Abortion

[Lady Valkyrie]

Is Abortion morally wrong?

When is the fertilized egg finally a real baby verses just a blob of tissue?

Should abortion be an option at all in society?

[allison]

If I may, I'd like to refrain from answering these particular questions for now but would like to say something else about abortion. There is an abortion risk that people never talk about. It's not infection or infertility, it's how it affects women emotionally. When women go to have abortions, the counselors inform them of all the physical risks, and they tell them that they may feel sad for a short time afterwards, but not to worry, it's just hormones. But they never, ever tell them that they have a very good chance of suffering severe mental and emotional distress for months, years, and even decades afterwards. Some women never heal. I have seen it in several women I know, in fact, ALL the women I know who have had abortions, are stricken with this.

I will probably offend some people here, but I feel too strongly about this not to say it. Organizations like Planned Parenthood SAY they care so much about women, I say bullshit. If they cared so much about women they wouldn't deny this epidemic of guilt, anger, regret, depression and mental grief that so many women are left with after abortions. They would at least be honest with women and let them know the risks- ALL of them.

I am not trying to sound like I don't care about the aborted fetuses, I do. I just wanted to bring the women up b/c no one ever does.

[Dogstar]

I'm staying away from this one. Too much of a hot potato for me, and I'm not sure this is the place for my view on this.
I agree with you, Allison, about the different organizations offering abortions. I think they minimize the emotional impact of such a decision. I, too, know women who have suffered severely because of it. I also know women who do not regret their decisions to abort. So, it goes both ways, but I agree, more should be done to make women aware of what this can mean for them emotionally in the long term.

[souldancer]

I am right in there with Allison and Dogstar - staying away from this hot topic and acknowledging that we need to value ALL lives.

[TeriB19]

I also prefer to keep my opinions to myself about this issue.

[Altair]

Indeed, a tough situation. Instinctively, we all value life and realize that, at the moment of conception, a potential life is at hand. Abortion, IMO, is simply a loss, or something that never came to fruition. Perhaps, the life, the spirit that was oborted simply goes on and manifests itself in another body in this grand illusion.

[Lady Valkyrie]

Everyone is indeed entitled to post their opinions or not post their opinions. However, Why do you people think that this subject is too hot? Isn't those little souls worth talking about?

Personally, I feel that abortion is indeed morally wrong. People scream Pro-Choice because it's the woman's body. However there is another life that cannot speak for itself yet. What about that life's choice. They don't get to choose. A woman chooses for them whether they like it or not. What right does anyone have to kill another human being. This concept can go even further into the Capital Punishment issue.

I feel from the moment that the female's egg is fertilized that egg has been made into a lifeform. A lifeform that needs nourishment and to be able to continue living and growing. However, that Life is snuffed out by the roaring suction of a hose, or by the sting of a saline solution.

I don't thing abortion should be an option no more than should setting murderers free without punishment is an option. We place men and women to jail if they kill certain animals that the law states they are not supposed to... yet we give a woman the option of killing her unborn child.

Everything in this world that is really evil is considered good by society... and what is really good is considered evil. *sighs* It's truely scarey.

[Dogstar]

Well, it's an issue that arouses such passion on both sides, and such a discussion can get out of hand, with hurtful things being said. For me, there's no real point in debating it if you believe one thing and I believe another. Neither one of us is going to be swayed to the other side. It justs gives you more ammunition to judge others, and I think that is wrong. I'm not trying to offend you or flame you; I just get the impression that you have little tolerance for others' beliefs.

[Lady Valkyrie]

on the contrary my dear. LOL You'd be surprised at the type of friends I have had in recent past. My best friend is a Wiccan... I even lived with her for a short period of time with my three kids after I had left my abusive husband. I had a very close friend that is Jewish. I am very tolerant of others beliefs. However, I do not back down in what I believe.

I'm curious as to the purpose of even having this particular forum when you think we can not discuss and debate.

And by the way my Wiccan friend... she had an abortion 20 years ago and she said that if she ever got pregnant again she'd have another one. Yet she is my best friend... I truely love her as a sister.

You don't know me personally... so you are making assumptions based on what exactly? And are your assumption of me justified? No I don't think so... IMHO... as so many on this board is so fond of saying.

[TeriB19]

Yes, this is one subject that will only be "argued" until someone posts something really hurtful. I have a lot of friends on this board, and I like many others, and I want to keep it that way. I choose not to post my opinions on this matter.

[Lady Valkyrie]

I choose to stand for what I believe in. I was never considered someone who is pilitically correct. If there is someone on this board who has had or is considering an abortion... well... I'd have to stand by my conviction... they wouldn't change just because someone comes on here that has done it or will do it. Too many times I feel some people cave in too easily all in the name of political correctness... because they might "offend" someone. *shrugs* maybe this is the wrong crowd... other boards I have went to they are eager to discuss such issues. I'm starting to see that the 28 or something members that are here now are not big time discussionists or debator... they feel debate=fight... but that's not always so.

[Dogstar]

No, Lady V, I don't know you personally; I can only go by what you post here. I'm happy that you are confident in your beliefs and have no problem expressing them. I am equally confident in mine and have no intention of backing down from them, either. I guess something is lost in the written word sometimes and maybe I'm getting the wrong impression of you, but I detect a tone I'd rather stay away from, that's all. It's nothing against you personally, believe me. We are simply not on the same page.

[Dogstar]

Originally posted by Lady Valkyrie
I'm starting to see that the 28 or something members that are here now are not big time discussionists or debator... they feel debate=fight... but that's not always so.

There are plenty of debates that go on here without people getting pushy. It's pointless to discuss/debate with someone who won't acknowledge the validity of others' beliefs or opinions.

[TeriB19]

<b>If there is someone on this board who has had or is considering an abortion... well... I'd have to stand by my conviction... they wouldn't change just because someone comes on here that has done it or will do it. Too many times I feel some people cave in too easily all in the name of political correctness... because they might "offend" someone. *shrugs* maybe this is the wrong crowd... </b> No this is not the wrong crowd, it is a crowd who knows that there is no one right answer to this question that will make everyone happy. The only way to post to this thread, IMO, is to say let's agree to disagree. No one will "back down" on this issue to be PC. Give us a little more credit. We're not debating the issue of who is better, OLP or U2, we're talking about an issue that is a little more serious and some of us would rather not get into a debate where everyone thinks "I'm right" "You're wrong". If that's the case, this thread will be the end of this bb.

[luvscott4ever]

Here, Here Teri!!!!

[Altair]

Originally posted by Lady Valkyrie
I am very tolerant of others beliefs. However, I do not back down in what I believe. ... IMHO... as so many on this board is so fond of saying.

Tolerant, but open?

IMHO, ;) , we grow when we allow ourselves space to do so. I once took a course in college titled "Critical Thinking." It changed my life. I learned to let my guard down, I learned to open my mind to other perspectives, I learned that I wasn't all-knowing or that my set-in-stone viewpoints were really not so set-in-stone. Humility is strong and can carry us a long way.

Try me, Lady. I'll debate. I'll listen. I'll look from your point of view and consider the possibilities because I believe you have something to offer and it's called another perspective. Will you do the same? Or, will you stand firm without consideration?

[Lady Valkyrie]

If I wasn't willing to listen to anyones opinion I wouldn't have posted this thread to begin with. Didn't I start this thread with the questions of "What do you think?" and "how do you feel>". If I wasn't willing to listen to anyone elses opinion I would have started the post with my opinion... not with the questions of what the rest of you think. Thank you Altair, I am sincere when I say this.

[Siana]

Originally posted by Dogstar
I'm staying away from this one. Too much of a hot potato for me, and I'm not sure this is the place for my view on this.
I agree with you, Allison, about the different organizations offering abortions. I think they minimize the emotional impact of such a decision. I, too, know women who have suffered severely because of it. I also know women who do not regret their decisions to abort. So, it goes both ways, but I agree, more should be done to make women aware of what this can mean for them emotionally in the long term.

I'll stay away from this 1 too.But I'll just say I don't think abortion is morally wrong in all the cases....would it be better if a woman don't want a child but she has to give birth just because the society don't approve abortion??What's the meaning to have a kid if you don't love & want it?

[allison]

I WAS just going to make the post about the emotional risks that abortion providers neglect to tell women about and leave it at that, but I guess I'll go ahead and give my opinion about the morality of abortion itself. I agree this is such a dangerous topic for people who want to remain friends. It's just so emotional, and it is rare that people change their minds about it. But what good is a mind if you're not willing to change it, right?

My heart tells me that abortion is wrong. I think I feel this way b/c 1) I have seen alot of women suffer incredible grief from their abortions, and if there was nothing wrong with it, why would they suffer with so much guilt, regret, anger, and sadness?, and 2) I can't help thinking that ending a life is wrong. Even if the life is only 6 weeks old, which I think is the earliest one can get an abortion - even if it's a second old, isn't it still a life (a living thing)?

So that's the way I feel. But I do want to say that I do not judge women who have had abortions. My best friend has had more than one, and I do not condemn her in any way, I love her very much. More than anything I hurt for her so much, seeing what she has gone through the past 10 years, and continues to go through. As a matter of fact, I do not think we should judge each other anyway. I don't think it's our place to do so. Judge actions, but not people.

[Siana]

but by judging ppl's actions you judge the very ppl in fact........:confused:

[allison]

I disagree. I think there is a big difference between saying "what you did was bad" and "you are a bad person".

[Lady Valkyrie]

I totally agree with you allison. One can look at another's actions, develope an opinion of that person's actions, whether those opinions are negative or positive doesn't matter... you can still love the person as a human being. The God I serve doesn't like when I sin... however, I know he loves me... even though I have sinned. John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life. My best friend is a Wiccan, I don't like the that particular religion, and I was once a Wiccan myself, however, I still love this woman as deeply as a sister. She also had an abortion 20 years ago, I do think abortion is murder, however, I still love this woman as deep as a sister. She knows my opinions of both Wicca and abortion, but we got beyond those issues and love one another as human beings, not holding what we with are sins or faults against one another. It can be done... you have to expand your mind... as a certain person is used to saying on here... look into the person's heart and soul... I see people as God sees me... and I know God loves me.

[Lady Valkyrie]

Here is the perfect example...

I am a mother of 3 children. I love them so much. I would die for them. I recently went through a custody battle and this past summer has showed me just how much my children mean to me. As I type this I am tearing up.

Now my children are not perfect. They make a lot of mistakes. Even though they know what is proper behavior and how they should act or react to situations, they make the wrong choices sometimes and do the wrong thing or react in an improper fashion. I form an opinion of their actions, if I feel that they have done wrong I will make a judgement. Because I have made a judgement on their actions does this mean I have stopped loving them? No of course not!

My ex mother in law has a son who recently got in trouble for a B/E and has had to go to court over it and he may have to spend some jail time. He has left his wife and child, he is a drug addict, and he's sleeping around with other women. Her son, my ex-husband, has always been a drug addict, lazy, slothful, never kept a job, left me and our children on our daughter's birthday for my best friend, never pays child support, and is a horrible father. My exmother in law has never and will never approve of her sons' actions. She has told them that she will never condone their actions. However she still loves them with all her heart and soul, and they know this.

So yes it is possible to dislike the actions of a person and still love them

[Aimee]

I saw the title of this thread and I thought, "Uh-oh, I'm not touching that." then I saw that there are two pages already. Nice to know that many others had the same reaction I did. For the same reasons even. However, I'm not able to keep my mouth shut now that I'm here so...
When I was a teenager, I did lots of research about abortions just to ease my own curiosity. I recieved info from Planned Parenthood and some church groups. I saw photos of aborted fetuses in the third trimester. A baby in a bucket. Now I know that htose are illegal, but the scare tactic worked! I am the only one of my girlfriends who has never had an abortion. My mother had a child when she was 16 so she stressed to her kids the importance of safe sex. As I became sexually active, HIV and AIDS were big news. So I used condoms for that reason. I took birth control pills to avoid getting pregnant.
My opinion is that if you're having sex, you know the consequenses (in America anyway)! Don't be stupid or you'll end up with a much bigger problem than a baby! It's easy to say that I would never have an abortion because I knew that sex could lead to a baby. But what about this...
What if, now that I'm married, I get pg and am told at the first ultrasound that my baby is abnormal. Two heads, or a funky heart. I can have an abortion or take the chance that my baby will either die or be retarted. What do you do?

[TeriB19]

The thing that always got me was this: The Catholic church always says, if you are pregnant, it is wrong to abort the baby. But how can a 15 or 16 year old child themselves bring a child into the world and raise it? The Catholic church won't pay to feed it, clothe it, diaper it, doctor it, they will be there for spiritual guidance, but that will only go so far. Sure, adoption is an option, but at 15, why put their body through 10 months of pregnancy and interrupt their lives just to give a baby up. Everyone makes mistakes, but the individual is the one who has to live with the consequences.

[Aimee]

You have to live with the consequences of getting pregnant anyway, whether you abort, keep or adopt out the baby. At least with the last option, you are giving your child a chance.

[TeriB19]

But my point is this, when I was in school I was always taught that if you had an abortion, you would be automatically excommunicated from the church. This is the church that will not be responsible for bringing up the baby (other than spiritually). I believe it is the individual's decision, and yes, they will have to live with the consequences one way or the other. I am looking at it from the angle that the church tell us "you can't do this" but will not be there if "you do". It's never black and white. There are always shades of grey.

[Aimee]

True True, Oh TerI with one big eye in her infinite wisdom ;)

[TeriB19]

I never really wanted to debate the whole right or wrong issue on abortion. But when it comes to the Catholic church and what it dictates to people, my Irish really gets up.:P

[Aimee]

I knew it! You could only be an Irish lass with that spunkiness! And don't even let my Scottishness get started on Catholocism! Lots of ! for such a late hour, huh?

edited to add one more !

[TeriB19]

LOL!! You make me laugh Aimee! Aye, Lassie, it is a wee bit late fer all yer !!!. But bein' on me second glass o'tha cabernet, I'm not knowin' the difference.:)

[Dogstar]

LMAO....My Irish has been up about Catholicism for decades! I know what you mean.

[TeriB19]

I find it gets up easier and easier these days. I think I'm going the wrong way. The older I get, the less patient I become.

[Lady Valkyrie]

Originally posted by TeriB19
<b>But my point is this, when I was in school I was always taught that if you had an abortion, you would be automatically &nbsp;excommunicated from the church. This is the church that will not be responsible for bringing up the baby (other than spiritually). I believe it is the individual's decision, and yes, they will have to live with the consequences one way or the other. I am looking at it from the angle that the church tell us "you can't do this" but will not be there if "you do". It's never black and white. There are always shades of grey. </b>

This is exactly why I refuse to become an official member of any Christian denomination. I will attend many different churches of many different denominations. I will take the "meat" of the messages weigh them against what I study in the Bible and whatever doesn't agree with the Holy Bible I throw out. But I refuse to get caught up in this whole man made denomination, made up of rules and regulations that aren't even biblical.

A mere man may be able to excommunicate a person from a man made institution called a church... but they cannot excommunicate a person from the arms of God himself. In the realm of Christianity...You don't need a church, pastor, minister, or Reverand to reach God. My Holy Bible states that anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be heard. My Bible says that anyone who recieves Jesus into their hearts is saved. My Holy Bible states that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the Life, and that no one can come to the Father God except through Him(Jesus).

No church institutution can keep you away from God! God isn't in those four walls of that Catholic Church... nor the Baptist church... nor the Methodist church. When you ask Christ into your heart... HE IS WITHIN YOU!

Now please remember I am speaking in the realm of Christianity. I speak for no other religion here.

[Lady Valkyrie]

By the way... I've mentioned this somewhere on this board... but I was 16 when I had my first child. Abortion never crossed my mind. Having that child may have very well saved my life. I was heading down a path that I probably would have died on. That child made me grow up real quick. I never regret having him at that age...I DO NOT RECOMMEND ANYONE TO HAVE A CHILD THAT AGE MIND YOU... but I just feel that God took my stupid actions of getting pregnant too young and turned it around and it helped me to grow up and fly straight.

Also I was raped at the age of 15... I knew the chances of me being pregnant. I never once thought about abortion. I had it made up in my mind that I would give the baby up for adoption. At least that way that child would have a chance at life.

[luvscott4ever]

ah, it finally gets around to that!!! I'm sorry, but NOO WAY am I gonna carry a child I HAD NO CONCENT IN MAKING!!!! A rape/incest child!!!! I just couldn't do it!!! I was gonna say something about this earlier on the board but thought better about it, but now that I see it, it enrages me, maybe cuz I've had a little to drink, but still, I couldn't imagine carrying around for months, a child I was FORCED/BEAT !!! into creating...maybe I shouldn't post this, but I just had to...I have a daughter too, one that was conceived in love ( so I thought) and SHE WAS/IS the best thing that every happened to me, and I can't imagine my life without her and I believe every life is sacred too, but I just don't think I could bear a child I had no control in making...I'm sorry if I've offended anyone, but that's just the way I feel...

[luvscott4ever]

Just in case I have offended, that was the last post for me on this thread, I would rather stick to the others anyway, they are happier and funnier and make me laugh and in my life, I'd rather laugh and be happy then talk about lives (mother and child) being destroyed...See ya on the lighter side of life.....:)

[souldancer]

Loud and clear Luvr - I HEAR YOU...where are you going? May I humbly follow with light, love and peace! :)

[luvscott4ever]

Originally posted by souldancer
Loud and clear Luvr - I HEAR YOU...where are you going? &nbsp;May I humbly follow with light, love and peace! :)

Going anywhere but this post!!! I wasn't even going to read my replies, but I saw it was you, and thought I would see, was a little afraid of the outcome of what I said...I'm definately NOT a leader, but you can follow with light, love and peace...it's the ONLY WAY TO GO!!!! :)

[Dogstar]

Amen, Souldancer and Luvscott. Peace, love, joy and happiness!

[TeriB19]

Originally posted by luvscott4ever
I'm sorry, but NOO WAY am I gonna carry a child I HAD NO CONCENT IN MAKING!!!! &nbsp;A rape/incest child!!!! I just couldn't do it!!! &nbsp;I just don't think I could bear a child I had no control in making...I'm sorry if I've offended anyone, but that's just the way I feel... No offense taken and I totally agree. I just couldn't imagine it. The child would be a symbol of violence, rage and anger to me.

[Dogstar]

Ditto.

[luvscott4ever]

whew, you were the 3 three (Terib, Dogstar, Souldancer) I worried about (for obvious reasons) and comtemplated stating my opinion on this thread, but now that it sounds like you don't want to hang me :argue: I can move on out of here!!! thanks for understanding...like Dogstar said, "Peace, love, joy and happiness!" :peace:

[Dogstar]

Ya never have to worry about me, luvscott:)

[Unforgiven Fan]

MY Opinon on this topic:
arbortion should be only used when the mother's health is at a sevear risk, the unborn in certain it is not going to make, or rape victims. No abortion should be done just becuase the mother does not want the kid...

[luvscott4ever]

Originally posted by Dogstar
Ya never have to worry about me, luvscott:)

Cool, I didn't think so, you're pretty open minded!!! I think that's why we (you, me, teri, and Souldancer) get along soo well!!!

[Dogstar]

Def!

[TeriB19]

Damn straight. The 4 Musketeers.;)

[Dogstar]

All for one and one for all!:bounce:

[souldancer]

Originally posted by luvscott4ever
<b>whew, you were the 3 three (Terib, Dogstar, Souldancer) I worried about (for obvious reasons) and comtemplated stating my opinion on this thread, but now that it sounds like you don't want to hang me &nbsp;:argue: &nbsp;I can move on out of here!!! thanks for understanding...like Dogstar said, "Peace, love, joy and happiness!" &nbsp; :peace: </b>
Luvscott...4th Muskateer just rode in and is confirming there is an open mind and heart always here for my friends like you - and others that are humble and authentic to their true nature! :)

[Dogstar]

YES!!

[souldancer]

Originally posted by Unforgiven Fan
MY Opinon on this topic:
arbortion should be only used when the mother's health is at a sevear risk, the unborn in certain it is not going to make, or rape victims. No abortion should be done just becuase the mother does not want the kid... Thank you UF, glad to hear from a male, appreciate your comments. Would also like to suggest that "the father" be included in that last line, as sometimes (maybe rare) it is a joint decision.

[TeriB19]

That is very true. Most often, the father is never mentioned.

[Lady Valkyrie]

I often hear people say that they could never carry a child from a rape/incest situation for that child would be a symbol of the violence that was perpetrated upon them. That child is just that, a child not a symbol. Punish the child for what the father has done?! IMHO I don't think you should punish an innocent child to death for what it's sperm donor(a rapist/molestor doesn't deserve the title of father) has done to you. With that mentality we should kill the mother and father of the rapist/molestor for even bringing such a monster into this world. Sounds drastic? So does killing an innocent child for what it's sperm donor has done. I feel that you should give that innocent child a chance at life instead of condemming it to death for the sins of it's sperm donar... give it up for adoption.

[Dogstar]

IMHO, the real punishment for that child would be a lifetime sentence of knowing that she was conceived in such a violent, inhumane and hideous manner, that she was not conceived in love. If the child is adopted, at some point he or she might want to know about his or her birth parents. That would be a hideous realization for anyone. The psychological damage from that would be endless.

[TeriB19]

Excellent point. I know I have an endless curiosity about things. And if I were adopted, I would always wonder and would probably want to act on my curiosity just to know the truth. How horrible it would be, not only to find out the horrible truth about my conception, but to bring up all that pain for the birth mother again.

[Lady Valkyrie]

So let's kill the child to keep it from knowing the truth? Isn't that harsh? IMHO, It sounds to me that you are taking something that may not even happen (knowing the facts of their conception), as an excuse to fullfill the selfish desire to be rid of an innocent child. No excuse is worthy of killing an innocent child. That child, once it becomes an adult, may or may not want to know who it's biological parents are. And even if they do want to know, and even if they found out who their mother was who is to say that they'd even find out who the father was or if the mother would even want to tell how that child was concieved. Inevitabbly it is the mother who has control over whether that child finds out how it was concieved. The humane thing to do, IMHO, is to give that innocent child the chance at life, and if by chance when it grows up and wants to know the biological parents, do not tell them that that they were a product of rape/incest. Why would a mother blurt that out to their child anyway? That is what is inhumane. I'm not sure of all the legalities of adoption but I really don't think that a mother even has to tell the adoption agency who the father is. She doesn't have to tell that at all. But to kill a child just so they don't find out that they are a product of rape/incest just seems like a selfish excuse. one can never be sure if the child will even want to know their biological parents. And even if they did the adoption agency may never know who the father was. And the mother isn't forced to allow that information to fall into the hands of anyone let alone the child.

I'm going to research the legalities of the adoption aspect more. I may have more info later.

[allison]

Originally posted by Lady Valkyrie
I often hear people say that they could never carry a child from a rape/incest situation for that child would be a symbol of the violence that was perpetrated upon them. That child is just that, a child not a symbol. Punish the child for what the father has done?! IMHO I don't think you should punish an innocent child to death for what it's sperm donor(a rapist/molestor doesn't deserve the title of father) has done to you. With that mentality we should kill the mother and father of the rapist/molestor for even bringing such a monster into this world. Sounds drastic? So does killing an innocent child for what it's sperm donor has done. I feel that you should give that innocent child a chance at life instead of condemming it to death for the sins of it's sperm donar... give it up for adoption.

I agree completely. It can't be right to punish the child for what the father did. The child is innocent.

[Dogstar]

All I'm saying is that it is another factor for the mother to consider in a case of rape. You are right, I'm sure the mother isn't legally bound to tell the child anything. I'm just saying it's a possibilty, if you read the post carefully. Not all adopted children have that curiosity, but some might, and I think it would be a horrible discovery, if made. And maybe it is a selfish excuse but it's a realistic consideration, IMHO. What bothers me about some people, and I emphasize some, who oppose abortion is that they never seem to want to consider the ramifications of unwanted pregnancy on the mother, the family, the child or society.

[TeriB19]

I am pro-choice, and I am outta here. Pretty soon I may just leave this entire Religous forum. Debate, in and of itself, is enjoyable.... to a point. I've reached that point, I've realized this is not a subject I want to go back and forth on because no one's mind will be changed here. Thanks and peace.

[Lady Valkyrie]

Originally posted by Dogstar
What bothers me about some people, and I emphasize some, who oppose abortion is that they never seem to want to consider the ramifications of unwanted pregnancy &nbsp;on the mother, the family, the child or society.

What ramification justifies killing that innocent child?

[luvscott4ever]

Originally posted by TeriB19
I am pro-choice, and I am outta here. Pretty soon I may just leave this entire Religous forum. Debate, in and of itself, is enjoyable.... to a point. I've reached that point, I've realized this is not a subject I want to go back and forth on because no one's mind will be changed here. Thanks and peace.

Righ back at ya, babe...You are sooo right!!! This is way too hot a topic, my daughter couldn't believe there is such a board on this, a CREED chat, do we have to get into such heated topics??
I thought this was suppost to be FUN, this post isn't any fun!!! :(

[TeriB19]

What do you say you and me go to another thread and get some wine?

[luvscott4ever]

Originally posted by TeriB19
What do you say you and me go to another thread and get some wine?

works for me, you can drink the wine (not much for wine) and I'll have me a Diablo!!!! And drink to happy times and more cheerful chats!!! :P

[Lady Valkyrie]

Excuse me but if you don't want to read or participate in a serious thread then don't walk into ones that have blatantly obvious thread titles such as "ABORTION" that give the impression of seriousness. Duh! The title itself is explaination enough!!! Geez! Are you guys not used to actually having real serious discussions in a forum titled FAITH/RELIGION? What did you guys used to talk about in a FAITH/RELIGION forum? Maybe there were threads like uh lets say like "Scott's so HEAVENLY!" ARRRRRRRRRRRGH! :banghead:

[Dogstar]

<-----is banging her head against the wall....
FYI, I'll speak for myself here, I'm used to serious, insightful debates with people who actually want to debate and not proselytize. There are many more sides to an issue than two.

[luvscott4ever]

Originally posted by Lady Valkyrie
<b>Excuse me but if you don't want to read or participate in a serious thread then don't walk into ones that have blatantly obvious thread titles &nbsp;such as "ABORTION" that give the impression of seriousness. Duh! The title itself is explaination enough!!! Geez! Are you guys not used to actually having real serious discussions in a forum titled FAITH/RELIGION? What did you guys used to talk about in a FAITH/RELIGION forum? Maybe there were threads like uh lets say like "Scott's so HEAVENLY!" ARRRRRRRRRRRGH! :banghead: </b>

but, DUH!!! he is heavenly!!! or can't people see that by just looking at him!!! :confused:
It would be fine to discuss, but some people only want to hear and see their side of the issue!!! It's all politics, and IMHFO, politics SUCK!!!!!! :headbang:

[Dogstar]

LMFAO!!:D

[souldancer]

Originally posted by Lady Valkyrie
<b> Are you guys not used to actually having real serious discussions in a forum titled FAITH/RELIGION? &nbsp;Maybe there were threads like uh lets say like "Scott's so HEAVENLY!" ARRRRRRRRRRRGH! :banghead: </b>

There is a difference between a discussion/debate and, as dogstar pointed out, proselytizing. Debates are fine for subjects based on facts where evidence and examples can be supplied to support statements, but with a topic of "beliefs" - there is no doubt to be varying, subjective comments and opinions of people's truths. How can you doubt another person's belief? You may disagree with it, you may ask how it was developed or what is the foundation for it, but in no freakin way can you deny it is the individual's belief! And, I certainly wouldn't expect a practicing Christian to invalidate or judge another's belief (LOL).

A belief - A creed. Hail to the heavenly group that unites us in heart and mind. Rock on Heavenly Creed!

The earth is a voice speaking to you.
Take all this pride and leave it behind
Because one day we die.
Believe what you will That is your right....

[TeriB19]

Here Here Souldancer, All Hail CREED!! Isn't that why we are here anyway?

And, yes, we DID have serious discussions on the Religion forum, not just "oh, Scott is God". It's just that most of us here respected each others' opinions without needing to challenge those opinions from the pulpit. Opinions ARE like assholes (as I believe either Allison or Aimee pointed out {sorry, too early, can't remember who}) everyone has one. Everyone has one, and you can't deny that everyone has one, you just have to respect the fact that everyone has one and move on. Most people don't talk/ preach out of theirs, but I guess there are exceptions.

[Dogstar]

Well said, Souldancer and TeriB (as usual;) )

[luvscott4ever]

This is why I love you guys!!! (Dogstar, Teri and Souldancer) You don't judge, you listen!!! And by all means: Hail Creed!!!
:angel:

[Dogstar]

Amen to that...Hail Creed!

[TeriB19]

All Hail Creed...from a different forum. I'm finished here. C'mon guys, I'm buying.;)

[Dogstar]

I'm there, TeriB. Gotta stay outta here...Gets me into trouble.

[luvscott4ever]

Originally posted by TeriB19
All Hail Creed...from a different forum. I'm finished here. C'mon guys, I'm buying.;)

And I'll buy the next round!!! :drunk:

[luvscott4ever]

Originally posted by Dogstar
I'm there, TeriB. Gotta stay outta here...Gets me into trouble.

I'm right behind you!!! Not in too much trouble yet ( I don't think) But I will be...My blood starts to boil and I get a little pissy with the "Holier than thou" people!!! See on the FUN side!!!

[Lady Valkyrie]

Now who's being judgemental? LMBO!! Are you making a judgement upon me as to whether or not I am "Holier Than Thou"? LMBO!! You are so funny!!!Thanks for the laugh... I needed that! :)

[Siana]

Originally posted by Dogstar
Amen to that...Hail Creed!

:angel: :P

[LadySilk]

First off I have to say that I didn't read all the replies to this yet.

Abortion should not be illegal-period!

I don't think abortion is "right", but I do believe that in life we all have to make hard choices. No one having an abortion would consider that the easy way out, but I'd rather have a safe, healthy option available than people getting killed or maimed by hack back-alley surgeons. I personally could never do it, but what gives me the right to judge others.

A fetus is not a human being and not viable as a life on its own, therefore the issue should be about what is best for those already alive and having a life to live. No one should be forced into a situation they cannot deal with. How many abused children might not have had to live through that hell? What about health issues for the mother?

As for adoption, when there are so many children out there right now without homes or love because everyone wants a "baby" of the same race why should we add to this dilemna. What is truly cruel? What about babies born addicted to crack or heroin or alcohol? What about rape or incest? There are so many children born that really never a decent chance and are headed straight for jail or worse from the moment conceived.

Until you have walked a mile in their shoes-don't presume to tell others what is right and wrong.

[TeriB19]

Very well said. I agree wholeheartedly. I have been lucky enough to never have to make that decision myself, but I don't judge those that have because I am not in their situation.

[Lady Valkyrie]

A fetus is not a human??!! WHAT IS IT THEN A FREAKIN FROG??!! I am so very tempted to post some pictures of 2 and 3 week old fetuses to show you that that fetus is indeed a human... a weak human... a human that needs it's mother to survive... but a human none the less!

[Lady Valkyrie]

*in the most scientific nerdy voice possible*
:nerd:

For fertilization to be accomplished, a mature human male sperm and a mature human female egg are needed. Before fertilization, each has only 23 chromosomes. They each possess "human life," since they are parts of a living human being; but they are not each whole living human beings themselves. They each have only 23 chromosomes, not 46 chromosomes—the number of chromosomes necessary and characteristic for a single individual member of the human species. Furthermore, a sperm can produce only "sperm" proteins and enzymes; an egg can produce only "egg" proteins and enzymes; neither alone is or can produce a human being with 46 chromosomes.

The fusion of the sperm (with 23 chromosomes) and the egg (with 23 chromosomes) at fertilization results in a live human being, a single-cell human zygote, with 46 chromosomes—the number of chromosomes characteristic of an individual member of the human species. Zygote: A zygote is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo).

This new single-cell human being immediately produces specifically human proteins and enzymes (not carrot or frog enzymes and proteins), and genetically directs his/her own growth and development. (In fact, this genetic growth and development has been proven not to be directed by the mother.) Finally, this new human being—the single-cell human embryo—is biologically an individual, a living organism—an individual member of the human species.

The human embryonic organism formed at fertilization is a whole human being, and therefore it is not just a "blob" or a "bunch of cells." This new human individual also has a mixture of both the mother’s and the father’s chromosomes, and therefore it is not just a "piece of the mother’s tissues".

Some people may say that the embyro is only a "potential human". Scientifically there is absolutely no question whatsoever that the immediate product of fertilization is a newly existing human being. A human embryo is a human being. It is not a "potential" or a "possible" human being. It’s an actual human being—with the potential to grow bigger and develop its capacities.

Some may say that the embryo is neither a boy nor a girl at conception. The immediate product of fertilization is genetically already a girl or a boy—determined by the kind of sperm that fertilizes the egg at the time of fertilization.

That concludes todays lesson in sex/health education today.
:nerd:

[souldancer]

Lady V, your views I find so black and white. Have you ever considered the color 'gray'? And, tell us then, when does Life begin? When does Life end? Death begin?

[LadySilk]

I'm sorry but that sounds like the organized religion party line and propaganda much as those pictures of fetuses. Unfortunately a fetus is not a viable SEPARATE sentient entity. It is alive in the same sense that a kidney or liver or even the flu virus is alive. It is a part of a woman until it is in the third trimester and able to be born as an individual. It is only legal to have abortions in the first trimester except in cases of health of the mother, which should take precedence. Developmentally, the fetus is not even recognizable as a human in many cases at the point it happens. Like I said though, I could never do it myself. I've known others who have went through a great deal of emotional pain because of it and I would never recommend it unless it were the best thing for all involved. However, I would never condemn someone for doing what they thought was best.

Life is not cut and dry, black and white. Things are never that simple. We all do the best we can with what we've got to work with. Christianity should be about love, understanding, forgiveness, acceptance and not about judging and condemning others.

[Siana]

oh....you guys,I have top admit,have some interesting thoughts........:) I mean i respect every single opinion here..

[Lady Valkyrie]

Ok people I want to say that this debate has indeed... as some predicted... turned very ugly. Someone... I don't know who because they were deleted... sent me a PM and said some very nasty horrible things to me. The said in regards to abortion... How else would I feed my family... didn't Jesus dine on fetus at the last supper? And then someone... maybe this same person, went to my guestbook in my diary and put 2 pages worth of private messages calling me fat, ugly and a really nasty degrading word which I won't mention here. I just want to let this person know, if the person of the PM and my guestbook are one in the same, if they are reading this... that I have your IP # I will be reporting you... that's the advantage of owing a guestbook... you can know people's IP's even though they remain nameless. Whoever you are... I will be praying for you. From this moment on if you absolutely disagree with me that is fine... but don't make it a personal thing. I will not be participating in this thread any longer. My opinion stands strong on this subject.

[Siana]

that's good

[allison]

Originally posted by Lady Valkyrie
Ok people I want to say that this debate has indeed... as some predicted... turned very ugly. Someone... I don't know who because they were deleted... sent me a PM and said some very nasty horrible things to me. The said in regards to abortion... How else would I feed my family... didn't Jesus dine on fetus at the last supper? And then someone... maybe this same person, went to my guestbook in my diary and put 2 pages worth of private messages calling me fat, ugly and a really nasty degrading word which I won't mention here. I just want to let this person know, if the person of the PM and my guestbook are one in the same, if they are reading this... that I have your IP # I will be reporting you... that's the advantage of owing a guestbook... you can know people's IP's even though they remain nameless. Whoever you are... I will be praying for you. From this moment on if you absolutely disagree with me that is fine... but don't make it a personal thing. I will not be participating in this thread any longer. My opinion stands strong on this subject.

Lady V, I got a nasty pm too, probably from the same person as you. The subject said "Re: Cussing", and it was a deleted user. They called me a cunt, and I forget what else they said. They sent it a few minutes after midnight (ET) on Sun. Shoot, I wish I had a guestbook so I could figure out who it was and nail them. I doubt it was any of the regular posters though.

[Dogstar]

Geez, you guys, that is just awful! What a hideous thing for someone to do.

[allison]

Originally posted by LadySilk
Unfortunately a fetus is not a viable SEPARATE sentient entity. &nbsp;


And neither is a newborn baby without someone to feed it, etc., so that's not a fitting arguement for why it's ok to kill it. And it is sentient. Science has proven that the nerve centers are developed enough within the 1st trimester to respond to stimuli, and thus, feel.

I'm not making any kind of judgement here as to the morality of abortion (I did that in a previous post). I am just gently pointing out where your argument has logistical flaws, in my opinion.

[souldancer]

Originally posted by LadySilk
Life is not cut and dry, black and white. &nbsp;Things are never that simple. &nbsp;We all do the best we can with what we've got to work with. &nbsp;Christianity should be about love, understanding, forgiveness, acceptance and not about judging and condemning others. I sing to that!

[LadySilk]

While we may not share the same opinions, I think that is okay. Everyone is entitled to believe what they will. I do want to say that I am very sorry for the two ladies who received hateful messages and say I abhor that behavior. Adults should be able to debate issues and agree to disagree without that kind of hatemongering. It is really a shame.

T

[TeriB19]

I need to chime in here and get something off my chest that's been eating away at me for a few days. This is in regards to the anonymous PM's that were sent to Allison and Lady V. If the coward who sent them those nasty things is a regular on this bulletin board, you should be ashamed. We all have our differences of opinion, but to take your opinions as far as to start calling people disgusting names and not have the balls to own up to is is despicable. I sincerely hope it was someone who logged on for the first time and read the threads and hasn't been back after the PM's. If it's someone regular on the bb, I will be really saddened. Sorry Allison and Lady V. You should not have had to deal with that crap.

[Dogstar]

Well said. I sure as heck hope it's not a regular. That would really be sad.

[allison]

Originally posted by TeriB19
I need to chime in here and get something off my chest that's been eating away at me for a few days. This is in regards to the anonymous PM's that were sent to Allison and Lady V. If the coward who sent them those nasty things is a regular on this bulletin board, you should be ashamed. We all have our differences of opinion, but to take your opinions as far as to start calling people disgusting names and not have the balls to own up to is is despicable. I sincerely hope it was someone who logged on for the first time and read the threads and hasn't been back after the PM's. If it's someone regular on the bb, I will be really saddened. Sorry Allison and Lady V. You should not have had to deal with that crap.

Thanks, Teri. I think Lady V got it alot worse than I did-I only got one short PM, so I feel worse for her. The crime is being investigated, though, so we may find out who it was, if it was a regular (although I am doubting it). I've got broad shoulders though and have no ill feelings towards my favorite place online. ;)

[TeriB19]

You are a trooper allison!