Re: Proof that Christianity is the Way
 

Actually I know plenty. Most are at least astute enough to admit that the problem of morality is at least a problem, even if they don't admit totally my position.



If this is true, logically, morals don't do anything! Explain to me how a law which can be changed at ANY moment is a law? I really am curious.


So what indeed? Believing is not what we are talking about. That is where subjectivity, personal belief and opinions all come into it. We are talking about an objective morality. And without an objective morality, how can one have any morality at all? You still have not answered this, I am very curious to discover how you think morality can matter without someone higher than us.



Now we are talking about a different thing. I know many atheists who live, if not saintly, at least decent, good lives*. I do not say atheists cannot be moral or act righteously. But, to them, it doesn't mean anything. Going up to random people and punching them is every bit as meaningless as going up to random people and giving them money (from an ethical perspective. Obviously from a legal perspective giving strangers money won’t get felony charges landed against you).

*But again, this begs the questiopn: According to whom? Me? Maybe? You? Maybe. Maybe not. They can't live "moral" lives if there is no thing to measure it by!



No. It isn't. I see you still just do not understand what I attempt to say...


It might occur to me that they have personal beliefs on the subject, but where do those beliefs come from, hmm? I am committing no such either/or fallacy. Either there is an objective moral code or there isn't. That is not a fallacy, it is a logical determination. A second premise is that without a higher being there can be no objective moral code. This is obvious to all but the most ardently stubborn. You need to discredit one of these two premises. The first is pretty much impossible (there either is something or there isn’t... you can’t have something simultaneously existing and not existing) to discredit, the second premise seems just as impossible. Without a higher Being to create this objective moral code, there can’t be one, since someone had to create it. By all means, point out the fallacy in these premises. I do not think you can because I do not think there is one. Keep in mind that in this particular argument, I am not arguing for an objective moral code. If you wish to have that debate some other time we could. No, my argument here is that for it to exist, there has to be a higher being. That is the basis of my assertion, nothing more, nothing less.


You KNOW? I am curious, how do you KNOW? Who has told you that you live a moral life? Yourself? Someone else? Who has the authority to tell you that you have? No one, really. I, myself, would most likely be appalled by some things you have done (this is not just you; I would be appalled by anyone. By myself, for that matter. All men sin); I probably would not call you a moral person. You may say “Well I don’t CARE what you think” and that would be most reasonable indeed. But I have as much authority as any other human to make a moral judgment of your actions. And my judgment is just as useless as everyone else’s.


But WHY you do this is the question. Do you have a reason? Not really. You just made it up. I could just as easily make up my own moral principle: “Treat others as you DON’T want to be treated yourself”. Would that somehow give my “principle” any sort of credibility? No. The fact that your principle seems acceptable in modern society is no argument for it. You need to have a logical basis for coming up with it, and you don’t. You just made it up. For that matter, you didn’t just make it up, you took it from the Bible, but that is unimportant, since at the moment the Bible has no authority either. We haven’t even reached an objective moral code yet.


Umm, no? Who on earth says that is a “natural moral order”? You? I don’t. Many don’t. Many others don’t. Many others might. Who knows? Who cares? Humans can’t come to morals by majority. That is ludicrous. You might like to invent ethics for yourself, these ethics might be righteous and admirable, but they are still your invention, and therefore have not a leg to stand upon.


Another question: Do you enjoy getting insulted, cursed at, etc.? If so, you are extremely strange indeed. If not, why do you do it to others? Does not this violate your “principle”? And yet... it doesn’t matter, does it? Your “principles” mean absolutely nothing because if you “break” them, who cares! There is no retribution, no law against it. There is nothing in the way of your breaking your own invented principle, or changing your own principle, and a law without some sort of authority behind it is no law at all.

Can you imagine the United States if our laws weren’t enforced? Would anyone make an argument that we have laws at all? Of course not! A law that isn’t enforced is no law at all! A law that can change at anyone’s whim is no law at all.


No, I have not read a book that “shattered my little box” because none can. Or, to be more accurate, none has, and I do not expect any to anytime soon, though I do not claim omniscience and the idea that none EVER can. That is where Faith comes in but I digress, this has nothing to do with the topic. Anyway, this does not mean I do not read opposing viewpoints. I do it often. Indeed, just now I am reading fundamentalist written books about why evolution absolutely could not happen. I do not believe this. Indeed, I am rather convinced it does occur, but I like hearing opposing viewpoints. I have also listened and read many other tapes and books which do not agree with my own beliefs. Existentialism, Nietzsche, Plato have been my most recent. I have read lots of stuff. I just don’t feel particularly confident reading a book you recommend. If it has arguments as logical as your own it will most likely be a waste of time.


I might do that. Not sure why I would seeing as I am being told to by a guy who can’t stop cursing at me but I might.


Can’t you do your own talking, discussing, etc? I am not throwing books at you, though I certainly could. Try reading Peter Kreeft’s imaginary dialogues between Socrates and modern day citizens, or Vincent P. Miceli’s book on atheism, or heck, go to the simple but brilliant logic of C.S. Lewis’ Mere Christianity. Have you read any of those? I doubt it. Don’t want to ruin your little box that keeps the angels out :D


Educate myself? So... reading atheists is educating but reading Christians is abandoning logic? I love your reasoning, anarkist.


It saddens me that you do not wish to continue our dialogue, but I suppose I am not entirely surprised. You have offered nothing coming close to a logical argument in support of your beliefs, and are being battered by logical arguments from the other side. I don’t think you like Christianity (or theism in general) being supported by logic. Maybe you don’t run into it often? Or maybe people just don’t like arguing with you because of your lack of tact. I must say, it is much easier to have a discussion with someone who at least LOOKS like he is trying to be polite, than someone who goes out of his way to be profane and unreasonable.

I am not being lazy at all. Your complete lack of any types of answers is a bit interesting, though. If you simply need more time, say so. I am not one who needs a post within five minutes of mine, that is three pages long. If it is a time issue and that is why you can’t seem to come up with any reasonable arguments based on logical thought, just say so and get back to it whenever you have the time. I do not wish the discussion to end on a bad note merely because you have a busy life.

Re: Proof that Christianity is the Way
 

Another few things: Do you go into thigns with the already decided notion that Theism MUST be wrong? If so, why? If not, why the vehemence? Does it frighten you so much to admit there might be a higher being? If it really is all based on unbiased research as you say, why the incredible fury with which you attack theism? That doesn't seem like the cold calculating logic of an impartial observer just trying to get to the truth.

As for your argument about Jesus' Second Coming: please. A ten year old knows the difference between Jesus coming into His kingdom, and the second Coming. Jesus says the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. Indeed! Spread the good news for Jesus is risen and sin has been defeated.

Actually, if it interests you, Read Thessalonians, where Paul rebukes those who hold that the Second Coming is going to be so soon that they have stopped working, producing, living, etc. Clearly Paul wasn't expecting the Second Coming immediately. But at the same time, Christians always--or at least, should always--expect the Second Coming. If you don't, and then it comes... well you are in bad shape aren't you. I expect it to come today. Will it? Probably not. But the idea that Jesus might come is a good way to avoid sin.

Re: Proof that Christianity is the Way
 

wow....first thing..........i havent read much of what is written before..........cause its a volume of its own...........damn..............so iam just answereing da question of da first post

secoundly....i am a MUSLIM...........so herez my understanding or my views...or my stuff...........what eever it comes out to be.........u guyys decide......................


status of JEsus crist in Islam...................ok.........for us muslims..........Jesuss crist was a messsenger or God ALmighty to guide the people towards HIM...............we all muslims must and we do respect JEsus CRist as a messenger of ALMIGHTY ALLAH ...........if u guys have seeen da recent voilence in de muslim world over cartoons of Our Holy Profet Muhammad (P.B.U.H)..................u guys shud have a clear cut idea ...how much we adore da messengers of GOD ALMIGHTY............so all love Jesus Crist......................but main difference in faith between muslims and cristians come here........dat is de main junction is dat we believe dat JEsuss Crist was a man.......a human chose by ALMIGHTY to serve his messege to da masses as he was pure and honest person.......and he will return to da world from heavens above to complete his mission.............

OUr holy book Qu'ran has more reference to Jesus crist as Qur'an is de extention of BIble............as we call and update of the previous version............the fact is dat bible write know is not in its original forms.............it has been edited a lot many times....but Qur'an is as it was served by our Holy Profet (P.B.U.H)....................but we agree dat its de book of God ALmighty.................but no body knows da original version..........


The world will see da return of Jesus Crist........dats one of da main believes of Islam............................as a Muslim..........i beleive in his return.............


One shud realy loook inside and search for truth.........cause peace is nowhere else but in truth..................and faith is de only cure............ONE SHUD NEVER HOLD BACK QUESTIONS REGARDING FAITH CAUSE IT IS A QUEST FOR TRUTH.........QUESTION EVERY ASPECT AS MUCH AS U WANT...AND I APPRECIATE THE USER WHO POSTED THIS THREAD.....NO MATTER IF IT QUESTIONS ABOUT ISLAM OR CHRITIANITY.............I BELEIVE ONE SHUD!!!!!!................

so.................dats my poiint of view..............dayer aint anyother difference between muslims and cristians............i.e on da matter of belief............but practically Cristianity and Islam has major differences.............Bible was revealed at a time when ppl needed and order and way of life.........so Bible contains all da holy rules of peace and worship......about love and respect for humanity................where as Qur'an came 500 years latter ..............is a sequel........as every messenger do two thins.............one is to verify da professy of previous one and to give sighs cocerning da following ones.......in Bible.......dayer is certification about Mosses and Abrahim..........and so dAeeyer are sighns tellin about Holy Profet (P.B.U.H).............but as we muslims say....and da world agrees...dat bible aint in its true form.............so it has been custumised a lot...................


(i hope dis discussion is taken as an argument to enlightenment and not as confrontation...........i have my Faith and other have dAyer own.............and dez arguments shud only lead one to have his Faith refreshed and cleansed.............may we all follow da right path..............cause being Muslims or Cristians or Jews or Hindu doesnt makes us created by different gods............. GOD is dayer, we just need to collect his signs............may be dats our purpose of dis life???????????????????????????

Re: Proof that Christianity is the Way
 

I am interested in your thoughts but I must say I have trouble reading your post...

I do believe though, the idea that Jesus was a great prophet but not God is somewhat silly, since only a liar or fool would claim to be God when He is not.

Re: Proof that Christianity is the Way
 

welll............thats part of my belief too..........we Muslims believe dat he was man of faith...............the reason dat he was quote as God or son of god........is because his HOly Mother Mary wasnt touched by any man but was a miracle dat Jesus wAs born............secoundly he was also raised in the house of the emporror of dat time (sorry i cant recall the name) but it was so amazing dat the guy who ordered every kid who born in da time Jesus was born to be slayed..because he had a dream or magician kinda guy told him dat a Kid is comin dat will cause the end of ur rule................so Mother Mary has to leave Crist in a boat kinda thing dat made its way somehow to the palace....................and he was raised dayer...............but iam sure every body knows dis story.................man...............


and i do appreciate dat u call Jesus Crist a great profet of Almighty..............cause he was..............he was a great man...........who was blessed with many of Gods gifts............to help him convey his message...................he showed the people of dat time peace and love............and care for the poor.............as this is what all religions are about.......arnt they.....................???..............evry one believes in God and every one believes in love, peace........, sacridity of life of a human irrespective of cast, colour , religion or place............ i believe we jsut goootta take care from those infulential ppl within our own religions dat cause da greatest of damage...........i mean...i being a muslim....i know dat ppl have used our love for our Holy Profet (P.B.U.H) as atool for dayer own prestige and fame.......and misleaded ppl......same ill say for cristianity........ppl have made chagnes in Bible.........the words/script of God Almighty to reflect dayer self intrest of may of time or empires or states.......like ppl have made many wrong assumptions about status of women in chritianity....same as in Islam...in my religion.....ppll have created misconceptions about status of non-muslims and have used it in dayer own favour.........but every body knows da right .....cause truty stikes heart man............it brings satisfaction.....

ill say just one thing dat i belvie in KNOWLEDGE IS THE POWER...... u gotta have ur own first hand knowledge.......and den ask ur heart......."are u satisfied litle fella"...............and listen to ur heart..............not what ur parents or preacchers say.........question and just follow what ur heart says....i being a muslim ....i donot aggree wid all what my clerics or fellow muslim says....i refer to da source.........the Qur'an and the life of my Holy Profet(P.B.U.H)....................... and den listen to my heart.............

Re: Proof that Christianity is the Way
 

Well I'm not sure I understand what you are saying but hopefully I do. It is always interesting to see what another side thinks.

Re: Proof that Christianity is the Way
 

Hey, dude, I think you're a little confused with the story of Moses.
It's like, the story is switching back and forth every other sentence.

as God or son of god........is because his HOly Mother Mary wasnt touched by any man but was a miracle dat Jesus wAs born - Jesus

secoundly he was also raised in the house of the emporror of dat time (sorry i cant recall the name) - Moses

but it was so amazing dat the guy who ordered every kid who born in da time Jesus was born to be slayed..because he had a dream or magician kinda guy told him dat a Kid is comin dat will cause the end of ur rule - Kinda Moses and Jesus...

so Mother Mary has to leave Crist in a boat kinda thing dat made its way somehow to the palace....................and he was raised dayer - Moses,
and it wasn't Mary, it was Moses' mother.

Re: Proof that Christianity is the Way
 

I think what he means by "educating yourself", is to know enough of the other side of the arguement to have a right to voice.

But, yeah, I haven't read any of the books he suggested, either.
Personaly, they make me sick, insofar as I've seen enough flaw in their theories to make all the time and effort they put into it seem futile.

Re: Proof that Christianity is the Way
 

Ok name 3 theories you have read, what flaws have you found, and why is it that they make you sick is it because they deny the existence of a god/s of any sort? If that’s the case think about how I feel reading things everywhere in every day life.

I can't sneeze with out some one saying "god bless you" why is it that every one assumes that every one else believes in a god? I don't make that assumption becasue` I know it’s not true or the ever so futile comment of "I'll pray for you" that one also is bothersome what if we just prayed for people and didn't use doctors? How many people do you think would actually survive? Very few by my calculation.

Anyhow I have to do more research and build upon my knowledge.

Re: Proof that Christianity is the Way
 

I don't. I would hope God blesses you whether you believe in Him or not. And by the way, the VAST majority of people believe in some form of a supernatural Being.

Re: Proof that Christianity is the Way
 

ive come to this conclusion.....there is no god and were all doomed to walk the earth alone:)

Re: Proof that Christianity is the Way
 

No, they make me sick because ,and I quote,
I'm in a bit of a hurry right now, so the other two will have to come later.

It is a common belief in neo-darwinist circles that the Neanderthal man was a sub-species of man, and there are no surviving descendants of them alive today. They mysteriously disappeared thousands of years ago, in another age, and they have almost nothing at all to do with present day mankind.
However, I would like to invite you to explore some of these sites:

http://www.rae.org/armor.html

http://www.s8int.com/sophis8.html

http://www.jackcuozzo.com/

I'd also like to recomend a book called Buried Alive, by Jack Cuozzo

Re: Proof that Christianity is the Way
 

And you are a Stapp fan? lol

Re: Proof that Christianity is the Way
 

And I will actually check it out (when I get done with my Kip Thorne book "Time Warps & Black Holes"

this is the site I tend to when dealing with evolution

http://www.talkorigins.org/

Re: Proof that Christianity is the Way
 

ah....thanks for correctin me dayer.....its been a while since ive been in religious conversation.............i couldnt recall da correct story...........thanks ..........