How are we supposed to believe...

[HeavenBesideYou]

... that our government is doing their best to protect us from another attack when we can't even lock our own back gate???

More from the border... (http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/12/newmexico/index.html)

Heaven

:pimp:

[creedsister]

its a sight

[Ana4Stapp]

I understand you Heaven, but this is very suspicious when government put the blame on the illegals.I mean, its easy, you know?
Anyway, its my opinion. ;)

[creedsister]

again its a sight my grand pappy told me there would be days like this And He Would Say I hope im Dead And Gone and if The Good Lord Give You Wisdom Use It

[uncertaindrumer]

I understand you Heaven, but this is very suspicious when government put the blame on the illegals.I mean, its easy, you know?
Anyway, its my opinion. ;)

You don't like government much do you. :rolleyes:

[Ana4Stapp]

You don't like government much do you. :rolleyes:


No, you' re wrong...this time... :rolleyes:

I dont think being critical concerning to the government's actions is the same to dislike governments.
Also, bashing politicians without a reason its stupidity.This is not my point.

And i didnt say in this case above, US or Mexico governement are wrong - but you know its easy to put the blame on: the illegal, the poors ones,etc...


PS: You censured US invading Iraq-so, it means you dont like Bush governement??? Is the same thing? :rolleyes:Please,clarify this...uncertain

[Ana4Stapp]

And no, I'm not an anarkist... :D lol

[Chase]

The border issue is a very volatile issue. I live in San Diego, which is a border city. Due to the impending threat of terrorism, I believe that the Bush administration really needs to clamp down on getting the borders secure. I don't blame many Mexicans for wanting to come to America to give a better life to their families. I would do the same thing. However, just because they are our neighbors does not give them the right to just "hop" the fence, cheat the system, and not pay the same amount of taxes as American citizens. People from all over the world have to go through the same system in order to be granted legal status in America. The reason why secure borders is so important is because it's not difficult for terrorists to come through the already porous borders. I love the Mexican people, I speak decent Spanish, and enjoy traveling south of the border. But laws are laws. They need to respect our laws, just as visiting Americans need to respect theirs. ;)

[Ana4Stapp]

I didnt say different, also I think Mexican governement needs to do something to get a better life to people just to avoid this kinda of thing.

[RMadd]

I agree Ana: if the quality of life wasn't so contrasting, then there wouldn't be scores of people trying to get in, many illegally....
I've only been there once, for 4 days, so I didn't really get an amazing look at the inner-workings of Mexican politics, etc. But I do know that, given a highly charismatic leader promising anything (think Hitler, Lenin, etc) and a leader promising true democratic reforms who is just dull, they'd go for the charismatic leader. So that may have something to do with the problem. Vincente Fox seemed to be on to something when, back in 2000, he promised to work w/ Bush on reforming border legislation & all (early in his term, before 9/11, Bush was open to relaxing the border w/ Mexico). unfortunately, 9/11 happened, and any relaxation of border security now would be political suicide and kinda dumb.

[uncertaindrumer]

No, you' re wrong...this time... :rolleyes:

I dont think being critical concerning to the government's actions is the same to dislike governments.
Also, bashing politicians without a reason its stupidity.This is not my point.

And i didnt say in this case above, US or Mexico governement are wrong - but you know its easy to put the blame on: the illegal, the poors ones,etc...


PS: You censured US invading Iraq-so, it means you dont like Bush governement??? Is the same thing? :rolleyes:Please,clarify this...uncertain

Disagreeing with one administration about one policy (granted I disagree with more than just that but anyway) is one thing. I don't think I have EVER heard you say something good about a government...

[Ana4Stapp]

Disagreeing with one administration about one policy (granted I disagree with more than just that but anyway) is one thing. I don't think I have EVER heard you say something good about a government...

Hun...maybe its cause we dont talk much ... :rolleyes:

But what do you want to hear from me? sometnhing about your governement or mine? hun? By the way, my governement is in a big huge problem, but i still love and support my president... ;)

[uncertaindrumer]

Hun...maybe its cause we dont talk much ... :rolleyes:

But what do you want to hear from me? sometnhing about your governement or mine? hun? By the way, my governement is in a big huge problem, but i still love and support my president... ;)

Lol, nothing wrong with your position. Seeing as how conservative the United States govrenment is right now, it is obvious why you can't stand it. lol

[Ana4Stapp]

Lol, nothing wrong with your position. Seeing as how conservative the United States govrenment is right now, it is obvious why you can't stand it. lol

And what about you? Do you support your governement or not? I mean , i know you re against Iraq's war, but I dont know your position concerning to the US domestic policy...never heard you talk about it...(of course it would be explained by our poor opportunity of talking... :rolleyes: )


PS: Am I a liberal? :D

[uncertaindrumer]

It depends. If we get Roe v. Wade overturned or major hits against Stem Cell research or something like that, I'll be happy with this four year term... Otherwise, I'll be pissed, cuz the only reason I wanted Bush in is because of his stance on issues like that. Certainly didn't want him in because of his terrorism policy.

[Ana4Stapp]

It depends. If we get Roe v. Wade overturned or major hits against Stem Cell research or something like that, I'll be happy with this four year term... Otherwise, I'll be pissed, cuz the only reason I wanted Bush in is because of his stance on issues like that. Certainly didn't want him in because of his terrorism policy.

Well Im not sure if I got it. You mean you are against cell researches ? why?
it can help a loto f people...oh sorry maybe i got it wrong...
also, no one likes Bush terorism policy...so how Bush won?hun?

[uncertaindrumer]

Well Im not sure if I got it. You mean you are against cell researches ? why?
it can help a loto f people...oh sorry maybe i got it wrong...
also, no one likes Bush terorism policy...so how Bush won?hun?


Cuz some do like his policy.

And the reason I am against stem cell research is because they use living cells, which would have become fully capable human beings someday, for the research, so it is basically the same as abortion. There is also NO disease or any kind of illness that this research has managed to find a cure for, while ADULT cells of the same type (not sure of their technical name) which can be harnessed without killing anyone, have shown strong abilities in medicine. I don't know the "names" for everything so my explenation is somewhat spotty, sorry.

[Ana4Stapp]

Cuz some do like his policy.

And the reason I am against stem cell research is because they use living cells, which would have become fully capable human beings someday, for the research, so it is basically the same as abortion. There is also NO disease or any kind of illness that this research has managed to find a cure for, while ADULT cells of the same type (not sure of their technical name) which can be harnessed without killing anyone, have shown strong abilities in medicine. I don't know the "names" for everything so my explenation is somewhat spotty, sorry.


Look uncertain, the stem cell research provoked a new hope for patients that suffer a long and cruel expectation for a cure that possibly never appears, especially concerning to the degenarative diseases. Is sad when we realize that a lot of those people probably will die before using this kind of medical treatment, but maybe that will be available for our children. This is a true revolution in Medicine.

Cell researches happens in a group of cells with is not the same of a human being, and with a very low capacity of life ...To science, life has no beginning or end -its a cicle.
Even a frozen embryo(threw away, by the way)- that had no cahnce of bringing life(the END)- can cahnge this, by curing a lethal disease in a child- so we are keeping the cicle of life.

Of course everyone has the right to follow a religion, having faith, but is inadmissible when a State -which is not a religious state- decides to forbiding a very important humanity advance. :(

Also, if we human being had always think in a religious manner in the past, we 'd stop the evolution, and if God created human, why HE gave humans reasoning, logic and intelligence? Why not use this? Why not making a good use of it?

And if you are a religious person that really want to avoid this kind of thing with determination(maybe because you dont need this or neither your family--) ok, its your position, but dont take off other people hands this hope...

And yes, Abortion is the end of a life, but cells research means the beginning...

Think about it.

PS: sorry,but i can't agree with you in this case...

[RMadd]

maybe you're a communitarian? i dunno........
i used to be against stem cell research, for religious reasons (the whole "playing God" issue)... but I'd started to come around when someone made the point that "X" past invention/innovation (I can't remember what it was, but certainly something that we take for granted now), had enormous potential for misuse when it was first introduced, but that today it's widely accepted & very few people are against it.... i think that might've been on This Week w/ George Stephanopolous....

[Ana4Stapp]

I dont think they are playing God but using what God gave to them :logic and intelligence to save other people lives.

Also, its good when someone change his mind about a issue like that- that envolves religions concepts -what definitely no means contrariety to God's law.Cause it is pro life , not against it. ;)

[Ana4Stapp]

See this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4174400.stm

This link contains very good news about cell researches

[uncertaindrumer]

:rolleyes:

Ana, how willing are you to sacrifice the young for the old? To abort babies for convenience, for stem cell research, and for everythign else under the sun? Next you'll want us to clone people just for body parts, which is practically what stem cells do anyway.

Saying this is a religious topic and shouldn't get in the way of politics is just another example of your extreme liberalism--you can argue that we aren't killing people, but don't tell me that MURDER isn't something governed by the State. It is. And if this is killing unborn, it should stop.

[Ana4Stapp]

:rolleyes:

Ana, how willing are you to sacrifice the young for the old? To abort babies for convenience, for stem cell research, and for everythign else under the sun? Next you'll want us to clone people just for body parts, which is practically what stem cells do anyway.

Saying this is a religious topic and shouldn't get in the way of politics is just another example of your extreme liberalism--you can argue that we aren't killing people, but don't tell me that MURDER isn't something governed by the State. It is. And if this is killing unborn, it should stop.

Am I a extreme liberalist woman? Oh you dont know me at all, (even though we ve talked a lot) saying that...

I really like you and consider you a friend so i need to make clear that:


1) scientists can use frozen embrios that are not used in the clinics for reproduction. -they will be trow away--so why not use this?

2) did you read the article about the new cells research by Harvard?-they will use adults cells...


In the two cases above they are not killing people!!! They are TRIYNG to SAVE LIVES!

Also I thought you know me enough to avoiding say those things: Im not an imoral person! I dont support everything in the world and Im not a person pro clone human being... dont ythink killing babies is okay, cause you know I work with children...dont you? so your ironic"suggestion" is ridiculous and unhappy!!!!!!!!

Also,im not an extreme liberalist but of course Im not a conservative person with a closed-mind and I'm very proud of it! :mad1:

You really dont know me, Stephen...


Anyway, I definitely need to stop here, cause Im at work and by the way, I dont even know what Iam saying...

[uncertaindrumer]

Am I a extreme liberalist woman? Oh you dont know me at all, (even though we ve talked a lot) saying that...[quote]

Well come on, you are a liberal. Nothing wrong with that. I am somewhat liberal on non-moral issues.


[QUOTE]1) scientists can use frozen embrios that are not used in the clinics for reproduction. -they will be trow away--so why not use this?

I don't ecall saying this was wrong. Its using NEW onws, which everyone claims we "need" that is wrong.

2) did you read the article about the new cells research by Harvard?-they will use adults cells...

Adult cells are fine. And actually, I did read the article but wasn't referrring to it. Sorry, shoulda made that clea.r


In the two cases above they are not killing people!!! They are TRIYNG to SAVE LIVES!

Particularly in the second case. In the first, I am still not for the use of embryonic stem cell research. Even if in this particular case the lfie or death decision has already been made.

Also I thought you know me enough to avoiding say those things: Im not an imoral person! I dont support everything in the world and Im not a person pro clone human being... dont ythink killing babies is okay, cause you know I work with children...dont you? so your ironic"suggestion" is ridiculous and unhappy!!!!!!!!

Ana, I find abortion to be killing babies, so if you are pro-abortion--which you have said you are--then I believe you are for killing babies.

Also,im not an extreme liberalist but of course Im not a conservative person with a closed-mind and I'm very proud of it! :mad1:

Meh, conservatives, liberals, blah blah. I don't care about msot of it. Just the moral stuff. I think people who are pro-abortion are extremists. Period.Nothing personal.

You really dont know me, Stephen...

I just don't thik you understand what abortion is. ITS GENOCIDAL. millions upon millions of unbornd babies killed every year. Doesn't that BOTHER you?

[Ana4Stapp]

[QUOTE]Ana, I find abortion to be killing babies, so if you are pro-abortion--which you have said you are--then I believe you are for killing babies.

I NEVER, NEVER said I was pro-abortion-and I'm not. Definitely.Not. I said women has the right to choose it, not the religion...Its not the same to say Im pro abortion...I AM NOT!!!!!!! Why you cant understand it????

Meh, conservatives, liberals, blah blah. I don't care about msot of it. Just the moral stuff. I think people who are pro-abortion are extremists. Period.Nothing personal.

Extremists as you said once - are just stupid people full of ignorance. And Im not a n extremist.

I just don't thik you understand what abortion is. ITS GENOCIDAL. millions upon millions of unbornd babies killed every year. Doesn't that BOTHER you?[/

Again????? All I can say is that after six months -(I think)-You clearly DONT know me at all!!!!! You know what bothers me? Your words. QUOTE]

Again thanks Mr. Moral,..after saying that im an extremist, a liberal- now Im a killer babies... :mad: what's the next ????

[Chase]

Uncertain... despite our difference in opinion regarding war... I do agree with you regarding abortion. Except in the cases of rape, incest, or if the mother's life is in jeopardy... I see abortion as senseless irresponsibility on the mother's part.

[Ana4Stapp]

I think exactly the same in the cases you mentioned, Chase.




PS: Oh, but after saying that of course someone will say that Im for pro - abortion anyway... :rolleyes:

[HeavenBesideYou]

It depends. If we get Roe v. Wade overturned or major hits against Stem Cell research or something like that, I'll be happy with this four year term... Otherwise, I'll be pissed, cuz the only reason I wanted Bush in is because of his stance on issues like that. Certainly didn't want him in because of his terrorism policy.No offense, but like half of the country, you voted with your heart on maybe 3 key issues that got GWB re-elected...

Unfortunately there's nothing he can do to change any of them.

You were mislead into believing he could if you thought so.

Heaven

:pimp:

[Ana4Stapp]

Seems someone run away from here... :rolleyes:

[uncertaindrumer]

I NEVER, NEVER said I was pro-abortion-and I'm not. Definitely.Not. I said women has the right to choose it, not the religion...Its not the same to say Im pro abortion...I AM NOT!!!!!!! Why you cant understand it????

You are trying to draw a line where there isn't one. that's liek saying YOU wouldn't murder, but OTHER people can.



Extremists as you said once - are just stupid people full of ignorance. And Im not a n extremist.

I didn't say stupid people full of ignorance. I said ignorant people who don't know when to quite. Regarding your views on abortion I would probably amend my statement. You don't have extremist views. Just amoral ones.





Again thanks Mr. Moral,..after saying that im an extremist, a liberal- now Im a killer babies... :mad: what's the next ????

well liberal is hardly an insult. I didnt say you PERSONLLY were a killer. But don't you sanction it? You have said again and again you think it should be legal.

[uncertaindrumer]

No offense, but like half of the country, you voted with your heart on maybe 3 key issues that got GWB re-elected...

Unfortunately there's nothing he can do to change any of them.

You were mislead into believing he could if you thought so.

Heaven

:pimp:

Actually I didn't even vote. And even then, I don't regret that Bush won. I'd rather have Bush in then Kerry. They were both crappy crappy crappy candidates. Notice how Bush keeps telling us we have to sacrifice in this war, and how the American people will be strong and reslilient, and then he... takes vacations longer than the mississippi river and hangs out with buddies like Lance Armstrong?

[uncertaindrumer]

Uncertain... despite our difference in opinion regarding war...

It isn't so much a difference on Iraq as a difference in general. I'll never forget when you said "If Britain wants to invade us they can take their best shot :D

I do agree with you regarding abortion. Except in the cases of rape, incest, or if the mother's life is in jeopardy... I see abortion as senseless irresponsibility on the mother's part.

I really can't say I understand that position. If someone gets raped, should we add ANOTHER wrong onto that?

[Ana4Stapp]

You are trying to draw a line where there isn't one. that's liek saying YOU wouldn't murder, but OTHER people can.





I didn't say stupid people full of ignorance. I said ignorant people who don't know when to quite. Regarding your views on abortion I would probably amend my statement. You don't have extremist views. Just amoral ones.





well liberal is hardly an insult. I didnt say you PERSONLLY were a killer. But don't you sanction it? You have said again and again you think it should be legal.


Oh...someone 's back... :rolleyes:


WHO... are... you... to... JUDGE ...me????? Amoral????? :mad1:


Oh...I forgot...Mr Perfection...you are probably the most moralist guy on CF...


PS: you could add this to your sig... :rolleyes:

[Ana4Stapp]

Actually I didn't even vote. And even then, I don't regret that Bush won. I'd rather have Bush in then Kerry. They were both crappy crappy crappy candidates. Notice how Bush keeps telling us we have to sacrifice in this war, and how the American people will be strong and reslilient, and then he... takes vacations longer than the mississippi river and hangs out with buddies like Lance Armstrong?


Why you didnt vote????? hun???? :peoplesey dont have the proper age to it?

lol:poke:

[HeavenBesideYou]

It depends. If we get Roe v. Wade overturned or major hits against Stem Cell research or something like that, I'll be happy with this four year term... Otherwise, I'll be pissed, cuz the only reason I wanted Bush in is because of his stance on issues like that. Certainly didn't want him in because of his terrorism policy.
My mistake uncertaindrummer...

Due to this statement, I assumed you voted.

My bad,

Heaven

:pimp:

[PJAmerica]

Government is like Microsoft. When It dominates we hate it but when it shakes our hand we love it. It is comprised within individuals in a overwhelming system that succeeds and fails by human flaw and action just the same. Simple words for concerned matters of thoughts.

"Take part, make a change. Do not ever think complaining or questioning is the resolution when the answer is embedded within the people to take action and make the change"

[uncertaindrumer]

WHO... are... you... to... JUDGE ...me????? Amoral????? :mad1:


Oh...I forgot...Mr Perfection...you are probably the most moralist guy on CF...



Well let's see... You are juding me. You are pissed off at me and think I'm acting in a way which you don't like. So I have every reason on earth to say your opinions on abortion are immoral. They are, and no small amount of people all over the world would say so. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean I am going to mince words. I never do. If you believe abortion should be legal, that is an immoral view. Take that as you will.

[Ana4Stapp]

Well let's see... You are juding me. You are pissed off at me and think I'm acting in a way which you don't like. So I have every reason on earth to say your opinions on abortion are immoral. They are, and no small amount of people all over the world would say so. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean I am going to mince words. I never do. If you believe abortion should be legal, that is an immoral view. Take that as you will.

I dont want you to be condescendent with me ...cause we are arguing, but I think argue is not your point actually you are saying you are RIGHT all the time, having all the perfection and morals with you"having every reason on earth"...
as for me: I have imoral views, wrong ideas ansd extreme liberalism...

This is not a discussion...You dont want to discuss things...just proclaim your perfect opinions..judging mine :rolleyes:



PS: Of course Im pissed off at you...or do you want to see me using loving words...hun???? :rolleyes:

[uncertaindrumer]

I dont want you to be condescendent with me ...cause we are arguing, but I think argue is not your point actually you are saying you are RIGHT all the time, having all the perfection and morals with you"having every reason on earth"...
as for me: I have imoral views, wrong ideas ansd extreme liberalism...

This is not a discussion...You dont want to discuss things...just proclaim your perfect opinions..judging mine :rolleyes:



PS: Of course Im pissed off at you...or do you want to see me using loving words...hun???? :rolleyes:

I'm just sayign things from my side. I am not perfect. I am nowhere near perfect. I don't live up to my own morals. I am just trying to convicne you that abortion is wrong, and you don't seem to think it is.

[Ana4Stapp]

I'm just sayign things from my side. I am not perfect. I am nowhere near perfect. I don't live up to my own morals. I am just trying to convicne you that abortion is wrong, and you don't seem to think it is.


Again?????? :rolleyes: Its quite crazy the way you try to convince me...on and on and on...saying i have immoral views.... :rolleyes:

but AGAIN I say that I DONT support abortion,(did you hear that?) but I think that states all over the world have to rule this subject despite religions doctrines. Because if you are a very religious person, you consenquently will avoid abortion...

My point is not kill the baby...my point is freedom.

Make your choice

[Chase]

It isn't so much a difference on Iraq as a difference in general. I'll never forget when you said "If Britain wants to invade us they can take their best shot :D



I really can't say I understand that position. If someone gets raped, should we add ANOTHER wrong onto that?

If a 13 year girl got raped and consequently got pregnant from the attack... why should she bear the burden bestowed upon her by a sick individual. It's bad enough that the girl will have the mental scars for the rest of her life... but a child at a young age just makes those scars even deeper.

[Chase]

I'm just sayign things from my side. I am not perfect. I am nowhere near perfect. I don't live up to my own morals. I am just trying to convicne you that abortion is wrong, and you don't seem to think it is.

What I find amazing is that you're so adamantly against abortion, but so lenient to dictators and despots who commit genocide (and kill innocent people on a much larger scale.)

[Chase]

Actually I didn't even vote. And even then, I don't regret that Bush won. I'd rather have Bush in then Kerry. They were both crappy crappy crappy candidates. Notice how Bush keeps telling us we have to sacrifice in this war, and how the American people will be strong and reslilient, and then he... takes vacations longer than the mississippi river and hangs out with buddies like Lance Armstrong?

A President can control the United States from the air and all points on the globe. Going to Crawford, Texas doesn't mean he drops his duties as President. I remember Bill Clinton constantly doing things that could be classified as leisure. Lance Armstrong, by the way, is one of the greatest athletes in American history... he's earned the right to go on a freaking bike ride with the President of the United States.

[Ana4Stapp]

What I find amazing is that you're so adamantly against abortion, but so lenient to dictators and despots who commit genocide (and kill innocent people on a much larger scale.)


Well, this post is not for me but I have to say that:

Even though I sincerily dont see uncertain being lenient with dictators, (I dont believe: after you 've attacked me Im defending you...) you mentioned a very important subject that is constantly forgotten:children killed at wars and dictatorials regimes all over the world.
Good point,Chase. ;)

[uncertaindrumer]

but AGAIN I say that I DONT support abortion,(did you hear that?) but I think that states all over the world have to rule this subject despite religions doctrines. Because if you are a very religious person, you consenquently will avoid abortion...

It is not jsut a religious issue, unless "killing" is a religious issue. Ana, is abortion murder? Becuase if it is, it should be illegal. And if its not... meh, who cares, its not wrong, everyone should be able to do it.

My point is not kill the baby...my point is freedom.

Freedom to kill?

[uncertaindrumer]

A President can control the United States from the air and all points on the globe. Going to Crawford, Texas doesn't mean he drops his duties as President. I remember Bill Clinton constantly doing things that could be classified as leisure. Lance Armstrong, by the way, is one of the greatest athletes in American history... he's earned the right to go on a freaking bike ride with the President of the United States.

Wow. The excuses people make for Bush. The guy has taken more vacation time than any president in recent history. They don't call it vacation for nothing. He is not doing his job while on hsi ranch, he is taking vacation.

[uncertaindrumer]

If a 13 year girl got raped and consequently got pregnant from the attack... why should she bear the burden bestowed upon her by a sick individual. It's bad enough that the girl will have the mental scars for the rest of her life... but a child at a young age just makes those scars even deeper.

So then you DON'T believe abortion is murder? Then why be against it?

A 13 year old getting raped is a horrible thing, but then commiting a murder on top of that won't fix things. You don't think havign an abortion will create deep emotional scars?

[Ana4Stapp]

Freedom to kill?


YOU ... ARE... CHANGING... MY... WORDS... :mad1:

[Ana4Stapp]

Freedom to live, uncertain! ;)


13 year old getting raped is a horrible thing, but then commiting a murder on top of that won't fix things. You don't think havign an abortion will create deep emotional scars?

How can a 13 year old girl takes care of a child being herself still a child?

Also, a girl that had suffer an enormous sexual violence and consequently got emotionally problems, having deep emotional scars-like you said- until her final days is able to give love and bring up the child with loving care ? I cant believe in that.

[uncertaindrumer]

Freedom to live, uncertain! ;)




How can a 13 year old girl takes care of a child being herself still a child?

Also, a girl that had suffer an enormous sexual violence and consequently got emotionally problems, having deep emotional scars-like you said- until her final days is able to give love and bring up the child with loving care ? I cant believe in that.

She doesn't have to take care of the child. She can give it to an adoption center or something along those lines.

My position here is that there ARE moral absolutes despite what a secualr society tells us. Now it is IMMORAL to have an abortion for any reason, in my belief system, because it is the purposeful and intent murdering of an innocent. It would be immoral to murder an innocent life even to save thousands, much less to make it more conveniant for people.

Chase's opinion to me seems contradictory: "Abortion is murder, but in certain cases, murder is alright". That just doesn't hold any water. Now if his opinion is that abortion ISN'T murder, thigns change, but since the only reason abortion would be wrong is if its murder, its hard to accept that position.

[uncertaindrumer]

YOU ... ARE... CHANGING... MY... WORDS... :mad1:

I am not putting words in your mouth. DO YOU THINK ABORTION IS WRONG OR NOT? If it's wrong, than you are basically saying "We should haev the freedom to kill". If you DON'T think abortion is murder, well then i am confused as to why we are discussing this at all.

[Ana4Stapp]

I am not putting words in your mouth. DO YOU THINK ABORTION IS WRONG OR NOT? If it's wrong, than you are basically saying "We should haev the freedom to kill". If you DON'T think abortion is murder, well then i am confused as to why we are discussing this at all.


I AM CONFUSED now!!! You are confusing me-We ve discussed it for a long time, posting about that, but all i have to say that: abortion is not a good thing, its a violence of course- I know the methods doctors use to do that--they are all horrible methods...and the first time I "saw" them I get shocked...
But also, I think abortion can be allowed in the cases Chase mentioned. And i still think abortion is not a religious issue-if you are religious you wont do that. ;)

[Ana4Stapp]

She doesn't have to take care of the child. She can give it to an adoption center or something along those lines.
.

How can you say that? How a mother(even if shes a girl) can keep the baby for nine months and after that -give her baby to adoption??? Well, i know this kind of thig happens all the time-but I cant believe YOU are saying that... Are you insinuating that the girl can abandon her baby? Is it not a sin?So is it wrong to "kill the baby"-like you said but is not to abandon the child?

Is it your point? I must misunderstood your comment... :rolleyes:

[uncertaindrumer]

I AM CONFUSED now!!! You are confusing me-We ve discussed it for a long time, posting about that, but all i have to say that: abortion is not a good thing, its a violence of course- I know the methods doctors use to do that--they are all horrible methods...and the first time I "saw" them I get shocked...
But also, I think abortion can be allowed in the cases Chase mentioned. And i still think abortion is not a religious issue-if you are religious you wont do that. ;)

Is murder a religious issue? Just answer me that.

[uncertaindrumer]

How can you say that? How a mother(even if shes a girl) can keep the baby for nine months and after that -give her baby to adoption??? Well, i know this kind of thig happens all the time-but I cant believe YOU are saying that... Are you insinuating that the girl can abandon her baby? Is it not a sin?So is it wrong to "kill the baby"-like you said but is not to abandon the child?

Is it your point? I must misunderstood your comment... :rolleyes:

No, giving a baby up for adoption whom you know you cannot care for yourself is not a sin, its the responsible thing to do. You say you can't believe someone could give up a baby and at the same time want mothers killing their unborn? Ana you have me confused to death.

[Ana4Stapp]

Is murder a religious issue? Just answer me that.

No, I think its not.

[Ana4Stapp]

No, giving a baby up for adoption whom you know you cannot care for yourself is not a sin, its the responsible thing to do. You say you can't believe someone could give up a baby and at the same time want mothers killing their unborn? Ana you have me confused to death.


Lol! Oh boy...I said so much things this evening that I even dont know what I'm saying ...jk :rolleyes:

But Ill try again: Maybe you are RIGHT concerning to the responsible thing to do in that case. But is it a MORAL thing to do? Since you are always trying to put things in a moral way, Im wondering...

Is it a sin...of course it is... by the way, today morning i read on web that someone found a baby in a box -still with the umbilical cord (-dont know where it happens) and it got me depressed.

Anyway, if you think mothers sometimes need to do that-giving her children to adoption you can say that sometimes women needs to do an abotion...isnt the same ? In the two cases they are renouncing themselves to be mothers.

Also, a woman that makes an abortion-that is until 3 months,by the way -dont have a real bond with the "baby" but a woman that has a baby inside her for 9 months clearily get a connection of affection with her child. Its not the same thing. No way.

[uncertaindrumer]

Lol! Oh boy...I said so much things this evening that I even dont know what I'm saying ...jk :rolleyes:

Yeah, we are both pretty confused.

Is it a sin...of course it is... by the way, today morning i read on web that someone found a baby in a box -still with the umbilical cord (-dont know where it happens) and it got me depressed.

There is such a HUGE difference between LITERALLY abandoning your baby by putting it in a box, and giving it to an adoption center, that its not even funny. Giving up a baby for adoption who you KNOW you can't care for or be responsible for is not a sin, it is the RIGHT thing to do.

Anyway, if you think mothers sometimes need to do that-giving her children to adoption you can say that sometimes women needs to do an abotion...isnt the same ? In the two cases they are renouncing themselves to be mothers.

No, it is nowhere near the same. In one case, you are being open to life, bringing a new child into the world, and then letting someone else take care of him/her because you CAN'T. In the other, you are NOT being open to life, you are killig an unborn baby.

Finally, you say mruder is not a religious issue. Well, what is it then? After all, it is illegal for no other reason then that the majority frowns upon it. I am sure certain "religions" would have no problem with murder. So why do we legislate THAT?

But either way, do you believe abortion is murder? If so, you cna't say its just a religious issue, and if not, you can't say really its a bad thing. You are trying to reach a middle ground where there isn't one.

[Ana4Stapp]

Yeah, we are both pretty confused.

Definitely -lol

There is such a HUGE difference between LITERALLY abandoning your baby by putting it in a box, and giving it to an adoption center, that its not even funny. Giving up a baby for adoption who you KNOW you can't care for or be responsible for is not a sin, it is the RIGHT thing to do.

Yeah...thinking better...I think you are RIGHT!! But you know whats the most terrible thing? when a mother after giving her child to adoption becomes pregnant again and again and decides to do the same...

No, it is nowhere near the same. In one case, you are being open to life, bringing a new child into the world, and then letting someone else take care of him/her because you CAN'T. In the other, you are NOT being open to life, you are killig an unborn baby.

Hunn, I got your point, but in the two cases mentioned the mother cant keep the baby- so the situation is the same.

Finally, you say mruder is not a religious issue. Well, what is it then? After all, it is illegal for no other reason then that the majority frowns upon it. I am sure certain "religions" would have no problem with murder. So why do we legislate THAT?

What religions? I think, even though you know Im not a religious person, theres no religion that allow murder, or it cant be recognized as a religion.I didnt get it.

But of course in the past , even the Catholic Church used violent methods to impose itself.

But either way, do you believe abortion is murder? If so, you cna't say its just a religious issue, and if not, you can't say really its a bad thing. You are trying to reach a middle ground where there isn't one

I think abortion is a BAD thing!

[Chase]

Wow. The excuses people make for Bush. The guy has taken more vacation time than any president in recent history. They don't call it vacation for nothing. He is not doing his job while on hsi ranch, he is taking vacation.

Wow, the complete ignorance some people show just to slander Bush. Do some research... the President of the United States of America can run this country from any point on the planet. Every President in recent history has had their specific home outside of the White House. The modern U.S. precidency is molded in such a way that whoever is Head of State can be Head of State ANYWHERE. The President has been traveling around giving speeches and addressing the current events publicly quite frequently. Pay attention.

[Chase]

She doesn't have to take care of the child. She can give it to an adoption center or something along those lines.

My position here is that there ARE moral absolutes despite what a secualr society tells us. Now it is IMMORAL to have an abortion for any reason, in my belief system, because it is the purposeful and intent murdering of an innocent. It would be immoral to murder an innocent life even to save thousands, much less to make it more conveniant for people.

Chase's opinion to me seems contradictory: "Abortion is murder, but in certain cases, murder is alright". That just doesn't hold any water. Now if his opinion is that abortion ISN'T murder, thigns change, but since the only reason abortion would be wrong is if its murder, its hard to accept that position.

You're misquoting me. Don't quote words I didn't say. Pregnancy is not easy for anyone, let alone a 13 year old girl who is the victim of a vicious rape. Why should a young girl's world be completely changed physically, emotionally, and psychologically just because of terrible events that happened beyond her will. You think it's easy to carry a child for 9 months? It's dispicable that you think a young rape victim should carry that burden. Dispicable.

[uncertaindrumer]

Wow, the complete ignorance some people who show just to slander Bush. Do some research... the President of the United States of America can run this country from any point on the planet. Every President in recent history has had their specific home outside of the White House. The modern U.S. precidency is molded in such a way that whoever is Head of State can be Head of State ANYWHERE. The President has been traveling around giving speeches and addressing the current events publicly quite frequently. Pay attention.

Lol, dude, chill. I never said he CAN'T control thigns from his house. But he isn't. Where is the big sacrifice that he is making? What is HE doing to further our country's needs?

[uncertaindrumer]

You're misquoting me. Don't quote words I didn't say. Pregnancy is not easy for anyone, let alone a 13 year old girl who is the victim of a vicious rape. Why should a young girl's world be completely changed physically, emotionally, and psychologically just because of terrible events that happened beyond her will. You think it's easy to carry a child for 9 months? It's dispicable that you think a young rape victim should carry that burden. Dispicable.

Wait, you say I'm misquoting you and then you go on to pointedly spell out what I jsut quoted you as saying. You either A) don't think abortion is murder in which case I am extremely confused as to your position, or B) Think it is murder in which case you are saying it is better to kill someone than for a 13-year old to endure a pregnancy. Which is it?

[uncertaindrumer]

Yeah...thinking better...I think you are RIGHT!! But you know whats the most terrible thing? when a mother after giving her child to adoption becomes pregnant again and again and decides to do the same...

Sure. You can turn almost any action into something bad if you do it for the wrong reasons. If you are putting chidlren in adoption centers jsut because you don't FEEL like caring for them or because you odn't WANT to spend the money on them that you DO have, that would be bad.



Hunn, I got your point, but in the two cases mentioned the mother can keep the baby- so the situation is the same.

Huh?



What religions? I think, even though you know Im not a religious person, theres no religion that allow murder, or it cant be recognized as a religion.I didnt get it.

Wait, hold on, there's no religion that allows murder? What about Islamic extremists? Now who is to say that they are wrong? Well, The STATE says that murder is illegal. Why? Is it a moral thing? If so, then the State CAN legislate moral issues. If its not... then Abortion isn't either.

But of course in the past , even the Catholic Church used violent methods to impose itself.

Why do you insist on taking cheap shots like this? We all know that many men and women in the Church have done bad things. Many men and women in ANY institution of ANYTHING of all time have always done bad things.



I think abortion is a BAD thing!

Why?

[Ana4Stapp]

]Sure. You can turn almost any action into something bad if you do it for the wrong reasons. If you are putting chidlren in adoption centers jsut because you don't FEEL like caring for them or because you odn't WANT to spend the money on them that you DO have, that would be bad.

Yeah, and this kind of thing really gets me mad.

Huh?

Lol...Im so tired that I didnt even read what I was writing...sorry :o
"CANT Keep the baby"- means that in the two cases they dont have any conditions -economics, psychological...etc to keep the baby and so they are renouncing of being mother.




Wait, hold on, there's no religion that allows murder? What about Islamic extremists? Now who is to say that they are wrong? Well, The STATE says that murder is illegal. Why? Is it a moral thing? If so, then the State CAN legislate moral issues. If its not... then Abortion isn't either.


Like you said they are extremists...they are ignorants , they use faith to keep the ignorance... do you think that all islamic people are extremists?

Why do you insist on taking cheap shots like this? We all know that many men and women in the Church have done bad things. Many men and women in ANY institution of ANYTHING of all time have always done bad things.

:rolleyes: I warned you...Stephen...I warned you......lol

Im not insisting ....But wahts the problem??? It seems you got it right...Its waht I said. I just put Catholic Church as an example. Sorry , didnt mean to offend Catholicism.


Why?

Because it means death...and death has a negative meaning in our society, concerning to the Christianity 's idea of beggining and end.

wow..you almost got me there...lol :D

[Bridge of Clay]

Ah ah ah!!!

Stop everything!!! I just read page 1 where Ana says she "supports and loves" the Brazilian President!!!

geez...

From now on her posts aren't plausible. Her concept just went all downhill...

[Ana4Stapp]

Ah ah ah!!!

Stop everything!!! I just read page 1 where Ana says she "supports and loves" the Brazilian President!!!

geez...

From now on her posts aren't plausible. Her concept just went all downhill...


Ah Marcos, do you really believe that corruption in Brazil just started now, I mean with this governemnt? Because if you do- you are an incredibly ingenuous guy... :rolleyes:

Also, our President is doing the necessary to find and punish the involved guys, and hes not personally involved in it, but the "right"s parties are taking the advantage of the situation to avoid his re-election.Pay attention :Its too obvious.He had an enormous popularity, now he's losing it ...
By the way, did you vote for Serra? :eek:

And of course we cant stop everything...I need to prove to Uncertain he's wrong what means I'm completely RIGHT"!!!!!!! lol :D

[Bridge of Clay]

(dupplicated post, please remove this one!)

[Bridge of Clay]

c'mon... you're blind! Lulla knew everything about the corruption schem.

I don't think corruption started now, but I always knew it was way worse within PT. And Lulla isn't doing shit... He knew it, and he's involved. PT is a party of former terrorists, "landless" and "homeless" organizations that have the same means of Castro and FARCs in its roots. Dirceu did take a swing at it, but as plan to do a turn to socialism in Brazil in the future (around 2010...).

PT has no ethics.. they pose like saints but they're worse than everybody else, it's a bunch of hypocrites. And I did vote for Serra, coz I had no other option. And I voted for him again for Mayor of São Paulo.

My dad works with the city hall to approve projects and stuff... he saw how dirty it is.

Not to mention the Celso Daniel case as well as the mayor of Campinas... it's plain sick.

As for the "right parties", they're doing nothing... all acusations and reports came from allies. Opposition is just giving time to the goverment hang themselves. If it was back in 1994, when FHC was the president... it would be loads of pressure from PT to impeach him. Why PT doesn't make this pressure now?

I've never seen so many scandals at once... and a drunk man with no education thinking he runs the country but doesn't do anything. The only good minister we have is Palocci, but even he's some sort of scandal...

And you aren't right, you're LEFT! ;)

[uncertaindrumer]

Yeah, and this kind of thing really gets me mad.

Me as well.



Lol...Im so tired that I didnt even read what I was writing...sorry :o
"CANT Keep the baby"- means that in the two cases they dont have any conditions -economics, psychological...etc to keep the baby and so they are renouncing of being mother.

That is a CONSQUENCE of the action. But the action itself is

a) Killing their baby
OR
b) Giving their baby to someone else.







Like you said they are extremists...they are ignorants , they use faith to keep the ignorance... do you think that all islamic people are extremists?

No. Most people assume murder is wrong so just about every country in the civilized world legislates against it. Why? Why ana? Because it is morally wrong? IF SO, then abortion is well within reach of legislation. If NOT because its morally wrong but for some other reason, than that "other" reason, whatever it is, could easily be used to legislate abortion.



:rolleyes: I warned you...Stephen...I warned you......lol

Im not insisting ....But wahts the problem??? It seems you got it right...Its waht I said. I just put Catholic Church as an example. Sorry , didnt mean to offend Catholicism.

You put the Catholic Church as an example cuz u kenw it would bug me. :rolleyes:




Because it means death...and death has a negative meaning in our society, concerning to the Christianity 's idea of beggining and end.

wow..you almost got me there...lol :D

Actually, I DID get you. You think abortion is wrong because it is death. Well that means its murder, and that means it is NEVER morally permissible. Unless of course you want us to make murder legal as well. Do you? I would hope not, and if that cas,e the argument is over. I won ;)

[uncertaindrumer]

c'mon... you're blind! Lulla knew everything about the corruption schem.

I don't think corruption started now, but I always knew it was way worse within PT. And Lulla isn't doing shit... He knew it, and he's involved. PT is a party of former terrorists, "landless" and "homeless" organizations that have the same means of Castro and FARCs in its roots. Dirceu did take a swing at it, but as plan to do a turn to socialism in Brazil in the future (around 2010...).

PT has no ethics.. they pose like saints but they're worse than everybody else, it's a bunch of hypocrites. And I did vote for Serra, coz I had no other option. And I voted for him again for Mayor of São Paulo.

My dad works with the city hall to approve projects and stuff... he saw how dirty it is.

Not to mention the Celso Daniel case as well as the mayor of Campinas... it's plain sick.

As for the "right parties", they're doing nothing... all acusations and reports came from allies. Opposition is just giving time to the goverment hang themselves. If it was back in 1994, when FHC was the president... it would be loads of pressure from PT to impeach him. Why PT doesn't make this pressure now?

I've never seen so many scandals at once... and a drunk man with no education thinking he runs the country but doesn't do anything. The only good minister we have is Palocci, but even he's some sort of scandal...

And you aren't right, you're LEFT! ;)

I know absolutely nothing about Brazilian politics but for some strange reason I think I would agree with Marcos if I did :D

[Bridge of Clay]

hahaha Stephen rocks!!!

But just to make it a bit clearer:

Brazilian Right is similar to American left, and the American Right would be an Extreme Brazilian Right... and our left would be you Extreme Left...

what a mess! I hope it makes sense... :)

[uncertaindrumer]

Brazilian Right is similar to American left, and the American Right would be an Extreme Brazilian Right... and our left would be you Extreme Left...

:eek:

I am so confused you have no idea. lol

Either way... I don't ALWAYS agree with one side. But I tend to DISAGREE with Ana, so... lol

[Ana4Stapp]

I know absolutely nothing about Brazilian politics but for some strange reason I think I would agree with Marcos if I did :D

Why???? You said you dont know nothing about Brazilian politics...why youare going to agree with Marcos? Strange reason????? Which is that? :mad:

You clearly saying you choose a side WITHOUT know absolutly nothing about Brazil...am I assuming you did it for one reason...just to bother me...or because : :rolleyes:
hunn... and maybe i need to stop talk to you...

[Ana4Stapp]

:eek:

I am so confused you have no idea. lol

Either way... I don't ALWAYS agree with one side. But I tend to DISAGREE with Ana, so... lol

No comments... :mad1: :mad:


PS: And dont say that:Are you pissed off at me Ana???? After that, OF COURSE IM PISSED OFF AT YOU, Stephen...hate you...

PS: By the way, we clearly disagreed at religious issues...but I dont recall disagreing at politcs ...BUT if you wanna start it...Im here :rolleyes:

[Ana4Stapp]

c'mon... you're blind! Lulla knew everything about the corruption schem.

I don't think corruption started now, but I always knew it was way worse within PT. And Lulla isn't doing shit... He knew it, and he's involved. PT is a party of former terrorists, "landless" and "homeless" organizations that have the same means of Castro and FARCs in its roots. Dirceu did take a swing at it, but as plan to do a turn to socialism in Brazil in the future (around 2010...).

PT has no ethics.. they pose like saints but they're worse than everybody else, it's a bunch of hypocrites. And I did vote for Serra, coz I had no other option. And I voted for him again for Mayor of São Paulo.

My dad works with the city hall to approve projects and stuff... he saw how dirty it is.

Not to mention the Celso Daniel case as well as the mayor of Campinas... it's plain sick.

As for the "right parties", they're doing nothing... all acusations and reports came from allies. Opposition is just giving time to the goverment hang themselves. If it was back in 1994, when FHC was the president... it would be loads of pressure from PT to impeach him. Why PT doesn't make this pressure now?

I've never seen so many scandals at once... and a drunk man with no education thinking he runs the country but doesn't do anything. The only good minister we have is Palocci, but even he's some sort of scandal...

And you aren't right, you're LEFT! ;)


Thanks God IM LEFT!!!!!!!!!!

And you know NOTHING about politcs...or even about Brazil history...by the way, did you study it? Seriously?

Corruption always existed in Brazil , in all countriesm, by the way, I can tell you alot of them... But its not my point...

The point is now, my friend, the scandals camer to the media cause we live in a democracy...which our president helped to build it....

And you seem so forgetful, dont you remember Collor's scandals? military years of corruption???? Did you forget it???? Maybe you are too young to remember that? Oh mayb eyou said"we were happy and we didnt know that..."

Did you know this scheme started in FHC governemnt- thjat by the way, ruined our economy, increasing the poverty and unemployment? Did you forget it? A lot of national companies were privatized...a lot of people in the streets...Did you forget it???? Education and culture were ruined...the only thing they did was put the children at school, but without any type of preoccupation, just thinking about the statistics. did you forget it? the horrible situation of the federal hospitals -where doctors dont get the essencial to work and so have to decide "choose" someone to save- did you forget it? and the situation of the pensioners -waiting in line to receive their enourmous quanitty of money did you forget it? all the money we sent to FMI while the children were on streets begging- did you forget it?

OH you MUST forgot it!!!!!!!!!!!! But let me remind you something: it didnt start at PTs governemnet, it started with ALL the time the rights parties were in the power: what means ALWAYS-since 1822- Our country was ruled by the elite SINCE independency... oh but ...all the problems we have started with PT ...they started in 2003....oh guy...mayb eyou need some history classes.. :rolleyes:

PS1: OF course you need some history classes - you voted for Serra... :rolleyes:


PS2: Uncertain, are you still with Marcos?????hun???? :mad:

[Ana4Stapp]

I've never seen so many scandals at once... and a drunk man with no education thinking he runs the country but doesn't do anything. The only good minister we have is Palocci, but even he's some sort of scandal...

And you aren't right, you're LEFT! ;)

You could at leat show some respect: by the way, we had a lot of very educated, illustrated president like FHC-a sociologist- that wrote a lot of (crappy) books with crappy ideas- and tell me waht s the difference?
waht he did for brazillian people? Besides giving our money to FMI????



PS: Oh guy...I loved you... :(

[Ana4Stapp]

[QUOTE]You put the Catholic Church as an example cuz u kenw it would bug me. :rolleyes:

No , to your absolutely surprise I dont- Im not a child to acting like this by the way, Do you really think YOU are so IMPORTANT????


Actually, I DID get you. You think abortion is wrong because it is death. Well that means its murder, and that means it is NEVER morally permissible. Unless of course you want us to make murder legal as well. Do you? I would hope not, and if that cas,e the argument is over. I won ;)

No YOU DONT!!!!!!!! You *ALMOST* did-lol

Also, I dont intend to put a"white flag" to you ,uh.... my ..."friend"... :rolleyes:

I never said abortion was murder...you are jumping to conclusions(like you always do)...but of course it is a BAD thing...because it means DEATH...

[uncertaindrumer]

Lol, first off Ana, you took the "I think I'd agree with Marcos" line way too seriously. It was a joke because me and you seem to disagree on everything as of late.

[QUOTE]




No , to your absolutely surprise I dont- Im not a child to acting like this by the way, Do you really think YOU are so IMPORTANT????




No YOU DONT!!!!!!!! You *ALMOST* did-lol

Also, I dont intend to put a"white flag" to you ,uh.... my ..."friend"... :rolleyes:

I never said abortion was murder...you are jumping to conclusions(like you always do)...but of course it is a BAD thing...because it means DEATH...

Unh-uh, no way you are geting away with that. If abortion means death it means someone is DYING. And guess what, someone else is WILLING that death of a totally innocent person, which is, in most circles, called murder. Ana, you are usually logical; how can you possibly believe this manure? Abortion means death but it ISN'T death? What kind of nonsense is that? You KNOW that can't be possible. You are again trying to avoid saying abortion is urder but you can't do it. You admiited it was death, which means its murder. Period.

[Ana4Stapp]

Lol, first off Ana, you took the "I think I'd agree with Marcos" line way too seriously. It was a joke because me and you seem to disagree on everything as of late.

I AM KIDDING!!! Dont you know? :D

Ahh, but actually we ONLY disagree about religion not on "everything"... :rolleyes:

Also, I wont stop to talk to you... not yet...:rolleyes:

Unh-uh, no way you are geting away with that. If abortion means death it means someone is DYING. And guess what, someone else is WILLING that death of a totally innocent person, which is, in most circles, called murder. Ana, you are usually logical; how can you possibly believe this manure? Abortion means death but it IS
N'T death? What kind of nonsense is that? You KNOW that can't be possible. You are again trying to avoid saying abortion is urder but you can't do it. You admiited it was death, which means its murder. Period.

Again...its getting boring...

[uncertaindrumer]

Again...its getting boring...

Well what the heck? You suddenly decide its not worth talking about? This isn't "again". You have never claimed that abortion is "death" before. If abortion means someone is dying, it measn someone is killing that innocent defenseless unborn child. And you are telling me that should be LEGAL?

[Ana4Stapp]

Well what the heck? You suddenly decide its not worth talking about? This isn't "again". You have never claimed that abortion is "death" before. If abortion means someone is dying, it measn someone is killing that innocent defenseless unborn child. And you are telling me that should be LEGAL?

Well, "again" means you are trying to guide my thought...incredible... :rolleyes:

Look, Im not givin up, but Im confused now-you are confusing me...lol

let me try again- You say we must avoid abortion as a legal thing, whats the difference? You know a lot of women are going to continue to do it anyway...


Also, you said abortion is legal in the US, so clarify that: are there a campaign to put it as ilegal? Is that? whats the Bush governement position? Please clarify that.

Because in Brazil-where abortion is forbidden -except in cases like rape and mothers life in risk-so theres a big campaign to keep it ilegal...

[Bridge of Clay]

oh boy... I'm gonna have to make one of those huge posts when I get home.

I've never said corruption never existed in Brazil... it always did. Of course, you being a History teacher you were brainwashed while in college... hehehe just kidding! I'm saying that coz I don't know any History teacher who wasn't a leftist and didn't try to make student's mind.

My point was PT always posed like Ethics and Honesty superstars for the spotlights, but in the backstage they are way worse than the other parties. And that's what pisses me off.

and yes, I could've been more respectful to Lulla... but he's sitting in his chair mocking us and I can't accept that. The only correct thing within this goverment is Palocci. But there's still a long long way to run.

[Ana4Stapp]

oh boy... I'm gonna have to make one of those huge posts when I get home.

Sorry...but you got me mad... :o

I've never said corruption never existed in Brazil... it always did.
Sure. not only in Brazil, but all over the world.

Of course, you being a History teacher you were brainwashed while in college... hehehe just kidding! I'm saying that coz I don't know any History teacher who wasn't a leftist and didn't try to make student's mind.

Very funny! :rolleyes: Maybe because History teachers are intelligent people trying to put "some" inteligence in students empty minds-D

My point was PT always posed like Ethics and Honesty superstars for the spotlights, but in the backstage they are way worse than the other parties. And that's what pisses me off.

So you are disapointed...I m too. Everyone in Brazil is disapointed...But also, I never thought PT was the perfect party and I agree with you - I think all the members involved must be punished, no one here is saying different.Dirceu is not a "saint", of course hes involved, he needs to "pay" for that.

and yes, I could've been more respectful to Lulla... but he's sitting in his chair mocking us and I can't accept that. The only correct thing within this goverment is Palocci. But there's still a long long way to run.

As for Lula (isnt Lulla , please!) I think he's "lost", without direction ....maybe he knew the scheme, but I dont believe in his involvment...he always seemed a great guy...
But i also agree that he needs to do something or he will be punished for that. behaviour.

PS: I think I still love you... ;)

[uncertaindrumer]

Well, "again" means you are trying to guide my thought...incredible... :rolleyes:

"Guide"? your thoughts? Well in all honesty, since abortion is illegal in Brazil, I don't really care what you think from a national perspective. But from a personal perspective I would definitely try to convince you abortion is wrong.

let me try again- You say we must avoid abortion as a legal thing, whats the difference? You know a lot of women are going to continue to do it anyway...

WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE?! Maybe the fact that abortions will become MUCH less common? The fact that this slaughter of the most innocent among us will at least be SLOWED? The easing of a national conscience, and the hope that maybe the U.S. still HAS a national conscience? What could be less important than illegalizing the slaughter children?


Also, you said abortion is legal in the US, so clarify that: are there a campaign to put it as ilegal? Is that? whats the Bush governement position? Please clarify that.

In the U.S. it would be a state to state thing. About 30 states would be expected to outlaw abortion, IF the Federal government hadn't passed a law that says they can't. With new Supreme Court nominees getting elected though, there is the hope that this ruling (Roe v. Wade) will get overturned and then the states can do as they please. So even a BEST case scenario would just make it POSSIBLE for states to outlaw it, but that is definitely a good start.

Bush is agaisnt abortion and so are just about all republicans. Reublicans control the house senate and presidency, but unfortunately they don't control the Supreme Court.

Because in Brazil-where abortion is forbidden -except in cases like rape and mothers life in risk-so theres a big campaign to keep it illegal...

Thank goodness.

[Ana4Stapp]

"Guide"? your thoughts? Well in all honesty, since abortion is illegal in Brazil, I don't really care what you think from a national perspective. But from a personal perspective I would definitely try to convince you abortion is wrong.

Lol...take it easy! Not sure about the difference of "what I think"-lol
but are you trying to convince me abortion is wrong? Really - I never
realized that... :rolleyes: -jk
Also, "guide" is probably a wrong word to use in this case-sorry.

WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE?! Maybe the fact that abortions will become MUCH less common? The fact that this slaughter of the most innocent among us will at least be SLOWED? The easing of a national conscience, and the hope that maybe the U.S. still HAS a national conscience? What could be less important than illegalizing the slaughter children?

Yo put the thing in a very dramatic way- But seriously -you really believe that being illegal abortion will be much less commom? You are so ingenuous, cause women will continue doing that anyway.Be sure. : Put abortion illegal wont stop its practice.


In the U.S. it would be a state to state thing. About 30 states would be expected to outlaw abortion, IF the Federal government hadn't passed a law that says they can't. With new Supreme Court nominees getting elected though, there is the hope that this ruling (Roe v. Wade) will get overturned and then the states can do as they please. So even a BEST case scenario would just make it POSSIBLE for states to outlaw it, but that is definitely a good start.Bush is agaisnt abortion and so are just about all republicans. Reublicans control the house senate and presidency, but unfortunately they don't control the Supreme Court.

What about your state?

Thank goodness.

;)

[uncertaindrumer]

Yo put the thing in a very dramatic way- But seriously -you really believe that being illegal abortion will be much less commom? You are so ingenuous, cause women will continue doing that anyway.Be sure. : Put abortion illegal wont stop its practice.

Of coruse it won't. But that argument is absurd. That's like saying, people are gonna rape anyway, why outlaw it.




What about your state?

Not actually sure. But I think we would. Very conservative Christian state for the most part. But then again even though we always vote for Bush we are still %60 Democrat. Oh well. Who can tell.

[Ana4Stapp]

Of coruse it won't. But that argument is absurd. That's like saying, people are gonna rape anyway, why outlaw it.

Of course its not the same.Why you are ALWAYS changing my words???
But you said if abortion was illegal it consequently would be much less common.You said it.

Murder is illegal and a lot of people are killed every day... drugs is also illegal and unfortunately you see a great number of teenagers/young people using this. Illegality is not the solution.



Not actually sure. But I think we would. Very conservative Christian state for the most part. But then again even though we always vote for Bush we are still %60 Democrat. Oh well. Who can tell.

Its weird..and very contraditory.By the way where did you get that number?( percentage-i mean).

Since you said its a VERY conservative state- let me ask you about the -Creationism and Evolutionism- teachers teach both theories in public schools ? Because theres a campaign to avoid teach Evolutionism in US-I think...is that true? what's your opinion?
As for mine I think we have to teach both theories and not ignore them.

PS: I dont know if you can answer me that...anyway...sorry to ask...

[uncertaindrumer]

Of course its not the same.Why you are ALWAYS changing my words???
But you said if abortion was illegal it consequently would be much less common.You said it.

It WOULD be a lot less common. When you make something illegal, a TON of it stops.

Murder is illegal and a lot of people are killed every day... drugs is also illegal and unfortunately you see a great number of teenagers/young people using this. Illegality is not the solution.

It certainly is a big part. Can you imagine how many murders would happen if it was LEGAL?

Sorry Ana, msot of the time you make sense. But saying abortion wouldn't even slow down if it was made totally illegal is just ignorant.

[Ana4Stapp]

Sorry Ana, msot of the time you make sense. But saying abortion wouldn't even slow down if it was made totally illegal is just ignorant

:mad1: Ignorant????
No its not ignorance, its true, Im telling you what happens here in Brazil where abortion is forbidden- its illegal,( 1940 law allows public hospitals to perform abortions if the woman has been raped or her life is in danger) but you can see a lot of women doing that all the time in certain "clinics", by the way,abortion is a very expensive thing here.
Look I respect your opinion , but I CANT agree with that , being abortion ILLEGAL doenst mean it will stop.
Not sure why you CANT see that.

Also, Im not imagining that...its the reality...believe me... ;)

[Ana4Stapp]

Its intersting, Uncertain:

Read this:http://www.crlp.org/pub_fac_abortion_laws.html

and this:http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/ib12.html (see what Im saying?)

[uncertaindrumer]

:mad1: Ignorant????
No its not ignorance, its true, Im telling you what happens here in Brazil where abortion is forbidden- its illegal,( 1940 law allows public hospitals to perform abortions if the woman has been raped or her life is in danger) but you can see a lot of women doing that all the time in certain "clinics", by the way,abortion is a very expensive thing here.
Look I respect your opinion , but I CANT agree with that , being abortion ILLEGAL doenst mean it will stop.
Not sure why you CANT see that.

Also, Im not imagining that...its the reality...believe me... ;)

Uggh, maybe it is the language difference that is stopping us, but look, I NEVER said all abortions would stop! You keep putting words in my mouth.

At the very least, abortions would slow down. You don't understand tha abortion rate in the U.S. it is LUDICROUSLY high. Even people who don't necessarily think abortion is an inherently moral thing often think there are too many. If it were to become federally illegal (although the chances of that happening are: %0), it would definitely slow thigns down.

[Ana4Stapp]

Uggh, maybe it is the language difference that is stopping us, but look, I NEVER said all abortions would stop!

I dont think so...I got you all the time...not sure about you...

And of course you didnt say ALL abortions would stop...cause it would be IGNORANCE... :D
You keep putting words in my mouth.

Me? Are you crazy? :rolleyes:

At the very least, abortions would slow down. You don't understand tha abortion rate in the U.S. it is LUDICROUSLY high. Even people who don't necessarily think abortion is an inherently moral thing often think there are too many. If it were to become federally illegal (although the chances of that happening are: %0), it would definitely slow thigns down

Maybe...my friend...maybe... ;)

[HeavenBesideYou]

This thread kinda got off track, eh?

Here's a simple question that seems to linger over our current presidents (as well as most cookie cutter christians) head...

How can you be pro war and pro life?

Many unborn children die during war, hell, many people die in war... Pro life should mean just that, either you're all in or step away from the table...

Heaven

:pimp:

[uncertaindrumer]

This thread kinda got off track, eh?

Here's a simple question that seems to linger over our current presidents (as well as most cookie cutter christians) head...

How can you be pro war and pro life?

Many unborn children die during war, hell, many people die in war... Pro life should mean just that, either you're all in or step away from the table...

Heaven

:pimp:

I agree. By the way what exactly is a cookie cutter Christian? lol

[HeavenBesideYou]

I agree. By the way what exactly is a cookie cutter Christian? lol

I believe free children of God must shoulder responsibility, think for themselves, struggle, sweat, puzzle through things, and learn the hard way...

Cookie cutter Christians let someone else do their thinking for them.

It is very rare to find a church that is actually striving to allow the Holy Spirit to be the one to draw people and to work His good and pleasing will in their lives. Instead, we find churches trying to market people’s souls. Watch any church and you will hear people begging you to ask Jesus in your heart. They will tell you that you have purpose in Jesus and that you are of value in Him. You will not, however, hear people warning you against joining nor will you find people saying how they dare not join, but are compelled to anyway by the power of the Spirit!

In fact such a concept is totally foreign in today’s church...

Now read this;

Acts 5:13,14 No one else dared join them, even though they were highly regarded by the people. Nevertheless, more and more men and women believed in the Lord and were added to their number.

Most Christians I know are moving along in the current of popular opinion, popular culture, popular values, popular doctrines. Few people actually find a sense of self and inner validity that comes from their unique identity in God.

The ones that do are special and rare...

God is an artisan, not an assembly line.

Peace,

Heaven

:pimp:

[uncertaindrumer]

Most Christians seem to hide behind OSAS to justify their life styles... I find that despicable.

I think things like "Christian" acceptance of abortion, homosexuality and of course since I'm Catholic, contraception, are all examples of "Christians" jsut bowing to modern culture. Many of them are, I'm sure, well meaning and sincere but clueless also.

[Ana4Stapp]

This thread kinda got off track, eh?

Here's How can you be pro war and pro life?



Very good question!!! :rolleyes:

[Ana4Stapp]

Most Christians seem to hide behind OSAS to justify their life styles... I find that despicable.

I think things like "Christian" acceptance of abortion, homosexuality and of course since I'm Catholic, contraception, are all examples of "Christians" jsut bowing to modern culture. Many of them are, I'm sure, well meaning and sincere but clueless also.

Well I think OSAS is once saved always saved...right? But waht is this real meaning of this? Only christians adopt this idea?

By the way, I also see catholics "accepting" homosexuality and contraception like examples of "modern life"...

[uncertaindrumer]

Well I think OSAS is once saved always saved...right? But waht is this real meaning of this? Only christians adopt this idea?

Lots of protestants hang onto this illogical notion.

By the way, I also see catholics "accepting" homosexuality and contraception like examples of "modern life"...

No you don't. You seeing people CLAIMING to be Catholics accepting them.

[Ana4Stapp]

Lots of protestants hang onto this illogical notion.



No you don't. You seeing people CLAIMING to be Catholics accepting them.

Well...I recall YOU saying you dont have problem with homosexuality... so ...arent you a catholic for saying that? :rolleyes: