Don't speak so soon about us not having a military conflict with Iran... especially after the man they just elected was a captor in the Iran Hostage Crisis.

I am no Clinton fan. I am major pro-life and couldn't stand his personal business. But he DID NOT get us into an full scale wars.

We didn't invade "to kill the people of Iraq." We invaded Saddam's Iraq to take out the Baath Party fascist regime. Plain and simple.

We might have invaded to do one thing but war has this way of not going as planned. TENS OF THOUSANDS of Iraqis have died, along with almost 1800 of our own soldiers.




And if Bush is a "liar" for thinking that Saddam is a threat according to uncertaindrummer... then so is John Kerry, Bill Clinton, Ted Kennedy, Al Gore, John Edwards, Vladimir Putin, Tony Blair, Silvio Berlusconi of Italy, John Howard of Australia... and the leaders of Poland, Bulgaria, Spain, South Korea, Japan, Denmark, the Philippines, Hungary, Israel, Lebanon, and Romania because all of these governments had information that backed up Bush.

Like what? If you think this idea was anyone but Bush's idea, you ARE crazy. He wanted a war with Iraq, so he went to try and find REASONS for it. And DUH, Iraq has done terrible things so tis gonne be EASY to prance out all these broken U.N. resolutions and "possibilities" of WMD's. There were none. If it was possible that we had just "missed" them, wouldn't Bush have told us so? You bet he would.

[uncertaindrumer]

I never said I was a big Bush supporter, first of all. So, it's okay for people on here to insult the American people by saying that we elected a "lying killer." But when it comes to Chase expressing his opinions... look out... he's a "rah-rah flag-waving Bush supporter" whose "insulting" other members for rebutting their aimless claims about how Bush is a "liar" out "for oil." I have the right to my opinion just as they have the right to say that America invaded Iraq just to kill innocent people.

I've been respectful to their opinions, but by posting this... you're trying to stir up trouble by accusing me of "insulting" other people's opinions. You might want to close this thread before people start thinking that this country called America isn't out to imperialize the world. Hurry before it's too late.

How old are you? Do you not REMEMBER any wars, Chase?

More than ANYTHING, the problem with these people who support this war in Iraq is that %75 of them don't have a CLUE what war is like. Have you ever been in the military? Ever been in a combat situation? THERE IS A REASON, that the line "War is Hell" was coined. Because it IS. War should be a last resort's last resort. And even then we should think HARD about if it actually is our last resort.

I surely hope you are old enough to remember a war, because if not, your posts reek of ignorance.

[Chase]

I don't know if you're just stupid or if you can't pay attention to what people say. Did you MISS this part?


And if you've ever listened through any of System Of A Down's album you'd notice that I've quoted VERY unknown and pretty old songs too.


I don't know, maybe you forgot that it was America who first gave Saddam the power! Good going boys, keep "saving" the world!


No, if Europe would have had it OUR way from the start, Saddam wouldn't even have been in charge of Iraq.


Well, you may have created them, but you sure as hell don't give a fuck about them. You don't even pay them enough money each year! And just so you know. You're breaking a law when you don't ask for permission of UN to start war.


You know... If you look at American history you'll easily see that you guys have always had big problems with uniting your nation. But then you figured. "Hey man, it's much easier to unite a nation if you have an enemy everyone's afraid of! Yeah, let's do that!!". What about the Killing Bees? Why would they JUST come to US? Your goverment has scared you so bad that you're afraid for everything! And right now your global enemy is terrorists. Hell, it should be yourselvs!


Because we don't like your way your thinking! And here's some of your country men whos got my back!

Besides from System Of A Down, (who has an American drummer and was formed in Californa), check this out:

-Here's a picture of System Of A Down's lead singer; Serj Tankian and Audioslave's/(Rage Against The Machine's) lead guitarist Tom Morello. Picture (http://www.axisofjustice.org/images/photo_mission_01.jpg). They've formed a political organization for justice and against war. You can tell they're not too crazy about Bush. The site is called [http://www.axisofjustice.org/]AxisOfJustice.org[/url]

-Here's a picture of Tim Commerford and Tom Morello from Audioslave/(Rage Against The Machine) doing something against Bush, I've done many times! Click here (http://www.axisofjustice.org/images/photo_donate.jpg)

-Rock Stars Against Bush, (features Dave Matthews Band and Bruce Springsteen). Click here (http://www.spacechase.net/green/rock_against_bush.htm). Here's two albums they've made: Vol 1 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0001WPSM2/ref=pd_sxp_f/102-8578412-3353756?v=glance&s=music). Vol 2 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0002IQKDQ/ref=pd_sxp_f/102-8578412-3353756?v=glance&s=music)

- Bruce Springsteen, Neil Young, R.E.M., Pearl Jam and a deep roster of other rock stars will unite for politically minded concerts this fall that will give voice to dissatisfaction with the Bush administration. (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0725-02.htm)

-Or why don't read the lyrics to Wind-Up band Atomship songs? Here's one of them called Agent Orange:

Well, that'll do it for now, I could go on forever doing this... But hey, at least you got Britney Spears on your side!

Hardy har har... and at least we have the U.S. military on our side. At least you have your Norsemen warriors on your side.

In 1968, Saddam was part of a coup to overthrow the government and put the Baath Party in power. The United States had nothing to do with that. I assume you're referring to the Iraq/Iran war in which we supported Iraq. That's called an "unholy alliance." This has been seen during World War II, where the United States and the U.S.S.R. were allies. Sometimes, nations who don't like each other back each other up for the good of both of their nations... then it's not unlikely for those two nations to end up in some sort of a conflict afterwards. France didn't want to endorse the war against Saddam Hussein because they had economic ties to him, as did Russia, and Germany. Those are some of the most powerful European nations. You do realize that Europe has had a history of NOT stopping dictators early on.

The reason why we've had trouble uniting ourselves during history is because America GIVES its citizens the right to disagree. That's what happens in a democratic republic like America.

And the majority of Americans laugh at the rock bands and actors who are all of a sudden experts on American politics. War is bad... period. But I would love to hear how you guys would've stopped Hitler, imperial Japan, Saddam Hussein, Slobadan Milosevic and Osama Bin Laden. Flowers and candy isn't going to persuade these people to stop committing genocide. How would you stop intense anti Semitism? By peacefully asking these murderers to keep their hands to themselves? I hate war... but I'm not so ingnorant to think that war has NEVER done anything good. I'm glad that we had a Revolutionary War...

[uncertaindrumer]

Wait, did I miss something? Did Saddam Hussein attack Pearl Harbor? Did he invade Poland and France and Britain? Did he blow up the twin towers? I must have missed something...

[Ana4Stapp]

I hate war... but I'm not so ingnorant to think that war has NEVER done anything good. I'm glad that we had a Revolutionary War...

NOTHING good comes from a war!!!!!!!!! NEVER!!!! :(

Let's see: the results of the WWI prepared the WWII, WWII gave us the frightening days of the "Cold War" -- by the way, almost results in the 3rd WW... now --War of Iraq is giving the terrorism all over the world...

[uncertaindrumer]

Dude, NOTHING good came from the Revolutionary War. If the Colonists hadn't been FORCED to fight they WOULDN'T have. It was a tyrannical government who not only forced them to rebel, but then to fight when they wouldn't let the U.S. go quietly.

NOTHING good comes out of war, EVER.

[The Lithium]

Wait, did I miss something? Did Saddam Hussein attack Pearl Harbor? Did he invade Poland and France and Britain? Did he blow up the twin towers? I must have missed something...
Dude, NOTHING good came from the Revolutionary War. If the Colonists hadn't been FORCED to fight they WOULDN'T have. It was a tyrannical government who not only forced them to rebel, but then to fight when they wouldn't let the U.S. go quietly.

NOTHING good comes out of war, EVER.
Man do I love you or what? :D

Chase... Friend... I've got one word for you... "Unite!"

[Trimontana]

Wait, did I miss something? Did Saddam Hussein attack Pearl Harbor? Did he invade Poland and France and Britain? Did he blow up the twin towers? I must have missed something...
man, i love like you write ;)

[Ana4Stapp]

Yeah Gabi...this is a great post! ;) I loved it.

Hey: Lithium, Stephen... I LOVE YOU guys !!!! :flowers:

[Chase]

Wait, did I miss something? Did Saddam Hussein attack Pearl Harbor? Did he invade Poland and France and Britain? Did he blow up the twin towers? I must have missed something...

Dude, if NOTHING ever good comes from wars... then how would YOU have stopped Hitler's rampage through Europe, Osama Bin Laden's terror network, Japan's conquest of the South Pacific, Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait, Slobodan Milosevic's war crimes in Kosovo, and the Taliban's funding of Osama Bin Laden. How would you have declared independence from King George III? A lot of good came from liberating Europe from Nazi Germany. A LOT of good. Pacifism wouldn't have halted Adolf Hitler.

If I hate Scott Stapp and President Bush... would you love me too? :o

[Chase]

I

NOTHING good comes from a war!!!!!!!!! NEVER!!!! :(

Let's see: the results of the WWI prepared the WWII, WWII gave us the frightening days of the "Cold War" -- by the way, almost results in the 3rd WW... now --War of Iraq is giving the terrorism all over the world...

Something must've slipped by your historical radar. There was a little thing called the Holocaust that was ended because Nazi Germany was defeated. I mean, most sane people would consider the end of the Holocaust a good thing. The Soviet Union and the United States were the world's only two super powers following World War II. The Soviets were led by a madman named Josef Stalin who instigated the Cold War... especially by putting nuclear weapons in Cuba that were within a short distance of the United States. When the Soviet Union collapsed, a bunch of former Soviet states were freed from the oppressions that Lenin and Stalin's Soviet Communism bestowed upon them. Most people consider the collapse of the U.S.S.R. as a good thing.

Look, I respect all of your opinions and I understand where you're coming from. I hope I didn't come off as too much a jerk to you guys... but it's obvious that we are all passionate about our political opinions. So, that being said... you know where I stand and I know where you stand. I do, however, think that there should be more threads in here devoted to political debate because I think that it is healthy to debate and beneficial to know the political opinions of those from other nations.

[Ana4Stapp]

Something must've slipped by your historical radar.

Well, I think your historical radar never worked well... :rolleyes:

There was a little thing called the Holocaust that was ended because Nazi Germany was defeated.

Dont you know Nazi German appears because of the humiliation imposed by the Versailles Treaty at the end of the WW1! --Hitler became a leader in a Germany living in a social crisis:bankruptcy, high levels of unemployment, misery, hunger, opressed,without perspective, but maybe waiting for something or SOMEONE that could change that situation...

I mean, most sane people would consider the end of the Holocaust a good thing.

Yes, Of course, no one here is saying different...I mean, not sure if you can consider me as a sane person...lol

The Soviet Union and the United States were the world's only two super powers following World War II.

See, the end of the WWII' promoted the beggining of the Cold War! Was it GOOD??? Of course not, cause people all over the world lived in a suspense, because those were years of great tension.

The Soviets were led by a madman named Josef Stalin who instigated the Cold War.

Only the sovitets???? I mean , did they make the Cold War alone????

What about the american presidents who "accepted" it???? Did they fight only because they wanted to SAVE the world ???? Or did they fight because of the POWER??? Because wanted the worlds leadership??

especially by putting nuclear weapons in Cuba that were within a short distance of the United States.

especially fighting wars in Asia's countries to avoid comunism in that area, supporting dictatorship in Latin America to avoid new Cuban Revolutions, creating the STAR WARS militar program and forgetting the Salt-2 treaty...oh yeah...the URSS were alone... :rolleyes:


When the Soviet Union collapsed, a bunch of former Soviet states were freed from the oppressions that Lenin and Stalin's Soviet Communism bestowed upon them. Most people consider the collapse of the U.S.S.R. as a good thing.

Dont you notice that the collapse of the USSR was obtain WITHOUT A WAR, but throughout of a great plan of transformations --PERESTROIKA( restructuration), and GLASNOST( transparency) ??? -- It means: changes in all levels : economy, society and even socialism. No need a war!

Look, I respect all of your opinions and I understand where you're coming from. I hope I didn't come off as too much a jerk to you guys... but it's obvious that we are all passionate about our political opinions. So, that being said... you know where I stand and I know where you stand. I do, however, think that there should be more threads in here devoted to political debate because I think that it is healthy to debate and beneficial to know the political opinions of those from other nations.


I respect your opinions too, Chase and that's why I was disapointed when someone asked to close that thread, cause i think to debate politics is always a VERY positive thing...



If I hate Scott Stapp and President Bush... would you love me too? :o
LOL!!!!!! Of course I love you Chase!!!!! :kiss: :flowers:

[uncertaindrumer]

Dude, if NOTHING ever good comes from wars... then how would YOU have stopped Hitler's rampage through Europe, Osama Bin Laden's terror network, Japan's conquest of the South Pacific, Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait, Slobodan Milosevic's war crimes in Kosovo, and the Taliban's funding of Osama Bin Laden. How would you have declared independence from King George III? A lot of good came from liberating Europe from Nazi Germany. A LOT of good. Pacifism wouldn't have halted Adolf Hitler.

Wait, are you insinuatin WWII was GOOD?! Becasue if you are, you are insane. If not, then you are saying it was necessary that we fight back. IT WAS. We had to stop Hitler from taking over the world. HE STARTED it, so even though the war produced millions upon millions dead, countries leveld and we came out of it with a new superweapon--atom bombs--it was HITLER who started the terrible war, not US. In Iraq, WE started it.

This just further gives me belief that you have absolutely no idea what a warzone is like. I don't and I hope to never find out, but I know that it is even worse than I imagine. Your posts reek of civilian ignorance. War is ALWAYS bad, and NOTHING good can come out of it. If war can be avoided it should be. It wasn't the U.S.'s fault that Germany invaded France or that Japan attacked Pearl Harbor. It WAS our fault that we invaded Iraq.

[Chase]

"Civilian ignorance?" I come from a HUGE Navy family. Following college I may enter the Navy. I had two grandfathers who were in the U.S. Navy and one of them faught in World War II and the Korean War. My stepfather is currently a Senior Chief in the U.S. and has been to Persian Gulf several times and Somalia. My uncle, who was in the Army, was stationed in West Germany during the Vietnam War and the Cold War. I was close to quite a few World War II veterans, Vietnam War veterans, and my best friend is currently serving in Afghanistan and Iraq. I've known people that have faught in every U.S. military conflict since World War I (yes, World War I... I know a guy who is 103 years old.).

So... it's not a good thing that millions of Jews were liberated from Hitler. Okay... that's fine, a little anti-Semitic, but that's your opinion. I mean, unless you know a way to combat the most evil people in the world by using pacifism... please let all of us know. If you know how to get Saddam Hussein to stop gassing thousands of Iraqis... let us know. Obviously the multiple times he threw out the U.N. weapons inspectors didn't throw up a red flag that something was suspicious about Hussein. Saddam Hussein broke the rules of the United Nations 16 times. I mean... if the U.S. is evil for not being a U.N. bitch... but Saddam continuously broke U.N. rules. You seem to be an isolationist... and that's fine. Who cares about people in countries who are murdered by their governments for speaking against them. Who the hell cares right? It's not us... so that's fine. Before you judge me... realize that if you're an American the main reason why you're in this country is because of the American Revolution. The main reason why I was born in California is because of things like Manifest Destiny and the result of the Mexican-American War. I hate to say it... but I'm happy to be alive. All these things led up to every American being in this country.

War is bad, but a lot of good does come from war. In the Cold War... we won the Cold War by bluffing with "programs" like STAR WARS. Reagan outspeant the U.S.S.R. and bankrupted their infrastructure. The U.S.S.R. has been dissolved since 1991 and many former Soviet states were freed from the Soviet collapse. That's a bad thing? Jews were liberated in Europe because of World War II. That's a bad thing? Hell, so was most of Europe. That's a bad thing? The Civil War outlawed slavery in the United States. That's a bad thing? South Korea is a freely democratic nation because of the Korean War. That's a bad thing? 60% of Iraqis went to vote for their government. That's a bad thing? I haven't been into a warzone yet, but at least I'm not ingorant enought to say that NOTHING good has ever come from war. That's an ignorant statement. Europe would be speaking two languages: German and Russian; had there not been a World War II. The Cold War is done. Europe is overwhelmingly freely democratic in this post Cold War world. That must be a horrid, tragically bad outcome for you.

[uncertaindrumer]

Actually, Reagan destroying Russia's economy is a good example of how things can be achieved WITHOUT fighting on a battlefield, but that is besides the point.

Stopping Hitler didn't come from the war, he STARTED the war. It was bad, period. No good came out of WWII.

Invading Iraq was not only bad for the U.S., it was highly immoral. Pre-emptively striking a country is always immoral. AND LET'S BE STRAIGHT ON SOMETHING HERE. Bush didn't sell the public on Iraq because it was going to liberate the people of Iraq or because we were gonna be all humanitarian. He sold the proposition because Iraq was a "threat" to the U.S. They clearly weren't. And even if they WERE, it would STILL be immoral to attack first and ask questions later. One of the things our country has proudly stayed away from is military conquest. Outside of the brutal slaughter of native Americans which everyone agrees was terrible, we have almost always stayed away from military conquest. Unfortunately, in a free moral State, you have to let the bad guys shoot first, or you become the bad guy. If you shoot first, you deny anyone else the opportunity of staying peaceful.

Let's review a few things here: The economy is in shambles, we have lost almost as many men in Iraq as we did on 9/11, the world hates us, someday we might need to draft soldiers, Iran and North Korea are starting or have finished nuclear weapons programs which Iraq was SUPPOSED to have but doesnt, and you are saying the Iraq war was a GOOD THING?

Saying war is never good is not ignorant, it is true, and only warmongers and militants would say otherwise, which is what Bush is. There is justified war, but a justified war must, among other things, be a defensive war, not a pre-emptive strike on a nation for NO CAUSE at all. WWII was Hitler's problem, not ours. The Civil War was a gigantic greivous error, with 600,000 dead on both sides. If the South had just stopped slavery it would never have happened. Countless other examples could show the same thing. Do you not understand history? Evil creates war and war creates evil. NOTHING good comes out of war.

Jews didn't stop being killed because of the war, they stopped because THE WAR STOPPED. Throughout history, wars have never done anything good. Do bad things get corrected? Yes, but if it weren't for the evil among human beings there would be no need. The United States ruined not only its reputation but its credibility as a peace-loving nation by attacking Iraq. You don't believe me? Travel abroad, find out what others think of the U.S. The opinions are clear. We started a completely unneccessary war for no reason at all.

[Chase]

I wholeheatedly agree that great things are accomplished without war. However, at times, war is necessary. At times war has been abused, though also. Iraq is a separate argument and I can understand why it's so controversial. Most of the world would support this war if the U.N. approved of it. That's how much trust is in the United Nations. However, things like the U.N. Oil for Food scandal does shed some light on why U.N. support was so scarce. War is bad... I agree with that. However, not considering the liberation of European Jews as a good thing is a stretch. Jews are still murdered today... but there's no comparison to the Holocaust and there aren't camps like Auschwitz. Without that war... who knows how many Jewish families would've been butchered? Regarding the Cold War... the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. were both terrified of war with each other because there was a possiblity of them both ending civilization on Earth. Reagan's tactics happened to be successful, thank God. John F. Kennedy almost had us in nuclear war with the Soviets... and thank God, that never happened.

I'm glad you brought up the sad history of the Native Americans. That, along with slavery, are the biggest disgraces in American history. I am saddened that our credibility is tarnished with the rest of the world. I am a Republican, but George Bush isn't the man I wanted in the White House. I'm a huge fan of John McCain and his politics, personally. George Bush took us to war based on collective information that came from the CIA, and the rest of the nations that I previously mentioned. It's not like, it was Bush and only Bush... and he just wanted to take over the oil and kill everyone in sight. Those countries donated support because they viewed Saddam as a threat. If Bush is "warmongering," then so is every other world leader that agreed with the war. Bush listened to the CIA and acted. His main mistake was not using Saddam's war crimes as the main justification for war though. The Iraqis turned out in great numbers to vote... and those elections influenced nations like Ukraine and Lebanon to demand democracy from their governments. I think that freedom loving governments are better than governments that deny rights to their people. That's my opinion. Sadly, Iraq's state of instability is hurting the people of the country. Nevertheless, a free Iraq is better for the world.

[Ana4Stapp]

Chase. I haven't been into a warzone yet, but at least I'm not ingorant enought to say that NOTHING good has ever come from war..


Chase, Chase.... History teach us just the opposite! :rolleyes:







Uncertain: I'm still loving your posts...! :wub:

[uncertaindrumer]

I wholeheatedly agree that great things are accomplished without war. However, at times, war is necessary. At times war has been abused, though also. Iraq is a separate argument and I can understand why it's so controversial. Most of the world would support this war if the U.N. approved of it. That's how much trust is in the United Nations. However, things like the U.N. Oil for Food scandal does shed some light on why U.N. support was so scarce. War is bad... I agree with that. However, not considering the liberation of European Jews as a good thing is a stretch. Jews are still murdered today... but there's no comparison to the Holocaust and there aren't camps like Auschwitz. Without that war... who knows how many Jewish families would've been butchered? Regarding the Cold War... the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. were both terrified of war with each other because there was a possiblity of them both ending civilization on Earth. Reagan's tactics happened to be successful, thank God. John F. Kennedy almost had us in nuclear war with the Soviets... and thank God, that never happened.

I'm glad you brought up the sad history of the Native Americans. That, along with slavery, are the biggest disgraces in American history. I am saddened that our credibility is tarnished with the rest of the world. I am a Republican, but George Bush isn't the man I wanted in the White House. I'm a huge fan of John McCain and his politics, personally. George Bush took us to war based on collective information that came from the CIA, and the rest of the nations that I previously mentioned. It's not like, it was Bush and only Bush... and he just wanted to take over the oil and kill everyone in sight. Those countries donated support because they viewed Saddam as a threat. If Bush is "warmongering," then so is every other world leader that agreed with the war. Bush listened to the CIA and acted. His main mistake was not using Saddam's war crimes as the main justification for war though. The Iraqis turned out in great numbers to vote... and those elections influenced nations like Ukraine and Lebanon to demand democracy from their governments. I think that freedom loving governments are better than governments that deny rights to their people. That's my opinion. Sadly, Iraq's state of instability is hurting the people of the country. Nevertheless, a free Iraq is better for the world.

Alright this psot is more reasonable. But still, you miss the poitn behind "Nothing good comes from war". The liberation of Jews in Nazi Death camps didn't come because of all the fighting, it came because the fighting ended, and there was a new government in Germany. Had Germany never gone Nazi, there would have been no war and the world would have been a WHOLE TON better off. The Allies were FORCED to fight because the Germans and Japanese were the aggressors. If you are forced to fight, it is not something you can complain about.

We certainly were not forced to fight in Iraq. We INVADED a country. Do you not get that? Maybe it was a coutnry with evil in it, but we INVADED wthout provokation. That means that if Russia ever decides to get a little aggressive and invade some random country for no good reason atll, the U.S. CANNOT complain! If Iran starts to conquer countries, no one can complain! We did the same thing, and got a lot of people killed!

Also, your notion that free Iraq is better for the world is somewhat saddening... If Iraq could truly remain free, maybe, but what on Earth is going to stop another Saddam from gaining power? Nothing. Islam is not as used to democracy as we are, and it doesn't work as well. But let's say for argument's sake that Iraq itself stays free. How do we knwo that will not just entice other countries--say, Iran--to try and conquer it? Who knows? We can't be so certain.

Finally, we keep hearing that we are better of with a tyrant out of power. Well here's the question: Why now, why this tyrant? there are hundreds of totalitarian, brutal governments in the world, and we never a did a thing about them before. Before 9/11, "Taliban" was probably thought to be some kind of food in most Americans minds. Why weren't we slinging bombs at these people before, if its the United States duty to invade and destroy those whose tactics we disagree with?

[Chase]

The reason why Iran won't invade Iraq is because the Shia are going to hold the most seats in the Iraqi Parliament. Iran is a Shia nation, and the majority of the Iraq is Shia Muslim. Saddam Hussein came from the minority Sunni, and when he gained control of Iraq he put the Sunnis in power. The Sunni-led government was the government that attacked the Shia and Kurdish populations in Iraq. Muqtada Al-Sadr is a Shia, and to my knowledge, his father was killed by Saddam's agents.

I'm not saying that Iraq should be a secular nation that separates religion from politics. Islamic nations need their religion to be incorporated in their government. That means, they can freely elect religious leaders to lead them... or they can chose Western educated candidates.

The last administration invaded Yugoslavia, Somalia, Haiti, and consistantly bombed Iraq from No-fly zones. These were all cases where the United States was not provoked. In World War II, the only nation that provoked the United States was Japan. Germany was preoccupied with fighting nations like Great Britain. It was only after we had declared war on Japan, that Germany had declared war on the United States.

You ask why we never did anything to the Taliban prior to 9/11? That's a question for Bill Clinton. He knew of the Taliban's ties to Osama Bin Laden. Clinton had chances to seized custody of Osama Bin Laden from Sudan on three separate occasions. We had numerous U.S. embassies attacked overseas, the U.S.S. Cole bombing, and the first World Trade Center bombing all during his administration. The majority of these attackers were tied to Osama Bin Laden's terror network. Still, going after Al-Qaeda wasn't the big priority that it should've been. The fact that Bill Clinton didn't go after Al-Qaeda isn't George Bush's fault.

One more thing... had Nazi Germany not declared war on all of Europe, the Holocaust would've never happened. Had the Allies not stopped Hitler by use of military force, the Holocaust wouldn't have been stopped and Hitler may have exterminated all of the Jews in Europe. If the U.S., Britain, and the Soviet Union chose not to stand up to Hitler he would've killed every Jew in the continent. The fact that Nazi Germany was defeated by the Allies is why the Holocaust ended. Yes, the fighting did end... but if Hitler had conquered all of Europe and then ordered his troops to end their attacks, then the Holocaust would've ended in a completely different context. Hitler would've achieved what he set out to do... and that was to end Jewish civilizations in Europe. The Holocaust was stopped because the Allies destroyed the Nazi Germany.

And how are there "hundreds" of totalitarian regimes in the world when the world only has something like 192 recognized nations? Not every nation on the planet is ran by a totalitarian dictator.

[uncertaindrumer]

And how are there "hundreds" of totalitarian regimes in the world when the world only has something like 192 recognized nations? Not every nation on the planet is ran by a totalitarian dictator.

I don't have the time or the will to respond to your whole post, as you clearly just refuse to realize that war is to be avoided. But in this instance, a shrot answer will suffice.

You think EVERY regime needs to have an officialy country? Then why on Earth are we discussing this...

[Chase]

War is to be avoided when you have Nazi Germany getting ready to exterminate Jews and conquer the entire European continent? War is to be avoided when you have an attack like 9/11? You might as well as roll out the welcome mat to Osama because he would take advantage of your "no war at all costs" logic.

And you did say that there are hundreds of brutal, tyrannical governments. Since I assume that you're not talking about primitive tribes... you must be saying that there are hundreds of tyrannical regimes running the world. All I said is that... I don't think all of the 192 nations in the world are dicatorships. In fact it's quite the opposite, most of the world still is free.

Here's the world's dictators in 2005 as defined by Freedom House:


Abdelaziz Bouteflika
Algeria


Jose Eduardo dos Santos
Angola


Ilham Aliyev
Azerbaijan


Aleksandr Lukashenka
Belarus


Jigme Singye Wangchuk
Bhutan


Hassanal Bolkiah Mu’izzaddin
Waddaulah, Brunei



Than Shwe
Burma


Hun Sen
Cambodia


Paul Biya
Cameroon



Francois Bozize
Central African Republic


Idriss Deby
Chad


Hu Jintao
China



Fidel Castro
Cuba


Joseph Kabila
Congo-Kinshasa


Laurent Gbagbo
Côte d'Ivoire



Hosni Mubarak
Egypt


Teodoro Obiang Nguema
Mbasogo, Equatorial Guinea


Isaias Afwerki
Eritrea



Lansana Conte
Guinea


Ayatollah Ali Khamenei
Iran


Nursultan Nazarbayev
Kazakhstan



Khamtai Siphandon
Laos


Muammar al-Qaddafi
Libya


Bashar al-Assad
Rules Lebanon and is dicatator of Syria. (due to Lebanon's demand of freedom, he is withdrawing Syrian troops from the country.)

Maumoon Abdul Gayoom
Maldives


Maaouiya Ould Sid Ahmed
Taya, Mauritania


Kim Jong Il
North Korea



Qabus bin Said al-Said
Oman


Pervez Musharraf
Pakistan


Hamad bin Khalifa al-Thani
Qatar



Vladimir Putin
Russia


Paul Kagame

Rwanda


Abdullah ibn Abdul Aziz
Al Saud, Saudi Arabia



Omar Al-Bashir
Sudan


Mswati III
Swaziland


Bashar al-Assad
Syria



Imomali Rakhmonov
Tajikistan


Faure Gnassingbé Eyadéma
Togo


Zine al-Abidine Ben Ali
Tunisia



Saparmurad Niyazov
Turkmenistan


Sultan Khalifa bin Zayed al Nehyan, United Arab Emirates


Islam Karimov
Uzbekistan



Nong Duc Manh
Vietnam


Robert Mugabe
Zimbabwe

[Ana4Stapp]

[QUOTE=Chase]War is to be avoided when you have Nazi Germany getting ready to exterminate Jews and conquer the entire European continent? War is to be avoided when you have an attack like 9/11? You might as well as roll out the welcome mat to Osama because he would take advantage of your "no war at all costs" logic.

Chase, didnt you get the real point in the uncertain's post?

Well, let me try:

The point is a war must always be avoided, cause definitely nothing good comes from a war. Sometimes, however, a war is a "response". For instance,in the WWII case, extermination of the Jews needed to be cease it...so the allies did it.

In the 9/11, US also did it, what means they were not provoking a war, cause US was attacked first. But in the war of Iraq...US is not responding a WAR, US is invading a country ...and provoking it.

[uncertaindrumer]

War is to be avoided when you have Nazi Germany getting ready to exterminate Jews and conquer the entire European continent? War is to be avoided when you have an attack like 9/11? You might as well as roll out the welcome mat to Osama because he would take advantage of your "no war at all costs" logic.

Well first off, There is a big difference from fighting a war and being best friends. You can completely cut yourself off from a coutnry without invading them.

Second, I still have not made up my mind if the United States were best served by invading Afghanistan or not, although surely it was more justified than invading Iraq since those who were after had already attacked us.

And finally, you continue to just let the point fly over your head. WE DIDN'T FREAKING START WWII. How many times do I have to say that? There is such a huge diference from defending yourself and ATTACKING someone else--a difference which you seem to not understand--it isn't even funny.

[uncertaindrumer]

And as for that ridiculous list. Each and every one of those despots has hundreds of people aroun them who share their ideals. And that list is so un-cimprehensive it isn't even funny.

And here is another thing, Chase, I have a question: Woudl you consider it immoral for Britain to invade the U.S.? Would you?

[Chase]

No, I would not consider it immoral for Britain to invade the U.S. If the Brits would want to invade the U.S., they have the right to try. Then again, you're comparing apples to oranges. In the history of the modern U.S. presidency... there hasn't been incidences where the President ordered out the mass torture and gassing of innocent American opposition groups. That happened in Iraq... and the world condemn those actions. You keep saying war is bad regardless of what context surrounds the conflict. You would have rather not had the U.S. defend Europe, thus allowing Hitler's success. That's what I'm assuming since you haven't said otherwise. Adolf Hitler's forces were not yet an immediate threat to the U.S. Were we wrong to preemptively attack the Nazis before they became a threat to the United States? According to your logic, we are. And as for that list... every sane political scientist in the world has deemed those leaders to be dictators. You think that it's ridiculous to call Kim Jong Il II a dictator? Or Robert Mugabe? What are they then? You said that there are hundreds of dictators roaming the Earth. When I show you a list that has been globally accepted, you call it "ridiculous." You're right Uncertain... you are the most controversial person posting on these boards.

[uncertaindrumer]

You would have rather not had the U.S. defend Europe, thus allowing Hitler's success.

I have REPEATEDLY denied that. The U.S. was FORCED to fight. That is entirely different.

When I show you a list that has been globally accepted, you call it "ridiculous."

Because it is too SHORT, not because it is too long. You completely missed my post.

No, I would not consider it immoral for Britain to invade the U.S.

Well, sorry. That just looks plain stupid to me, and I would assume most of sane America.

In the history of the modern U.S. presidency... there hasn't been incidences where the President ordered out the mass torture and gassing of innocent American opposition groups.

True, but I look at abortion as the single greatest evil in the world right now, and the U.S. endorses it.

On a final note, I don't think the Iraq war has NO justification at all, I just think it didn't have enough. In my opinion, war should ALWAYS, ALWAYS be a last resort and I think that Iraq was not necessarily that. Good thigns could possibly be accomploished. If Iraq can remain free that would be huge. And example is that of INdia: it has the second largets muslim population in the world but no terrorists. That is almost certainyl explain by the freedom they have there. If Iraq can be free, that is a great thing.

I don't think Bush is evil for doing this, i think he believed it the right thing to do, but by my personal moral standards, any PRE-EMPTIVE strike is immoral. The problem with living in a free country is that you HAVE to let the bad guys strike first, or else you become the bad guy, that is my point. I don't think we did that in Iraq.

[Chase]

Uncertain... your heart is in the right place and I think that your ideologies regarding warfare are some of the most upfront, and honest I have ever heard. We have slight disagreements, but I agree with why you hate war. I think that war is a little more justafiable at times. However, I ABSOLUTELY endorse your opinion on abortion. You nailed it. That is a huge evil that the American left supports.

[uncertaindrumer]

Glad to hear it, lol

I definitely think abortion is a MUCH larger evil than the Iraq war could ever be, which is why I am still glad Bush is our President and not John Kerry. My qualms with the Iraq war were not that I thought Saddam was a great person or that it was a bad thing to liberate the country, but that war should never be takent lightly and I think that this war was not necessarily a last-resort call.

But either way we are there, and now we need to finish the job. If Iraq can be a sustained free country Bush is right--it WOULD be a large step toward middle east stability. It is no joke that dictatorships induce terror and destruction.

[Ana4Stapp]

See it:http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8655541/ 'Very serious incident' in London

Four explosions or attempted explosions confirmed at subway stations, bus

[Dogstar]

Unreal. Some are suggesting it's the work of a copycat.

[JulieCitySlicker]

That is a sad thing :( I'm glad that there weren't many people hurt this time.

[Trimontana]

yeah Julie, Police guaranteed that was noone injured this time but i dunno what to believe.

[uncertaindrumer]

Unreal. Some are suggesting it's the work of a copycat.
Not sure whether to hope so or not... at least then its not organized terror, but it means EERYONE is doing it...

At least no one was hurt.

[Ana4Stapp]

I dont know if it was a work of copycats, but the London police said they found some "evidences" that the two attacks were connected.The authorities also said that backpacks and explosives were identical to those of July 7 attackers.

Their intention were definitely to KILL people, but the explosives didnt work :the detonators just failed.


The whole world is definitely in danger, cause I really dont think they are not organized, I think its just the opposite... :(

See that:http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8655541/

[Ana4Stapp]

The dead man in London by police was brazilian--his name was Jean Charles Menezes,27 and lived in London since 2002 in Kingston Hill district. He was legal in England and he used to work as a electrician.

LONDON, England (CNN) -- Police say the man they shot dead at a London Underground station "was not connected" with this week's attempted bombings on the city's transit system.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8655541/

But now, it's too late guys... too late! :(

[hayley]

I've heard about this on Sky News all during the weekend.

This is an absolute disgrace - I cannot beleive that 5 shots to the head of an innocent man, who had nothing to do with any of the bombings what so ever. It's disgusting, this cop should feel so embarrased!!

And I've heard about these 4 bombings that never went off, but were supposed to, and these suicide bombers in Egypt, this world just gets more scary as each day passes, makes you think when your town is next :(

[Anna1011]

i couldnt believe they killed that guy they could have at least shot him somewhere so he would like and they could question him and that they shot him while holding him to the ground is well bad, if the guy wasnt involved with the bombings why did he jump the gate and run from the police what was he trying to hide?

[uncertaindrumer]

They shot him five times in the head? Hmmm... that is what we call "overkill". Either way, why not shoot the guy in the leg like police are TRAINED to do?

[Ana4Stapp]

i couldnt believe they killed that guy they could have at least shot him somewhere so he would like and they could question him and that they shot him while holding him to the ground is well bad, if the guy wasnt involved with the bombings why did he jump the gate and run from the police what was he trying to hide?



Just to clarify your question, a friend of Jean said he ran cause he was attacked by a gang in the previous week, so probably he was afraid of this kind of thing could happen again, and also, the policemen were in civilian clothes...

He was a poor guy that decided to work in London to help his modest family, he used to send money he earned to them, cause he intended to help his father to build a house in Brazil--it was his dream... :(

[Ana4Stapp]

They shot him five times in the head? Hmmm... that is what we call "overkill". Either way, why not shoot the guy in the leg like police are TRAINED to do?


After the two attacks the London police and also the English government needed a scapegoat...but maybe they can explain that being an honest mistake... :rolleyes:

[uncertaindrumer]

Just to clarify your question, a friend of Jean said he run cause he was attacked by a gang in the previous week, so probably he was afraid of this kind of thing could happen again, and also, the policemen were in civilian clothes...

He was a poor guy that decided to work in London to help his modest family, he used to send money he earned to them, cause he intended to help his father to build a house in Brazil--it was his dream... :(

Dang you are almost making me cry, Ana!

[uncertaindrumer]

After the two attacks the London police and also the English government needed a scapegoat...but maybe they can explain that being an honest mistake... :rolleyes:

Well they certainly didn't get a scapegoat... and now they need to explain their own actions... and five shots to the head hardly sounds like an honest mistake. like I said, I hadn't read the report yet...

[Ana4Stapp]

Dang you are almost making me cry, Ana!


I dont understand the reason of being so ironic, uncertain!



Especially you! :(

[Ana4Stapp]

Well they certainly didn't get a scapegoat... and now they need to explain their own actions... and five shots to the head hardly sounds like an honest mistake. like I said, I hadn't read the report yet...

You said it?--Cause I really dont recall you saying it in that thread.... :rolleyes:

[Ana4Stapp]

More news see that:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4713753.stm

[Chase]

I have a question? In Brazil... do they wear long winter overcoats during the summer? In Brazil... do they run from the police when asked to stop? Do they flee and jump over obstacles in order to get away from the police? Something is wrong with this picture, and the police are not the ones at fault. Yes, it's sad that this man had to die... but why was he running from the police in that fashion immediately after multiple terrorist attacks in London's transportation systems? Any sane person, regardless of their country of origin, would stop for the police if they were asked... ESPECIALLY after the the tragic events surrounding London. The police in London are on hightened alert, and for good reason too. That man was just as responsible for his death as they were. For all we know, that man could've been a decoy... someone sent out to make the police look bad. Or it could've been just one tragic mistake. But why was he running? That's the question.

[Tremontixriffs]

Its a shame that these jerks are pulling this crap, all the negativity that the US and Great Britian recieve for their foreign policy makes me realize how messed up some people truly are. These people would rather ignore whats going on in the world today than do something about...I think Bill Clinton's job in office was to shake as many enemy hands as possible while setting us up for 9/11/01. All the criticism that Bush and Blair recieve about the war on terrorism and violating civil rights makes me laugh. As a human being I say that with these bombings people are going to slowly realize that hey we need to wake up and stop letting these terrorist ruin what makes this earth a wonderful place to be and that is free. These fanatics want us to return to the dark age where you had no security and evil ruled. They don't care about anything but death and until the world starts to fight alongside us Al Qeada will strike again and again britian, us, spain,egypt, ect. Georege w Bush may not be perfect but at least he has the balls unlike all the left wing democrats that held office in the past like bubba clinton and madelin albright, who by the way probably dined with these terrorists instead of fight them.As a country lets pray for Bush to make his last three years as pres count and do whatever it takes to wipe this scumm from the earth...Long live freedom , fuck al qaeda!

[Ana4Stapp]

I have a question? In Brazil... do they wear long winter overcoats during the summer? In Brazil... do they run from the police when asked to stop? Do they flee and jump over obstacles in order to get away from the police? Something is wrong with this picture, and the police are not the ones at fault. Yes, it's sad that this man had to die... but why was he running from the police in that fashion immediately after multiple terrorist attacks in London's transportation systems? Any sane person, regardless of their country of origin, would stop for the police if they were asked... ESPECIALLY after the the tragic events surrounding London. The police in London are on hightened alert, and for good reason too. That man was just as responsible for his death as they were. For all we know, that man could've been a decoy... someone sent out to make the police look bad. Or it could've been just one tragic mistake. But why was he running? That's the question.

Read this, Chase:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4713753.stm