Isn't it ironic?!

[Ann Allusion]

Amber, you asked for a reply...

Explaining my self is something i should not have to do, but this time i will, and i expect that such requests from you or anyone else that has a problem with any of the comments i have made recently and/or over the years will cease.

If you choose to take any of my following statements as condesending, then i will be wasting my time, as well as yours, and i will have to wonder why you asked in the first place. Otherwise, if you and anyone else that reads this choose to look at it without predjudice, you just might learn a thing or two...

Something i have learned about BB's is that, like the society we live in, they harbor diverse personalities...not everyone is going to agree with everybody else...and most will have differing opinions...and what's the saying about opinions? I'm sure that you know it.

Well to keep my feelings about opinions short...that is how we express what we choose to think...i can respect some opinions..and others i find humourus...or "laughable" to use your words...but over all, that doesn't mean that the person with that opinion is being dissed...it just means that i don't agree with their thoughts on the matter.

Am i attempting to change their mind? No. Do i want to change their mind? No. Because you see, opinions are unique to the person that has them. The only ones that can change their opinions are themselves...and it's not my place to do so, nor is it anyone elses place to judge my opinions, or assume i am attempting to change their opinions.

So...with that thought in mind, why is it so difficult to accept the fact that my opinions may differ from those of the majority and like you, or anyone else, i have every right to post what i believe.

Give me an HONEST answer why only SOME are allowed to say what they choose and others are not....that seems to be an ongoing theme around certain BB's...

As for AB, live and let live....I don't like their music, i gave them several listens from the beginning, even have their songs on CD, and they are just not what i'm into, either vocally or lyrically. I've never deneyed the talent that is AB. After all, the experience they gained from Creed is what got them to where they are now, as well as most of the fan's they have. I made the choice several months ago to say i wish them well in their endeavours both musically and personally where ever life takes them.

Now, if you or anyone assumes this post to be condesending...well then...a suggestion....get a backbone and grow up...because NOBODY can make anyone doubt themselves unless they already feel confused reguarding their beliefs and opinions in the first place.

[Dogstar]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Bridge of Clay)

no further comments, your honor!

LOL

[titan9]

Wow, like the Energizer Bunny, this thread keeps going and going and going. It seems like this happens to EVERY Stapp thread in this forum. It always turns into an argument, which is unfortunate. To be honest, I think everyone here(including myself) is guilty of not respecting another's opinion. We all have differing opinions on Mr. Stapp; some hate the heck out of him as a person; some love the heck out of him as a musician.

As I have said before, I think you have to draw the line between the musician and the person. We all know Stapp as a musician fairly well, but we do not know Stapp as a person? We think we do, just based upon what some people have said, based upon what his bandmates have said, based upon what the media has said. But how do we know for certain that these people are telling the complete truth? We don't. I am not saying that Tremonti, Phillips and Marshall are liars, all I am saying is that it is possible that not everything they say is the complete truth. I'm not going to take sides, though. It seems rather pointless for me to do that, and, besides that, I separate the musician from the person.

I love Tremonti, Phillips, Marshall and Stapp as musicians, but can't say whether I like them as people or not. I attribute that to the fact that I've never met them, don't know them personall and have never even seen them live in concert. The vast majority of these arguments are caused by someone saying that Stapp is an asshole as a person. Then another person posts back saying he isn't and it really escalates from there. I'd like to see just one thread that does not turn into an argument about how good of a person Stapp is. Let's try to stick to how good of a musician he is. Of course, all of this is just my opinion and you can take it as you will. I definitely don't want to argue with anyone on here, lol.

[uncertaindrumer]

Well I don't particularly like him as a musician either, but the reason these thigns always degrade down into personal issues is...

THERE IS NO MUSIC TO ARGUE ABOUT. If he had come out with a friggin CD that would be one thing. But he HASN'T. We can't talk about Stapp the musician except when it comes to Creed, and I think all of you would agree you liked him in Creed. So... no discussion there. Now, all that's left is to talk about him as a person becuase he HAS no music.

[titan9]

True. Perhaps once we get that solo CD, these arguments about how "Stapp, the man, is a jerk" will die down. I just wish that the arguments about him, as a person, would stop, even though we really can't talk about his solo career, musically speaking. I guess that, at this point(and until the solo CD comes out), all there is left to do is either talk about Stapp's personal life, or really talk about nothing at all. I'd rather see no talk than talk about something that always, ALWAYS, leads to arguments. Of course, this is just my personal preference.

[Ann Allusion]

Quote:

I just wish that the arguments about him, as a person, would stop, even though we really can't talk about his solo career, musically speaking.

realistaclly speaking, titan...shy of not mentioning him at all on any bb that shares space with AB, disagreements about him as a person and as a musician, sadly, will not cease. Even when positive reports of his progress make their way here...it's still never enough for some.

too many people feel animosity towards stapp, for one reason or another...and are unwilling to just let things go and give the man a chance.

and of course anyone that supports him...musically and as another human being, will always be accused of starting trouble...ie:arguments.

[titan9]

I definitely support Scott as a musician, there's no denying that. But I can't really judge him; can't really support him, as a person. Only because I don't know him personally. I've heard good and bad about him as a person, but I prefer not to judge, I prefer not to say he's a jerk as a person or he's an angel as a person. I'd rather just focus on the music, talk about that, and leave it at that.

[Trimontana]

Quote: (Originally Posted by fluttergirl)

many of us find your opinions laughable as well, and find no need to post a smile saying such. who are you to laugh at the members of this board, then cry out when your opinions arent being properly "respected"?
and not just his opinion, many peoples opinion.



obviously, you will hold it against us, because as you have previously showed, you laugh at us, you patronize us, and totally disrespect anyone who has a differeing opinion from yours. and his opinion is that. his opinion. hes not forcing AB down your throat, but you would think that this being a board where only one criteria (from Creed, AB and Stapp) is actually active (AB), and one criteria is being currently supported, that you could either bide your time until Stapp deigns to release some trivial record (which is the feel im getting from the continually postponed release dates).


something i have yet to see from you about anyone who likes AB. or about AB. or about anything OTHER than Stapp.



one, by assuming theyre assuming, youre assuming.
we've been over this. fact is fact. george washington was the first president of the united states, whether i met him or not. andrea yates murdered her children, whether i met her or not. having met someone or having known someone DOES NOT change the factual information of what they have or have not done. if looks like a duck and quacks liek a duck....pretty good rule of thumb, its a duck. yes there are exceptions. rarely, at i doubt it at this point.
Scott has given plenty of reasons for fans to be upset with him, and to lose patience. He has also yet to release a CD.
This, Ann, is called FACT.



And Stapp fans have not? theyve had, what, one new song since the Creed breakup? theres a difference in patiently waiting for a record, and simply refusing to face the idea that maybe, possibly, there have been other reasons than excuses for the lack of a record, which, in all honesty, i applaud most of y'all with, i simply couldnt wait any longer, that and i wasnt all keyed up with that much anticipation anyways. if it ever comes out, i'll listen to it.

and how is that "on the other hand"? AB didnt fall over when their CD was put out. we have plenty more to look foward to. again, i find it odd that you deem his CD far more imortant, if not omnipotent compared to ABs.

Ann, I'll be honest. I find your condescending tone and demeanor totally unnecessary. i cannot fathom what makes you come to this board, and pick on the members that like AB. please, explain it to me. there IS, beleive it or not a group of us do not like, or do not prefer stapp to AB, and yet, we do not treat you as you do us.
And when you respond to this (if you dont ignore it like the last one), if you would please return the favor i have paid you. leave out the cute smilies, the innuendos that we all get.
please, for ONCE, be completely open, and honest. i would much prefer that.
i, personally, would like to become a member of this board without having to worry if my opinion will be dissected and picked apart and hounded until i dont even feel like supporting it.

WWWOOOWWW woman, well said. Best post i ever read in a long time...i am still amazed

[Ann Allusion]

Quote:

I definitely support Scott as a musician, there's no denying that. But I can't really judge him; can't really support him, as a person. Only because I don't know him personally. I've heard good and bad about him as a person, but I prefer not to judge, I prefer not to say he's a jerk as a person or he's an angel as a person. I'd rather just focus on the music, talk about that, and leave it at that.

and that is your choice..it is what you have chosen to do...and no one should hold it as a fault against you...by the same token...there are many of us that have chosen to support both the music and the man.

Might help if we look at it this way...

There's this guy playing music on the street corner and you pass by on your way to work every morning...drop a few coins into the guitar case..sometimes even stop to listen if you're not running late...you really like his music and how he communicates his songs/lyrics...they say something to you...yet, you do not know this guy, you've only said hello in passing or maybe not have even spoken at all... All you know of him is he speaks to you thru his music...and since the music/lyrics are part of him...you feel you can relate.

One day while you are listening to him a local gang begins verbally harrassing him...and the verbal harrassment escalates until it becomes down right ridiculous and degrading...

again, you know nothing about this person on a one to one basis yet, would you not step forward and say something reguarding the attitude of this group that is harrassing him?...he may be ignoring the taunts and harrassment, yet, isn't it quite possible that he is feeling the sting of each of those words being thrown at him?

This gang, btw, doesn't know this street corner musician on a personal level either...seems one of them asked him to play a song and he said later...and that just set 'em off...for some people that's all it takes...not getting what they want when they want it.

We are our brother's keeper, whether we know them on a one to one basis or not...it is about compassion and love...not only for them...but for ourselves as well...turn your back on one human being, when you could have shown support....what will happen when it's your turn? It's all connected.

the above, though a story, was meant to give an example of supporting another person, even if you don't know them on a personal level....and it doesn't matter WHO that person is...it is a common courtsey that we would show to one another, i would hope, because we are all on this Earth Ship together.

[RMadd]

Amber, I think it's about time I add you to my "My Hero" list.... that was one helluva post up above!

"started talkin' shit, whaddaya know, i reached back like a and i slapped that ho!"

you certainly have a way w/ words

[RMadd]

Ann, i assume that, in your story, Scott is represented by the musician, all us "stapp-haters" are the gang, and you're the passer-by?
i find many things wrong w/ this:
first, it seems pretty high-handed of you to compare us to a gang. it's more of what a political scientist would call "public opinion." we are not harassing him to his face, nor anywhere near him. we're engaging in, by and large, civil discussion about his career in an area reserved for such discussion, positive or negative.
how would you like it if i used the following example:
let's say you're a tiny little country in, say, Europe. we "stapp-bashers" are the US or Britain. stapp is a large belligerent state. the belligerent takes over the small state. the US & Britain do all they can to free the small state from oppression of thought, speech, actions, etc, but to no avail. the small state actually likes being under the "caring" wing of the belligerent, sticking up for and believing every last thing the belligerent says. who sounds more horrible now?

second, at least in my experience, seeing street musicians before & after Cardinals' games and the like, hoping for people to drop some change in their instrument cases, most, i would assume (and i'm sure many many others would agree) are prolly homeless or under similar circumstances that would necessitate such performances in exchange for a hope for a good samaritan to drop some change in while passing by. as such, it seems a bit odd to compare scott to, essentially, a defenseless homeless person. yes, he is somewhat defenseless on here (save for those of you sticking up for him). but he's pretty much been out of work for quite a few months now (receiving very little original profit from album sales, etc... nothing from tours, marketing, and the like) and seems to be doing reasonably well.

[titan9]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ann Allusion)

and that is your choice..it is what you have chosen to do...and no one should hold it as a fault against you...by the same token...there are many of us that have chosen to support both the music and the man.

Might help if we look at it this way...

There's this guy playing music on the street corner and you pass by on your way to work every morning...drop a few coins into the guitar case..sometimes even stop to listen if you're not running late...you really like his music and how he communicates his songs/lyrics...they say something to you...yet, you do not know this guy, you've only said hello in passing or maybe not have even spoken at all... All you know of him is he speaks to you thru his music...and since the music/lyrics are part of him...you feel you can relate.

One day while you are listening to him a local gang begins verbally harrassing him...and the verbal harrassment escalates until it becomes down right ridiculous and degrading...

again, you know nothing about this person on a one to one basis yet, would you not step forward and say something reguarding the attitude of this group that is harrassing him?...he may be ignoring the taunts and harrassment, yet, isn't it quite possible that he is feeling the sting of each of those words being thrown at him?

This gang, btw, doesn't know this street corner musician on a personal level either...seems one of them asked him to play a song and he said later...and that just set 'em off...for some people that's all it takes...not getting what they want when they want it.

We are our brother's keeper, whether we know them on a one to one basis or not...it is about compassion and love...not only for them...but for ourselves as well...turn your back on one human being, when you could have shown support....what will happen when it's your turn? It's all connected.

the above, though a story, was meant to give an example of supporting another person, even if you don't know them on a personal level....and it doesn't matter WHO that person is...it is a common courtsey that we would show to one another, i would hope, because we are all on this Earth Ship together.

You've made a good point and I have to applaud you on that. I do hate to see the negativeness surrounding Stapp, the person, and have even defended him in the past, as a person. However, I realized that I really couldn't defend him as a person, because I don't know him as a person. I only know him as a musician. Of course, everyone has a differing opinion about judging Stapp the person, and my opinion isn't the same as yours. That I can accept, and that you have clearly accepted.

I hate to see anyone on here getting jumped on for voicing their opinion. It has happened to you, Ann, and has happened to other people(even myself in the past). It does seem like the pro-Stapp people get this treatment a whole lot more than the pro-Alter Bridge people, which is even more disheartening to see. It's really terrible the division that has occurred since the Creed break-up. You've got the pro-Stapp, non-Alter Bridge fans; the pro-Alter Bridge, non-Stapp fans; the pro-Stapp, pro-Alter Bridge fans. I've seen a lot of fighting between those first two groups, which really sucks. Many people from those two groups were once united, together, as Creed fans. Now that the break-up has happened, they are divided, arguing with each other.

The arguments are almost always about the guys(Stapp, Tremonti, Phillips, Marshall) as people, not as musicians. Stapp people jump all over Alter Bridge people for saying less than kind things about Stapp the person, while Alter Bridge people jump all over Stapp people for saying less than kind things about the guys as people. And if you defend Stapp and don't back down, you're called a Stapp worshipper. Likewise, if you do that with Alter Bridge, you're called an Alter Bridge worshipper. It seems to me that Stapp fights are most common around here. Any new Stapp thread is poluted with arguments about how Stapp is as a person. People who clearly don't like Stapp as a person, come in here and talk about him as a person. The Stapp supporters who are sick of the beating that Scott has taken in recent years, come in and defend Stapp. And it escalates from there.

These forums are a wonderful place to hang out. The only thing I don't like are the arguments about the people behind the music. If there were a few less arguments about the people behind the music, this board, in my opinion, would be a better place. Yes, I have ranted a bit with this post(and perhaps other posts in this thread), but I felt that I had to get my point across. Popular or not, everyone has an opinion. Let's respect each other's opinions, and, hopefully, there will be less arguments and these forums will be a better place for everyone, Stapp and non-Stapp supporters alike.

[Ann Allusion]

Love (compassion) looks through a telescope; envy, through a microscope.
~Josh Billings

word!

as i said before everyone has an opinion.

[RMadd]

http://maddox.xmission.com/c.cgi?u=boiling_blood

I like #2, esp. the cartoon

[uncertaindrumer]

Your story is ridiculous, Ann, because in the story, the guy playing on the street corner did not:

Drive his other band members out of the band.

Promise his fans music and then deliver none.

Get himself drugged out and completely ruin various shows of his which people paid MONEY FOR.

Generally act like a jerk at all times.

Never give anyone a SINGLE reason to think he was a decent, humble person.

Act like your stereotypical pretentious rock star who has nothing but his own interest in mind.

There is a big difference between that and a homeless guy playing music on the street. And I also wish we could talk about Stapp the musician but I am PRETTY sure that if I were to start insulting his lyrics I would get jumped on for that as well.