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Old 02-11-2004, 11:20 AM   #31
american_bad_a$
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that mas not my quote, obviously, but yes, you are right, bgivens. God new everything that would happen. he planed it. he is sovereign and that means he is omnipotents and in complete and utter control, but i think you alrady knew that. but yeah, God planned and new eveything that was gonna happen.

i don't understand how people can say other wise. the bible is so clear on matters like these.
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Old 02-12-2004, 11:54 AM   #32
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Quote: (Originally Posted by bgivens33) So you are saying an omnicient and omnipotent God didn't know that Adam and Eve would eat from a tree and then had to improvise via Jesus?? Hmmmmm..... there's your major plot hole.
NO! I am saying that God knew that because He gave them the right to eat the different fruits of trees, but told them not to eat off that certain tree, that they could go one way or the other, and I believe that because of His completeness and the fact that regardless of whether they did or not, He would be glorified, that He had Jesus in mind if they did, and that is why I still believe that the choice was theirs.

The things people have said on this thread against this theory are good! Give them a listen, with a humble mindset.

Oh and AB$, I thought I would let this slide, but dont you ever blatantly say that my theology is messed up again thanks! Cos there are verses to back up pro or con on this matter! You have ignored all of these! If U said that to anyone else here you'd get your butt kicked!

You are so young! U are quite intelligent, I will give U that, but U still have alot to learn! Stay humble concerning the word, cos I recon you have NO RIGHT to say that the other side of things is not scripturally valid! Perhaps U brought up some interesting points, but this is one of those mysteries of the word of God that theologians have and will be arguing over till we see Him face to face.

And I wont be posting here again unless I'm replying to someone elses thoughts, or if someone gets really hurt and angry concerning your comments! Please be careful that U dont hurt people!
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Old 02-12-2004, 12:56 PM   #33
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sorry if i hurt you "feelings" but the same thing has been said to me here.
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Old 02-12-2004, 01:46 PM   #34
bgivens33
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Ok, I think I'm starting to see where you are coming from now. There is still just one more thing that you posted that just doesn't make sense.

that He had Jesus in mind if they did

There is no "if" with God. He already knew. He knew they were going to sin. Why?? Because he created them. Jesus was not part of the "back up" plan... he was part of the plan. I personally believe that free will(artificial intelligence) is a concept made up by man. Given a creator... it can NOT exsist.
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Old 02-12-2004, 01:54 PM   #35
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Quote: (Originally Posted by bgivens33) Ok, I think I'm starting to see where you are coming from now. There is still just one more thing that you posted that just doesn't make sense.

that He had Jesus in mind if they did

There is no "if" with God. He already knew. He knew they were going to sin. Why?? Because he created them. Jesus was not part of the "back up" plan... he was part of the plan. I personally believe that free will(artificial intelligence) is a concept made up by man. Given a creator... it can NOT exsist.

YES!!

I do agree with you on every point. But this is just something to0 clear my mind up or whatever. Christinas have "free will" in the sense that they can choose what they are going to do now (sin or do what is right) because they have the Holy Spirit residing in them. Right?
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Old 02-12-2004, 05:06 PM   #36
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That's a little more tricky. I would like to think yes, they do have a limited amount of choice. But even then, if I give into sin, and another person doesn't... what makes them able to do that? It's a grey area really. I make my decisions based on a choice analasys... i.e., if I do this, what will then happen. If for some reason, I make the wrong choice... what made me make that choice? And more importantly, am I able to fully control the reasons of why I made that choice? So really.... I don't know. Glad to have cleared that one up for you
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Old 02-12-2004, 05:40 PM   #37
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yeah, i understand where you are coming from. But i mean like i have the choice to, lets say, look at porn on the internet. Or, i have the choice not to, because i know that it is wrong. i am talking about that kind of free will. i think that christinas, when in a situation like that, have the free will to choose to do what is right, and wrong. cause we are christians now. we can choose to do what is right because the holy spirit is helping us. and we choose to do what is wrong because we are still human and one of satan's main jobs is to make the believer fall.
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Old 02-12-2004, 06:36 PM   #38
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Quote: (Originally Posted by bgivens33) I gotta agree with aba$... Adam and Eve eating from the tree was planned. Without that happening, why is there a need for Jesus?? Them eating from that tree is what separates us from animals. We now know right and wrong and are capable of morals ect. It was planned.
Had they not eaten from the tree, there wouldn't have been a need for Christ, I agree. But that wasn't necessarily part of God's plan when He created this world. Yes, God can see into the future. If God is perfect, sinless, etc, then why would he want to introduce sin into this world, which is the sole cause of human suffering? Had there been no sin, then it wouldn't matter whether we knew right from wrong, now wouldn't it? God doesn't use his force that he's capable of (as we've seen in The Flood) for two reasons: he promised he wouldn't wipe people from the face of the Earth again; and people would despise their lives knowing they had no control over their future. So God allows us to make our own decisions, for better or worse (morality). He allows us to mess up. He forgives us. He also uses his Holy Spirit, through other people, to call us to Him.
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Old 02-12-2004, 06:38 PM   #39
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Quote: (Originally Posted by bgivens33) Given a creator... it can NOT exsist.
Unless he is a benevolent creator. I believe there exists a mix of free will and predestination (though I disagree with the idea of predestination when it comes to God determining our fates before we are born).
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Old 02-12-2004, 06:56 PM   #40
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Quote: (Originally Posted by american_bad_a$) dang, you have some screwed up theology.
Not cool, man.

Quote: (Originally Posted by american_bad_a$) God let adam and eve eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil for a reason. he could have stopped them and done something else, but He didn't. God let them eat because the end would glorify Him. and that end is when the world ends, satan is destroyed and sentanced to the lake of fire forever, and all the christinas go to heaven. god is sovereign. he knew that tadam and eve were going to eat of the tree. and if he knew it was gonna happen, he planned it.
Or perhaps there exists free will, he trusted they would follow his rules, they didn't. It seems to me that, in saying this, you are essentially calling God malicious and a sometimes-trickster. You know, that he intended for people to screw up. Doesn't say anything about that in the Bible. Just b/c you know something's going to happen doesn't mean you plan it. I might be the CEO of a car manufacturer, I might know that all my union workers are going to strike, but does that mean I plan it? No.

Quote: (Originally Posted by american_bad_a$) man has a choice. you are right. but the only option in that choice is to sin. Romans says, no one chooses to do good. only christians can choose to do good because they are christinas have have the holy spirit indwelling them and therefore, they can make the right decisions.
are you saying that, by double election, you mean that all Christians go to Heaven and everyone else goes to hell? If that's the case, then I agree with you. But I don't agree with the fact that "oh, this Buddhist can never be converted b/c God has damned him from birth"

Quote: (Originally Posted by american_bad_a$) God is sovereign, he is not hindered by anything. he can do anything, cause anything and stop anything. i don't understand how you can say that god couldn't stop adam and eve from eating from the tree.
Easy: free will. Like I said in a previous post, laws of science dictate that "for every action, there exists an equal and opposite reaction"; thus, evil and sin inherently oppose good. Therefore, it was necessary for the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil to exist. Because Christ was not part of God's plan at the time, Adam and Eve were given only one chance to screw up. Once they blew it the first time (as any of us would have done), simply killing Satan would not wipe out sin. Sin is inherent.

Quote: (Originally Posted by american_bad_a$) christians dob't send people to hell. God. does. Luke 12:5, "fear the one who has authority to cast into hell..." that is God. Christians do not send people to hell. it is their job to witness to the people that are going to hell. jesus said, "i did not come to call the righteous, but the sinners."
True, but I've heard stories in church of people who have either stopped going to church or did not go in the first place b/c of lack of hospitality and/or no invitation to join. Wouldn't you say it's nearly impossible for someone to know Christ if he/she is not exposed to him in the first place? It is our job as Christians to spread the Word of God to nonbelievers, not sit idly by, assuming they are all damned to burn in hell. That's why, in my opinion, I think it's great that bands like P.O.D. play OzzFest and tour with secular bands. Reaching out to those who have not yet been saved.
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Old 02-12-2004, 10:12 PM   #41
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Or perhaps there exists free will, he trusted they would follow his rules, they didn't. It seems to me that, in saying this, you are essentially calling God malicious and a sometimes-trickster. You know, that he intended for people to screw up. Doesn't say anything about that in the Bible. Just b/c you know something's going to happen doesn't mean you plan it. I might be the CEO of a car manufacturer, I might know that all my union workers are going to strike, but does that mean I plan it? No.

That's a good analogy, but it didn't work that way. when a sovereign God knows something is going to happen, be planned it because he is in control of everything. I am not calling God a trickster. Free will does not exist before one is a christian. Everyone is born a sinner and destined to hell from birth. Romans 5:12, "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned."


are you saying that, by double election, you mean that all Christians go to Heaven and everyone else goes to hell? If that's the case, then I agree with you. But I don't agree with the fact that "oh, this Buddhist can never be converted b/c God has damned him from birth"

I mean by double election that those whome God didn't choose to go to heaven, all the rest, he chose for hell. Romans 9:17, "For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." everyone who is born is destined to die. it is only through christ's sacrifice on the cross that some will be saved.


Easy: free will. Like I said in a previous post, laws of science dictate that "for every action, there exists an equal and opposite reaction"; thus, evil and sin inherently oppose good. Therefore, it was necessary for the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil to exist. Because Christ was not part of God's plan at the time, Adam and Eve were given only one chance to screw up. Once they blew it the first time (as any of us would have done), simply killing Satan would not wipe out sin. Sin is inherent.

the tree did have to exist because it was Gods plan that man would fall, and that he would send his son to die on the cross. the whole point of the creation of the universe was for the death of christ on the cross. why do you think that the ground shaked, the sky was darkened, and people were miraculously risen from the dead when christ died? the focus point of all creation was for christ to die. jesus said, "the stones will cry out." everything recognized that he was the point of everything.


True, but I've heard stories in church of people who have either stopped going to church or did not go in the first place b/c of lack of hospitality and/or no invitation to join. Wouldn't you say it's nearly impossible for someone to know Christ if he/she is not exposed to him in the first place? It is our job as Christians to spread the Word of God to nonbelievers, not sit idly by, assuming they are all damned to burn in hell. That's why, in my opinion, I think it's great that bands like P.O.D. play OzzFest and tour with secular bands. Reaching out to those who have not yet been saved.[/quote]

yeah, stuff like that happens. but your original statement was that "christians send people to hell". and that isn't true.

have i left out anything, i hope not.
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Old 08-09-2004, 10:34 PM   #42
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Way to go American Bad @s,

You believe in the doctrines of grace i take it?

I do too.
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