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Old 12-27-2004, 12:41 PM   #1
facelessman
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Baptism for the dead

is this ordinance necessary? if not, then why did they do it in the primative church of Jesus Christ? "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?"
1 cor. 15:29
i know of only one church that does baptisms for the dead. which do you think it is?

what are your thoughts on this subject?
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Old 12-27-2004, 08:15 PM   #2
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Old 02-10-2005, 07:32 AM   #3
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Quote: (Originally Posted by facelessman) is this ordinance necessary? if not, then why did they do it in the primative church of Jesus Christ? "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?"
1 cor. 15:29
i know of only one church that does baptisms for the dead. which do you think it is?

what are your thoughts on this subject?
Affirms in me that there is all the more reason for there to be someone or a few, overseeing churches, or they start doing stupid things.

Paul was saying that the practice of the Corinthian church was wrong.

There was a line in the mormon church that did it, so it wasnt just the primitive church of Christ.

And also even praying for the dead, the catholic practice, is not too biblical! There is some crazy stuff out there!
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Old 02-14-2005, 09:58 AM   #4
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now, if you read tht passage carefully, you would see that some of the saints in corinth were doubting the resurrection. hence, the apostle Paul asking them if the dead dont rise, why do they do the baptism...meaning that the dead would someday rise. remember what Jesus Christ did between the time he was crucified and resurrected...He went to preach to the spirits in priosn. why? theat they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. remember: if a man isnt born of water and the spirit, then he cannot enter into the kingdom of Heaven. what about those who have died without having a chance to even hear about the Gospel? im here and africa right now, andi have met tons of ppl who have not even hear about Jesus Christ. so how can they be help accountable for not being baptised if they didnt have a chance to be baptised, or even have faith? hence the original church of Jesus Christ, and the restored church of Jesus Christ does baptisms for the dead.
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Is that what you call a getaway?
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B/c i've seen more spine in jellyfish
and ive seen more guts on 11 year old kids.
Have another drink and drive yourself home
I hope theres ice on all the roads
and think of me when you forget your seatbelt
and again when your head goes through the windshield.
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Old 02-15-2005, 03:19 AM   #5
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Quote: (Originally Posted by FM) the restored church of Jesus Christ does baptisms for the dead.
The restored...dont even get me started.

So lemme and everyone else here get this straight....
The Church of Jesus Chirst of the Latter-day Saints believes that people can be saved after they die by having them baptized.
Correct? After they die?

Quote: (Originally Posted by FM) remember what Jesus Christ did between the time he was crucified and resurrected...He went to preach to the spirits in priosn.

Wha??? Man, wheres that from??? Show me. Gimme a verse, elder.
Quote: (Originally Posted by FM) what about those who have died without having a chance to even hear about the Gospel?

The corinthian church were told that they were wrong and I am telling you that you are as well. A sprinkling on a babys head or dunking a corpse in water is not going to save someone. It is their decision. Nothing the perfect Latter-day saints can do to change that! Point is, they will meet Him, say that their dead body was baptised and He will say, "I never Knew you", even to some who think that they rebuked demons in His name.

You can dig up every grave and dunk dead folks in water, but it wont do a thing; U can read other books but the Holy Bible, and that wont do U any good as well...

Oh and now that U R an elder they must have confided in you about getting your own planet. Right? So what do U think of that? We never heard back from U.
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Old 02-15-2005, 03:32 AM   #6
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Sincirr is right the christian walk is all about a personal relationship and every ordiance can be practised whether commanded by christ (eg communion) or an unbiblical one such as this and it will do you no good whatsoever. in fact someone can be a true christian and not be baptised although if they refuse to obey the command for that ordiance then questions perhaps need to be asked.
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Old 02-18-2005, 05:34 PM   #7
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Quote: (Originally Posted by Sincirr) The restored...dont even get me started..
whatcha got?

Quote: (Originally Posted by Sincirr) So lemme and everyone else here get this straight....
The Church of Jesus Chirst of the Latter-day Saints believes that people can be saved after they die by having them baptized.
Correct? After they die?.

congrats, youre learning



Quote: (Originally Posted by Sincirr) Wha??? Man, wheres that from??? Show me. Gimme a verse, elder.

John 5:25 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."
John 5:28 "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice"
1 peter 3:19 "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison"

any questions?

Quote: (Originally Posted by Sincirr) The corinthian church were told that they were wrong.
nope, try again
Quote: (Originally Posted by Sincirr) A sprinkling on a babys head.

sorry, we dont baptise babies, and we do baptism by immersion.
now lets review the nessecity of baptism:
John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
John 3:5 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God"
Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be [/b] baptized [/b]
every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 10:48 "And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days."
Acts 22:16 "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and [/b]
be baptized[/b], and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."
Titus 3:5 "Not by works of arighteousness which we have done, but according to his bmercy he saved us, by the [/b]
washing[/b] of regeneration, and drenewing of the Holy Ghost;
1 peter 3:21 "The like figure whereunto [/b] even baptism doth also now save us [/b] (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

I think thats enough for now
oh yeah, we dont dig up bodies, but through the restored priesthood, we are baptised for them.
anyway, continuing on those who dont think baptism is necessary(sp?) anymore:
Galatians 1:6-7 "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ."
2 timothy 4:3-4 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.





Quote: (Originally Posted by Sincirr) Oh and now that U R an elder they must have confided in you about getting your own planet. Right? So what do U think of that? We never heard back from U.
thats right "Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth."
__________________
Is that what you call a getaway?
Tell me what you got away with
B/c i've seen more spine in jellyfish
and ive seen more guts on 11 year old kids.
Have another drink and drive yourself home
I hope theres ice on all the roads
and think of me when you forget your seatbelt
and again when your head goes through the windshield.
Seventy Times Seven- Brand new
Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2005, 06:28 PM   #8
aussiecreeder
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Quote: (Originally Posted by facelessman)

I think thats enough for now
oh yeah, we dont dig up bodies, but through the restored priesthood, we are baptised for them.
anyway, continuing on those who dont think baptism is necessary(sp?) anymore:
Galatians 1:6-7 "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ."
2 timothy 4:3-4 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.







those two verses you quoted there don't even talk about baptism yet alone mention the word.
__________________
She never told a lie,
Well, might of told a lie.
But never lived one.
Didnít have a life.
Didnít have a life.
But surely saved one.
Alright, now itís time for us to let you go.

Tool
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Old 02-18-2005, 11:18 PM   #9
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Quote: (Originally Posted by Sincirr) The corinthian church were told that they were wrong and I am telling you that you are as well. A sprinkling on a babys head or dunking a corpse in water is not going to save someone. It is their decision. Nothing the perfect Latter-day saints can do to change that! Point is, they will meet Him, say that their dead body was baptised and He will say, "I never Knew you", even to some who think that they rebuked demons in His name.

You can dig up every grave and dunk dead folks in water, but it wont do a thing; U can read other books but the Holy Bible, and that wont do U any good as well...
Shows how much you know right there. Baptism for the dead doesn't involve dunking a corpse. You're so far off it's not even funny.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Sincirr) Oh and now that U R an elder they must have confided in you about getting your own planet. Right? So what do U think of that? We never heard back from U.
Again, very wrong. No one gets their own planet. There is nothing that says anyone can or has. See, you think you know things about the LDS church, but you don't.


On a side note, I can't remember the verse offhand, but it says that you must be baptized to be saved. Is it rational to think that if one dies without being baptized, they cannot be saved? Jesus said that everyone would have the oppurtuninty, but not everyone who has died has. So is there no hope for them? Wouldn't God have compassion and continue his work?


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Old 02-21-2005, 09:44 AM   #10
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Quote: (Originally Posted by aussiecreeder) those two verses you quoted there don't even talk about baptism yet alone mention the word.
maybe because i wasnt talking about baptism. i was talking about apostasy.
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Is that what you call a getaway?
Tell me what you got away with
B/c i've seen more spine in jellyfish
and ive seen more guts on 11 year old kids.
Have another drink and drive yourself home
I hope theres ice on all the roads
and think of me when you forget your seatbelt
and again when your head goes through the windshield.
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Old 02-21-2005, 11:24 AM   #11
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Quote: (Originally Posted by Higher_Desire) Shows how much you know right there. Baptism for the dead doesn't involve dunking a corpse. You're so far off it's not even funny.

On a side note, I can't remember the verse offhand, but it says that you must be baptized to be saved. Is it rational to think that if one dies without being baptized, they cannot be saved? Jesus said that everyone would have the oppurtuninty, but not everyone who has died has. So is there no hope for them? Wouldn't God have compassion and continue his work?


OK I understand that in the Church of LDS you baptize the dead by someone standing in and representing the person. is this a correct understanding?

If so the other people are making the choice not the individual themselves, otherwise they would have done so while living. They had their time on earth and if they die suddenly so be it. They had the choice before...they chose not to. We cannot baptize someone who is dead, did not make the choice for themselves, however we can hope God shows his mercy, but it is clearly stated that you have to be baptized.

As for those who truly have not heard about Christ or God, well we have to hope there as well, but then again, it says go and make disciples of all nations, so it is our duty to make sure they have heard and have the chance to make that choice.

So it all comes down to the individuals choice to accept christ. No one else can do that for you.

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Old 02-21-2005, 11:56 AM   #12
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Quote: (Originally Posted by facelessman) is this ordinance necessary? if not, then why did they do it in the primative church of Jesus Christ? "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?"
1 cor. 15:29
i know of only one church that does baptisms for the dead. which do you think it is?

what are your thoughts on this subject?


The first part is referring back to the resurrection of Christ...."if the dead rise not at all?". Paul is making a case for the resurrection of Christ...because he was dead and rose again. It is for the doubters basically in modern terms- Why else would you partake in this practice unless you truly believed Jesus rose and that you or your friends/family could rise (eternal life)?'

make sense? He is not telling them to do this or that it is correct, he is simply saying well you must believe in it if you are doing these actions.

IF you read the next versus...he says "And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? I die every day- I mean that brothers- just as surely as I glory over you in Christ Jesus our Lord. If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus for merely human reasons, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised, " Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die." 1 Corinthians 30-32

See here Paul is continuing his thought and saying, If we do not raise from the dead when we die, if we do not recieve eternal life, if christ had not risen then why do we risk our lives every day. He is saying believe in christ and believe in the resurrection and you can be raised and have eternal life.

Furthermore go back to the classic John 3:16 but lets look at the whole paragraph so John 3: 16-21
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the lifght for the fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plaingly that what he has done has been done through God."

Highlighted in bold, I have the key ingredients. To have eternal life we must accept Jesus as the Savior. If we do not, we die and do not recieve eternal life. Therefore how can the dead make this choice...they cannot. Nor can any person stand in and make this choice for them. They had to make the choice while living.

Now as in special cases such as children....Jesus said to make ourselves like children for the kingdom of heaven, meaning innocent...i believe a child who does not know right and wrong yet will be shown mercy...but obviously God holds the key. As to an adult who dies suddenly in an unexpected car crash...well too bad they had years to make the decision...they didnt. That was their choice...If it was up to others to make that choice...well then why not do it while that person is still alive? Because we know it doesnt work. We have to choose Christ as our savior, and thats how we get to heaven. No other way.

Last edited by Alter Shredder : 02-21-2005 at 02:19 PM.
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Old 02-21-2005, 03:48 PM   #13
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I would comment to all of this but im noy smart enough here to back all the scriptures I agree With You Alter S. On Somethings But I Also Agree More With Dan In Other Matters But The Babtizm Its Self Is Sacrafice Of Ourself To Be Closer To God And You Must Be Ready Take The Example Of Christ He Was Also Babtized So Yes I Believe The Babtism Is A Must And Works Out Different For Everyone On Their Salvations Path One Faith One Lord One Babtism Nobody Is Above It It Is A Must Have It All Depends I believe When That Person Is Ready To Take That Step Matt.13,17 Then Cometeth Jesus From Galilee To Jordan Unto John To Be Babtized Of Him But John Forbad Him SAY I HAVE NEED TO BE BABTIZED And Comest Thou To Me And Jesus Anwsering Said Unto Him SUFFER IT TO BE SO NOW FOR THUS BECOMETH US TO FULFIL ALL RIGHTEOUNESS Ok If You Will Notice After The Babtism Jesus Was Prepared For The Temptation In The Wilderness I believe The Babtizm Was A Must Have To Overcome TRIALS The Spirt Is Willing But The Flesh Is Weak Our Flesh Dies Daliy With The Babtizm It Is A Must Have For Your Own Good, THERE COMETH ONE MIGHTIER THAN I AFTER ME THE LATCHET OF WHOSE SHOES i,AM NOT WORTHY TO STOOP DOWN AND UNLOOSE I INDEED HAVE BABTIZED YOU WITH WATER BUT HE SHALL BABTIZE YOU WITH THE HOLY GHOST The Time Is Fulfilled And The Kingdom Of God Is At Hand Repent Ye And Believe The Gospel
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Old 02-21-2005, 06:40 PM   #14
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i agree 100% that we must be baptized, i never said otherwise. I just know that we have to choose to be baptized ourselves. I cannot make that choice for you creedsister, just as you cannot for me. That is why baptism of the dead does not work. It has to be a personal choice for salvation.

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Old 02-23-2005, 05:07 PM   #15
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as you can imagine, i have met alot of ppl who have never heard of christ. if thats the case, imagine the millions of ppl that have died without ever hearing the gospel. how can they be held accountable? how can the Almighty Judge refuse them on grounds of them not having faith or being baptised? thats why the gospel is preached to the spirits in prison "for this cause is the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit" 1 peter 4:6. now when a person that is dead has baptism done for them by someone on the earth, they still have a chance to accept or reject it. its still up to them.
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B/c i've seen more spine in jellyfish
and ive seen more guts on 11 year old kids.
Have another drink and drive yourself home
I hope theres ice on all the roads
and think of me when you forget your seatbelt
and again when your head goes through the windshield.
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