...quote from Paradise Lost

[Lechium]

"Better to reign in hell, than to serve in heaven" -- John Milton, from 'Paradise Lost'

Do you guys agree?

[goddess_bb]

Lech..you are not happy unless you are stirring up shit huh??
You are tooo funny..:D

[Lechium]

It's boring here otherwise.
P.S. I do expect an answer to the question lol

[JulieCitySlicker]

You can reign in hell if you want to Lech:eek: But I have news for ya;) You'll be doing a lot less fun things down there;)

[Lechium]

This is NOT about christian persepction of heaven and hell. Dont take it too literaly... think a bit heh

[Siana]

Originally posted by Lechium
<b>"Better to reign in hell, than to serve in heaven" -- John Milton, from 'Paradise Lost'

Do you guys agree? </b>

depends on if there's something worth it to reign in hell.depends what that servitute is for

[Dogstar]

It may not require a Christian perspective, but the question still goes to the heart of a person's morality and personality in my mind. Are you a hell-raiser or a goody-goody? Are you a risk-taker/adventurer, or do you play it safe and take the road most traveled...I'd say I'm in the middle. Depends on the circumstances.

[StrubesGuitar]

Lechium, whats so good bout reigning in hell? Hell is a place w/"gnashing of teeth", IT' ETERNAL DAMNATION! that's not cool. Those who reign w/Christ will reside on a new earth and heaven.
I was reading some of ur earlier posts and i see you are very smart and logical. But i am disappionted by some who call themselves Christians who do not speak the truth in love as we are commanded to. Wadrick has no right to judge u. But since he claims to be a believer i can judge him. What u read from him was not spoken correctly. Lechium, u've heard it a billion times, GOD LOVES U! And He always will. why are u angry at him? why don't u believe in him? And in paradise, u won't be just serving, it will be a huge partay!

[goddess_bb]

allright your answer to your question.. what if hell is this reality and so there is no hell and brimstone cause hey we are already living in hell???:dunno:

[StrubesGuitar]

What IF! WHAT IF! WHAT IF! AH! Hell is real. there is the human world(us) and the spiritual world. There is heaven, there is hell. Though this life on earth feels like a living hell (only sometimes), we have smthg to look forward to (heaven). Try thinkin bout the good things in life. THE CUP IS HALF FULL(optimism). We have a purpose, and we should serve it to the fullest.

[Lechium]

You're talking about "hell" and "heaven" in biblical notation. Dont. Dont take things too literay.

[DangerousDan85]

i want to reign in Hell, i'm too lazy to be a servant, :lol:


:devil: :cheers: :smokin: :drunk: :gandalf: :drunk2: :devil:

[StrubesGuitar]

What other ways are there to talk bout heaven and hell besides a christian perspective? Maybe in Hindu, Islam, humanist, realist, etc.???????

[Lechium]

How about non-religious perspective?
Word "hell" has many uses.

person1: "how was your day?"
person2: "hellish!"

does person2 refere to biblical hell? No he is merely sayign that day was hard and sucked.

[StrubesGuitar]

Yeah, my friend just told me his summer will be "hellish". But that word is derived in a way. Hell is hard/bad and it sucks! But the thing u have to take in perspective is where the word was derived from. As u said, it does have many uses. More uses??Give some. If someone says there day was hellish, -ish meaning like, than there day literally meant it was "like hell". Hell, in the Dict. has two sections: Christianity-wise, and like u said, describing a bad situation. Its roots go back to the old days of the Bible, when used not as a descriptive or mildly profane word. But today, we take it and use it to describe how a day seemed like we were in hell, or felt it, or the day itself was LIKE hell. Therefore, it's roots do go back to Christianity and still can be used in non-religious perspective. Like it or not, it still has to do w/hell from Christianity. So think about it. But i use it in a non-religious perspective, so, i just wanted to give u some background info.

[Steve]

Lechium, in your example, "hellish" is being used as a verb. In your original question, you are using "heaven" and "hell" as nouns. The definition of "hell" as a noun according to dictionary.com is:

1.

a. often Hell The abode of condemned souls and devils in some religions; the place of eternal punishment for the wicked after death, presided over by Satan.
b. A state of separation from God; exclusion from God's presence.

2.

The abode of the dead, identified with the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades; the underworld.

3.

a. A situation or place of evil, misery, discord, or destruction: “War is hell” (William Tecumseh Sherman).
b. Torment; anguish: went through hell on the job.

4.

a. The powers of darkness and evil.
b. Informal. One that causes trouble, agony, or annoyance: The boss is hell when a job is poorly done.

5.

A sharp scolding: gave the student hell for cheating.


6.
Informal. Excitement, mischievousness, or high spirits: We did it for the sheer hell of it.

7.

a. A tailor's receptacle for discarded material.
b. Printing. A hellbox.


8.

Informal. Used as an intensive: How the hell can I go? You did one hell of a job.


9.

Archaic. A gambling house.

------------------

Unless you are referring to "hell" as a gambling house or a tailor's receptacle for discarded materials in your question, then hell takes the meaning of a place of evil, darkness, dead, etc. This happens to be the similar definition of hell in a religious sense. So when people are answering the question with religious feelings, it is acceptable and understandable.

If you look up the definition of "heaven" on dictionary.com you'll notice the same as I described above, except for the fact that heaven refers to a place of peace, happiness, delight, etc.

Back to the question: I ask you, why would you wish to rule a place of evil when you have the opportunity to live in peace and delight? The question at hand is fairly broad, but with some analyzing and thinking one can narrow down it's meaning. What does "serving" mean in heaven? Does it mean you have to condone physical labor on a constant basis or does it mean you simply have to believe in heaven or a/the God? Obviously, unless constant physical labor is delightful to you, it would contradict the definition of heaven and thus make no sense. You'd have to conclude that "serving" is referring to something that is peaceful or delightful to the individual and thus, why would you not choose heaven?

Personally, I'd go with heaven.

[goddess_bb]

Incrediable Steve...excellent point..

My :2cents: I believe hell is a place or anyplace with a absence of GOD.. think about it...

(braces for Lech's reply...)

[Lechium]

You people amaze me...
When I said not to use biblical connotation, you're still stickng to it.
Ok here are things spelled out for you.

Would you rather be say a well respected person with social status in a small poor village in Africa, with 50% of peopel dying from AIDS (say a local chieftain or something), or would you be an office worker in a developed country, who drives a nice car and such, and always tries to please his boss for a tiny promotion he craves for.

What woudl you choose?

[StrubesGuitar]

We stick to it because we are what are. I can't be smthg i am not. I will stay my true self no matter what. We would pick the guy w/the car and other stuff. But are u suggesting that the African example would be heaven and the office dude would be hell, assuming that ur saying u reign in that office world, and serve in that African country? Wealth is fleeting and worthless in the long run. Even some of the most wealthy and distinguished people in the world wish they didn't have all their $.

[Steve]

Originally posted by Lechium
You people amaze me...
When I said not to use biblical connotation, you're still stickng to it.

You amaze me. Did you read any part of my post?

[Higher_Desire]

It means that it is better to be a ruler over a bunch of people who have done bad and are now being punished, working for you, than to be a servant to a perfect being who never made mistakes. Why rule over good people who do almost no wrong when you can punish and run on power by ruling over sinners?


H-D

[JulieCitySlicker]

Originally posted by Lechium
You people amaze me...
When I said not to use biblical connotation, you're still stickng to it.
Ok here are things spelled out for you.

Would you rather be say a well respected &nbsp;person with social status in a small poor village in Africa, with 50% of peopel dying from AIDS (say a local chieftain or something), or would you be an office worker in a developed country, who drives a nice car and such, and always tries to please his boss for a tiny promotion he craves for.

What woudl you choose? Well DUH!!! WE use it because it is what we BELIEVE in! Thank you very much;)

[mel!ssa]

Leech, if you didn't want people to think of hell in the biblical sense, why did you post it in the faith/religion forum? :lol:

[Bridge of Clay]

I´m just watching!

Anyway, let´s think of this:

You rule in Hell: so you rule jealous and envious and evil and ass-kisser people.

You serve in Heaven: a peaceful and delightful place with good and just human beings like you. People are happy and people are helpful.

That stated, let´s assume: On Heaven, you won´t have problems. On hell, it´s more than possible violence exists. So, you´re reigning there, but for how long? You know your servers may be planning an evil conspiratory plot to remove you of your place and "kill" you. Therefore, you´ll live with fear, hiding from people and ordering a "trustful" "friend" (for how long?) as a spokeperson.

I´ll stick with heaven! :cloud9:

[goddess_bb]

LECH---
Faith is not a logical thing..it's just something that you feel...so Doll, quit trying to make it logical it will never work and you will never win an argument here...
We all believe deepy nothing is going to change that...

[Lechium]

Originally posted by Steve
<b>Back to the question: I ask you, why would you wish to rule a place of evil when you have the opportunity to live in peace and delight? The question at hand is fairly broad, but with some analyzing and thinking one can narrow down it's meaning. What does "serving" mean in heaven?</b>

"serve" can mean many things, but above all it means that you're not free, you have people above you who tell you what to do, and most importantly you depend on others.

So would you rather depend on others and not be free, but in nice conditions, or would you be in charge and not depend on others, in a shithole?

That's one way to look at this question. This is quote from "Paradise Lost" so dont ask me what exaclty it means lol

2goddes: The spiritual world, the afterlife exist and therefore can be understood and studied. That's why I choose not to have faith in dogma someone else had written.

[Steve]

Originally posted by Lechium
2goddes: The spiritual world, the afterlife exist and therefore can be understood and studied. That's why I choose not to have faith in dogma someone else had written.

Saying "spiritual world exists" is an oxymoron and quite false. Spiritual means "Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not tangible or material" - so how can something not tangible or material exist in our physical world? The spiritual world and the afterlife is something that you believe in. There is no physical evidence of a spiritual world or the afterlife other than individual accounts of what they experienced - an "out of body" experience. That is hardly physical evidence. (If there is physical evidence, then I stand corrected - but please show me where this is documented)

[mel!ssa]

You didn't answer my question, but anyway...

In answer to your original question, I'd go with heaven. What's so wrong with serving? Since when is being the guy on top the most important thing in the world? Personally i'd rather let someone else be the boss, i haven't got a problem with being told what to do rather than being the one who's telling others what to do... I haven't got an authority problem...

[Lechium]

Originally posted by Steve
<b>Saying "spiritual world exists" is an oxymoron and quite false. Spiritual means "Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not tangible or material" - so how can something not tangible or material exist in our physical world?</b>

When did I say "in our physical world"? It exists in parallel to our physical world (I think). I never said that it was tangeble.

Originally posted by Steve
<b>The spiritual world and the afterlife is something that you believe in. There is no physical evidence of a spiritual world or the afterlife other than individual accounts of what they experienced - an "out of body" experience. That is hardly physical evidence.</b>

OOBE was studied a lot, and still is, so it does sound pretty possible. At least they dont say "gotta have faith" but try to figure out conditions in which OOBE is possible, and such.

Originally posted by Steve
(If there is physical evidence, then I stand corrected - but please show me where this is documented)
Well you cant really have physical evidence of nonphysical world, now can you? =)

2mel: you asked me what religion I was, and I answered to my best ability...

[Steve]

Lechium, you asked for a logical look at this topic, so that's what I'm doing...

When did I say "in our physical world"?

You implied that when you asked to answer the question logically.

Well you cant really have physical evidence of nonphysical world, now can you? =)

Logically, it cannot exist if there is no physical evidence of it existing. I would say it's a matter of faith unless there's documented proof it exists. (and I don't think an individuals account of what they experienced while in a coma is documentable proof).

[JulieCitySlicker]

(QUOTE) by lechium
serve" can mean many things, but above all it means that you're not free, you have people above you who tell you what to do, and most importantly you depend on others.(QUOTE)

Actually being a servant in this case is just doing things for others on your own free will;) Because yuou want to make someones day and be a goood person:angel:

[Siana]

well said

[Lechium]

Originally posted by Steve
Logically, it cannot exist if there is no physical evidence of it existing. I would say it's a matter of faith unless there's documented proof it exists. (and I don't think an individuals account of what they experienced while in a coma is documentable proof).

http://www.monroeinstitute.org/
That's no proof, but they're working on it.

[Steve]

Originally posted by Lechium
http://www.monroeinstitute.org/
That's no proof, but they're working on it.

When there's proof, let me know!

[Lechium]

Originally posted by Steve
When there's proof, let me know!

Look which forum section we're in? Religion huh? You have an entire forum dedicated to proofless "gotta have faith or you'll burn in hell" phenomenon called "religion", and yet you're asking me for a proof?
lol

[Steve]

You're the one who started the thread in the religion forum asking for people to look at this topic without a religious perspective... I'm just doing what you asked for originally.

[Samuel]

Hell is real,if you think that your separated from God now wait till you get there.It is not just the seering heat it is the eternal separation from God and the Savior Jesus Christ.Lord allow this person to see the Truth from your word in the mighty name of Jesus.Amen!

[StrubesGuitar]

It's not all about the "religion". Religion is an idea that is started by someone, that requires acts made to the god(s) involved. Religion is basically going through the actions. The idea of religion is wrong. Faith is correct. Lech, we christians are not just following a religion, it's a faith, in our loving savior Jesus Christ. He is God incarnate(in the flesh). What u may see is religion, which is easy to see, but try to see beyond it. Look beyond the facade, look at the roots and truth behind this facade. Religion doesn't hold us together, faith does. Have do u know what we say is proofless? Have u checked the facts, u seem to be a fact kinda guy. Look at the facts as if they were the same as those of post modern views. You can't say it's proofless unless it's proven wrong, no hasty generalization now. Like in court, innocent until proven guilty, right until proven wrong. And i don't think we can not talk about heaven or hell from a non-Christian view because we are what we are, and u're in the faith/religion forum and that's what ur gonna get.

[Northerner]

Lech: One simple fact that destroys your original question and the following argument -----

No-one other than satan is going to have any "power" or authority in hell. There will be no joy. No happiness. Just simple misery. The devil may lure people with the promise of reigning with him in Hell, but it's simply lie. Even if you did have a bit of power down there, no joy would be reaped from it; no pleasure, It simply doesn't exist down there.

[StrubesGuitar]

OH YEAH NORTHERNER! AN EXCELLENT POINT! (i do mean it)

[Lechium]

Originally posted by Northerner
<b>Lech: One simple fact that destroys your original question and the following argument -----

No-one other than satan is going to have any "power" or authority in hell. There will be no joy. No happiness. Just simple misery. The devil may lure people with the promise of reigning with him in Hell, but it's simply lie. Even if you did have a bit of power down there, no joy would be reaped from it; no pleasure, It simply doesn't exist down there. </b>
OK, just for you let me rephrase the question.
Would you rather be Satan, or just another God's servant in heaven?

You're looking at thsi question with a VERY narrow perspective.

P.S. Many religiosn have Heaven/Hell, so why you all assume that we're talking about Biblical ones? You're so funny.

[StrubesGuitar]

In the end, ultimately, Satan will lose. Sure might reign w/Satan for a little, but Satan will be thrown into the lake of fire in the end, and the prince of darkness will be defeated. Then God will set up a new earth and a new heaven. If u are on God's side, even a servant in Heaven, you will reign w/him forever. We are given that promise. Remember this is also the FAITH forum. Read my thing on religion up there.

[StrubesGuitar]

How about u tell us all about the heavens and hells of other religions, give us examples. I assume u're talking about Biblical because that is the only truth i know, and i believe it is also correct. I'll be prayin for ya Lech.

[Lechium]

Again. Why do you take heaven/hell in Biblical notion? Other religiosn have ideas similar to heaven/hell also. And yes it is Religion forum, and there are other religions than Christianity, you know.

P.S. Many religions dont have war/conflict going between heaven and hell. Hell is like a prison, and it's ruler is like a warden appointed by higher gods.

[StrubesGuitar]

Satan is a wardenlike person, but he is also a fallen angel, he wanted to be as powerful as God and he still strives to do so, by tempting and deceiving and twisting all we know into nothingness and meaningless. God did kind of "appoint" Satan to do that job by banishing him from the kingdom of Heaven. Yeah there are other religions, but this one is the most reasonable, because of its historical accurateness, benefits, loving and personal relationship w/the Creator of the heavens and earth, etc.

[Lechium]

2StrubesGuitar: Christianity _SEEMS_ to be most reasonable to you, only beacuase you had been submereged in it all yoru life. If you took you time (really took your time) and effort and tried other religions, you'll see that they're pretty reasonable too.
Islam is so fast growing for a reason, you know.
Bhuddism is one of most dominant religions in teh world for a good reaosn too.

Also why are you talking about "benefits"? You're choosing your faith and what thsi world really is, according to who will offer you better afterlife package? lol

[StrubesGuitar]

Hey, if i can get all the good stuff in the end, i'm willing to stay faithful to the One who offers it. Hey, i have checked out other religions, i know what their god is and what happens in the end,what you have to do to "please" the god, and yes i have been submerged in Chistianity my whole life, but i have questioned my faith before. I read a book that gives all the historical evidence for the Bible, I have asked Him to reveal himself to me, and He did. No weird enlightenment and transcendentalistic junk. U just ask. He has shown me himself through people, thru miracles, thru situations, thru music, etc. But what if you REALLY submersed urself in Christianity? Have u checked what they offer? Most others have a heaven that has different levels of glory. If ur really good, ur in the highest level, if ur ok, ur in the middle level, and so on. Then there's reincarnation: that would really be bad cause you'd have to go through the hells of this world OVER AND OVER AND OVER!!!!!! So what if they grow real fast? Weeds grow real fast too. Yeah, so take all this stuff into consideration. I'll be prayin for ya.

[mel!ssa]

Originally posted by Lechium
2mel: you asked me what religion I was, and I answered to my best ability...

Nooooo.....

I asked you, if you didn't want people to think of hell in the biblical sense, why did you post it in the faith/religion forum?

Others have also pointed this out.

And your answer......??????

[Lechium]

Originally posted by mel!ssa
Nooooo.....

I asked you, if you didn't want people to think of hell in the biblical sense, why did you post it in the faith/religion forum?

Others have also pointed this out.

And your answer......??????
Okay.
This is not Christianity forum. This is Religion forum. And there are many different religions. Bible's not only religious book you know.

Concept of hell/heaven exists in many religions. But fail to see teh big picure of hell/heaven, because they approach to heaven/hell issuse viewing it in a very specific Biblical perspective.

Hope that answers your question.

[Lechium]

Originally posted by StrubesGuitar
<b>Hey, if i can get all the good stuff in the end, i'm willing to stay faithful to the One who offers it. Hey, i have checked out other religions, i know what their god is and what happens in the end,what you have to do to "please" the god, and yes i have been submerged in Chistianity my whole life, but i have questioned my faith before. I read a book that gives all the historical evidence for the Bible, I have asked Him to reveal himself to me, and He did. No weird enlightenment and transcendentalistic junk. U just ask. He has shown me himself through people, thru miracles, thru situations, thru music, etc. But what if you REALLY submersed urself in Christianity? Have u checked what they offer? Most others have a heaven that has different levels of glory. If ur really good, ur in the highest level, if ur ok, ur in the middle level, and so on. Then there's reincarnation: that would really be bad cause you'd have to go through the hells of this world OVER AND OVER AND OVER!!!!!! So what if they grow real fast? Weeds grow real fast too. Yeah, so take all this stuff into consideration. I'll be prayin for ya. </b>

a) I'm TIRED if people telling me how they're gonna go to heaven, and I'm gonna go to hell. I've been told that enough times, so vut it out. We'll see if you're right or not eventually, and for now please drop it.

B) Please stop preaching. Religious fanatics amuse me in the beginning, but they all end up being annoying.

c) Reincarnation sounds much more believable to me than Judgment day. It's gonna suck to be stuck in this phycical world thou -- I wanna go to afterlife.

[mel!ssa]

Okay, what i should have said was, if you didn't want people to think of hell in the SPIRITUAL sense (thereby including all religions), then why did you ask your original question, which you said was just about ruling in a bad place or serving in a good place, in the faith/religion forum? Trust me, you would have gotten very different answers if you'd started this thread in the Chat-O-Rama... because then people wouldn't be thinking of hell in a spiritual, or religious, or whatever sense.

[StrubesGuitar]

Lech, i did not say u were going to hell. I know i'm going to heaven because I was promised this if i believed on Jesus Christ.
You have the choice of going to heaven or hell (course that's getting into the whole free will/predestination controversy, which i choose not to hold a pos. on cause i think the divisions in the church are stupid). I'm not a religious fanatic, i have had doctrine classes, which i think are stupid also, but that's it. Most of my time being "religious" is goin to church, thinking, and looking in the Bible, and my mom and dad show me how to do what is right and they show me the ways of God. Christianity today has been distorted over the centuries. I, people i know, and friends would not consider me a religious fanatic. A religious fanatic would be on you like crazy and shovin the word down your throat w/o givin you a chance to breathe. I don't believe in telling people about God that way, like those television preachers! Darn them! But, I am just doing what i am told to by a much higher power. If u want to go to the afterlife u can. Try opening your mind to this like u did the others (ideas and religions). I'll be prayin for ya.

[american_bad_a$]

"Better to reign in hell, than to serve in heaven" -- John Milton, from 'Paradise Lost'

Do you guys agree?

john milton was not saying that as himself. i just did an in depth study on the book. a demon or more specifically satan said that in the book. john milton does not agree with that. he was saying, that is what satan is saying. satan is saying that to deceive people.

[Higher_Desire]

Why the hell are these old threads being dug up?


H-D :music:

[american_bad_a$]

i was bored, and i went looking, and i found these. just thought i'd put my :twocents: in

[Lechium]

john milton was not saying that as himself. i just did an in depth study on the book. a demon or more specifically satan said that in the book. john milton does not agree with that. he was saying, that is what satan is saying. satan is saying that to deceive people.
I never said that thet was his perspective, but it was himn who wrote it...
you dont have to nitpick at my old threast just to make yoursel feel better you know...

[RMadd]

"Better to reign in hell, than to serve in heaven" -- John Milton, from 'Paradise Lost'

Do you guys agree?
no

[american_bad_a$]

I never said that thet was his perspective, but it was himn who wrote it...
you dont have to nitpick at my old threast just to make yoursel feel better you know...

the way you stated the question made me think that you though milton intentionaly meant that as his personal statement.

nitpick at yur old threads?? ia m just puting in my :2cents: like what you do on boards.

[~alpha - melb]

existance sucks...

I reign in hell... that cunt hasn't been there yet.

God wants you dead anyway... Judgement day is on it's way.

where's that linda davis slut...?

that tomato needs an assfuck.


DIE OF CANCER YOU FUCKING APES... !! I hope your children die before they can reproduce...!!

[JulieCitySlicker]

Dang! Who wizzed in your cherrios :wtf:

[creedsister]

Dang! Who wizzed in your cherrios :wtf: Wizzed In Cherrios :D i dont think ive heared that one before HAHAHA Now Alpha
Dude Got up on the wrong fricking side of the bed thats Obvious