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Old 05-12-2005, 12:19 AM   #1
Sincirr
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Can one lose their salvation???

What do U guys think???

Please include verses and perhaps if U can, cut and paste them here so its quicker to read them. If not thats cool, just post the verse at least.

This subject is driving me nuts and I would love to hear what U guysthink!
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Last edited by Sincirr : 05-12-2005 at 12:20 AM. Reason: Did I spell lose right, or is it loose???
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Old 05-12-2005, 10:56 AM   #2
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Quote: (Originally Posted by Sincirr) What do U guys think???

Please include verses and perhaps if U can, cut and paste them here so its quicker to read them. If not thats cool, just post the verse at least.

This subject is driving me nuts and I would love to hear what U guysthink!

I am definitely posting in this thread, but unfortunately I don't have time now. I will post later in the evening. But for the quick answer: We ALWAYS have the capability to be saved, but we must persevere in our Faith, yes.

LAter I will have verses, etc.
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Old 05-12-2005, 03:46 PM   #3
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Alright, here's the long answer. We cannot have our Salvation Guarunteed. We have the capability for Salvation guarunteed, but we cannot just be "saved" one day and then never lose our salvation no matter what. I don't have time to write out all the verses, but I will list them:

Matthew 19: 16-17

Jesus tells the man to keep the Commandments. Surely then, we must CONTINUE to keep the Commandments for our lives.

Matthew 24: 13

This one is absurdly clear. "But the one who perseveres until the end will be saved". I don't see how that allows for ANY other viewpoint.

Here is another amazingly clear verse:

Romans 11: 22-23

We can indeed be cut off. Thankfully, though, if we do not persist in our unbelief, we can be grafted back on.

1 Corinthians 9: 27, 10: 12

In chapter 9, Paul says (using a race as a metaphor) "I drive my body and train it", for fear that after having preached to others, "I myself should be disqualifed". That is very clear. If PAUL is not guarunteed Salvation, no one can be.

In chapter ten, verse 12, he says that whoever thinks he is standing securely should take care NOT TO FALL. Obviously them it is possible for us TO fall.

2 Peter 2: 20-21

This is yet another painfully clear passage that asserts once again, we can indeed fall away from Grace.
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Old 05-12-2005, 11:12 PM   #4
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First of all I would like to state that we cannot lose our salvation. Salvation is a gift from God, we don't deserve it, nor can we receive it by works.

"Matthew 19: 16-17

Jesus tells the man to keep the Commandments. Surely then, we must CONTINUE to keep the Commandments for our lives."


This is a good verse and I agree with your statement, but what does this verse and your statement have to do with losing your salvation? Are you saying that if we don't keep the commandments then we lose our salvation? If that is what you are saying, then wouldn't that be us doing works?
If you go on with this passage up to verse 27, you will see that, when speaking about Salvation, Jesus says, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."


"Matthew 24: 13

This one is absurdly clear. "But the one who perseveres until the end will be saved". I don't see how that allows for ANY other viewpoint."


You're right, it would be difficult to have any other viewpoint, but I will give you another one. The verses before 13 and after are speaking about the end of the age. In reference to verse 13, Jesus is not talking about Salvation. He is talking about being saved from the persecution they will receive. Jesus uses this same statement,"but he who stands firm to the end will be saved," in Matthew 10:22. My bible's commentary on this verse is this: "Standing firm to the end is not a way to be saved but the evidence that a person is really commited to Jesus. Persistence is not a means to earn salvation; it is the by-product of a truly devoted life."
Once again, I don't see how this verse refers to losing your salvation.


Romans 11: 22-23

We can indeed be cut off. Thankfully, though, if we do not persist in our unbelief, we can be grafted back on.


This is a difficult verse to interpret, but I think when you read the whole section it becomes more clear. Paul is refering to the nation of Israel in this passage, not any one individual. Abrahams faith is like the root of a productive tree, and the Jewish people are the tree's natural branches. Because of faithlessness, the Jews were the broken branches. Gentile believers have been grafted into the tree like a "wild olive shoot." Both Jews and Gentiles share the tree's nourishment based on faith in God; neither can rest on heritage or culture for salvation.


"1 Corinthians 9: 27, 10: 12

In chapter 9, Paul says (using a race as a metaphor) "I drive my body and train it", for fear that after having preached to others, "I myself should be disqualifed". That is very clear. If PAUL is not guarunteed Salvation, no one can be."


In reference to chapter 9, I can see where you would think that one can lose their salvation from reading this verse, but you are taking it out of context. My bible's commentary on 9:27 is this: "When Paul says he might be disqualified, he does not mean that he could lose his salvation, but rather that he could lose his privilege of telling others about Christ."
The whole metaphor of running the race is about how we should live our Christian life. That involves works and Romans 11:6 says, "And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace." This proves that these verses are not referring to losing your salvation.


"In chapter ten, verse 12, he says that whoever thinks he is standing securely should take care NOT TO FALL. Obviously them it is possible for us TO fall."

Yes, it is possible for us to fall, fall into temptation. This is not referring to salvation. If you read on and before this verse, it is referring to falling into temptation. This is basically saying that when you think you are strong, then you are weak. You end up relying on your own strength and not God's, this is when you are weak.


"2 Peter 2: 20-21

This is yet another painfully clear passage that asserts once again, we can indeed fall away from Grace."

Peter is speaking of a person who has learned about Christ and how to be saved, and has even been positively influenced by Christians, but then rejects the truth and returns to his or her sin. This person is worse off than before, because they rejected the only means of salvation.

Once again I believe that you cannot lose your salvation, but I think you have to call into question a persons initial proclamation into the faith. Please continue to post if you disagree. One other thing, how do I quote somebody without copy and paste. Thanks.

"Be still and know that I am God."
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Old 05-13-2005, 11:03 AM   #5
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Quote: (Originally Posted by dario) First of all I would like to state that we cannot lose our salvation. Salvation is a gift from God, we don't deserve it, nor can we receive it by works.

"Matthew 19: 16-17

Jesus tells the man to keep the Commandments. Surely then, we must CONTINUE to keep the Commandments for our lives."


This is a good verse and I agree with your statement, but what does this verse and your statement have to do with losing your salvation? Are you saying that if we don't keep the commandments then we lose our salvation? If that is what you are saying, then wouldn't that be us doing works?
If you go on with this passage up to verse 27, you will see that, when speaking about Salvation, Jesus says, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Actually, works are QUITE necessary for salvation, seeing as James says "We are justified by works and NOT by Faith alone", so yes, if someone goes around murdering, stealing, and adulterating, they can lose their salvation. Sure, all thigns are possible with God, but it says in Revelation, "Nothing unclean shall enter heaven" (not an exact quotation). If you have sin on your soul ("the wages of sin is death") then you can't enter heaven.


Quote: "Matthew 24: 13

This one is absurdly clear. "But the one who perseveres until the end will be saved". I don't see how that allows for ANY other viewpoint."


You're right, it would be difficult to have any other viewpoint, but I will give you another one. The verses before 13 and after are speaking about the end of the age. In reference to verse 13, Jesus is not talking about Salvation. He is talking about being saved from the persecution they will receive. Jesus uses this same statement,"but he who stands firm to the end will be saved," in Matthew 10:22. My bible's commentary on this verse is this: "Standing firm to the end is not a way to be saved but the evidence that a person is really commited to Jesus. Persistence is not a means to earn salvation; it is the by-product of a truly devoted life."
Once again, I don't see how this verse refers to losing your salvation.

If Jesus meerely meant that standing firm was the "by-product" of salvation, He would have said "He who is saved will stand firm to the end". He DOESN'T say that. He clearly says "He who perseveres will be saved". Notice, he says WILL BE, as if it is something we have to continue working towards.


Quote: Romans 11: 22-23

We can indeed be cut off. Thankfully, though, if we do not persist in our unbelief, we can be grafted back on.


This is a difficult verse to interpret, but I think when you read the whole section it becomes more clear. Paul is refering to the nation of Israel in this passage, not any one individual. Abrahams faith is like the root of a productive tree, and the Jewish people are the tree's natural branches. Because of faithlessness, the Jews were the broken branches. Gentile believers have been grafted into the tree like a "wild olive shoot." Both Jews and Gentiles share the tree's nourishment based on faith in God; neither can rest on heritage or culture for salvation.

I'm sorry, but you seem to just be jumping through hoops here to get your interpretation. He clearly states that branches have been cut OFF. Now, to be cut OFF they have to be ON there in the first place. And let's get something straight here, he is not talking about "unbelief" in the Mosaic law. Paul has HAMMERED the idea that Christians need also follow the Mosaic law. He is talking about belief in Jesus Christ. And if we falter in that belief we can be CUT OFF. There is no mincing words here. Paul just SAYS that we can be cut off. This has nothing to do with Abraham. Paul says that if we are believers but then persist in unbelief, we can be cut off. Nothing complex about it.

Quote: "1 Corinthians 9: 27, 10: 12

In chapter 9, Paul says (using a race as a metaphor) "I drive my body and train it", for fear that after having preached to others, "I myself should be disqualifed". That is very clear. If PAUL is not guarunteed Salvation, no one can be."


In reference to chapter 9, I can see where you would think that one can lose their salvation from reading this verse, but you are taking it out of context. My bible's commentary on 9:27 is this: "When Paul says he might be disqualified, he does not mean that he could lose his salvation, but rather that he could lose his privilege of telling others about Christ."
The whole metaphor of running the race is about how we should live our Christian life. That involves works and Romans 11:6 says, "And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace." This proves that these verses are not referring to losing your salvation.

Your Bible's commentary has some funny ideas. Where on earth do you get the idea that he is talking about the privilege of telling others abouth Christ? It never says anything REMOTELY like that in the passage. The only interpretation an honest reader could come to is that he is seapking of Salvation; if your interpretation is correct, the pasage basically reads "for fear that after having preached to others, I may no longer be able to preach to others". That is ridiculous. It only makes sense if Paul is basically saying that he is afraid that after having preached to others, he will lose his own salvation if he does not follow his own words. Your intperpretation is just reading into the text


Quote: "In chapter ten, verse 12, he says that whoever thinks he is standing securely should take care NOT TO FALL. Obviously them it is possible for us TO fall."

Yes, it is possible for us to fall, fall into temptation. This is not referring to salvation. If you read on and before this verse, it is referring to falling into temptation. This is basically saying that when you think you are strong, then you are weak. You end up relying on your own strength and not God's, this is when you are weak.

Fall into TEMPTATION?! What on earth? If we cannot lose our salvation, who CARES if we fall into temptation. If our salvation is ASSURED, this passage i nonsense. It basically states (according to your interpretation): Be careful not to fall into temptation, but it doesn't REALLY matter because you are going to heaven anyway! There is no reason at ALL to believe this is talking about anything other than threat to your salvation. Unless it is a threat to salvation, why worry that we may fall? Because we will still go right to Heaven.


Quote: "2 Peter 2: 20-21

This is yet another painfully clear passage that asserts once again, we can indeed fall away from Grace."

Peter is speaking of a person who has learned about Christ and how to be saved, and has even been positively influenced by Christians, but then rejects the truth and returns to his or her sin. This person is worse off than before, because they rejected the only means of salvation.

For the first time, I can actually envision a scenario where your interpretation could make sense: Someone finds out he needs to be saved and then doesn't do it. All alone, you might be able to explain this verse away. But in conjunction with all the other Bilical passages clearly stating we can lose our salvation if we fall into sin, this passage certainly only helps the idea.

Quote: Once again I believe that you cannot lose your salvation, but I think you have to call into question a persons initial proclamation into the faith. Please continue to post if you disagree. One other thing, how do I quote somebody without copy and paste. Thanks.

"Be still and know that I am God."

You press the "reply with quote" link. Also, if you have to call into question someone's initial proclomation of faith, they areen't REALLY guarunteed, are they, since you willl never TRUELY know whether or not it was a real declaration of Faith? Frankly, the protestant position on this jsut doesn't make any sense at all. If one believes in Christ, declares him to be their personal Lord and Savior, they are saved. And then they can go murder civilizations, commit countless adulteries, start blaspheming God, and they are STILL SAVED because one can't lose your salvation. Or, you could say "well they weren't saved in the first place". Well if they weren't saved in the first place, what if someone who isn't saved in the firt place lives a fine life thinking he is saved, but isn't? Well, then you say "He WAS saved in the first place". Well, frankly, I find this an amazing position, and one clearly has to start reading the Bible with that intention ALREADY IN MIND, because an honest reading of the Bible would produce no such confusing, and completely strange doctrine.

But please, continue to post if you somehow feel otherwise. This has been interesting.
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Old 05-13-2005, 12:39 PM   #6
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[quote=uncertaindrumer]Actually, works are QUITE necessary for salvation, seeing as James says "We are justified by works and NOT by Faith alone", so yes, if someone goes around murdering, stealing, and adulterating, they can lose their salvation. Sure, all thigns are possible with God, but it says in Revelation, "Nothing unclean shall enter heaven" (not an exact quotation). If you have sin on your soul ("the wages of sin is death") then you can't enter heaven.


By reading your statements I can see that you are gung-ho with the idea that you can lose your salvation, but can you honestly say that works are necessary for it?? So are you saying that if tomorrow I go and steal food from a store that I lose my salvation? Nothing we can do will get us into heaven, absolutely nothing. It is by the grace of God that we enter heaven. Again, Romans 11:6 says, "And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were grace would no longer be grace."


If Jesus meerely meant that standing firm was the "by-product" of salvation, He would have said "He who is saved will stand firm to the end". He DOESN'T say that. He clearly says "He who perseveres will be saved". Notice, he says WILL BE, as if it is something we have to continue working towards.


Would you agree with me that the passage you are using is Jesus talking about the end of the age? Because if you do, then you will see that Jesus is talking about persevering to the end. When saints are being persecuted for their faith, they need to stand firm so that at the end of it all they will be saved from their persecution.

I'm sorry, but you seem to just be jumping through hoops here to get your interpretation. He clearly states that branches have been cut OFF. Now, to be cut OFF they have to be ON there in the first place. And let's get something straight here, he is not talking about "unbelief" in the Mosaic law. Paul has HAMMERED the idea that Christians need also follow the Mosaic law. He is talking about belief in Jesus Christ. And if we falter in that belief we can be CUT OFF. There is no mincing words here. Paul just SAYS that we can be cut off. This has nothing to do with Abraham. Paul says that if we are believers but then persist in unbelief, we can be cut off. Nothing complex about it.


It might seem like I am jumping through hoops to get my interpretation, but I can say the same thing for you. You are trying to fit these verses into your own interpretation. I can say the same thing for myself, but I am taking the verses in the context they are used, not twisting them into what I want them to say.


Your Bible's commentary has some funny ideas. Where on earth do you get the idea that he is talking about the privilege of telling others abouth Christ? It never says anything REMOTELY like that in the passage. The only interpretation an honest reader could come to is that he is seapking of Salvation; if your interpretation is correct, the pasage basically reads "for fear that after having preached to others, I may no longer be able to preach to others". That is ridiculous. It only makes sense if Paul is basically saying that he is afraid that after having preached to others, he will lose his own salvation if he does not follow his own words. Your intperpretation is just reading into the text


Funny ideas?? I would probably believe what my bible's commentary has to say about a verse before what you say, considering the fact that the people who write these commentary's are scholars and experts on the bible.

"It only makes sense if Paul is basically saying that he is afraid that after having preached to others, he will lose his own salvation if he does not follow his own words."

No, it does not mean that he will lose his salvation if he does not follow his own words. It means practicing what you preach. If he his telling people how to live and not taking his own advice, then he's being hypocritical. What you are basically saying is that we all need to be perfect Christians to get into heaven. What you are saying almost sounds like what the Pharisees believed. IT IS BY GODS GRACE THAT WE GET INTO HEAVEN NOTHING ELSE. There is no arguing that.


Fall into TEMPTATION?! What on earth? If we cannot lose our salvation, who CARES if we fall into temptation. If our salvation is ASSURED, this passage i nonsense. It basically states (according to your interpretation): Be careful not to fall into temptation, but it doesn't REALLY matter because you are going to heaven anyway! There is no reason at ALL to believe this is talking about anything other than threat to your salvation. Unless it is a threat to salvation, why worry that we may fall? Because we will still go right to Heaven.

I have a big problem with this statement, unfortunately I have to go back to work. I will be back tonight however, to give you my thoughts on this and I will elaborate more on my reasonings.

Even though we have differing views on this subject, it is good to argue about it because it gets us further into the bible and our own learnings. I hope that nothing I say is offensive and I hope we can continue this. Thank you for this wonderful time.
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Old 05-13-2005, 02:28 PM   #7
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Alright, first, God's grace is INDEED the only way we can get into Heaven, I am not arguing that. God's grace works through both Faith AND works though, and I want you to explain to me how you can say works are useless when James specifically says "You are justified by works and not by faith alone".

Second, I have to think that an honest observer would see th line "Be careful lest you fall" would mean that we can ACTUALLY FALL. You are basically saying he can't.

The other passages we could debate all day and never come to a conclusion. You are going to interpret it the way you want to. You say you are basing it on context but that isn't true. CLEARLY the context of being "cut off" is the loss of Grace. But still, you and I could argue about it all day long. The real question is: How do you know your interpretation is correct? How do you know mine is wrong?

And sure, your Bible's commentaries are written by scholars--protestant scholars. They are going to be just as jaded as you and are going to LOOK for ways to explain away the obvious condemnation of guarunteed salvation. This is how salvation occurs:

Through no action of our own, God gives us grace. We don't deserve it, but we get it. Through that grace we can both have Faith and do Good Works for the Lord, both of which are necessary. If we stop believing, or we fall into sin, we can lose that grace. We can always get it back, but we CAN lose it.

And yes, to get into Heaven, our souls have to be PERFECT. It says in revelation that nothing unclean shall enter Heaven, which means nothing with Sin. Now, this is where purgatory comes in, but that is an entirely different issue. But for you to claim that you can just go around comitting sin after sin and never lose your salvation is erroneous. If that were true, the commandments would be useless, Jesus teachings to love one another would be useless, etc. etc.

Quote: No, it does not mean that he will lose his salvation if he does not follow his own words. It means practicing what you preach. If he his telling people how to live and not taking his own advice, then he's being hypocritical. What you are basically saying is that we all need to be perfect Christians to get into heaven. What you are saying almost sounds like what the Pharisees believed. IT IS BY GODS GRACE THAT WE GET INTO HEAVEN NOTHING ELSE. There is no arguing that.

So he says he does not stand acquitted because otherwise he will be a hypocrite? And yet, a hypocrite who will still get into heaven, right, because he is "saved"? Why on earth would he even bring this up if there was not a REAL TANGIBLE DANGER? He wouldn't, to put it frankly.

Quote: Would you agree with me that the passage you are using is Jesus talking about the end of the age? Because if you do, then you will see that Jesus is talking about persevering to the end. When saints are being persecuted for their faith, they need to stand firm so that at the end of it all they will be saved from their persecution.

He could be talking about the end of the age, He could be talking about the end of your life, he could be tlaking about BOTH since Scripture is boundless and can easily get two points acros for the price of one. But you don't know for SURE what he is talking about do you? Because you only have your own, fallible interpretation of the Bible. If you can interpret it one way and I can interpret it another, how are we supposed to know which is correct? In a perfect world where everyone was supremely honest with themselves it would be no problem, but we don't LIVE in a perfect world. There are THOUSANDS of different interpretations of the Bible. HOW DO YOU KNOW YOURS IS CORRECT?

I also thank you for arguing charitably, I hope you don't take anything I say as aggressive. This has been great.
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Old 05-13-2005, 02:34 PM   #8
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I would also encourage everyone to read This Article
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Old 05-13-2005, 11:54 PM   #9
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I would have to agree with you that we could argue all day and not get anywhere. Even though I disagree with most of what you said, it doesn't really matter where either of us stand. The only thing that matters is if we are living the way Christ would like us to live. But there is still one thing that you said that bothers me.


"Fall into TEMPTATION?! What on earth? If we cannot lose our salvation, who CARES if we fall into temptation. If our salvation is ASSURED, this passage i nonsense. It basically states (according to your interpretation): Be careful not to fall into temptation, but it doesn't REALLY matter because you are going to heaven anyway! There is no reason at ALL to believe this is talking about anything other than threat to your salvation. Unless it is a threat to salvation, why worry that we may fall? Because we will still go right to Heaven."


Whether this verse is talking about falling from temptation or not, these statements are unbiblical. "If we cannot lose our salvation, who cares if we fall into temptation." "Why worry that we may fall...we still go right to heaven?" God loves us. The worst thing for Him to see, is us fall into a sin, such as sexual immorality. Why have the mindset that,"well, it's ok if I screw up this time because God will forgive me and I'm going to heaven anyway?" How is that helping our walk with Christ? Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but thats what it looks like your saying.

Let me get something straight. Are you saying that if a Christian commits adultery, which a lot do, they will have their salvation taken away? Or if a Christian steals, they get their salvation taken away? Have you lived your life so perfectly that you think you will not lose your salvation, if this is what you believe? If you think this is true, then every Christian on earth will and has lost their salvation. "For if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing." Don't get me wrong. Works are very important, but they are not a requirement for salvation.
Ephesians 2:8,9 says,"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-AND THIS NOT FROM YOURSELVES, it is the gift of God-not by works, so that no one can boast." I would say thats a pretty clear picture. So overall my belief is this-Salvation is a gift from God, nothing we can do will ever get us salvation. So in turn, if nothing we can do will earn us salvation, then nothing we can do will cause us to lose our salvation.

I brought this question up at work and the majority of the people I talked to believed you cannot lose your salvation and then gave their reasonings. One guy did say he thought he could lose it and he used the parable of the lost sheep to back it up. I don't know if that is accurate or not, but this discussion could go on and on. I just know that I will never lose my salvation, not because it is my belief, but because I will not stray from the path.
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Old 05-14-2005, 12:47 AM   #10
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The problem here is that Christians who believe in assurance of salvation are really confusing the concept with redemption.
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Old 05-14-2005, 01:20 AM   #11
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Indeed, that is COMPLETELY true. We are REDEEMED and will always be, but that has nothing to do with losing Sanctifying Grace.

Dario, you seem amazed that I believe commiting adultery would lose Salvation for you. Why? If we don't need to keep the Commandments, or worry about sinning, then what do you mean?

And also, I am NOT saying that one should just fall into temptation left and right. I'm saying that by YOUR LOGIC, we shouldn't care. You say God doesn't want us to fall into temptation... Umm, well, he msut not care THAT much if He doesn't even DO anything about it! And by the way, the verse you quoted also ends with "for we are His handiwork, created by God for the GOOD WORKS Jesus has prepared in advance" (not an exact quotation). I can easily say that this passage is entirely correct. We ARE saved by grace throguh Faith, and we cannot EARN our salvation.

But why don't YOU explain to me how works cannot be necessary, when "Faith without works is dead"?

Also, if we can come to no agreement, who is to be the final authority? The Bible? Because the Bible supposedly is your final authority, an yet thousands of different protestants believe thousands of different things. So when I ask you how you know YOUR interpretation is correct, you really have no way of knowing.
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Old 05-14-2005, 07:34 PM   #12
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I believe that,Yes,a person could lose their salvation. For instance,if someone excepts Christ and doesn't chance from the ways that they had vefore,than they really aren't following Christ. There has to be a change from within the heart,and unless they ask for forgiveness and tell Him that they are sorry and really mean it for change,than there is no forgiveness from Him.
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Old 05-14-2005, 11:16 PM   #13
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Ok, there are a lot of things that I want to respond to, but my mind is getting jumbled. So I'm going to focus on one thing for now. This might get long, and so I apologize for that. First things first.


"But why don't YOU explain to me how works cannot be necessary, when "Faith without works is dead"? "

I will try to explain to you as best I can why I believe that works are not necessary for salvation. I am going to use verses from the bible and then include commentary on the verse. Now I know you don't agree with my bible's commentary, but I believe that it is accurate.

James 2:14-"What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?"

-When someone claims to have faith, what he or she may have is intellectual assent-aggreement with a set of Christian teachings-and as such it would be incomplete faith. True faith transforms our conduct as well as our thoughts. If our lives remain unchanged, we don't truly believe the truths we claim to believe.

What I think James is saying is that if works aren't a natural product of faith then it's not real faith. It is basically just a knowledge of Christian teachings and thats all. The last thing he says in that verse is, 'can such faith save him?' No, it cannot because its not true faith.

James 2:17-"In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."

-We cannot earn our salvation by serving and obeying God. But such actions show that our commitment to God is real. Deeds of loving service are not a substitute for, but rather a verification of our faith in Christ.

James 2:18-"But someone will say, 'You have faith; I have deeds.' Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do."

-At first glance, this verse seems to contradict Romans 3:28, 'man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.' Deeper investigation, however, shows that the teachings of James and Paul are not at odds. While it is true that our good deeds can never earn salvation, true faith always results in a changed life and good deeds. Paul speaks against those who try to be saved by deeds instead of true faith; James speaks against those who confuse mere intellectual assent with true faith. True faith involves a commitment of your whole self to God.

Ok, there is my explanation of the verses you used out of James. You ask how can works not be necessary for salvation. Yes, faith without works is dead, we see that James says this. But then we also see Paul saying the very opposite. How do you explain this? Just ignore Paul's teachings and say, 'yes, James has it right.' I believe that the explanation I have above clears that up. You may disagree. If so, I would like to hear your reasonings.

Galatians 2:16-"know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified."

-If observing the Jewish laws cannot justify us, why should we still obey the 10 Commandments and other Old Testament laws? We know that Paul was not saying the law is bad, because in another letter he wrote, 'The law is holy' (Romans 7:12). Instead, he is saying that the law can never make us acceptable to God. The law still has an important role to play in the life of a Christian. The law: (1) guards us from sin by giving us standards for behavior; (2) convicts us of sin, leaving us the opportunity to ask for God's forgiveness; (3) drives us to trust in the sufficiency of Christ, because we can never keep the 10 Commandments perfectly. The law cannot possibly save us. But after we have become Christians, it can guide us to live as God requires.


"Dario, you seem amazed that I believe commiting adultery would lose Salvation for you. Why? If we don't need to keep the Commandments, or worry about sinning, then what do you mean?"

First of all, I didn't say that we shouldn't keep the commandments, or worry about sinning. The commandments are very important, a guide on how we should live, but they are not the keys to heaven or hell. I would say that my explanations above explain this very well.
Please clear this up for me, this would help me get my thoughts out easier. Do you believe that if you screw up and commit adultery or steal from somebody, then you are going to lose your salvation? Now, I'm not talking about some guy on the street commiting adultery, I'm talking about a Christian who has true faith in Jesus Christ. We all screw up some time or another. We are not perfect. Would you agree??? That is the purpose of Forgiveness. We ask God to forgive us of our sins.
1 John 3:4-6-"Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him."

-There is a difference between committing a sin and continuing to sin. Even the most faithful believers sometimes commit sins, but they do not cherish a particular sin and choose to commit it. A believer who commits a sin repents, confesses, and finds forgiveness. A person who continues to sin, by contrast, is not sorry for what he is doing. Thus this person never confesses and never receives forgiveness. Such a person is in opposition to God, no matter what religious claims they make.


"And also, I am NOT saying that one should just fall into temptation left and right. I'm saying that by YOUR LOGIC, we shouldn't care. You say God doesn't want us to fall into temptation... Umm, well, he msut not care THAT much if He doesn't even DO anything about it!"

If going by my logic that you cannot lose your salvation, and you fall into temptation and don't care, that is the wrong mindset. Just because our salvation is guaranteed (as my belief is), it doesn't mean that we can run around humping whoever we want and cussing like a sailor. When we sin it does hurt us, and our relationship with God. No, it doesn't take our salvation away, but it does distance ourselves from God. It gives us a guilty feeling and keeps us from doing the good that we were intended to do. I screw up all of the time. No, I don't go screwing around with other girls or commit murder, but I do sin. There might be a commandment that I disobey, or I might get angry and it turns to rage. There are tons of things that I do and that everyone does that goes against God's word. But that doesn't mean he takes away our salvation for punishment. He might discipline us so that we learn from our mistakes, and if we are truly sorry for what we did, then we will try to fix it. Take pornography for example. Would you not say that this is a sin and something that God speaks out against? Millions and millions of men around the world are trapped in the world of pornography, and a majority of those men are Christian. It is a constant battle for men, and 99.9% of the time men fail. But God will not punish us for it by taking our salvation away. We need to keep working at it until the day comes when we have finally beaten it. Sadly, for most men that day doesn't come until the day they die. Is hell the right place for these Christian men who have battled this sin for their whole life? Even Christ says that looking lustfully at a woman is commiting adultery in your heart. Who can say with honesty, they've never lusted after a woman? David, a man after God's own heart, commited adultery and yet God told him he would be in heaven with him. Shall we keep on committing adultery then? No, we need to pray for forgiveness and change. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23


"Also, if we can come to no agreement, who is to be the final authority? The Bible? Because the Bible supposedly is your final authority, an yet thousands of different protestants believe thousands of different things. So when I ask you how you know YOUR interpretation is correct, you really have no way of knowing."

It's true we don't know who's interpretation is the correct one, and honestly it doesn't really matter. I believe you cannot lose your salvation. Does that mean that I go around doing whatever I want. No, I fear God and love Him and I try with my whole heart to obey his commands because I love Him and He loves me. I realize I'm a sinner and I ask for forgiveness and try to turn away from my sin. Whether we believe that we can lose our salvation or not, if we seek God with our whole heart and choose to obey his commands, then together we will be standing next to each other in heaven.
Please don't let this last sentance or 2 stop you from continuing this debate, I find this very interesting.

With love, Dario
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Old 05-15-2005, 01:25 PM   #14
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You did not deal with most obvious of James verses: "You see then that we are justified by WORKS and not by faith alone"

The ONLY TIME in the Bible that the phrase "faith alone" is used, it is preceded by "not by". Now, Paul does indeed hammer the notion that we can be saved by works, and I agree. We can't. We also can't be saved by Faith, since our Faith is not perfect either. We cannot OBLIGATE God to save us because He is perfect and we are not. That is what Paul is teaching. A very good book on this sujbect is "Not by Faith alone" by Robert Sungenis. It shows in much greater detail than I have the time for, that Paul is not condemning all works, but merely saying we cannot use the Law to to obligate God in anyway. Jews would obviously be SAYING this if they believed that Gentiles needed to be cirumcised to be saved, and Paul consistently smashes this notion.

Yes, commiting adultery loses Sanctifying Grace. When Jesus died on the cross for us, He eternally Redeemed humanity. There is NOTHING we can do to "un-redeem" ourselves, so to speak. But we still have to be justified. We are born with Original sin on our souls, and after we get rid of it through Baptism, we are perfect, and ready to enter Heaven. Unfortunately, plenty of people live long enough to fall into sin. There IS SIN WHICH IS NOT DEADLY, a fact of which John makes us aware. But if there is sin that is NOT deadly, than there is sin which IS deadly, which means obviously, that we can lose our sanctifying Grace! Otherwise, there would be no such thing as deadly sin!

You keep saying we should not sin against God and should try and follow his laws, and yet, you at the same time implicate that we don't NEED to. I find this a gross misunderstanding of not only the Bible, but also the reason and Common sense which God gave us. Why would there BE laws if breaking them didn't entail anything? Do you truely believe that once you have been saved you can commit adultery over and OVER but never lose anything for it? I don't. Commiting a deadly sin such as that kills the Sanctifying Grace in our soul. Thankfully, God is a merciful God and will forgive us, once again sanctifying us and making us fit for Heaven, but that doesn't mean we can just do whatever we want and never worry about consequences.

If a Christian commits adultery, he is willfully and knowlingy breaking God's law, and thus, willfully and knowingly rejecting God! Now, you might believe that he is still saved, but if someone who rejects God is saved, then we should ALL just be saved by saying that little prayer of yours and then going on with our sinful lives. Excuse the sarcasm, but frankly it fits, and I don't see how you can negotiate that view of salvation with the fact that it is obviously difficult to get into Heaven, and that MANY are going to Hell, the unfortunate truth of which is readily attested to in the Bible.
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Old 05-17-2005, 11:03 PM   #15
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i dont have any scriptures right now im late on the topic But just to be brife on how i feel about it ...SALVATION IS A GIFT THAT IS FREE WHOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE LORD THY GOD SHALL BE SAVED ...And Those Who Have Fell Along The Way Which Is Prefered To Backsliders...Which The Lord Said He Was Married To ...SALVATION IS A ROAD A PATH That Follows A Lot Of Perversance Diffrent For Each Soul That Walks The Path Of Salvation I For One Believe That Salvation Is Always With Us ...And As Far Has Someone Loosing It all together ...i cant imangine what kind of person that would be To Say Lord I dont need you and i dont need your help and i dont want any part of savaltion ...And Perhaps For One Who Just Mite Have These Thoughts In Mind for who am i to say that person may be on his or her way to beautiful Relationship with the master ... And Just In Brife Thoughts I Dont Really Believe No Child Of God Can Loose Their Salvation ...He Died For Us All And Gaves Us All Many Paths to choose from somtimes we think its up to us what we do with those paths ...But Think Twice GOD IS CONTROL ALWAYS FOR EACH AND EVERYONE OF US ...SAINTS SINNERS BACKSLIDERS PATH FINDERS PATH LEAVERS AND WANDERS ...FOR THE LORD THY GOD WORKETH EVERYTHING PERFECTLY ACORDING TO HIS WILL .... PEACE
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