Do you believe in election and double election?

[american_bad_a$]

Election refers to God choosing people to believe in him and them to go to heaven.
Double election refers to God choosing people not to believe in him and for them to go to hell.

Do you believe this?

[creedsister]

yes i do God Already knows whos going to go heaven And whos Going to hell I understand were your coming from it something to think about God At these Hours is pouring out his spirt and Trying So Hard to reach his chosen few`And there has been some hes shut the doors for playing around with him But Know this GOD IS LOVE AND MERCY Till The Very End}} At this time HES AT THE DOOR~~

[Sincirr]

Well werent we given the right to make choices? so if God has already made that choice for us, well there seems to be a problem here. Whats the point of chosing Christ if we never could? Whats the point of Him dying on the cross?

In Revelation it says that He even gave that Jezebel a chance to repent! Know what I'm sayin?

[creedsister]

haha that is the whole point CALAVARY} Sincirr And yes we do make our own choices But In the Long Run if we have not made the right one He will make it for us B/c Of the sacrafice Hes Got Those Keys come on come on~~ ;) Choose this day who you will serve~~Dont say i did,not tell you so`~ :cool:

[Sincirr]

Yeh thanks for that, but to say that they didnt have that choice to "chose whom U will serve" is the issue I had. U know what I mean?

[creedsister]

Yeh thanks for that, but to say that they didnt have that choice to "chose whom U will serve" is the issue I had. U know what I mean? Some wont escape The wrath of God my friend~~But He died So all would not perish but have life Everlasting'''''Oh jesus if i had onley knew how muched you loved me and what you had in store for me~~i would have made it right but my soul hell oh jesus you our lord i beg for mercy''jesus christ is king of kings and lord of lords you were the only way before there was a way~~All the dead in christ Shall rise``old things are passed away He shall wipe all tears from there eyes And there reward shall be small~~~Blessed our the Souls Who Dont Sleep~~~ROCK ON SINCIRR haha

[bgivens33]

I don't see anyway around pre-destination given the Christian doctrine. If we were created by God, he created us with certain proclivities in certain areas. I was born a caucasian male in Florida. I was raised with a certain set of values that help determine what I will believe. If I was born in India, I'm sure my set of beliefs and values due to my surroundings. Christianity(Armenian) basically says that we are a form of Artificial Intelligence created by God. Artificial Intelligence is a bogus idea really. If I write a random number generator, to everyone else on the world, it creates random numbers. But for me, the author of the program, I feasably could predict the next number in line. If in my personal life, Christianity just doesn't add up to me. I just can't bring myself to believe that Jesus died for my sins. Is that really my choice? Can you really make yourself believe something? And most importantly, if God knew that I wasn't going to accept him, isn't he basically giving me a one way ticket to hell?

[american_bad_a$]

Yes!

God chose us. We did not choose him. We have no free will in the regard to salvation. The only areas that we can make our own choices are when we become christians and know right from wrong and can choose between them because we know that we need to do what is right.

But God choose those who will believe in him, and those whom he does not choose, he is giving "a one way ticket to hell."

Romans says, "there is none who does good, there is none who seeks after God." how can we, who are not good, choose God, who is good?

that is the question I always ask people.

[Sincirr]

Yes! God chose us. We did not choose him. We have no free will in the regard to salvation. The only areas that we can make our own choices are when we become christians and know right from wrong and can choose between them because we know that we need to do what is right.

But God chose those who will believe in him, and those whom he does not choose, he is giving "a one way ticket to hell."

Romans says, "there is none who does good, there is none who seeks after God." how can we, who are not good, choose God, who is good?

that is the question I always ask people.

The HOLY SPIRIT, who will guide us into all truth!

No-one should limit God and blatantly tell someone, yes, U R goin to hell and theres nothing U can do about it! Bgivens, U are still on a journey with Jesus. Also your thoughts on the way we are wired up, U need to read Phil 3, cos it talks about how obviously a true-born pharasee Paul was and how Jesus changed his whole way of living. With God all things are possible.

I still believe that whosoever that believes in Him will not perish! How could U decree whom the whosoever are?

What scares me about this theory is that the harvest is plentiful but the workers are few, cos we all sittin around goin, oh well, they are predestined to perish so what can we do?

Jesus said go and make disciples of ALL NATIONS! Matt 28:18
:mad:
I think it also sux that non-Christians that look at this thread will think that this is how Jesus sees them!!!!!

Christians, be careful too, cos those who thought they were the pre-chosen, were counted as goats. Concentrate on revealing Gods unconditional love to folks and forget this stuff. Its above our mere human thoughts.

[american_bad_a$]

The HOLY SPIRIT, who will guide us into all truth!

No-one should limit God and blatantly tell someone, yes, U R goin to hell and theres nothing U can do about it! Bgivens, U are still on a journey with Jesus. Also your thoughts on the way we are wired up, U need to read Phil 3, cos it talks about how obviously a true-born pharasee Paul was and how Jesus changed his whole way of living. With God all things are possible.

I still believe that whosoever that believes in Him will not perish! How could U decree whom the whosoever are?

What scares me about this theory is that the harvest is plentiful but the workers are few, cos we all sittin around goin, oh well, they are predestined to perish so what can we do?

Jesus said go and make disciples of ALL NATIONS! Matt 28:18
:mad:
I think it also sux that non-Christians that look at this thread will think that this is how Jesus sees them!!!!!

Christians, be careful too, cos those who thought they were the pre-chosen, were counted as goats. Concentrate on revealing Gods unconditional love to folks and forget this stuff. Its above our mere human thoughts.

if it is above our "mere human thoughts" then why are whole chapters written on the subject?

i agree with you on the whole gods unconditional love thing. but i disagree with you on that fact that we should not be discoursing on predestination and these other topics.

people will wonder, am I chosen of God? how do i found out? theywill not just shy away. i would be as interested as ever and do everything to learn about the subject.

[Sincirr]

if it is above our "mere human thoughts" then why are whole chapters written on the subject?

i agree with you on the whole gods unconditional love thing. but i disagree with you on that fact that we should not be discoursing on predestination and these other topics.

people will wonder, am I chosen of God? how do i found out? theywill not just shy away. i would be as interested as ever and do everything to learn about the subject.
Cool
But there are heaps of chapters about grace as well, but it seems that we truly dont have a clue on that one either.

[creedsister]

I do And to The Question That ABA There Asked~~Many Are Called But The Few Are chosen Now we dont know the chosen from the few Only If were lead by the spirt Of God If Your Chosen or called The lord Is going to let u know this As your spirtual walk with him grows or backslides And then back Again They will find out sooner or later

[american_bad_a$]

I do And to The Question That ABA There Asked~~Many Are Called But The Few Are chosen Now we dont know the chosen from the few Only If were lead by the spirt Of God If Your Chosen or called The lord Is going to let u know this As your spirtual walk with him grows or backslides And then back Again They will find out sooner or later

i don't understand where you're coming from

[bgivens33]

i don't understand where you're coming from

Welcome to the club :) :)

[RMadd]

I do not believe in this double election stuff. God wants everyone to be in heaven with him, but b/c of the sin in this world, and satan's trickery and all, not everyone does. God, by no means, damns anyone to hell before they are born.

[bgivens33]

I do not believe in this double election stuff. God wants everyone to be in heaven with him, but b/c of the sin in this world, and satan's trickery and all, not everyone does. God, by no means, damns anyone to hell before they are born.

But God created sin and Satan... if he truly wanted everyone in, he would not have created all that stuff. It's like test for us to pass, some of us were created equiped to pass it.. and some of us weren't.

[american_bad_a$]

I do not believe in this double election stuff. God wants everyone to be in heaven with him, but b/c of the sin in this world, and satan's trickery and all, not everyone does. God, by no means, damns anyone to hell before they are born.

what's your proof?

Romans 9:17 - 23, "For the Scripture says to pharaoh, "For this very purpose, I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My Name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth. So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, 'why does He still find fault, for who resists His will?' But on the contrary, who are you, oh man, to answer back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, 'why did you make me like this?' will it? Or does not the potter have the right over the clay to make from the same lump, one velles for honorable use, and another for common use? What is God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known endured with much patience veeeles of wrath prepared for destruction? And he did so in order that He might make known the righes of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory."

Ephesians 1:4, "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him."

The ones that God "chose" in this instance, are those how will be saved. What happenes to those who He did not choose? Are they left to wander around on the earth with no hope? Yes and no. Common sense tells us that if God chooses some people to go to heaven, then those that He did not choose to go to heaven, He chose them to go to hell.

[creedsister]

He Also Made the Day Of evil For Himself~Whatch proof that satan has no power but Evil Is evil Demons Walks amoung Us everyday As well As Angels But Im going in to a diffrent Topic Here It seems im deeper the most Read Revlation Ch 22~~Verse 11 >!15 My friend Is this that Final Election Your Talking About!!!!! COME ON COME ON!!!!!! its really not an election Its Called The HARVEST And The tares Shall Be Cut Down And so fourth and so fourth~~I better hush Now!!!!! PEACE AABA do you have a name son?

[RMadd]

So those of you who support these views are essentially against the existence of "free will" with regard to man's fate. Sure God created all in the heavens and the earth, but that does not mean he intends for certain people to go to hell. After all, if he did have full command of this world, then he wouldn't have needed Christ to die to defeat sin and save the people of the earth, past, present, and future. He could've said "satan, die" and that would've been that. And God didn't create evil. After all, for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Sin and the devil is not God's means of weeding out the weak ones on the face of this earth. He tries to plant the seed of his Holy Spirit in all, in various ways, and some people hearts are hardened by Satan. It says God hardens whomever he wants; that's not to say he damns whomever he wants. You are damned if, at death, you have not accepted Christ into your heart and life. But up until then, God's Spirit works in you to "turn from the dark side", so to speak.

[american_bad_a$]

So those of you who support these views are essentially against the existence of "free will" with regard to man's fate. Sure God created all in the heavens and the earth, but that does not mean he intends for certain people to go to hell. After all, if he did have full command of this world, then he wouldn't have needed Christ to die to defeat sin and save the people of the earth, past, present, and future. He could've said "satan, die" and that would've been that. And God didn't create evil. After all, for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Sin and the devil is not God's means of weeding out the weak ones on the face of this earth. He tries to plant the seed of his Holy Spirit in all, in various ways, and some people hearts are hardened by Satan. It says God hardens whomever he wants; that's not to say he damns whomever he wants. You are damned if, at death, you have not accepted Christ into your heart and life. But up until then, God's Spirit works in you to "turn from the dark side", so to speak.

Are you saying that god doesn't have absolute control? cause he does. he didn't need to do anything. he does them for the glorification of himself.

[creedsister]

Are you saying that god doesn't have absolute control? cause he does. he didn't need to do anything. he does them for the glorification of himself. your right aab$ :)

[Sincirr]

Are you saying that god doesn't have absolute control? cause he does.
Man has always had their own choices though. The fact that God stood by and allowed a&e to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil proves that. Cos if He had the right to determine the fate of everybody he wouldnt have let that happen, cos it screwed everything up. They obviously had a choice and God doesnt change and couldnt stop that. Just like the trees back then, we still have the same choice now, Jesus or the world. Like there was back then, there is God on the earth, and satan tempting people. We still have to make a decision.

Bearfan had some good stuff to say.

God so loved the WORLD! Not, God so loved to move us around like pawns...

If a non-Christian is driving U nuts, do U just shrug them off as being damned and get on with your life? I think it's not Jesus, but Christians that send some people straight to hell!

[creedsister]

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: Man has always had their own choices though. The fact that God stood by and allowed a&e to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil proves that. Cos if He had the right to determine the fate of everybody he wouldnt have let that happen, cos it screwed everything up. They obviously had a choice and God doesnt change and couldnt stop that. Just like the trees back then, we still have the same choice now, Jesus or the world. Like there was back then, there is God on the earth, and satan tempting people. We still have to make a decision.

Bearfan had some good stuff to say.

God so loved the WORLD! Not, God so loved to move us around like pawns...

If a non-Christian is driving U nuts, do U just shrug them off as being damned and get on with your life? I think it's not Jesus, but Christians that send some people straight to hell! :clap: :clap: COULD NOT SAID IT BETTER MY SELF!!!!!!! ROCK ON!!!!!!

[american_bad_a$]

Man has always had their own choices though. The fact that God stood by and allowed a&e to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil proves that. Cos if He had the right to determine the fate of everybody he wouldnt have let that happen, cos it screwed everything up. They obviously had a choice and God doesnt change and couldnt stop that. Just like the trees back then, we still have the same choice now, Jesus or the world. Like there was back then, there is God on the earth, and satan tempting people. We still have to make a decision.

Bearfan had some good stuff to say.

God so loved the WORLD! Not, God so loved to move us around like pawns...

If a non-Christian is driving U nuts, do U just shrug them off as being damned and get on with your life? I think it's not Jesus, but Christians that send some people straight to hell!

dang, you have some screwed up theology.

God let adam and eve eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil for a reason. he could have stopped them and done something else, but He didn't. God let them eat because the end would glorify Him. and that end is when the world ends, satan is destroyed and sentanced to the lake of fire forever, and all the christinas go to heaven. god is sovereign. he knew that tadam and eve were going to eat of the tree. and if he knew it was gonna happen, he planned it.

man has a choice. you are right. but the only option in that choice is to sin. Romans says, no one chooses to do good. only christians can choose to do good because they are christinas have have the holy spirit indwelling them and therefore, they can make the right decisions.

God is sovereign, he is not hindered by anything. he can do anything, cause anything and stop anything. i don't understand how you can say that god couldn't stop adam and eve from eating from the tree.

christians dob't send people to hell. God. does. Luke 12:5, "fear the one who has authority to cast into hell..." that is God. Christians do not send people to hell. it is their job to witness to the people that are going to hell. jesus said, "i did not come to call the righteous, but the sinners."

no, i don't shug of a nonbeliever cause he is aggrivating me. i talk to him about the truth, and pray for him.

does this not make any sense to you?

[bgivens33]

I gotta agree with aba$... Adam and Eve eating from the tree was planned. Without that happening, why is there a need for Jesus?? Them eating from that tree is what separates us from animals. We now know right and wrong and are capable of morals ect. It was planned.

[american_bad_a$]

I gotta agree with aba$... Adam and Eve eating from the tree was planned. Without that happening, why is there a need for Jesus?? Them eating from that tree is what separates us from animals. We now know right and wrong and are capable of morals ect. It was planned.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :

[Sincirr]

God said that they must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Read it in Genesis 2:16-17.

There was a need for Jesus because of the choice that Adam and Eve made. God never intended man to wear clothes for example, but because of the introduction to the "knowledge of good and evil" thing, God worked with what He had cos yes, He will still be glorified through everything in the end.

Before that they had no issue being naked. BUT because of their choice to eat the fruit, the rest is history.

Adam and Eve were superior to the animals not because they ate from the tree, but cos of Genesis 1:28;..fill the earth and subdue it, Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground. This account is before the tree!

I just see stuff here on this board, and in the discussions that we had on this in my theology classes, that makes me think that your theory has megga holes! Guess I will never be satisfied. Nice try though! ;)

[creedsister]

Now heres the bottom line god always knows the future before it becomes the past but he started with adam and eve!!!!HE Did Say dont Eat It`but they did!!!IF WE KNEW EVERYTHING WE WOULD BE GOD} SEEK And shall find!!!!In him is many hidden Secrets} people!!!

[american_bad_a$]

God said that they must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Read it in Genesis 2:16-17.

There was a need for Jesus because of the choice that Adam and Eve made. God never intended man to wear clothes for example, but because of the introduction to the "knowledge of good and evil" thing, God worked with what He had cos yes, He will still be glorified through everything in the end.

Before that they had no issue being naked. BUT because of their choice to eat the fruit, the rest is history.

Adam and Eve were superior to the animals not because they ate from the tree, but cos of Genesis 1:28;..fill the earth and subdue it, Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground. This account is before the tree!

I just see stuff here on this board, and in the discussions that we had on this in my theology classes, that makes me think that your theory has megga holes! Guess I will never be satisfied. Nice try though! ;)

my theology?

adam and eve were superior to the animals. all humans are. but there are those left wingist who think that the human race is a plague and that the animals are what the world is all about. they think that the earth was infected with a disease - mankind.

but we are not talking about that. adam and eve had a choice - like i said. and that choice was already known by god. he planned it. he didn't create sin, that was satan. and satan was not evil to begin with. he was the highest and most holy of angels. i don't know where you are coming from, i think your post is :offtopic: help me understand where you are coming from

[bgivens33]

God said that they must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Read it in Genesis 2:16-17.

There was a need for Jesus because of the choice that Adam and Eve made. God never intended man to wear clothes for example, but because of the introduction to the "knowledge of good and evil" thing, God worked with what He had cos yes, He will still be glorified through everything in the end.

Before that they had no issue being naked. BUT because of their choice to eat the fruit, the rest is history.

Adam and Eve were superior to the animals not because they ate from the tree, but cos of Genesis 1:28;..fill the earth and subdue it, Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground. This account is before the tree!

I just see stuff here on this board, and in the discussions that we had on this in my theology classes, that makes me think that your theory has megga holes! Guess I will never be satisfied. Nice try though! ;)

So you are saying an omnicient and omnipotent God didn't know that Adam and Eve would eat from a tree and then had to improvise via Jesus?? Hmmmmm..... there's your major plot hole.

[american_bad_a$]

that mas not my quote, obviously, but yes, you are right, bgivens. God new everything that would happen. he planed it. he is sovereign and that means he is omnipotents and in complete and utter control, but i think you alrady knew that. but yeah, God planned and new eveything that was gonna happen.

i don't understand how people can say other wise. the bible is so clear on matters like these.

[Sincirr]

So you are saying an omnicient and omnipotent God didn't know that Adam and Eve would eat from a tree and then had to improvise via Jesus?? Hmmmmm..... there's your major plot hole.
NO! I am saying that God knew that because He gave them the right to eat the different fruits of trees, but told them not to eat off that certain tree, that they could go one way or the other, and I believe that because of His completeness and the fact that regardless of whether they did or not, He would be glorified, that He had Jesus in mind if they did, and that is why I still believe that the choice was theirs.

The things people have said on this thread against this theory are good! Give them a listen, with a humble mindset.

Oh and AB$, I thought I would let this slide, but dont you ever blatantly say that my theology is messed up again thanks! Cos there are verses to back up pro or con on this matter! You have ignored all of these! If U said that to anyone else here you'd get your butt kicked!

You are so young! U are quite intelligent, I will give U that, but U still have alot to learn! Stay humble concerning the word, cos I recon you have NO RIGHT to say that the other side of things is not scripturally valid! Perhaps U brought up some interesting points, but this is one of those mysteries of the word of God that theologians have and will be arguing over till we see Him face to face.

And I wont be posting here again unless I'm replying to someone elses thoughts, or if someone gets really hurt and angry concerning your comments! Please be careful that U dont hurt people!

[american_bad_a$]

sorry if i hurt you "feelings" but the same thing has been said to me here.

[bgivens33]

Ok, I think I'm starting to see where you are coming from now. There is still just one more thing that you posted that just doesn't make sense.

that He had Jesus in mind if they did

There is no "if" with God. He already knew. He knew they were going to sin. Why?? Because he created them. Jesus was not part of the "back up" plan... he was part of the plan. I personally believe that free will(artificial intelligence) is a concept made up by man. Given a creator... it can NOT exsist.

[american_bad_a$]

Ok, I think I'm starting to see where you are coming from now. There is still just one more thing that you posted that just doesn't make sense.

that He had Jesus in mind if they did

There is no "if" with God. He already knew. He knew they were going to sin. Why?? Because he created them. Jesus was not part of the "back up" plan... he was part of the plan. I personally believe that free will(artificial intelligence) is a concept made up by man. Given a creator... it can NOT exsist.

YES!!

I do agree with you on every point. But this is just something to0 clear my mind up or whatever. Christinas have "free will" in the sense that they can choose what they are going to do now (sin or do what is right) because they have the Holy Spirit residing in them. Right?

[bgivens33]

That's a little more tricky. I would like to think yes, they do have a limited amount of choice. But even then, if I give into sin, and another person doesn't... what makes them able to do that? It's a grey area really. I make my decisions based on a choice analasys... i.e., if I do this, what will then happen. If for some reason, I make the wrong choice... what made me make that choice? And more importantly, am I able to fully control the reasons of why I made that choice? So really.... I don't know. Glad to have cleared that one up for you :)

[american_bad_a$]

yeah, i understand where you are coming from. But i mean like i have the choice to, lets say, look at porn on the internet. Or, i have the choice not to, because i know that it is wrong. i am talking about that kind of free will. i think that christinas, when in a situation like that, have the free will to choose to do what is right, and wrong. cause we are christians now. we can choose to do what is right because the holy spirit is helping us. and we choose to do what is wrong because we are still human and one of satan's main jobs is to make the believer fall.

[RMadd]

I gotta agree with aba$... Adam and Eve eating from the tree was planned. Without that happening, why is there a need for Jesus?? Them eating from that tree is what separates us from animals. We now know right and wrong and are capable of morals ect. It was planned.
Had they not eaten from the tree, there wouldn't have been a need for Christ, I agree. But that wasn't necessarily part of God's plan when He created this world. Yes, God can see into the future. If God is perfect, sinless, etc, then why would he want to introduce sin into this world, which is the sole cause of human suffering? Had there been no sin, then it wouldn't matter whether we knew right from wrong, now wouldn't it? God doesn't use his force that he's capable of (as we've seen in The Flood) for two reasons: he promised he wouldn't wipe people from the face of the Earth again; and people would despise their lives knowing they had no control over their future. So God allows us to make our own decisions, for better or worse (morality). He allows us to mess up. He forgives us. He also uses his Holy Spirit, through other people, to call us to Him.

[RMadd]

Given a creator... it can NOT exsist.
Unless he is a benevolent creator. I believe there exists a mix of free will and predestination (though I disagree with the idea of predestination when it comes to God determining our fates before we are born).

[RMadd]

dang, you have some screwed up theology.
Not cool, man.


God let adam and eve eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil for a reason. he could have stopped them and done something else, but He didn't. God let them eat because the end would glorify Him. and that end is when the world ends, satan is destroyed and sentanced to the lake of fire forever, and all the christinas go to heaven. god is sovereign. he knew that tadam and eve were going to eat of the tree. and if he knew it was gonna happen, he planned it.
Or perhaps there exists free will, he trusted they would follow his rules, they didn't. It seems to me that, in saying this, you are essentially calling God malicious and a sometimes-trickster. You know, that he intended for people to screw up. Doesn't say anything about that in the Bible. Just b/c you know something's going to happen doesn't mean you plan it. I might be the CEO of a car manufacturer, I might know that all my union workers are going to strike, but does that mean I plan it? No.

man has a choice. you are right. but the only option in that choice is to sin. Romans says, no one chooses to do good. only christians can choose to do good because they are christinas have have the holy spirit indwelling them and therefore, they can make the right decisions.

are you saying that, by double election, you mean that all Christians go to Heaven and everyone else goes to hell? If that's the case, then I agree with you. But I don't agree with the fact that "oh, this Buddhist can never be converted b/c God has damned him from birth"

God is sovereign, he is not hindered by anything. he can do anything, cause anything and stop anything. i don't understand how you can say that god couldn't stop adam and eve from eating from the tree.
Easy: free will. Like I said in a previous post, laws of science dictate that "for every action, there exists an equal and opposite reaction"; thus, evil and sin inherently oppose good. Therefore, it was necessary for the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil to exist. Because Christ was not part of God's plan at the time, Adam and Eve were given only one chance to screw up. Once they blew it the first time (as any of us would have done), simply killing Satan would not wipe out sin. Sin is inherent.

christians dob't send people to hell. God. does. Luke 12:5, "fear the one who has authority to cast into hell..." that is God. Christians do not send people to hell. it is their job to witness to the people that are going to hell. jesus said, "i did not come to call the righteous, but the sinners."
True, but I've heard stories in church of people who have either stopped going to church or did not go in the first place b/c of lack of hospitality and/or no invitation to join. Wouldn't you say it's nearly impossible for someone to know Christ if he/she is not exposed to him in the first place? It is our job as Christians to spread the Word of God to nonbelievers, not sit idly by, assuming they are all damned to burn in hell. That's why, in my opinion, I think it's great that bands like P.O.D. play OzzFest and tour with secular bands. Reaching out to those who have not yet been saved.

[american_bad_a$]

Or perhaps there exists free will, he trusted they would follow his rules, they didn't. It seems to me that, in saying this, you are essentially calling God malicious and a sometimes-trickster. You know, that he intended for people to screw up. Doesn't say anything about that in the Bible. Just b/c you know something's going to happen doesn't mean you plan it. I might be the CEO of a car manufacturer, I might know that all my union workers are going to strike, but does that mean I plan it? No.

That's a good analogy, but it didn't work that way. when a sovereign God knows something is going to happen, be planned it because he is in control of everything. I am not calling God a trickster. Free will does not exist before one is a christian. Everyone is born a sinner and destined to hell from birth. Romans 5:12, "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned."


are you saying that, by double election, you mean that all Christians go to Heaven and everyone else goes to hell? If that's the case, then I agree with you. But I don't agree with the fact that "oh, this Buddhist can never be converted b/c God has damned him from birth"

I mean by double election that those whome God didn't choose to go to heaven, all the rest, he chose for hell. Romans 9:17, "For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." everyone who is born is destined to die. it is only through christ's sacrifice on the cross that some will be saved.


Easy: free will. Like I said in a previous post, laws of science dictate that "for every action, there exists an equal and opposite reaction"; thus, evil and sin inherently oppose good. Therefore, it was necessary for the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil to exist. Because Christ was not part of God's plan at the time, Adam and Eve were given only one chance to screw up. Once they blew it the first time (as any of us would have done), simply killing Satan would not wipe out sin. Sin is inherent.

the tree did have to exist because it was Gods plan that man would fall, and that he would send his son to die on the cross. the whole point of the creation of the universe was for the death of christ on the cross. why do you think that the ground shaked, the sky was darkened, and people were miraculously risen from the dead when christ died? the focus point of all creation was for christ to die. jesus said, "the stones will cry out." everything recognized that he was the point of everything.


True, but I've heard stories in church of people who have either stopped going to church or did not go in the first place b/c of lack of hospitality and/or no invitation to join. Wouldn't you say it's nearly impossible for someone to know Christ if he/she is not exposed to him in the first place? It is our job as Christians to spread the Word of God to nonbelievers, not sit idly by, assuming they are all damned to burn in hell. That's why, in my opinion, I think it's great that bands like P.O.D. play OzzFest and tour with secular bands. Reaching out to those who have not yet been saved.[/QUOTE]

yeah, stuff like that happens. but your original statement was that "christians send people to hell". and that isn't true.

have i left out anything, i hope not.

[Aaron J]

Way to go American Bad @s,

You believe in the doctrines of grace i take it?

I do too.