'Pope protesters' hijack airliner

[Chase]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5403976.stm

Nothing says that the Pope was wrong about associating Islam with violence like hijacking an airliner.

[metalchris25]

Oh, the irony. They sure know how to make a point. Not that all islamic people are like these guys.

[uncertaindrumer]

This would crack me up if it were not so sad.

"we are not a violent people! to demonstrate our outrage at this assertion, we will blow up churches, hijack airplanes, kill innocents, and in all other ways act with violence!"

[bilal]

a plane was hijacked to make a statement.....a guy gave up the rest of his lifetime to make just a single statement...... he did wrong thing.... he disturbed a lot of lives that day, he will be punished when he meets God Almighty.... althought the article latter on confuses ast to wehter this man is a muslim or Christian.... may be it would be better if you guys read the whole page before commenting anything..... mr.chase, i guess you havent read the whole article.....


i dont see in the media why there isnt any statement to clarify that POPE dont represents all Christians....i mean if that is true, why isnt this misconception clarified....... may be no one feels it necessary to do...... i hate to imagine how Christians would react if a similar dis honouring statements were made against JEsus Christ.... but let me clarify that muslims Lvoe Jessus Christ in the same way they love our Holy Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H.) ....i guess if a time like that ever comes, it would be Muslims sacrificing theri lives for the name of Jesus Christ....... but i pray that this time may never come.....

[Chase]

a plane was hijacked to make a statement.....a guy gave up the rest of his lifetime to make just a single statement...... he did wrong thing.... he disturbed a lot of lives that day, he will be punished when he meets God Almighty.... althought the article latter on confuses ast to wehter this man is a muslim or Christian.... may be it would be better if you guys read the whole page before commenting anything..... mr.chase, i guess you havent read the whole article.....


i dont see in the media why there isnt any statement to clarify that POPE dont represents all Christians....i mean if that is true, why isnt this misconception clarified....... may be no one feels it necessary to do...... i hate to imagine how Christians would react if a similar dis honouring statements were made against JEsus Christ.... but let me clarify that muslims Lvoe Jessus Christ in the same way they love our Holy Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H.) ....i guess if a time like that ever comes, it would be Muslims sacrificing theri lives for the name of Jesus Christ....... but i pray that this time may never come.....

I read the article and I implied that the guy is an idiot for protesting the Pope for what he said. It doesn't matter if he's Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, or Buddhist. Being offended by the Pope's words regarding Islam, and then acting them out in that fashion makes you an idiotic hypocrite.

And by the way... Muslim extremists say offensive things towards Christian constantly and I don't see Christians running around blowing things up and burning effagies... then following that with the great chant of "God is great!"

[bilal]

I read the article and I implied that the guy is an idiot for protesting the Pope for what he said. It doesn't matter if he's Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, or Buddhist.

then why did you write this in the begining of the thread?...here, let me quote you....Nothing says that the Pope was wrong about associating Islam with violence like hijacking an airliner.



Muslim extremists say offensive things towards Christian constantly and I don't see Christians running around blowing things up and burning effagies...


Chase, i have said it nuemerous times again and again, and i repeat once again that no matter what extremists from both relgions say to each other, we should not fall that low to start saying bad things about PRopeht Muhammad (P.B.U.H.) cause he has the same stauts in Islam as Jessus Christ have for Christians... Islamic extremists, who ever or wehre they are, have never quoted anything against Jesus Christ, as it is part of teh basic faith of Islam... and as i said earlier....muslims love Jesus Christ as much as they love Holy Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H.)...open up the Holy Qur'an, flip throurg some pages and u will surely come accross references to Jesus Christ, cause he is the most discussed personallity in holy Qur'an..... so dont compare POpe comments with any of the shitbag extremists........ i hope you get my simply point

[Chase]

then why did you write this in the begining of the thread?...here, let me quote you....






Chase, i have said it nuemerous times again and again, and i repeat once again that no matter what extremists from both relgions say to each other, we should not fall that low to start saying bad things about PRopeht Muhammad (P.B.U.H.) cause he has the same stauts in Islam as Jessus Christ have for Christians... Islamic extremists, who ever or wehre they are, have never quoted anything against Jesus Christ, as it is part of teh basic faith of Islam... and as i said earlier....muslims love Jesus Christ as much as they love Holy Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H.)...open up the Holy Qur'an, flip throurg some pages and u will surely come accross references to Jesus Christ, cause he is the most discussed personallity in holy Qur'an..... so dont compare POpe comments with any of the shitbag extremists........ i hope you get my simply point

If I flip through the Koran... there's a possibility that I may also find this:

"5.51" : O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for
friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them
for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the
unjust people.

... and I said what I said because it makes someone a hypocrite to protest what the Pope said... and then protest in a violent fashion.

[bilal]

If I flip through the Koran... there's a possibility that I may also find this:

"5.51" : O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for
friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them
for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the
unjust people.



mr. chase..... playing with no knowledge is as dangerous as giving a gun in a childs hand........ i will interpret the above Verse of Holy Qur'an so that may be you will understand what its about... although i can see that all your efforts are directed against Islam and trying to portray it the way you want it too..... but i will try to educate you based on my own feeble knowledge..... so help me God.....


this verse is one of many veses that tells Muslims conduct with the belvers of these two faiths and all needs to be seen in totallity and in combination to judge what Islam tells its followers about theri acts with Christians and Jews..... there are verses, which tells us that in times of peace, Muslims should have peaceful relations with Christians but i am sure those are not of itnerest to mr.chase......i will appeal to all who are reading this to read all my words so that maybe you can get the picture i want to show you people....

Unlike Bible, Holy Qur'an was revealed to humanity not in one go, but the verses were narated to Holy Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H.) by Gabriel gradully as the huge task of unfolding the relgion to the humanity was to be carried out ........ it all happened in 23 years...... Allah Almighty kept guiding the Holy Prophet (P.B.U.H.) by telling and guiding him all the way along..... or this huge change in the world could'nt have been possible in 100 life times....it happened in only 23 years....

when the Allah Almighty asked Holy Prophet (P.B.U.H.) to start narrating to people the message of Creator, there were, in broad terms, following people; Beleivers of old books and those who beleived in idols..... Holy Prophet (P.B.U.H.) at times prayed and treated those with old books with a rather tender treatment then idol worshipers, althought according to Islamic belives, those books are not in original form, and have been changed and rearraged till present day to carry onn theri own preffered ways, this tenderness of Holy Prophet (P.B.U.H.) was infact not in favour of Old book Worshipers like Jews and Christians as in that way they wont be getting the message of Allah Almighty at all....... unlike this , Holy Qur'an is preserved in its every bit of detail, not in text form but in the hearts of millions of muslims who have memorised it completely.......

this Verse was narrated to Holy Prophet (P.B.U.H.) at the end of very first war that Muslims had with the opposing relgions...in which after the victory, many people of the opposing relgions convetted to Islam but many of them started mischeiveous acts agaisnt Islam very soon........

right from the begining, the followers of Chirstianity and Jews, as their faith was challenged, they became hostile to the people converting to Islam, and my freind ,the Chirstianity and Jewsih of those times are not like the present times, you will agree, that lot has changed since then, .......... Islam was to be spread and at many occasions, conspiracies were being netted against Islam by the followers of other faith, to defend their faith.... so in this verse, Allah Almighty has asked Muslims not to make freind with these relgions cause all they want is for Muslims to let go of theri religion...... it was an instruction to the muslims of old times so that the relgion should spread as it is desired ....


one of the brilliant proof, of the wonders and Truthfulness of Holy Quran can be seen from its every verse...... and this particular verse shines no less...... i just appeal any one who is reading me at the moment to try to be as independend and prudent as it can be...... and then give a look to the world at the moment.... try to cover all the circumstances of religions around the globe and then read this Verse of Holy Quran again.... you will see that no matter what the differences may be in relgious belives between Jews and Christianity, they will always be as one when they have to stand against Islam..... see the evidence of it from the Israel Palestine conflict..... and the unprecedented support of USA to Israel, ....... you will see both these faith as one when it stands against Islam...... this is the natural tendency that is there since the time this VErse was first narrated and will remain .......and this makes this Verse of Holy Quran timeless and wonderfully true..............

this Holy Vesrse , in no way, is giving any ideal of violance, as Mr Chase tried to portray it, and i will request Mr.chase to act more responsible next time...... cause i myself aint a good religious person, and my not be able to help the readers from getting mis-informattion..... as this wild frenzy of mis quotations has brought enough hatred and mis guidance to the world already...

[Ana4Stapp]

Well...Chase can say anything now...but he and others posted here in this thread assuming that the idiot guy WAS A MUSLIM...its obvious ..so the honest thing to do was to at least recognize it...

[Chase]

Well...Chase can say anything now...but he and others posted here in this thread assuming that the idiot guy WAS A MUSLIM...its obvious ..so the honest thing to do was to at least recognize it...

I know how to read and if the story says that the guy was a Christian convert... then that's what he was. I never said otherwise.

[uncertaindrumer]

First, Christians DON'T go blowing things up for the most part. We are attacked mercilessly all the time, without giving violent reactions. In the world we live in, attacking Christianity is fine--it happens constantly.

You can equivocate the words of your own book all you want, but it is a historical fact that Islam has been and still is aggressive and violent, period. They were created by Mohammed, and ever since, they have been attacking other people. Somehow, in the twisted up world we live in, people try to deny this (the ultimate irony is that Christians are persecuted for the Crusades, when these were DEFENSIVE wars against a belligerent enemy, Islam). Islam concquered the Middle East, and attempted to conquere Europe, eventually being beaten out by valiant Spanish resistance after 700 years of war.

You will never convince me these are the acts of a peaceful people. There are certainly exceptions to the rule, but as a whole, Islam is usually extremely agressive.

By the same token, there are exceptions to Christianity's basic notion of peace. But most of the wars Christian nations have been involved in were political, not religious. Those wars which were religious were almost always entirely defensive. And those that weren't either had justification or are to be apologized for. But these are the exception and not the rule.

they will always be as one when they have to stand against Islam

This just isn't true. Though currently, the SECULAR powers of the U.S. and other countries are allied with Jewish states, this not only has nothing to do with Christianity, but it is only current.

In distant times, Jews were almost always more friendly to Muslims than Christians. Indeed, a large part of the impetus behind the Spanish inquisition was due to the fact that Jews, posing as Christians, would infiltrate and subvert Spain's attempts to defeat the Moors.

The idea that Jews have always sided with Christianity against Islam is laughable at best.

I know how to read and if the story says that the guy was a Christian convert... then that's what he was. I never said otherwise.

Immaterial. Regardless of this one incident, there have been dozens of angry, violent, destructive protests against the Pope's now seemingly proven words.

I am not attempting to offend those who are not violent yet hold Islam to be their religion. I'd much rather see an Islamic man of faith than an agnostic or atheist. Still, the fact remains that there are inescapable amounts of violence continually perpetrated by Muslims, and it was not specific believers to whom the Pope was referring, but ratehr this general attitude.

[bilal]

thanks for your reply Uncertaindrummer.......i appreciate that.....

First, Christians DON'T go blowing things up for the most part. We are attacked mercilessly all the time, without giving violent reactions. In the world we live in, attacking Christianity is fine--it happens constantly.


in my post, i have said one thing that you didnt addressed was that i belive that Christianity is not the same as it was some 100 years ago..... i know that Christianity has settled down to be a very peacefull relgion... and i respect that with honest feelings....... you are saying here that Christians are attacked and thats OK.... how would you justify that?... .i mean, as far as i am seeing, hopefully not being biased here, killing Muslims is like killing boars and pigs..... i mean, 20,000+ were recently masaccred in lebnon by Israeli army..... not to foget that countless are obducted by Isreal every month too..... do you honestly believe that even one of them massacred is gona get justice..... or any one even gona condem that.... you might say Hizbollah is responsible....... than my friend... its always the same accusation with all freedom movements ever... when Irisih people were slaughtered by the kings army in Ireland. the IRA was blammed for playing militancy against British rule and hence inviting the kings army to commit such acts.... but to me, Militancy comes only when people are oppresed on theri own lands.... to me Muslim blood spilling in Palestine and iraq at the moment will nevver get justice... .and please do justify your claim of killing of Christinas...... just for enhancing my knowlodge and perspective..... if you are referring to the killings by Alqaeda, then i can say that 90% people killed by such bogus organisations are muslim casualties.......recently MR.Chase posted an statistics of kilings by Alqaeda... .and it clearly shows that the terror that you Government speaks of to win your concent for all the kilings it do, saying it necessary for libration and all this shit..... i mean, your army end up killing 100 times more muslim people than Shtty Alqeda has every done .....




You can equivocate the words of your own book all you want, but it is a historical fact that Islam has been and still is aggressive and violent, period. They were created by Mohammed, and ever since, they have been attacking other people. Somehow, in the twisted up world we live in, people try to deny this (the ultimate irony is that Christians are persecuted for the Crusades, when these were DEFENSIVE wars against a belligerent enemy, Islam). Islam concquered the Middle East, and attempted to conquere Europe, eventually being beaten out by valiant Spanish resistance after 700 years of war.



here Uncertain dude, you are just reserving the right of DEFENCE to your own self and denying the same privaldge to Islam..... in my earlier post, i tried to be as much considerate and i said that Christinaity followers only fought to defend theri own belives.... i wish you could have appreciated that and i if you have read my earlier post correctly, you wouldnt have posted this all... .but this is very very biased of you to just reserve the right to feelings like Patriotism, defence and all just for your own sake and not to a a member of another religion.......

you see Islam as Violent..... i ask you and leave you with just one question.... and one question only.... you mentioned Crusades.... but you havent mentioned the massacre of Muslims behind the single word "Crusade"...i ask you... give me one incident from history of Islam where a massacre of civilians was done in the name of religion.... Uncertain Bro... you mentioned Spain a lot and 700 years of fight of Christains and jews.... iask you one question Unncertain bro... and that is if Muslims occupied 700 years over spain and if Islam was hostile to Christianity or Jewism....why were all the Churches and Jews places were still intact and functioning during these 700 years of Muslim rule...... i would appreciate your answeres for these facts that i ve spoken here for my own education and enhancedment of perspective......


i should again mention my views here about Christinanity that i respect the way Christianity is being practiced at the moment..... and i respect the peace and tranquility i see behind the mention of the term.... but you see, Muslims are fighting theri own fight to oppression and Islam has been in peace for a lot of years but for in places where muslims are subjected to mis treatment and occupations by invading armies........ history dates back a lot more than just past 20 years...... i will hate to cite here from history, the times of early Chirstianity, and the slaughter of Jews by the church....and the biased and unjustified crimes in the name of Christianity commited against women and members of other relgion......... the history of early churches of France .........


You will never convince me these are the acts of a peaceful people. There are certainly exceptions to the rule, but as a whole, Islam is usually extremely agressive.


you know something here bro, i dont want you to view Islam as anything less than agressive.... it will never be.... every succesful mechanisms, including those of nature has theri own defencsive sides too..... its a pitty that many powers in the world has done its best to distort the view of Islam for the sake of its own benefits..... a lot of therapy has been done and results are being showed now in the biased and wrong oppions of people, from freedom fighters to terrorsts, and then from terrorsits to ISLAMIC terrorist.... its all a transition that media has feeded in you.....the threat of your security is blamed on the very existance of Islam ....where as the crimes agains Islam till todate are hidden and obsucured by labbleing JIHAD as a war againt INFIDLEs... this bullshit has surely been sticking on lots of walls lately....

By the same token, there are exceptions to Christianity's basic notion of peace. But most of the wars Christian nations have been involved in were political, not religious. Those wars which were religious were almost always entirely defensive. And those that weren't either had justification or are to be apologized for. But these are the exception and not the rule.

so were the wars of Islam... Islamic WArs were fought in battle grounds and not in cities.......and if you are of the opinon that Islam spread due to sword... then myfreind if i show you a sword, will you accept Islam with all your due belif and purity of heart.... you see, human beings dont act this way... there is a lot more behind the picture....you can see it if only you try, or that if you dare.......



This just isn't true. Though currently, the SECULAR powers of the U.S. and other countries are allied with Jewish states, this not only has nothing to do with Christianity, but it is only current.


Its not current my freind....... if you fail to see the biased favours that are being granted to Israel by USA then may be this all discussion with you is useless.... please do consider this that no matter what religoion you have .... if you are being occupied and are being disgraced for being of other religion, then will you accept the opppresion or will you fight against it.....i ask you one more question.... why is it that all the dis-rest among all the muslim world , which is due to one problem and thats the palestinian issue, is being addressed with bringing war to that part of muslim world and NOT by solving the palestinian issue.. .when the solution to the palestinian issue is the most obvious... OCCUPATION MUST GO!.... but that is'nt done... the mother of all pain is kept alive and fresh... while if any other body part of the muslim nation shows any sign of revolt, then it is dealt with power and the uprising is termed as terrorism... and all this is being done by the unjustified biased command of USA... please uncertaindrummer dude, i plead you to provide me with some RATIONAL answere for this ...... i really need to know why......





Immaterial. Regardless of this one incident, there have been dozens of angry, violent, destructive protests against the Pope's now seemingly proven words. .

man, if someone diss Jesus Christ like that, i would'nt be surpirsed if Crusie missiles arent being landing on that land.....dont be biased here again...... we have the same right to protect our sainity and freedom as much as you do....... its time you try to seek peaceuful coexistance and not violent accusations...... NOT ALL TERRORISM NEEDS BULLETS, AT TIMES WORDS ARE MORE DANGUROUS THAN BULLET.......AND END UP KILLING MORE ..... THIS IS ALSO A FORM OF TERRROISM COMMITED BY WORDS


uncertain bro..i again thank you for your earlier reply.... but i am lossing more and more hope of getting any unbiased and sympathetic discussion here...... i know i could have replied better... but i being here for a while, i know whats coming from an average mind...i hope you will bring something new.....my only regret from the west is its conquest for power and control over muslim world.....

[RalphyS]

I'd much rather see an Islamic man of faith than an agnostic or atheist.

This is what me as an atheist struck in your speech. You state that islam is a religion of violence throughout the centuries and that muslims are nowadays those who are doing the bombing etcetera, yet you feel the need to mention this statement above. I haven't seen bombings by 'fundamental' atheists yet, it is hard to kill in the name of 'no god', but somehow you see atheism as more of a thread than another 'false' religion. Perhaps deep down the possibility that we might be right scares you more than the fear of being killed by a bomb:confused:

[uncertaindrumer]

This is what me as an atheist struck in your speech. You state that islam is a religion of violence throughout the centuries and that muslims are nowadays those who are doing the bombing etcetera, yet you feel the need to mention this statement above. I haven't seen bombings by 'fundamental' atheists yet, it is hard to kill in the name of 'no god', but somehow you see atheism as more of a thread than another 'false' religion. Perhaps deep down the possibility that we might be right scares you more than the fear of being killed by a bomb:confused:

You are reading too much into it. I'd rather a man of faith than a man without because you can't reason with an atheist. When you start with a common belief--God--you can then argue based on morals. I can tell a muslim he is wrong, and he might not agree with me, but he will understand what I mean.

If you tell an atheist something he does is wrong, it won't make any sense to him, because there *isn't* any right or wrong for an atheist.

As for your cute little statement about me being afraid you are right, that brings up an interesting point... I'm *not* afraid you are right. If you are--for argument's sake--absolutely nothing bad will happen to me because of this. I will die a meaningless death after living a meaningless life, just like the rest of you. But if *I'm* right... well you are screwed then, aren't you?

[uncertaindrumer]

man, if someone diss Jesus Christ like that, i would'nt be surpirsed if Crusie missiles arent being landing on that land.....dont be biased here again...... we have the same right to protect our sainity and freedom as much as you do....... its time you try to seek peaceuful coexistance and not violent accusations......

I could not possibly respond to all of your post but this stuck out. Do you have any clue how often Jesus is insulted and ridiculed? How often He is made fun of on TV, in comics, movies, etc.? ALL THE TIME. And most of it goes without notice because Christians, for the most part, DO NOT RESPOND the way Muslims do.

It is socially acceptable to mock Jesus, it happens constantly. But we don't go blow people up because of it. Muslims, on the other hand...

The only other thing I would note is that when you mentioned the Crusades, you menioned certain slaughters. War is Hell. No way around that. No matter what war you are fighting, there will be excesses, atrocities, etc. These should be condemned. But imperfect men doing imperfect thigns does not make the principle wrong, and the principle was that Islam had conquered the Hold Land, and the Christians were trying to get it back.

You say not to deny you the right to defend yourselves. Well, tell me when I have done that? Islam was not "defending" itself by overrunning the Middle East, or attempting to conquer Spain, or moving into France. Those were purely aggressive wars. And if you want to claim that Muslims did not persecute Christians, then you are nuts. They absolutely did, and still do.

[RalphyS]

You are reading too much into it. I'd rather a man of faith than a man without because you can't reason with an atheist. When you start with a common belief--God--you can then argue based on morals. I can tell a muslim he is wrong, and he might not agree with me, but he will understand what I mean.

If you tell an atheist something he does is wrong, it won't make any sense to him, because there *isn't* any right or wrong for an atheist.


OK, we've had this debate and now let's assume for arguement's sake, you are right and morals can only come from god. You yourself stated in our debate that I had a moral sense it was proving your point it stated, so if I am an atheist and I'm only wrong about where my morals come from, but otherwise I do have a moral sense as you yourself stated, godgiven even, how would I not know the difference between right and wrong. I'm only mistaken in where I got that sense of right and wrong from, so that shouldn't stand in the way of the debate.

As for your cute little statement about me being afraid you are right, that brings up an interesting point... I'm *not* afraid you are right. If you are--for argument's sake--absolutely nothing bad will happen to me because of this. I will die a meaningless death after living a meaningless life, just like the rest of you. But if *I'm* right... well you are screwed then, aren't you?

Wow, Pascal's wager, never heard that before. Well maybe we'll both meetup in the islam hell or maybe I stand a better chance than you think, read this piece by Richard Carrier:

The End of Pascal's Wager: Only Nontheists Go to Heaven (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/heaven.html)

[bilal]

I could not possibly respond to all of your post but this stuck out. Do you have any clue how often Jesus is insulted and ridiculed? How often He is made fun of on TV, in comics, movies, etc.? ALL THE TIME. And most of it goes without notice because Christians, for the most part, DO NOT RESPOND the way Muslims do.

It is socially acceptable to mock Jesus, it happens constantly. But we don't go blow people up because of it. Muslims, on the other hand...



you are right about the fun that people make by taking the figure of Juessu... and if you have studied Islam, you should know that muslims can never approve that ..... cause for us,Jesus is the prophet of Islam......... and so is Muhammad (P.B.U.H.), but the fact that no muslim will ever make fun of Jesus but only the western media do it............ and in all the recent acts of such mischeveous acts against the life of Holy Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H.) were pure blasmphemey.....and as I said before.... terrrorism not only requires bullets, but WORDS and at times is more dangerous than bullets....and qualifies as terrorism........


But imperfect men doing imperfect thigns does not make the principle wrong,


that is very right and wise thing to say.. i realy liked it... and that was in a way what i was trying to say myself.... cause man is imperfect, but religion is made by GOD ALMIGHTY....for me Bible was a book of GOD ALMIGHTY and then Holy QURAN was sent by GOD ALMIGHTY.....man makes mistakes exercising it, but i will never agree with anything you accuse over my relgion.....



The only other thing I would note is that when you mentioned the Crusades, you menioned certain slaughters. War is Hell. No way around that. No matter what war you are fighting, there will be excesses, atrocities, etc. These should be condemned. ..................and the principle was that Islam had conquered the Hold Land, and the Christians were trying to get it back.


and Christians did got it back...... and on principal, i respect that.....even i said it before that there is a defence mechanism to all relgions, natural systems, animals...all.... i respect that.... .the fact that i was really trying to persuade here was that from your and many other people post here, one thing was commonly stressed by all of you, and that Islam is a violent religon and muslims are free in killing Chiristians.... i mean, apart from battle ground, i asked you to bring any instance from history which has led you to belive in it..... for me, why most Christains believe Islam to be violent is from the fact that Islam came 500 years after Christianity and challanged it altogether.... and both faiths have fought battles over many years.....you see, when Islam was spreading, Spain Christian power was also attacking Islamic empires too supress it....or get back initial lands... you see, its wrong to say who attacked who or who was just defending... but yes, i am very unaware of the history of SPAIN in its details....i guess i should first explore and read it carefully before i jump in to conclusions......


They absolutely did, and still do.

uncertain bro...do u think people of Palestine or Kashmire or Chechneya, at the present times, aare being executted or humiliated because they are someone else than muslims?.......they are being denied rights to their own land for anything else but being muslims?... Bosnia and Chechnian massacres are not old, just some 20 years back, maybe you and i both were alive than too....... you said muslims still kill Christians....you said it before too, i wasnt just sure what was the reson or event or anything behind your opinion in that.......are you sure about it or is it just some media misstatements that has led you to belive this...... muslim people are portrayed as angry man who are just chanting slogans and all... .but you never see why they are doing that.... Terms like Islamic militants or now its newer version Islamic Terrorist (Casue soem people started to say that militancy is a positive human emotion) and some GOD ALMIGHTY knows where extremist ...... i was just hoping that maybe my insight on why people see it that way can be enhanced.....i needed to know why i am being seen as something that i am not.....

[bilal]

*

[RalphyS]

pure blasmphemey

Blasphemy is a victimless crime.

As for Christianity being a religion of peace as opposed to islam, let's say that Christianity has an advantage of a few centuries timewise, and it took an enlightenement in the western world for it to become more moderate and less violent, but it sure had his periods of abundant violence, the inquisition just springs to mind, but there are many more examples.

[uncertaindrumer]

OK, we've had this debate and now let's assume for arguement's sake, you are right and morals can only come from god. You yourself stated in our debate that I had a moral sense it was proving your point it stated, so if I am an atheist and I'm only wrong about where my morals come from, but otherwise I do have a moral sense as you yourself stated, godgiven even, how would I not know the difference between right and wrong. I'm only mistaken in where I got that sense of right and wrong from, so that shouldn't stand in the way of the debate.

I don't really want to get into this but the basic thing here is that you do have a moral sense, but if you choose not to be lieve in God, you won't heed it, you will ignore it, you will eventually be able to completely forget it.



Wow, Pascal's wager, never heard that before. Well maybe we'll both meetup in the islam hell or maybe I stand a better chance than you think, read this piece by Richard Carrier:


I'm sure you have heard it many times, but it is still true.

And that article was nonsense. It makes dozens of assumptions that are simply not true, or have no basis at all. This atheist idea of religion that "God is sitting up in Heaven picking who who goes where" is simplistic if given the benefit of the doubt, but it is really just downright wrong.

As for Christianity being a religion of peace as opposed to islam, let's say that Christianity has an advantage of a few centuries timewise, and it took an enlightenement in the western world for it to become more moderate and less violent, but it sure had his periods of abundant violence, the inquisition just springs to mind, but there are many more examples.

First off, I am not begging for a fight on the inquisitions but they are not the Hellish charicatures often made out to be in today's world. However, there were clearly abuses there, as well as throughout history.

Christianity does not make war or torture people or blaspheme, but Christians sometimes do. One of the most basic facets of Christianity is that men are imperfect, and while we strive to overcome this, there will always be mistakes.

The point here, is this: When Christians blow things up, create war, unjustly persecute, etc. (which is rare enough as it is, by the way, considering the time and size of Christianity's existance), they can be and are condemned by Christianity's own morals.

When Muslims commit the same acts, they aren't condemned morally. Mohammed began the whole religion on the principle of conquering. Pre-emptively striking other people is how the religion was BORN. When Islam is aggressive, takes lands it does not own, attempts to control the world, etc., it is the very mission Mohammed began 1300+ years ago.

That is the difference. Islam has generally encouraged violence and aggression. Christianity condemns it, even if Christians don't always fall in line.

[RalphyS]

In the bible there are stories were god kills almost the entire world population (humans and animals ; the flood), strikes down cities (Sodom and Gomorra), kills the firstborns of an entire nation (the last plague of Egypt) and excuse me, I'm not that literate of the bible, but isn't there also something in there where he tells the Isrealites to rape the women and kill the children of the enemy. Wouldn't this constitute violence in the name of god?

The history of Christianity isn't that violent free, if you look through objective morality we could probably call the god of the OT the biggest mass murderer ever. Yet, Christianity claims to be a religion of peace and god is all good.

I do not believe the stories of the bibles to be more than myth, but if you're claiming the moral high ground for your religion, you first have to explain these things.

[bilal]

The point here, is this: When Christians blow things up, create war, unjustly persecute, etc. (which is rare enough as it is, by the way, considering the time and size of Christianity's existance), they can be and are condemned by Christianity's own morals.

When Muslims commit the same acts, they aren't condemned morally. Mohammed began the whole religion on the principle of conquering. Pre-emptively striking other people is how the religion was BORN. When Islam is aggressive, takes lands it does not own, attempts to control the world, etc., it is the very mission Mohammed began 1300+ years ago.



uncertain bro.... when i said that i respect Christianity as it exist at the moment..is because that Christinaity has evolved and changed a lot since its begining.. it means, that man of latter generations have changed it, by poiniting out defects and mistakes of previous generations... and have finally settled to be peacefull...i never wanted to go into relgious blaming here, keeping this thread to be political rahter than relgious... islam on the other hand is the same as it was 1400+ years ago, HOLY QURAN is the same as it was with the first copy of it..... and no one has ever find any defect in it.... not in any pricipal, not in any scientific claim.......as i said before and you admitted your self, man makes mistakes, but God Almighty dont.........may be you should'nt talk about history....and should stick to the current situations as this may as well favour you more than me...if you go down the history, you wont really like to admit a lot of things.....



you think that islam spread by attacking other people, my dear bro, no relgion can spread if you take someone's land.... the thing that you have failed or conciously keepin your self from accepting is that Islam spread when whole NATIONS CONVERTED to islam..... otherwise do u honestly think than any religion could last any longer than few eyars if it was to spread by means of force... if that is true, may be whole of palesine people will become jewish in few years if let the occupation go any further........ and as i said before, you are not in the postion to discuss history, you better stick with the current situation........

That is the difference. Islam has generally encouraged violence and aggression. Christianity condemns it, even if Christians don't always fall in line.


you mentioned 700 years of Islamic rule over spain , yet you failed to acknoledge that during those year, Christinaity and jewsih remaiend in tact...... not only Spain, whole of Jerusalem was in Islamic rule during that era, my good freind...if it was Islam who advocated violence, do u honestly belive that a single church or Jew place of worship would have be intact after 7 centuries..... atleast you should have acknoledged that......... i never want to insult peaceful Christians of today for the violance and bloodshed of their ancestors, but you dont seem to understand that at all....i have nothing to hide...and you have nothing to prove

[RalphyS]

'I've never seen faith move a mountain, but I've seen what it does to skyscrapers' - Stacey Melissa

[uncertaindrumer]

'I've never seen faith move a mountain, but I've seen what it does to skyscrapers' - Stacey Melissa

Indeed, misplaced fervor is a powerful thing indeed.

But for all the deathds caused by 9-11, more have been caused by the ultra secular need for revenge.

But still, stupid people (religious or not) doing stupid things is nothing new. The terrible dictators of the 20th century (who caused tens of millions of deaths) were mostly atheistic. Once again, religious beings can declare Muslim extremism wrong. You can't even declare Stalin or Hitler wrong. In fact the very fact that you imply what the Muslims did on Septemeber 11th was bad is showing the fact that you do appeal to a sense of right and wrong.

Not that I really want to get this all started again. Just pointing a few things out.

[uncertaindrumer]

In the bible there are stories were god kills almost the entire world population (humans and animals ; the flood), strikes down cities (Sodom and Gomorra), kills the firstborns of an entire nation (the last plague of Egypt) and excuse me, I'm not that literate of the bible, but isn't there also something in there where he tells the Isrealites to rape the women and kill the children of the enemy. Wouldn't this constitute violence in the name of god?

I do not know that last thing you are talking about, so I can't comment on it. As for God punishing humanity--well, He has every right to do so. God is an infinite Being. Any transgression, no matter how small, against His will, any deviation from His nature, is an offense against an infinite Being, and thus requires infinite punishment. So in reality, He has been indeed merciful, considering the actions of such nations as Sodom were anything but "small transgressions".

The history of Christianity isn't that violent free, if you look through objective morality we could probably call the god of the OT the biggest mass murderer ever.

He wasn't murdering anyone. He was providing justice. The enemies of God were punished. It is pretty simple.

Of course... you never even showed why murder is wrong... so...

Yet, Christianity claims to be a religion of peace and god is all good.

He is. By definition, God is Good. And Christianity teaches to turn the other cheek. What more can one ask for? Really. Christians aren't perfect, but they try.

[RalphyS]

But for all the deathds caused by 9-11, more have been caused by the ultra secular need for revenge.

But still, stupid people (religious or not) doing stupid things is nothing new. The terrible dictators of the 20th century (who caused tens of millions of deaths) were mostly atheistic. Once again, religious beings can declare Muslim extremism wrong. You can't even declare Stalin or Hitler wrong. In fact the very fact that you imply what the Muslims did on Septemeber 11th was bad is showing the fact that you do appeal to a sense of right and wrong.

Not that I really want to get this all started again. Just pointing a few things out.

I never said I didn't appeal to a sense of right and wrong, it is you who finds it necessary to proclaim that I cannot appeal to that, because I do not believe in god, in spite of, what I thought was agreement to disagree were we get our morals from.

And although Stalin and Mao might be atheistic, there crimes weren't made in the name of atheism, but in the name of communism, which considered religion as an opposing worldview, Hitler btw was a self-proclaimed Christian, but I wouldn't consider his crimes Christian crimes. although the hate for judaism has some foundation in the bible, especially in the gospel of John as I've been told.

I would not consider a crime by a religious person a religious crime, unless it's obvious the perpetrator did it 'in the name of their god' or 'for their religion or against another'.

[RalphyS]

I do not know that last thing you are talking about, so I can't comment on it. As for God punishing humanity--well, He has every right to do so. God is an infinite Being. Any transgression, no matter how small, against His will, any deviation from His nature, is an offense against an infinite Being, and thus requires infinite punishment. So in reality, He has been indeed merciful, considering the actions of such nations as Sodom were anything but "small transgressions".



He wasn't murdering anyone. He was providing justice. The enemies of God were punished. It is pretty simple.

Of course... you never even showed why murder is wrong... so...



He is. By definition, God is Good. And Christianity teaches to turn the other cheek. What more can one ask for? Really. Christians aren't perfect, but they try.

Well why has He forsaken us than? In the OT god seemed to be more for a hands-on approach, but since his demise and resurrection he hasn't been that open and obvious about punishing the crimes of Sodom and Gomorra, which are all around us at the present time?

Btw you obviously do not think that hurting or killing animals is 'wrong' in your absolute morality, since the flood obviously killed all animals (except 2 of every species ofcourse). Or are all animals also born as sinners?

As for the Isrealites-thing that I thought of, Wikipedia describes it as follows:
In the Book of Numbers
The people of Midian together with Moab began to interact with the people of Israel, including sexual relationships: "Israel was staying in Shittim when the people began to behave immorally with the Moabite girls. [The girls] invited the people to their religious sacrifices, and the people ate and worshipped the [Moabite] gods." Numbers 25:1-2 [2]

For these alleged transgrations, the Midianties were attacked by Moses and his followers (Num 31:1-54). When Moses learns that some of the Midianties are left alive (Num 31:15), he orders all males and non-virgin females killed, and all the virgin females to be taken captive (Num 31:17,18). Of the 32,000 virgins taken captive, 32 were sacrificed to God (Num 31:40). The rest of the virgins were considered booty (Num 31:32-35), for what purpose is not stated, but generally presumed to be sexual slavery.

For the alleged transgration of not initially killing all the males and non-virgins females, God brought a plague upon the people of Moses (Num 31:16)

And this link (http://www.slate.com/id/2146473/?nav=navoa) explains why some might consider it (subjectively) wrong :rolleyes: