"Americans kill dozens of prisoners"

[Ana4Stapp]

http://today.reuters.com/News/newsAr...HAN-PRISON.xml

Another example of the stable Afghanistan


And yes bilal- after the Soviets were turned out of Afghanistan, for example, no help was forthcoming for the devastated country, and 'chaos' made it possible for the Taliban to come to power.

Indeed, Osama bin Laden was an obvious 'protege' of the west, which was 'happy' to support his fighters in the struggle for Afghanistan against U.S.S.R. , in the Cold War days.

So... now America and its allies in West are seeing the consequences of their actions in the past.

[Tremontixriffs]

Okay,

Im new to this political forum so here goes my take on this argument. War is a horrible thing, I have many friends and a cousin who is abroad in Iraq right now so I will try not to be biased to middle eatern or westerner. I am from the United states and I support the war effort. Many may look at war and say It is a last resort to a political dispute, but I believe its more about Good vs Evil. I am not calling anyone who worships islam or any middleastern evil. But there are forces at work in this world who have a dying need to Kill, Rape, Pillage, steal and destroy all except what is important to them.

Osama Bin Laden is not a matyr, hes not a god, not superhuman and he sure as hell is not a representative of the prophet Mohammed. He is a cold blooded killer who has no remorse for anything he does. He uses the palestinian cause and Islamic extremism to train boys and young children to be suicidal killers. The truth is that the world would be a better place without these men in it. I do not for one second believe that you can politically reason with someone who is not affraid to die. The fact that Iran is defying the world in order to enrich Niclear materials for use as weapons. He knows this, he doesn't care. There are other ways for Iran to have nuclear power but that is not this country's aministrations goals. The military commander for the Iranian government was responsible for the recruitment of one of the largest suicidal Matyrdom brigades. They have members in the thousands and I think it is so sad that they parade younh Iranian children around with machine guns offering them to death....Its horrible...American, Pakistani, Afgan, African, noone wants to see their loved ones die, especially in that manor.They showed a video of one of these suicede bombers mother and father. The father stood proud like his son had just done some great humanitarian deed all the while His mother sits there grief stricken and unable to speak her mind as her husban hold her sons photo over her head because she can't. We all know how women are percieved by most arab nations.
If one looks back on wars of the past and realizes the mistakes that were made. There were plenty of them, however I think the world would be a totally different place today if Hitler was not stopped. As it is we joind to late and were lucky to defeat this murderer of millions.
I think the world is a place that has gone totally wrong when madman whose only goal is to wipe the United States and Isreal out is given access to weapons of mass destruction. If the regime of the Iranian government is not changed they will develop a nuclear bomb and believe me they sure as hell will use it. Bilal I look forward to hearing your commentaryon my post, you do have some valid points but alot of them are far reaching such as the possible 9/11 conspiracy. Those pilots that flew the planes into the world trade center were trained to fly a plane and had plenty of miltary training to pull something like that off. I mean this is the same group that bomberd Bali, Egypt, United Kingdom, The us Embasies in Tanzania and the Sudan, The USS Cole and the world trade center in 93 and orchestrated a attack on Us soldiers trying to help the somalian people from genecidr at the hands of a miltia government that stole all the food for peopleand alot of them were buddies with Osama bin laden. They were also trined to fly in the USA which has some of the best flights schools around.If you look at the statistics for plane crashes per year in the usa its the best rating out of any international airways.

[bilal]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Tremontixriffs)

Okay,

Im new to this political forum so here goes my take on this argument. War is a horrible thing, I have many friends and a cousin who is abroad in Iraq right now so I will try not to be biased to middle eatern or westerner. I am from the United states and I support the war effort. Many may look at war and say It is a last resort to a political dispute, but I believe its more about Good vs Evil. I am not calling anyone who worships islam or any middleastern evil. But there are forces at work in this world who have a dying need to Kill, Rape, Pillage, steal and destroy all except what is important to them.

Osama Bin Laden is not a matyr, hes not a god, not superhuman and he sure as hell is not a representative of the prophet Mohammed. He is a cold blooded killer who has no remorse for anything he does. He uses the palestinian cause and Islamic extremism to train boys and young children to be suicidal killers. The truth is that the world would be a better place without these men in it. I do not for one second believe that you can politically reason with someone who is not affraid to die. The fact that Iran is defying the world in order to enrich Niclear materials for use as weapons. He knows this, he doesn't care. There are other ways for Iran to have nuclear power but that is not this country's aministrations goals. The military commander for the Iranian government was responsible for the recruitment of one of the largest suicidal Matyrdom brigades. They have members in the thousands and I think it is so sad that they parade younh Iranian children around with machine guns offering them to death....Its horrible...American, Pakistani, Afgan, African, noone wants to see their loved ones die, especially in that manor.They showed a video of one of these suicede bombers mother and father. The father stood proud like his son had just done some great humanitarian deed all the while His mother sits there grief stricken and unable to speak her mind as her husban hold her sons photo over her head because she can't. We all know how women are percieved by most arab nations.
If one looks back on wars of the past and realizes the mistakes that were made. There were plenty of them, however I think the world would be a totally different place today if Hitler was not stopped. As it is we joind to late and were lucky to defeat this murderer of millions.
I think the world is a place that has gone totally wrong when madman whose only goal is to wipe the United States and Isreal out is given access to weapons of mass destruction. If the regime of the Iranian government is not changed they will develop a nuclear bomb and believe me they sure as hell will use it. Bilal I look forward to hearing your commentaryon my post, you do have some valid points but alot of them are far reaching such as the possible 9/11 conspiracy. Those pilots that flew the planes into the world trade center were trained to fly a plane and had plenty of miltary training to pull something like that off. I mean this is the same group that bomberd Bali, Egypt, United Kingdom, The us Embasies in Tanzania and the Sudan, The USS Cole and the world trade center in 93 and orchestrated a attack on Us soldiers trying to help the somalian people from genecidr at the hands of a miltia government that stole all the food for peopleand alot of them were buddies with Osama bin laden. They were also trined to fly in the USA which has some of the best flights schools around.If you look at the statistics for plane crashes per year in the usa its the best rating out of any international airways.

know this is something ........... after reading ur post my good freind...i have decided not to go to bed ( its 3"50 in the night here right know and i have to be in my office tomorry at 8"30)................

ur right on almost all the things u have mentioned..... ur every word hits home...........and its beautiful stuff u have written there buddy....i loved reading it...............but u know what....i ll try to be most precise here ....... the thing that i am most agaisnt about....and why i am saying all this agaisnt war is becasue...... and as u have said in ur post ........ ur COuntry puts every correct text book reason upfront before going to war........as u said ur self....... maniancs and murderors needs to stoped and taught a lesson................agreeed!!!!!............... ur country justifies the war that its going to............... gets all the things gatherd up .,...all support ....all allies....... and every thing in place...alll prepared for war...........a war against terror or enduring freedom....all the poetic and enthusiatic things behid it.......BUT MY FREIND.....LOOK AT WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS WHEN THE WAR STARTS....................AND WHAT IT LEAVES BEHID!!!!!!................what happens to original objectives and where the war is draged to so far.........try to recall what were the objectives told to the country at start.........................its truely very right to kill and teach lesson to those who do bad and evill................ but WAR my dear freind .........jjust look at what happpened in afghanistan!!!!.............alright....put it aside........ its a little old hannn................just loook at whats going on in Iraq......... how many police men dies......how may cilivlians dies daily..........why all american army casulties.............. here in iraq majority killing is being done by "GOd knows only who"..........those "WHo" who just need to create a spark and let the common man get in to teh fire... but but BUT.......please loook.........whos dying!!!!........INNOCENT.....INNOCEN PEOPLE.....lives are bieng ruined.......genreation are getting poisoned......WHY!!!!!!.....my dear freind why all this all evil doing people are out all at once......making all this terror and killing............... shia muslims of iraq blame shuni muslim....and murder them.........and then happens vise versa................ this is all result of WAR.......... what happened in Afghanistan.....why people died.........innocent people......i being a muslim............... why do i have to watch this alll happening in the name of ISLAM.......why i see my muslim brother and sisters lives being ruined and killed every day.......why isnt dayer life is cared as much as those of oridnary americans.................why>?????.........i tell you why............becasue its a wAR dats goin on.........and casulties and loos of innocent lives and INNOCENCE it self gets killed...............i have studied my religion all my life....and i have learned to love and have peace with GOd..........why all this is bieng blamed to Islam............. i agree......Sadam wasnt a fair rulller....heck!!....he want even elected...... but why didnt USA let United nations hanndle the matter........why didnt USA helped or i MUST say allowed other muslim nations to try to solve the matter............just take a lookat the recent bombing of one of the holly sites in iraq....it was equllly adored by all muslims but having its link to shiate muslims....... led to new killings and my eyes were filled with tears when i saw the bodies of some 47 iraqies taken out of a ditch .... handcuffed killed by whome .....no body know.s......... shot dead for what............. to take revenge of recent massacre done by opposite gorup...................and belevie me...this killing wont end.............these are such deadly wounds on each and every effecteee of the War .....that arent goin to heal...............this is one of those historic crises...........that will bring many and many and many more terrible things back to world...............and we thing the war is actaully .,,,,eventually bring peace................

ALL I AM SAYING IS THAT UR COUNTRY THINKS WAR IS GONA BRING ALL THE BAD AND EVIL TO REST AND UR COUNTRY WILL BE SAFE HAVEN ONCE AGAIN........BUT LOOOK WHAT HAPPENS WHEN U ACTUALLY INVADE A COUNTRY AND BRINGS WAR TO IT...................... WHY U START A MESS THAT U CANT CONTROL.....IT ONLY FUELS EVIL AND HATRED AMOUNG PEOPLE..........TRUST ME MAN....IF ONE IS SINCERE........ THERE ARE WAYS THAT CAN BE SORTED OUT..... .WHY ALWASY WAR................WHY........


you told me about ur relative being there is Iraq..........u know what.....right know i am felling that if i those ur relatives were in front of me.........who went there having same objectives and intentions as you have mentioned as yours in ur post abouve.......I MIGHT HAVE EVEN KISSED THEIR HANDS.......man ...........i dont even wana imagine the risk ur people at war are taking...........but look..........what is actually goin on in iraq................. its messed up.......... u thought bringing down sadDam or say the origanal objectives as being destroying weapons of mass distrucion.......which ofcource are as invisible as OSama till this day.......... what was supposed to be acheived and what has happpened so far.........tell me honestly man..........do u think every thing is going as per plans!!!.......do ur government actually had thought out or expected all this blooodshed...........and isnpite of it.............went on wiht the invation..............???.........do u think normal neutral iRaqi will every approve ur war........

ur concer over Irans neuclear plan is right.........but i am not much informed over the recent updates.....i will try to reply to dat too...............cause u know ....after ur ARmy gets finished with Iraq and still havent learned a lesson.........oh....why am i sayin ur army shud learn...... ofcource ur Governemnt should...........adn ur poeple should realise what happend dayer..........may be iRAn is next.................and then what..........hmm....most definitely PAkistan......... but how knows what last for how long.................


I AM NOT ARGUING ABOUT UR INTENTIONS...............but i will never approve ur ACTIONS

[Tremontixriffs]

Your a good guy bilal,

I hope there are alot of pakistanis in your part of the world who do not think that all Americans are bad. Its no secret that there is alot of anti americanism in the Middle East. I have always wanted to visit the middle east, you have a great culture and its a shame that the events of the past fifty or so years is causing such a rift in the world. There are so many interesting places in the middle east and I may never get to see them and because of all this hate and bloodshed.

[eusebioCBR]

This is only speaking to one of bilals points - In this case most innocent people are dieing because insurgents choose to fight and hide among everyday people. I am aware of military mistakes so there are other factors in the loss of the innocent. War is ugly but what else is there when facing an agressor who hides among good people? Is it hard to believe that terrorism unchallenged will seek to dominate the entire globe? Not by conquering governments but, controling through fear and extortion.

[Ana4Stapp]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Tremontixriffs)

Your a good guy bilal,

I hope there are alot of pakistanis in your part of the world who do not think that all Americans are bad. Its no secret that there is alot of anti americanism in the Middle East...

That by the way will become worse and worse...

[RMadd]

what was the reason for the Sept. 11 attacks? Hmmm... I'll take a stab at this one:
Some wealthy and violently anti-American organization hellbent on conveying their messages through violent, anti-democratic tactics were finally frustrated enough with creeping American influence in the Middle East that they decided to do something about it by sending a message. Yep, looks like that one went according to plan.

[RMadd]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ana4Stapp)

Im not naive, Ryan...actually Im very far from it ( specially considering my age...lol) but I think is naive to think that war in Afeghanistan didnt fail.

age alone does not make one naive or not.

also, it's ludicrous to call something that's still ongoing a failure, to write it off as not having any chance of success, just as you seem to be doing Ana.

[Ana4Stapp]

Quote: (Originally Posted by RMadd)

age alone does not make one naive or not.

also, it's ludicrous to call something that's still ongoing a failure, to write it off as not having any chance of success, just as you seem to be doing Ana.

Hey..wheres your sense of humor...I was joking about my age ...right?

Well..its not what 'Im doing', Ryan...its the fact...anyway...call me naive if you want..but does it sounds naive or ludicrous?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programme..._4/4755222.stm

[uncertaindrumer]

Quote:

you have a great culture and its a shame that the events of the past fifty or so years is causing such a rift in the world.

This is totally unpolitically correct, but the middle east has ALWAYS had bad relations with the rest of the world since the rise of Islam. I mean sure, there are periods of relative peace, but there has been constant Islamic wars since Mohammed started. It is definitely not just the events of the past fifty years that have the tensions as they are.

[uncertaindrumer]

Quote:

So... now America and its allies in West are seeing the consequences of their actions in the past.

It's actions which ENDED THE COLD WAR. Thse who have lived very little of their lives under the threat of a nuclear war don't understand what it was like. Were mistakes made? Sure. But the U.S. kept the world from BLOWING ITSELF UP, and surely that's a good thing.

[bilal]

Quote: (Originally Posted by uncertaindrumer)

This is totally unpolitically correct, but the middle east has ALWAYS had bad relations with the rest of the world since the rise of Islam. I mean sure, there are periods of relative peace, but there has been constant Islamic wars since Mohammed started. It is definitely not just the events of the past fifty years that have the tensions as they are.

I ll be glad if u can present ANY facts to authenticate ur statement my freind............ Just blaming my religion for all the tention muslim countries have today is rediculous.............. its true religions have always been at war with each other .............. but here ur just being pointless and obsured............... and i hate to say...... a little biased too

[Tremontixriffs]

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/sto...ad&floc=NW_1-T

Just another example of these idiots running around blowing themselves and their own people up. This must be stopped. There is no place in the world for all this hate. Iraq deserves to be free again and these people must fight these suicide bombers, there wasn't even a military target it was just regular Iraqi people getting killed while fillling their car with gas. I dont know Anna , war is horrible but there is no political soultion to this crap, it never ends!

[Ana4Stapp]

Quote: (Originally Posted by uncertaindrumer)

This is totally unpolitically correct, but the middle east has ALWAYS had bad relations with the rest of the world since the rise of Islam. I mean sure, there are periods of relative peace, but there has been constant Islamic wars since Mohammed started. It is definitely not just the events of the past fifty years that have the tensions as they are.

Wow, Stephen...you know I love you...but after saying this I reeally hope you dont say that muslim world is EVIL... while America represents Goodness and Bush is ...God...

Seriously I know what you meant...the problem isnt the 'religion' ...but how governements are using this religion to control people and keep themselves in the power...I mean trying to keep muslim people blind trough the use of religious beliefs...

[uncertaindrumer]

I never said Bush is God. That is so absurd. I think Bush is in the wrong religion, I think he is often a nut head. I never said Islam is evil either. But would it surprise anyone I think they are responsible for a LOT of problems? I think the religion is totally false and built off a lie, it focuses on the degredation of women, the defeat of the infidels, war war war. Someone please show me where this HASN'T been a major thing Islam has focused on. When have they been peaceful? Im not saying every individual is a warmonger, but the religion as a whole seems to breed violence. You can say it doesn't mean to if you really want (I have never read much of the koran, or however you spell it) but regardless of what it means to do it DOES cause a lot of problems.

Someone wants proof? Islam took over half the world in a matter of years. there have been religious wars between Islam and... everyone... ever since. Don't try to tell me that isn't Islam's fault. When Christianity was expanding rapidly at the beginning of the calendar, it did so by conversion and peaceful means. Islam just conquered everyone.

You might think this is all lacking in tact but the gist is true. I am not saying, either, that "Christians" haven't used their own God for ridiculous purposes. But usually they do it in spite of their God, not because of their God.

You think I think America represents goodness? Ummm... hello? We murder millions a year and basically created the morally corrupt and depraved generation we now live in. Rampant sexuality, pornography, abortion, lack of morals, etc. etc. Are all children of America. America is the anti-Islam. Islam is what happens when you use a religious idea to make war. America is what happens when you get rid of all Religious ideals period. Islam isn't responsible for all the world's problems. America has plenty to do with that, as does Germany, Russia, Britain etc. etc. But I'm not gonna sit here and say "Oh yeah, Islam has been a quiet peaceful state for all time and a few extremists are ruining its name" because that just is not true.