Most in U.S. Favor Death if Saddam Is Convicted

[Chase]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,187215,00.html

WASHINGTON — Most people in the United States want Saddam Hussein to hang if he's convicted at his trial, a view not shared by some longtime American allies, according to AP-Ipsos polling.

In eight other countries, where the death penalty mostly has been abolished, the poll found that people there prefer that the former Iraqi leader spend the rest of his life in prison. The countries are Britain, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Mexico, South Korea and Spain.

Similar, but less dramatic, disparities were found when U.S. attitudes were compared with the eight countries on whether Saddam is getting a fair trial and whether Iraqis are better off since he was driven from office in a U.S.-led invasion nearly three years ago.

Saddam, who was captured nine months after the invasion, and seven co-defendants are being tried on charges of carrying out torture, illegal arrests and executions. They face death by hanging if convicted.

Almost six in 10 in the U.S., 57 percent, said Saddam should be executed if he's convicted in the trial now in its fifth month in Baghdad.

"If he truly destroyed as many lives as they say he did, then he doesn't deserve to live," said Craig Larson, a military retiree who lives in Chesapeake, Va.

The death penalty has been abolished in seven of the nine countries polled. South Korea has talked about abolishing it. In the United States, where 1,012 have been executed over the past 28 years and at least 3,300 more are on death row, public support remains strong for state-sanctioned executions.

A study by Amnesty International found that more than nine of the 10 executions worldwide in 2004 were carried out in the United States, China, Iran and Vietnam.

Public support for sending Saddam to prison for life was strongest in Spain and Italy, where seven in 10 favored a life sentence over death. A similar sentiment was expressed in Germany, where residents are still sensitive to the violence of the Nazis and Adolph Hitler during World War II.

"I hope that [Saddam] will be not sentenced to death," said Giovanna Cippitello, sitting on a wall near the Pantheon in Rome, "but that he is made into a living example for other dictators around the world."

In the United States, the survey found more than one-third favoring life in prison for Saddam if he is convicted.

"I am not one for putting people to death," said Molly Gearin of Bullhead City, Ariz. "I'm not God."

The poll found 73 percent of those surveyed in the United States saying Saddam is getting a fair trial.

Many in the other countries surveyed aren't so sure. A third or less of the people in Mexico, Spain and South Korea say Saddam is getting a fair trial. Less than half in France say he is getting a fair shake.

"The trial is not fair," said Evelyne Jacotot, 56, a seller of rare stamps in Paris. "We're judging him little by little, for each act he's committed."

The polling also found that two-thirds of the people in the U.S. were convinced that Iraqis are better off now than they were under Saddam — a higher percentage than in the other countries polled.

People in Mexico, South Korea and Spain were far more inclined to say Iraqis are doing worse. In Germany and France — two countries that strongly opposed the U.S. invasion of Iraq — people were about evenly divided on that question.

Residents of Britain, Italy and Canada — while not as optimistic as people in the United States — were more likely to say Iraqis are better off now than they were under Saddam than to say they are "worse off." Britain and Italy have been among the strongest allies of U.S. Iraq policy.

The AP-Ipsos Poll interviewed 1,600 people in Mexico and about 1,000 adults in each of the other eight countries. The surveys were conducted from Feb. 10-19 and had a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 2.5 percentage points in Mexico and 3 percentage points in the others.

[Ana4Stapp]

Well...I think he must to be condemned by the justice to pay for all of his cruel acts...but I dont think about the death penalty as a solution...

and for the poll in countries you mentioned Im surprised that you dont add Brazil as a country that has people who supported Saddam governement since I live here...lol

[Chase]

Well...I think he must to be condemned by the justice to pay for all of his cruel acts...but I dont think about the death penalty as a solution...

and for the poll in countries you mentioned Im surprised that you dont add Brazil as a country that has people who supported Saddam governement...

Good deal for Hussein then. Gets to brutally execute thousands of his own people and only gets life... which will most likely include 3 meals a deal, a roof over his head, and some showers. A little better than what those victims had. You know, the ones who were all thrown into one giant hole in the ground and were stacked on top of each other while there family members at home had no idea where they were. I don't know if there is punishment great enough for people like this. I do believe that the Iraqis should convict him and execute him.

[Ana4Stapp]

Good deal for Hussein then. Gets to brutally execute thousands of his own people and only gets life... which will most likely include 3 meals a deal, a roof over his head, and some showers. A little better than what those victims had. You know, the ones who were all thrown into one giant hole in the ground and were stacked on top of each other while there family members at home had no idea where they were. I don't know if there is punishment great enough for people like this. I do believe that the Iraqis should convict him and execute him.

Chase!!!!!

Jesus ...are you advocating death penalty as the solution?????? I mean you dont believe in justice????? Only in wars/death/executions??? Didnt you say to me that you were a pacifist? :confused:

And dont you think that killing him...he wont pay for all the things he did? I mean like Milosevic who died WITHOUT paying for his cruel acts ?????
I chose to see all this kind of people in jail for years and years paying for the cruelty they commited...

[Chase]

Chase!!!!!

Jesus ...are you advocating death penalty as the solution?????? I mean you dont believe in justice????? Only in wars/death/executions??? Didnt you say to me that you were a pacifist? :confused:

And dont you think that killing him...he wont pay for all the things he did? I mean like Milosevic who died WITHOUT paying for his cruel acts ?????
I chose to see all this kind of people in jail for years and years paying for the cruelty they commited...

Yes I am advocating the death sentence for a man who enjoyed killing thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians. This man tortured, raped, and murdered. The majority of Iraqis want to see this man executed because it'll provide them with closure and a bit of justice. Someone who has killed at that magnitude does not deserve to live the rest of his life being fed, housed, and bathed by the same people who he tortured, raped, and murdered.

[Chase]

*Double Post*

[facelessmike]

Let him die! Think he'd let you live? I am surprised there are only 2/3 in favor. Enough time and money is being wasted on him for this trial.

[Ana4Stapp]

Yes I am advocating the death sentence for a man who enjoyed killing thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians. This man tortured, raped, and murdered. The majority of Iraqis want to see this man executed because it'll provide them with closure and a bit of justice. Someone who has killed at that magnitude does not deserve to live the rest of his life being fed, housed, and bathed by the same people who he tortured, raped, and murdered.


So you dont believe in justice? Is this your point?

[Chase]

So you dont believe in justice? Is this your point?

Justice? Justice is convicting this man of the genocide that he committed and carrying out whatever punishment the Iraqis want. In this case, they've said that if convicted, Saddam Hussein will be executed. If you're advocating that the Iraqis don't follow through with their judicial beliefs, then it is you who is not believing in justice.

[Ana4Stapp]

Justice? Justice is convicting this man of the genocide that he committed and carrying out whatever punishment the Iraqis want. In this case, they've said that if convicted, Saddam Hussein will be executed. If you're advocating that the Iraqis don't follow through with their judicial beliefs, then it is you who is not believing in justice.

If he dies he wont suffer and pay for his crimes;...why cant you see that???

And are you advocating the use of more violence to respond to his violence??? :eek:

[Chase]

If he dies he wont suffer and pay for his crimes;...why cant you see that???

And are you advocating the use of more violence to respond to his violence??? :eek:

Here's what you don't understand. The majority of Iraqis see Saddam Hussein's execution as justice. If they didn't want him executed they would've sent him to the Hague. And what does this mean: "If he dies he wont suffer and pay for his crimes?" Everybody dies... so I don't know what you're trying to imply. In the Arab world, executions are used as a means for carrying out justice... just because you don't think that it's justified to execute a man who's responsible for the brutal murders of thousands of innocent people does not mean that they can't have a different interpretation of what justice is. They want him to die... and I happen to support their position. Saddam Hussein executed innocent men, women, and children... and you're telling me that that's not enough justification for him to meet that same fate. If anything, he's going to die a more peaceful death (regardless of whether or not he's executed or a guy who dies in prison).

If your government was responsible for the violent murder of your family members, you would rather have that government continue its acts instead of having someone end that regimes violence towards innocent civilians? I mean, you're essentially telling me that going war against Adolf Hitler was wrong.

[Ana4Stapp]

Here's what you don't understand. The majority of Iraqis see Saddam Hussein's execution as justice. If they didn't want him executed they would've sent him to the Hague. And what does this mean: "If he dies he wont suffer and pay for his crimes?" Everybody dies... so I don't know what you're trying to imply. In the Arab world, executions are used as a means for carrying out justice... just because you don't think that it's justified to execute a man who's responsible for the brutal murders of thousands of innocent people does not mean that they can't have a different interpretation of what justice is. They want him to die... and I happen to support their position. Saddam Hussein executed innocent men, women, and children... and you're telling me that that's not enough justification for him to meet that same fate. If anything, he's going to die a more peaceful death (regardless of whether or not he's executed or a guy who dies in prison).

If your government was responsible for the violent murder of your family members, you would rather have that government continue its acts instead of having someone end that regimes violence towards innocent civilians? I mean, you're essentially telling me that going war against Adolf Hitler was wrong.


You know...you are the one who doesnt understand....

I said that I want Saddam paying for his crimes (after his presence in a law court) in a prison jail...if he dies he wont pay enoughly for them(I used dies refering to his execution...please dont mock with my poor english) because I chose to belive in justice (actually if i wasnt a teacher Id like to be a lawyer)


I grrew up in a Western society...with western values as democracy, freedom, respect and justice...so I cant advocate violence (execution ) as a solution, even if in this case we are talking about Saddam Hussein.
and even though some of the cities of my country (not the whole country) have a very sad problem regarding to violence/criminal rates (like you are constantly posting this on board) theres no death penalty here: because we still believe in Justice.

Saying that war against Adolf Hitler is wrong is completely pointless !!!! Theres no connection with this issue...please STOP changing my words here!!!!!!! :mad:

[Chase]

You know...you are the one who doesnt understand....

I said that I want Saddam paying for his crimes (after his presence in a law court) in a prison jail...if he dies he wont pay enoughly for them(I used dies refering to his execution...please dont mock with my poor english) because I chose to belive in justice (actually if i wasnt a teacher Id like to be a lawyer)


I grrew up in a Western society...with western values as democracy, freedom, respect and justice...so I cant advocate violence (execution ) as a solution, even if in this case we are talking about Saddam Hussein.
and even though some of the cities of my country (not the whole country) have a very sad problem regarding to violence/criminal rates (like you are constantly posting this on board) theres no death penalty here: because we still believe in Justice.

Saying that war against Adolf Hitler is wrong is completely pointless !!!! Theres no connection with this issue...please STOP changing my words here!!!!!!! :mad:

Bringing up Adolf Hitler is a completely valid argument. Using your logic, you wouldn't support going to war against a man that killed millions of Jews. That is your logic, I'm not changing anything here.

Iraqi culture and Middle Eastern society in general believe in execution as a means for carrying out justice. You don't have to agree with it, but it's a cultural form of sentencing in their society. A lot of Iraqis who lost loved ones at the hands of Saddam Hussein believe that watching him die will bring them with some sense of closure. To them, justice will be carried out. I was brought up in a Western society, but most Americans still believe that the death penalty is fair. If someone kills a pregnant women, or rapes and kills a small child... tell me why we as tax payers should pay for their jail cell for 50 years? It's very costly to keep someone in prison for life. If they killed someone in cold blood... why should they be allowed to live at the tax payers expense? In terms of Saddam Hussein, you should respect what the Iraqis want and what their culture advocates. They want him to die and they should be able to carry out that sentence.

[Ana4Stapp]

Bringing up Adolf Hitler is a completely valid argument. Using your logic, you wouldn't support going to war against a man that killed millions of Jews. That is your logic, I'm not changing anything here.

Iraqi culture and Middle Eastern society in general believe in execution as a means for carrying out justice. You don't have to agree with it, but it's a cultural form of sentencing in their society. A lot of Iraqis who lost loved ones at the hands of Saddam Hussein believe that watching him die will bring them with some sense of closure. To them, justice will be carried out. I was brought up in a Western society, but most Americans still believe that the death penalty is fair. If someone kills a pregnant women, or rapes and kills a small child... tell me why we as tax payers should pay for their jail cell for 50 years? It's very costly to keep someone in prison for life. If they killed someone in cold blood... why should they be allowed to live at the tax payers expense? In terms of Saddam Hussein, you should respect what the Iraqis want and what their culture advocates. They want him to die and they should be able to carry out that sentence.

YES, you ARE!!!!! :mad:

I dont see you understand about logic...because your points are ilogical...
I said I chose justice --waht means dont advocate executions/;death penalty because I dont believe in this as a real punishment...Its so clear! I cant believe you cant understand it!!!!
Ill try again: If Saddam dies he WONT pay for his CRIMES!!!!! He wont suffer in a prison jail for years... If he dies he wont suffer and pay enough for his crimes...Do you think that Milosevic paid for his crimes??????

NO he didnt pay...because he died...and if Saddam dies he wont pay for this terrible crimes against iraquian people...it s obvious!!!!!

[uncertaindrumer]

Chase, are you God? Can you give someone life? Why then do you believe you have the right to give someone death.

Let God deal with Saddam's eternal fate. Saddam should be locked away. Besides. From a purely secularist, materialistic, immoral point of view, death would be too good for him anyway.

[Ana4Stapp]

Chase, are you God? Can you give someone life? Why then do you believe you have the right to give someone death.

Let God deal with Saddam's eternal fate. Saddam should be locked away. Besides. From a purely secularist, materialistic, immoral point of view, death would be too good for him anyway.


Finally someone who understands my point.!!! ;) I love you.

[JulieCitySlicker]

Ya,lock him up,maybe he'll commit suicide like Hitler did.

[Chase]

Chase, are you God? Can you give someone life? Why then do you believe you have the right to give someone death.

Let God deal with Saddam's eternal fate. Saddam should be locked away. Besides. From a purely secularist, materialistic, immoral point of view, death would be too good for him anyway.

I never claimed to be God... and in this issue, religion plays no part from my standpoint. And yes, I can can give someone life... there's a thing called "reproduction."

[Chase]

Finally someone who understands my point.!!! ;) I love you.

No, you're an atheist... and he's a Christian. He has a different point than you.

[Ana4Stapp]

No, you're an atheist... and he's a Christian. He has a different point than you.

Please stop judging me Chase!!!:mad: : I AM not sure if Im an atheist even though I clearly have some questions regarding to religions...

And whats the problem to say that I agree with Stephen words? This has nothing to do with religion...I agree with his opinion saying that Saddam's death wont be 'bad' to him...cause he wont pay for his crimes.

I have all the right to AGREE with certain people who say intelligent words... and by the way I LOVE them. :D


Ah...and dont be jealous Chase! ;)
lol

[Chase]

Please stop judging me Chase!!!:mad: : I AM not sure if Im an atheist even though I clearly have some questions regarding to religions...

And whats the problem to say that I agree with Stephen words? This has nothing to do with religion...I agree with his opinion saying that Saddam's death wont be 'bad' to him...cause he wont pay for his crimes.

I have all the right to AGREE with certain people who say intelligent words... and by the way I LOVE them. :D


Ah...and dont be jealous Chase! ;)
lol

You told me that you were an atheist. Anyway, if the Iraqis want to execute Hussein... they should execute him. If his execution makes them feel that justice was served... they should execute him. That is JUSTICE TO MOST IRAQIS.

[uncertaindrumer]

I never claimed to be God... and in this issue, religion plays no part from my standpoint.

So, religion plays no part? If religion plays no part in certain areas of your life, how can you claim to be religious? Does it also play no part in your political views? Your social views? How can you pick and choose where religion matters.

You do not give someone life, chase. God does. Or at least, I *thought* that was what you believed. You want the power of death over someone? That sounds awfually satanic to me.

Tell me; what is the virtue in killing Saddam? There is NONE. Except for, I forgot, revenge. Apparently your religion plays no part here, either. Or does your religion preach revenge? I don't think it does. Correct me if I am wrong.

To claim the power of life and death over your fellow human beings is to claim to be God. Shame on you.

And yes, I can can give someone life... there's a thing called "reproduction."

This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard, bar none. And that is saying something, since I have been arguing with anarkist off and on for quite some time (;) ). You think the ability to participate in a reproductive act gives you the right to kill? What kind of sick sadistic soul are you?

[uncertaindrumer]

You told me that you were an atheist. Anyway, if the Iraqis want to execute Hussein... they should execute him. If his execution makes them feel that justice was served... they should execute him. That is JUSTICE TO MOST IRAQIS.

So now we live in a world where morality is dictated by the majority? Chase, where has your brain gone?

[Chase]

So, religion plays no part? If religion plays no part in certain areas of your life, how can you claim to be religious? Does it also play no part in your political views? Your social views? How can you pick and choose where religion matters.

You do not give someone life, chase. God does. Or at least, I *thought* that was what you believed. You want the power of death over someone? That sounds awfually satanic to me.

Tell me; what is the virtue in killing Saddam? There is NONE. Except for, I forgot, revenge. Apparently your religion plays no part here, either. Or does your religion preach revenge? I don't think it does. Correct me if I am wrong.

To claim the power of life and death over your fellow human beings is to claim to be God. Shame on you.



This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard, bar none. And that is saying something, since I have been arguing with anarkist off and on for quite some time (;) ). You think the ability to participate in a reproductive act gives you the right to kill? What kind of sick sadistic soul are you?

Don't even play the hypocrisy card with me. You're a Christian fundamentalist who is very intolerant and judgemental towards other people. If anyone is giving Christianity a bad name, it's you. Saddam Hussein did not give a shit about the lives who took... the thousands, if not millions of lives he took. If the Iraqis want to execute him, they have every right to do so.

I don't mix religion and politics... and if you want a good example at what happens when you do... look at Iran. It's quite sad that you call me "sick" and "sadistic" when you can't even call a genocidal dicator anything derogatory. I never realized your skewed form Christianity teaches you to be intolerant, judgemental, and sympathetic towards evil souls like Saddam Hussein. The only virgin birth amongst human beings that I know of happened with the conception of Jesus Christ... and as far as I know, it takes a man and a women to create another living being. Without them, life doesn't happen. So, that being said... a man and a women are essential in the creation of life. Read a book and learn about sexual reproduction, because apparently you think babies from a stork.

[Chase]

So now we live in a world where morality is dictated by the majority? Chase, where has your brain gone?

Yes, we do live in a world where majorities dictate the morality of a state's society. You obviously don't know how democratic republics function. With all due respect sir, where has your brain gone?

[Ana4Stapp]

I don't mix religion and politics... and if you want a good example at what happens when you do... look at Iran. It's quite sad that you call me "sick" and "sadistic" when you can't even call a genocidal dicator anything derogatory. I never realized your skewed form Christianity teaches you to be intolerant, judgemental, and sympathetic towards evil souls like Saddam Hussein. The only virgin birth amongst human beings that I know of happened with the conception of Jesus Christ... and as far as I know, it takes a man and a women to create another living being. Without them, life doesn't happen. So, that being said... a man and a women are essential in the creation of life. Read a book and learn about sexual reproduction, because apparently you think babies from a stork.

Yes....seems that you are the one mixing politics and religion here...I dont see Uncertain being sympathetic with Saddam Hussein...just becasue he doesnt see Saddam's death as the solution.
Chase ...kiling Saddam only smells revenge which is entirely different from JUSTICE!

[Chase]

Yes....seems that you are the one mixing politics and religion here...I dont see Uncertain being sympathetic with Saddam Hussein...just becasue he doesnt see Saddam's death as the solution.
Chase ...kiling Saddam only smells revenge which is entirely different from JUSTICE!

Justice is achieved differently throughout the world. Iraqis favor the death penalty for a man that tortured his own people. They have every right to kill him if they so chose. Just because you don't like it, does not mean that they don't. They want it... therefore, they should execute him.

I'm not mixing religion and politics here. I don't think that a man who butchered thousands upon millions of innocent people should be fed, bathed, and housed for the rest of his life by the same people that he brutalized.

[uncertaindrumer]

Don't even play the hypocrisy card with me.

Hypocrisy? I don't recall calling you a hypocrite. Just nuts.

You're a Christian fundamentalist

Oh? I think you are the first person to ever call me that. And indeed, seeing as it is the "fundamentalists" (whatever that means) that are in general in SUPPORT of this war, and the more liberals who are challenging it, your position does not seem to make much sense.

who is very intolerant and judgemental towards other people.

Okay, if I was not playing the hypocrite card before, I am now. YOU WANT TO KILL A GUY, and *I* am the intolerant one? WHAT?!

If anyone is giving Christianity a bad name, it's you.

Umm, no, it wouldn't be. And even if I am, I am not going to change my beliefs because they don't make other people happy. Jesus did not make other people happy. They killed Him. Does that make Him wrong? By your sttrange system it does...

Saddam Hussein did not give a shit about the lives who took... the thousands, if not millions of lives he took.

Oh I see. Since he is bad we can be bad. Very moral of you.

If the Iraqis want to execute him, they have every right to do so.

God doesn't appear to agree.

I don't mix religion and politics...

Then you aren't religious. God doesn't want half of you. He doesn't want you to listen to Him and then go out in public and ignore Him when making political decisions. Or, maybe your God does. I don't know. I have never heard of your God.

and if you want a good example at what happens when you do... look at Iran.

uh... how?

It's quite sad that you call me "sick" and "sadistic" when you can't even call a genocidal dicator anything derogatory.

Oh? I think Saddam is one of the evilest people I have heard of. So? Does that change anything now? Calling him names means nothing.

I never realized your skewed form Christianity teaches you to be intolerant, judgemental,

Of whom exactly? I am the one advocating that we leav death and judgement in God's hands. You are the one advocating we take it up ourselves. And yet I'm judgemental? Hmmm....

and sympathetic towards evil souls like Saddam Hussein.

Be careful with your words here. Evil SOUL? Are you saying that no matter what, he could never be redeemed. If so, by all means kill him. If not, maybe we should leave him alive in hope. Will he ever redeem himself? I'd give a gazillion to one odds against. But those are odds worth giving a chance, considering the eternal consequences.

The only virgin birth amongst human beings that I know of happened with the conception of Jesus Christ...

Well I could aruge about that but not now.

and as far as I know, it takes a man and a women to create another living being.

It takes God.

Without them, life doesn't happen.

Tell that to Adam.

So, that being said... a man and a women are essential in the creation of life.

Umm, they CAN be. God doesn't need to them to be.


But to speak in general towards your post: you constantly insult me, calling me intolerant and judgemental. Of whom, exactly? What are you talking about? Where are you getting these ideas? I just don't understand it.

You might have just posted the most confusing and nonsensical thing I have ever read.

[uncertaindrumer]

Yes, we do live in a world where majorities dictate the morality of a state's society. You obviously don't know how democratic republics function. With all due respect sir, where has your brain gone?

I see. You are a Christian, chase? I honestly don't remember. If you aren't, this post makes sense, if you are, it makes none. God doesn't follow the majority. Morals don't change.

your atittude is amazingly close to that of a super liberal moral relativist, which is extremely unusual for a right wing Christian.

[uncertaindrumer]

Justice is achieved differently throughout the world. Iraqis favor the death penalty for a man that tortured his own people. They have every right to kill him if they so chose. Just because you don't like it, does not mean that they don't. They want it... therefore, they should execute him.

Where did they get this right to kill people?

I'm not mixing religion and politics here. I don't think that a man who butchered thousands upon millions of innocent people should be fed, bathed, and housed for the rest of his life by the same people that he brutalized.

So you think we should murder him in cold blood. you are right. no religion there.

[Chase]

Where did they get this right to kill people?



So you think we should murder him in cold blood. you are right. no religion there.

I find it quite odd for someone like you to humanize a genocidal, repressive dictator. They have free will... which means, that they have every opportunity to execute this man.

[Ana4Stapp]

I find it quite odd for someone like you to humanize a genocidal, repressive dictator. They have free will... which means, that they have every opportunity to execute this man.

No one here is 'humanizing' Saddam . Everyone knows that hes the resposible for brutal crimes against men, women and children Iraq. He was a genocidal. So now he needs to pay for his acts...and the best way is using Justice.
Dying is not a solution to him...because he wont suffer ...

And you say that you are a religious man...so why advocate his death by Humans?...I mean why you dont wait for God to punish him?

Why the use of a violent method to stop his violence? This has no sense...

And seriously Im surprised for seeing you defending this kind of barbarian method :wtf: Are you trying to be in the same level with him? :confused:
Its disappointing because I thought you were better than him...

[uncertaindrumer]

I find it quite odd for someone like you to humanize a genocidal, repressive dictator.

what, is he not human? When it is conclusively proved that he is not human, I will admit it was stupid to speak of him as a human.

They have free will... which means, that they have every opportunity to execute this man.

:eek:

WHAT?! I have free will too. Does that mean I get to kill YOU?

[Chase]

Let me ask you something. Are you against medication and surgeries that are used to slow the process of death? One could argue that you putting your trust into the hands of a medical doctor is preventing God's will from taking place. In addition, one could also make the argument that doctors play God every single day. Does that prevent you from going to the doctor if you're sick? I mean, if a man gets in a freak car accident... and the doctors "save his life" are they standing in opposition to what God had in place for the man?

[uncertaindrumer]

No. We should do what we can to keep people alive; not to kill them.

[Chase]

No. We should do what we can to keep people alive; not to kill them.

So, if it's God's will for someone to die... it's our job to make sure their trip to Heaven is obstructed?

[Lunar Shadow]

to throw in my $0.02 here I really don't care of he is jailed for life or killed because either way he will die at the hands of the U.S. weather or not we have the right to is a whole other story

[Ana4Stapp]

I cant understand a person advocating an execution in 21 century like if it was a 'normal' thing ...and not like an obvious example of a barbarity...

[uncertaindrumer]

So, if it's God's will for someone to die... it's our job to make sure their trip to Heaven is obstructed?

God willing someone to die. God doesn't want people dying chase. He wants to save them the last I checked. I dunno, maybe there is not a New New Testament or something.

[Chase]

God willing someone to die. God doesn't want people dying chase. He wants to save them the last I checked. I dunno, maybe there is not a New New Testament or something.

If God wants someone to go to Heaven... that person must first die. Last time I checked, the living aren't in Heaven.

[uncertaindrumer]

If God wants someone to go to Heaven... that person must first die. Last time I checked, the living aren't in Heaven.

Yes God might want someone to come home to Him. And if He does, let Him take care of that too. You are trying to play God. I am not.

You are so amazingly thick headed I cannot believe it. You are advocating the outright murder of a man. I do not care if he is a convicted genocidal killer, you are advocating revenge. Revenge is clearly taught against in the Bible. But then, you clearly don't care about that. Your political views, after all, don't rely on the Bible, or Christ, or God in general. So what other views of yours don't rely on the Christianity? Morals, maybe? Are you even a Christian? I can't rememeber what you said to this.

I suppose, by your view of "justice", we should actually not kill Saddam, we should torture him for the rest of his life. After all, even the rest of his life would not be as long as he tortured people, right? When you want to advocate that, let me know. Otherwise your position is not only reprehensible, but illogical.

[Chase]

Yes God might want someone to come home to Him. And if He does, let Him take care of that too. You are trying to play God. I am not.

You are so amazingly thick headed I cannot believe it. You are advocating the outright murder of a man. I do not care if he is a convicted genocidal killer, you are advocating revenge. Revenge is clearly taught against in the Bible. But then, you clearly don't care about that. Your political views, after all, don't rely on the Bible, or Christ, or God in general. So what other views of yours don't rely on the Christianity? Morals, maybe? Are you even a Christian? I can't rememeber what you said to this.

I suppose, by your view of "justice", we should actually not kill Saddam, we should torture him for the rest of his life. After all, even the rest of his life would not be as long as he tortured people, right? When you want to advocate that, let me know. Otherwise your position is not only reprehensible, but illogical.

I don't live in a theocracy. This isn't the United Christian States of America. People play God everyday. Doctors play God by keeping people alive who would normally die. Scientists who are trying to cure deadly diseases are playing God. How am I playing God? I'm going to tie the rope around Hussein's neck. The Iraqis don't him to live for the crimes that he has committed against them. That's the truth.

How is it illogical? By your logic, once Hussein dies... he'll be burning in Hell for an eternity. I honestly see that as being worse than him sitting in a prison cell for another 15-20 years.

[uncertaindrumer]

I don't live in a theocracy. This isn't the United Christian States of America.

So?


People play God everyday.

So now the masses mean something again. Do you jsut do whatever the majority does?

Doctors play God by keeping people alive who would normally die.

Umm... no? From a Christian perspective, one should attempt to keep people alive, for life is a precious thing indeed.

I'm going to tie the rope around Hussein's neck.

Okay. I now know a murderer.

The Iraqis don't him to live for the crimes that he has committed against them. That's the truth.

The apparent typo in his sentence has me confused...

How is it illogical? By your logic, once Hussein dies... he'll be burning in Hell for an eternity. I honestly see that as being worse than him sitting in a prison cell for another 15-20 years.

You are wishing someone to burn in Hell. And you wonder why I called you sadistic? It doesn't GET any more sadistic than that.

[Chase]

So?




So now the masses mean something again. Do you jsut do whatever the majority does?



Umm... no? From a Christian perspective, one should attempt to keep people alive, for life is a precious thing indeed.



Okay. I now know a murderer.



The apparent typo in his sentence has me confused...



You are wishing someone to burn in Hell. And you wonder why I called you sadistic? It doesn't GET any more sadistic than that.


There are a couple of typos. I meant to say that I'm NOT going to be the one to tie the rope around his neck and the Iraqis want him executed. I'm not sadistic and I'm not carrying out the execution. You don't think what Saddam did was sadistic and worthy for him to burn in Hell. Great... it's nice knowing a self-righteous "Christian" who is minimizing such atrocities. Great job. I'm sadistic for condemning Hussein. Way to go... your "logic" never seizes to amaze me.

And another thing. You're telling me that it's good for people to stop the will of God? If it's God's will to have someone die in a car accident, should the doctor keep the person alive... even if the outcome is sever paralysis? Your attitude makes me believe that you wish the U.S. was a Christian theocracy. You make it sound like the law of the land should be Biblical in nature. My point is that people play God everyday... but you're only critical in certain cases. I don't understand that. Then again... I'm "sadistic." Way to go... being extremely judgemental with me. Always carrying out the word of the Lord, eh?

Saddam Hussein is a murderer. He will burn in Hell for what he's done to thousands of INNOCENT people. Key word: INNOCENT. Either way he's going to Hell.

[uncertaindrumer]

There are a couple of typos. I meant to say that I'm NOT going to be the one to tie the rope around his neck and the Iraqis want him executed. I'm not sadistic and I'm not carrying out the execution.

The distinction between killing someone and wanting to kill them is negligible. If you had the opportunity would you execute him?

You don't think what Saddam did was sadistic and worthy for him to burn in Hell.

Of course it was sadistic and if he doesn't repent he will most likely burn in Hell. But I am not God and I will not decide.

Great... it's nice knowing a self-righteous "Christian" who is minimizing such atrocities.

I am not minimizing the atrocity of murder. You are. I think what he did was terrible. I don't think continung murder will make it less terrible.

Great job. I'm sadistic for condemning Hussein.

If you believe in Christ you are. He specifically said *NOT* to judge others, so that you yourself may not be judged.

Way to go... your "logic" never seizes to amaze me.

It is logical, if you take Christianty as a starting point. If you take the secular worldy view (revenge at all costs), you are right, it is not logical.

And another thing. You're telling me that it's good for people to stop the will of God?

No.

If it's God's will to have someone die in a car accident,

Oh so you know God's will now? You don't know what His will is, apparently.

should the doctor keep the person alive... even if the outcome is sever paralysis?

Yes. Again, Christ told us life, not death. You want people to die. I want them to live.

Your attitude makes me believe that you wish the U.S. was a Christian theocracy.

And yet I am not the super conservative war monger who is trying to force democracy upon the middle east...

You make it sound like the law of the land should be Biblical in nature.

I am talking about morals. Of course I am going to use the Bible to back up claims of morality.

My point is that people play God everyday...

Again, this has nothing to do with anything

but you're only critical in certain cases. I don't understand that.

We should strive to be like Christ. Did Christ heal people, or kill them? He healed them. So while I try to save life, you go on ahead and keep killing them.

Then again... I'm "sadistic."

You want someone to burn in Hell. I say again, that is indeed sadistic. Only Satan *wants* people to burn in Hell.

Way to go... being extremely judgemental with me.

If someone were to rape someoe else, you would call them a rapist. Is that judgemental? I think not. If someone were to wish Hell upon someone else, would that be justification for saying it was a sadistic notion? I think so.

Saddam Hussein is a murderer.

Duh.

He will burn in Hell for what he's done to thousands of INNOCENT people.

Oh so you are God now? Great job. You jsut told us all what God is planning to do. While you are at it, can you tell us when Jesus will be returning? How about his exact birthdate? How about what really happened at the beginning of the universe?

Oh, you can't answer those questions? Then stop condemning people to Hell.

Key word: INNOCENT. Either way he's going to Hell.

Not if he were to repent and convert. Will he? I highly doubt it. Does that mean you know beyond a shadow of a doubt? Absolutely not.

[Chase]

The distinction between killing someone and wanting to kill them is negligible. If you had the opportunity would you execute him?



Of course it was sadistic and if he doesn't repent he will most likely burn in Hell. But I am not God and I will not decide.



I am not minimizing the atrocity of murder. You are. I think what he did was terrible. I don't think continung murder will make it less terrible.



If you believe in Christ you are. He specifically said *NOT* to judge others, so that you yourself may not be judged.



It is logical, if you take Christianty as a starting point. If you take the secular worldy view (revenge at all costs), you are right, it is not logical.



No.



Oh so you know God's will now? You don't know what His will is, apparently.



Yes. Again, Christ told us life, not death. You want people to die. I want them to live.



And yet I am not the super conservative war monger who is trying to force democracy upon the middle east...



I am talking about morals. Of course I am going to use the Bible to back up claims of morality.



Again, this has nothing to do with anything



We should strive to be like Christ. Did Christ heal people, or kill them? He healed them. So while I try to save life, you go on ahead and keep killing them.



You want someone to burn in Hell. I say again, that is indeed sadistic. Only Satan *wants* people to burn in Hell.



If someone were to rape someoe else, you would call them a rapist. Is that judgemental? I think not. If someone were to wish Hell upon someone else, would that be justification for saying it was a sadistic notion? I think so.



Duh.



Oh so you are God now? Great job. You jsut told us all what God is planning to do. While you are at it, can you tell us when Jesus will be returning? How about his exact birthdate? How about what really happened at the beginning of the universe?

Oh, you can't answer those questions? Then stop condemning people to Hell.



Not if he were to repent and convert. Will he? I highly doubt it. Does that mean you know beyond a shadow of a doubt? Absolutely not.

You get on my case for judging a tyrannical murderer... but you go right ahead and judge me. You judge a lot of people, Scott Stapp included. Care to explain your hypocrisy? Saddam Hussein murdered thousands upon thousands of people. If you commit murder, then you're most likely on a path to Hell. C'mon, you should know that. I'm not sending him to Hell, God is. If you have a problem with that, take it up with Him, not me. I don't want people to die... I want people to carry out whatever they feel is just in response to the thousands of deaths that Saddam Hussein is linked to. If the Iraqis use execution as a means of finding justice... then they have every right to execute Saddam Hussein. Not everybody is a Christian... or your type of Christian.

I've said that Saddam Hussein will most likely go to Hell for what he's done... and you turn around and say that I should "stop condemning people to Hell" as if I've made a regular practice of condemning multitudes of people to Hell. I'm making an observation. Someone as evil as Hussein is most likely headed downstairs, not up. I would never be an executioner, nor would I allow myself to be put in the position to execute someone... period. However, some people find justice in knowing that the person who murdered their loved one is no longer living. Instead of calling me sadistic, try calling the insurgents who execute innocent humanitarian aid workers a derogatory name for once.

[RalphyS]

Interesting!

I want to get in the Christian part of the debate a bit.
Obviously as an atheïst, hell or heaven, doesn't matter to me, because the only downstairs were going to is five feet under or perhaps a 5 minute fire, that we both won't feel a thing off.
But from the Christian view I always understood someone could repent and convert in the last minute of his life, after a life of terrible misdeeds, say Saddam, and then enter the kingdom of heaven. While someone like Gandhi would go to hell because he did not believe in the Christian God. The American prisons are filled with murderers, who have found God, who are getting state-help going to heaven. Wouldn't it be better to punish them here for their crimes be keeping them locked up and not sending them to this paradisy thing called heaven?

Another thing, now with the news of the gospel of Judas?
Where is Judas? Heaven or hell?

[Ana4Stapp]

Hey guys...We are in 21 century! We arent barbarians who have death as solution. We have JUSTICE. I mean, we have to use justice to punish Saddam for all his odious crimes. Not to compare ourselves with him...

[Chase]

Hey guys...We are in 21 century! We arent barbarians who have death as solution. We have JUSTICE. I mean, we have to use justice to punish Saddam for all his odious crimes. Not to compare ourselves with him...

So if the Iraqis find justice in executing him you're alright with that?

[Ana4Stapp]

So if the Iraqis find justice in executing him you're alright with that?

Justice in 21 century means LAW. Execution is a barbarian method.

[Chase]

Justice in 21 century means LAW. Execution is a barbarian method.

Who are you to define what the 21st Century is? He broke multiple laws and they find execution to be a way of carrying out justice for the deaths of thousands of innocent people.

[Ana4Stapp]

Who are you to define what the 21st Century is? He broke multiple laws and they find execution to be a way of carrying out justice for the deaths of thousands of innocent people.

Im a person (a citizen) who believes in justice and in law ...And it has nothing to do with 'define' 21st century...this is the reality...we cant allow violence as a solution to his crimes. ..We are in 21st century...We need to use values, morals instead of passionate feelings like revenge...

Im really surprised that you dont know what 21 century is...:eek:


EDIT:Oh... Im not surprised ..you are constantly advocating war as solution for almost everything ...isnt it? :rolleyes:

[metalchris25]

The Bible says eye for an eye.

[Chase]

Im a person (a citizen) who believes in justice and in law ...And it has nothing to do with 'define' 21st century...this is the reality...we cant allow violence as a solution to his crimes. ..We are in 21st century...We need to use values, morals instead of passionate feelings like revenge...

Im really surprised that you dont know what 21 century is...:eek:


EDIT:Oh... Im not surprised ..you are constantly advocating war as solution for almost everything ...isnt it? :rolleyes:

If Iraqi values and morals deem it necessary to execute a man as ruthless as Hussein... they have the right to punish him in in that fashion. The rule of law is not constant. It changes from culture to culture. Many Arab nations practice the death penalty. The 21st century doesn't mean that everybody has the same set of values. It's just a new century...

[Ana4Stapp]

The Bible says eye for an eye.

WOW!!! The most absurd thing i read here...

[Ana4Stapp]

If Iraqi values and morals deem it necessary to execute a man as ruthless as Hussein... they have the right to punish him in in that fashion. The rule of law is not constant. It changes from culture to culture. Many Arab nations practice the death penalty. The 21st century doesn't mean that everybody has the same set of values. It's just a new century...

No one is saying that we need to have the same values...its hypocrisy. Im not judging the cultures that exist all over the world...but its weird that a person who was raised in a democratic countrie that claims for rights like justice/law (even though allow death penalty) who studied/studies social science as History believes in execution as a solution to punish Saddam Hussein...I mean its not making justice its using revenge...Its not rational.You are defending DEATH.Its imoral.
Cant you see that? :eek:

And yeah...I dont want morals to change just because we are in the 21 st century...but I think we have to be/act 'different' from barbarians methods in barbarian ages...

[Chase]

No one is saying that we need to have the same values...its hypocrisy. Im not judging the cultures that exist all over the world...but its weird that a person who was raised in a democratic countrie that claims for rights like justice/law (even though allow death penalty) who studied/studies social science as History believes in execution as a solution to punish Saddam Hussein...I mean its not making justice its using revenge...Its not rational.You are defending DEATH.Its imoral.
Cant you see that? :eek:

And yeah...I dont want morals to change just because we are in the 21 st century...but I think we have to be/act 'different' from barbarians methods in barbarian ages...

If people find justice in executing the man that ordered the deaths of their loved ones... don't you think they should be able to punish him in whatever way they find necessary? If someone raped, and then brutually murdered my little daughter... I would find more justice in their execution as opposed to knowing that American tax dollars are paying to keep that person alive in a prison cell. Justice is different in various cultures. I mean, Brazil has an alarming murder rate... what does your government do? Have a prison full of killers?

Saddam Hussein didn't treat the people he murdered with respect. In fact, he had his men dig giant holes to stack the bodies in. Tell me one good reason why the same people he tortured should treat him in a respectful manner? It's sad because had Adolf Hitler been captured alive, you would've defended him against the people who would be trying him in court. The millions of people who had to deal with the consequences of his actions.

[Ana4Stapp]

If people find justice in executing the man that ordered the deaths of their loved ones... don't you think they should be able to punish him in whatever way they find necessary? If someone raped, and then brutually murdered my little daughter... I would find more justice in their execution as opposed to knowing that American tax dollars are paying to keep that person alive in a prison cell. Justice is different in various cultures. I mean, Brazil has an alarming murder rate... what does your government do? Have a prison full of killers?

Saddam Hussein didn't treat the people he murdered with respect. In fact, he had his men dig giant holes to stack the bodies in. Tell me one good reason why the same people he tortured should treat him in a respectful manner? It's sad because had Adolf Hitler been captured alive, you would've defended him against the people who would be trying him in court. The millions of people who had to deal with the consequences of his actions.


Okay Chase by your (i) logical point all we have to do its use the 'lex talionis' ...How about using Code of Hammurabi instead of American Constitution?

In my country (that by the way has criminals as the same way your country has...)we have LAWS and we use them...and yeah criminals are in prison jails to pay for the crimes, because my governement do respect humans rights... we dont have copies l of Guantanamos prison here...

And I cant belive you are saying that I could defend Hitler...Im sorry that you cant reply to my posts with some kind of coherence...:eek:

[Chase]

Okay Chase by your (i) logical point all we have to do its use the 'lex talionis' ...How about using Code of Hammurabi instead of American Constitution?

In my country (that by the way has criminals as the same way your country has...)we have LAWS and we use them...and yeah criminals are in prison jails to pay for the crimes, because my governement do respect humans rights... we dont have copies l of Guantanamos prison here...

And I cant belive you are saying that I could defend Hitler...Im sorry that you cant reply to my posts with some kind of coherence...:eek:

Well, seeing as you're defending Saddam Hussein... I don't think you defending Adolf Hitler is much of a stretch.

[RalphyS]

There is a difference in being against the death penalty and defending the acts of criminals/murderers/dictators, Chase, but it's a fine line and you've yet to show subtlety on these boards :rolleyes:

You remind me a lot of the old style westerns, where the good guy wore the white hat and the bad guy wore the black, probably the same movies that inspired Dubya's notion of 'you're either for us or against us'. Well, let me tell you, the world isn't black and white, there's a whole lot of grey around.

Oh and about the money that it costs to keep murderer's in jail, it costs the taxpayers more money if someone is sentenced to death, than to keep him in jail for the rest of their life, but I do not think money is really the issue. Showing people that killing is wrong by killing people is really stupid.

[Justify]

There is a difference in being against the death penalty and defending the acts of criminals/murderers/dictators, Chase, but it's a fine line and you've yet to show subtlety on these boards :rolleyes:

You remind me a lot of the old style westerns, where the good guy wore the white hat and the bad guy wore the black, probably the same movies that inspired Dubya's notion of 'you're either for us or against us'. Well, let me tell you, the world isn't black and white, there's a whole lot of grey around.

Oh and about the money that it costs to keep murderer's in jail, it costs the taxpayers more money if someone is sentenced to death, than to keep him in jail for the rest of their life, but I do not think money is really the issue. Showing people that killing is wrong by killing people is really stupid.


The death sentence is a deterrent. If someone thinks they may lose their life if they take someone else’s life then maybe they will think twice about it. Also many things in this world are black and white. Guess what, Saddam killed 100's of thousands of his own people. That is a black and white issue. There are too many people like you who like to think that some issues are not black and white. Maybe some things in this world are grey but things such as this are black and white. There are evil people in this world and sometimes the only thing that scares them is losing their life. The death sentence is not a pretty thing but it has to exist to deter criminals. If it did not exist I believe there would be far worse crime in the world.

[RalphyS]

If the death penalty worked as a deterrent far less murders would have to happen in countries that have the death penalty than in those that don't.

Guess what, that isn't the case, it's rather the opposite. Compare the murder rate of the US per capita with that for Canada for instance, or even that of states in the USA with or without the death penalty. The function of the death penalty as a deterrent simply does not work.

And to be honest, I personally would rather die quickly than spent the rest of my life locked up in jail. It always amazes me how people think how easy it is to be in jail, room and food provided by the government they state, the easy life. Well, I would suggest you try jail for a week and see if you still think it's a piece of cake.

And sure, Saddam broke the law in the most cruel way and he does deserve to be punished, lock him up and throw away the key. I just think the message put out there is wrong, killing people is wrong and therefore he needs to be punished, but wait a minute, if the state kills, doesn't it do the same thing? Yeah, but he deserves it. When Saddam was in power, he too believed they deserved it!

The death penalty is like beating children, who didn't listen. It told you not to fight, kaboom!

I know the story about an eye for an eye, but isn't there also a story about turning the other cheek and isn't there also something about "thou shalt not kill" and not "thou shalt not kill, except for killers".

[Justify]

Interesting!

I want to get in the Christian part of the debate a bit.
Obviously as an atheïst, hell or heaven, doesn't matter to me, because the only downstairs were going to is five feet under or perhaps a 5 minute fire, that we both won't feel a thing off.
But from the Christian view I always understood someone could repent and convert in the last minute of his life, after a life of terrible misdeeds, say Saddam, and then enter the kingdom of heaven. While someone like Gandhi would go to hell because he did not believe in the Christian God. The American prisons are filled with murderers, who have found God, who are getting state-help going to heaven. Wouldn't it be better to punish them here for their crimes be keeping them locked up and not sending them to this paradisy thing called heaven?

Another thing, now with the news of the gospel of Judas?
Where is Judas? Heaven or hell?


This is not a very good argument. First of all, if you are right and there is no heaven or hell then I will never know any different after I die. But, if I am right and there is a heaven and a hell then you will know immediately after you die. To be an atheist you have to have faith that the earth and universe appeared from nothing. To be a Christian I have to have faith that God was always here. Either way we both have to have faith in what we believe.
You are correct that if a person accepts Jesus as their savior, even after they comment terrible crimes, that they will enter the kingdom of God. God has the power to forgive all sins. But just because God forgives does not mean that there are no consequences for our actions here on Earth. If a person is sentenced to death for a crime they committed then it is up to them to accept Jesus before it is too late. None of us are guaranteed tomorrow so it is left up to us to believe and have faith today. When God gave his laws to Moses he himself said "Eye for an Eye". This is part of God's law. Laws are put into place to deter people and to prevent anarchy. Thus the death penalty is a deterrent as well.

I don't personally know where Judas is. It depends on if Judas really believed Jesus was the Son of God and had faith that he could forgive all sins. Only God knows our hearts.

[Justify]

I know the story about an eye for an eye, but isn't there also a story about turning the other cheek and isn't there also something about "thou shalt not kill" and not "thou shalt not kill, except for killers".

Eye for an Eye was from the Old testement when God gave his law. These people had no law before this and needed some type of law to abide by. Turn the other cheek was stated by Jesus. It was not meant to be the law of the land it was meant for the individual Christian. Also the term was not Thou shalt not kill. It was thou shalt not murder. Killing and murder are 2 different things.

Here's a definition so you can better understand.
Murder - The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

Kill - To put to death


If the death penalty worked as a deterrent far less murders would have to happen in countries that have the death penalty than in those that don't.

Guess what, that isn't the case, it's rather the opposite. Compare the murder rate of the US per capita with that for Canada for instance, or even that of states in the USA with or without the death penalty. The function of the death penalty as a deterrent simply does not work.

You cannot just compare one country to another. More factors go into the argument than that. There is the issue of population, number of cities, urban areas, crime rates..etc. You also have to look at whether a country has used the death penalty consistantly. The US does not. Some states do more than others. The fact is that it is not used consistantly enough to gather good information. If you look at states such as Texas that use the death penalty frequently the murder rate decreased greatly. So I would argue the death penalty does work as a deterrent.

[Chase]

There is a difference in being against the death penalty and defending the acts of criminals/murderers/dictators, Chase, but it's a fine line and you've yet to show subtlety on these boards :rolleyes:

You remind me a lot of the old style westerns, where the good guy wore the white hat and the bad guy wore the black, probably the same movies that inspired Dubya's notion of 'you're either for us or against us'. Well, let me tell you, the world isn't black and white, there's a whole lot of grey around.

Oh and about the money that it costs to keep murderer's in jail, it costs the taxpayers more money if someone is sentenced to death, than to keep him in jail for the rest of their life, but I do not think money is really the issue. Showing people that killing is wrong by killing people is really stupid.

That's ludicrous. If someone showed up at a shopping mall and started a shooting spree killing everybody in sight... you would expect the police officers to not do anything to stop the guy? Nevertheless... if the Iraqi people don't want to keep this guy alive (for fear that he'll return to power), do they not have the right to execute the man responsible for the deaths of thousands upon thousands? This isn't the Hague... ruthless dictators want to go to the Hague because they know there's no way in Hell that they'll be executed there. Doesn't that say something?

There's no gray. Saddam Hussein brutalized an entire nation and his neighbors. This issue is clearly black and white. You either commit those crimes or you don't. Hussein was hardly acting in self defense when he order the attacks on innocent civilians. I think it's funny how you sit there and assume that I'm President Bush's number 1 fan simply because I disagree with the Dutch school of thought. If you know anything about foreign policy, you would know that Bush (as well as his predecessors) are liberal in that respect.

[Chase]

If the death penalty worked as a deterrent far less murders would have to happen in countries that have the death penalty than in those that don't.

Guess what, that isn't the case, it's rather the opposite. Compare the murder rate of the US per capita with that for Canada for instance, or even that of states in the USA with or without the death penalty. The function of the death penalty as a deterrent simply does not work.

And to be honest, I personally would rather die quickly than spent the rest of my life locked up in jail. It always amazes me how people think how easy it is to be in jail, room and food provided by the government they state, the easy life. Well, I would suggest you try jail for a week and see if you still think it's a piece of cake.

And sure, Saddam broke the law in the most cruel way and he does deserve to be punished, lock him up and throw away the key. I just think the message put out there is wrong, killing people is wrong and therefore he needs to be punished, but wait a minute, if the state kills, doesn't it do the same thing? Yeah, but he deserves it. When Saddam was in power, he too believed they deserved it!

The death penalty is like beating children, who didn't listen. It told you not to fight, kaboom!

I know the story about an eye for an eye, but isn't there also a story about turning the other cheek and isn't there also something about "thou shalt not kill" and not "thou shalt not kill, except for killers".

Iraqis still have a general fear for Saddam Hussein. They're afraid that he'll regain power. I mean, realistically... he still has a chance of that as long as he's living.

You want to talk stats? Look at Latin American countries where the death penalty is outlawed. They are plagued with alarming murder rates... ALARMING NUMBERS. It does make it easier for some people to kill if they know that they won't kill.

I would rather be alive in prison than die... in all honesty. I mean, granted, I'm sure a Middle Eastern prison is worse than a Dutch prison in the Hague... but still, Iraqis have a rule of law. Hussein is going to be executed because by law, his crimes warrant it.

[RalphyS]

Eye for an Eye was from the Old testement when God gave his law. These people had no law before this and needed some type of law to abide by. Turn the other cheek was stated by Jesus. It was not meant to be the law of the land it was meant for the individual Christian. Also the term was not Thou shalt not kill. It was thou shalt not murder. Killing and murder are 2 different things.

Here's a definition so you can better understand.
Murder - The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

Kill - To put to death.

"You shall not murder"
The Hebrew word ratsach, used in this commandment, is close to the word murder; kill is a mistranslation, but it does not translate directly to the word murder. While most uses of the word ratsach are in passages describing murder, in Proverbs 22:13 a lion ratsach a man to death, many argue since a lion cannot murder anyone, murder is a flawed translation as well.

You cannot just compare one country to another. More factors go into the argument than that. There is the issue of population, number of cities, urban areas, crime rates..etc. You also have to look at whether a country has used the death penalty consistantly. The US does not. Some states do more than others. The fact is that it is not used consistantly enough to gather good information. If you look at states such as Texas that use the death penalty frequently the murder rate decreased greatly. So I would argue the death penalty does work as a deterrent.

Yeah, right, kid yourself!

[RalphyS]

That's ludicrous. If someone showed up at a shopping mall and started a shooting spree killing everybody in sight... you would expect the police officers to not do anything to stop the guy? Nevertheless... if the Iraqi people don't want to keep this guy alive (for fear that he'll return to power), do they not have the right to execute the man responsible for the deaths of thousands upon thousands? This isn't the Hague... ruthless dictators want to go to the Hague because they know there's no way in Hell that they'll be executed there. Doesn't that say something?

There's no gray. Saddam Hussein brutalized an entire nation and his neighbors. This issue is clearly black and white. You either commit those crimes or you don't. Hussein was hardly acting in self defense when he order the attacks on innocent civilians. I think it's funny how you sit there and assume that I'm President Bush's number 1 fan simply because I disagree with the Dutch school of thought. If you know anything about foreign policy, you would know that Bush (as well as his predecessors) are liberal in that respect.

Yeah right, the criminals from the Balkan are lining up at the border to come to The Hague!:wtf:

And you are right if the death penalty is in the law, it sure is lawful to execute. My personal opinion, and luckily indeed the majority in The Netherlands and Europe agree with me (but I wouldn't call it the Dutch school of thought, just as I wouldn't categorize your position as the American school of thought, grey areas remember!) is that I do not agree with a law that condones the death penalty and that's what this debate is about.

Btw killing in self defense or killing someone, who directly threatens the lifes of other people is again a whole other thing as injecting an unarmed and chained man to death, no matter how threatening he was before.

Btw to come back to the murder/kill controversy, so Jesus wasn't murdered at the cross, he was killed, since it wasn't unlawful, he had a trial, didn't he, and he was found guilty by a few more than 12 of his peers?

Also I don't think your Bush's number 1 fan, because you disagree with me or the Dutch school of thought, but because you consider any attack on his policies an attack on America!

[RalphyS]

This is not a very good argument. First of all, if you are right and there is no heaven or hell then I will never know any different after I die. But, if I am right and there is a heaven and a hell then you will know immediately after you die.

Yep, you'll die clueless, and I might meet a lot of interesting persons in hell, or maybe Budha was right and I will reincarnate or we both will end up in the muslim hell.

To be an atheist you have to have faith that the earth and universe appeared from nothing. To be a Christian I have to have faith that God was always here. Either way we both have to have faith in what we believe.

Wrong, science has calculated back to a moment of origin, a big bang theory, that seems credible. Do I know for sure, no, but I have yet to find a more solid explanation. What was before the big bang, I don't know, but most scientists think there was no before, since there was no such thing as time. I don't know, but I do not have blind faith in anything. Didn't the earth and universe appear from nothing in your book? The only difference is that you have faith that god made it appear from nothing, whereas I say 'I don't know' what the cause was for the origin, but I don't think it was anything described in any of the holy books that are around nowadays. I only have to deal with the question where did the universe come from, you have to deal with the question where did God come from? Does God have a God that created him?


Eye for an Eye was from the Old testement when God gave his law. These people had no law before this and needed some type of law to abide by..

Well let me educate you, as soon as people started living together, such a thing as laws came into existence.

I don't personally know where Judas is. It depends on if Judas really believed Jesus was the Son of God and had faith that he could forgive all sins. Only God knows our hearts.

Well it depends if you believe that it was Judas's mission to 'betray' God or not? Do you know that in the first gospel (Mark) Judas wasn't even personally mentioned as the 'traitor', it was just 'one of the twelve'.

[Ana4Stapp]

Well, seeing as you're defending Saddam Hussein... I don't think you defending Adolf Hitler is much of a stretch.


Sure and by your... (ilogical) logic you defending Saddam's death makes you a murderer isnt it? :rolleyes:


For once and for all: I AM NOT DEFENDING Saddam Hussein!!!!!! :mad1: Im defending the use of JUSTICE because Im not a barbarian ...

[Ana4Stapp]

Also I don't think your Bush's number 1 fan, because you disagree with me or the Dutch school of thought, but because you consider any attack on his policies an attack on America!]

Indeed and in opposite is constantly attacking other people countries...:eek:

[Ana4Stapp]

You want to talk stats? Look at Latin American countries where the death penalty is outlawed. They are plagued with alarming murder rates... ALARMING NUMBERS. It does make it easier for some people to kill if they know that they won't kill.
.


Wow Chase!!!! You are a genious! Lets advocate death penalty in Latin America...lets allow this...it will certainly finish the crimes here as the same way it was stopped in the US states where it is in practice...

It surprises me that YOU -who should know about the complexes causes of these crimes(poverty, social difference, bad conditions of life, all kind of governement's negligence regarding to people etc etc etc) simply ignore them...and think that killing the criminals... it will STOP ...It WONT!!!!!!


Anyway I think I need to show you some PROOF ---

http://www.antideathpenalty.org/reasons.html


http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/01/17/usdom12437.htm

[Chase]

Wow Chase!!!! You are a genious! Lets advocate death penalty in Latin America...lets allow this...it will certainly finish the crimes here as the same way it was stopped in the US states where it is in practice...

It surprises me that YOU -who should know about the complexes causes of these crimes(poverty, social difference, bad conditions of life, all kind of governement's negligence regarding to people etc etc etc) simply ignore them...and think that killing the criminals... it will STOP ...It WONT!!!!!!


Anyway I think I need to show you some PROOF ---

http://www.antideathpenalty.org/reasons.html


http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/01/17/usdom12437.htm

Your naive nihilism is always astonishing. There are 265 million people in the U.S., of course there is going to be crime. Yet, when governments warn their people about the dangers of visiting certain countries... one has to look at the root of what's going on there. Out of the top ten countries with the highest murder rates... five of them are South American (Honduras, Colombia, El Salvador, Venezuela, and Bolivia). I'm pretty sure a great deal of those countries have also abolished the death penalty. I mean, it's nice to know that someone can go rape and kill a little girl and get to live a full life... especially after they denied the right to live to someone else.

It is a deterrent. China has billions of people... and they practice the death penalty and even their murder rate isn't has high has some Latin American countries.

So, if someone raped and killed your daughter... you be content with him just sitting in prison. You would find closure in that. Call me crazy... but if someone did that to my child... I would probably want to kill the guy myself.

[Ana4Stapp]

Your naive nihilism is always astonishing. There are 265 million people in the U.S., of course there is going to be crime. Yet, when governments warn their people about the dangers of visiting certain countries... one has to look at the root of what's going on there. Out of the top ten countries with the highest murder rates... five of them are South American (Honduras, Colombia, El Salvador, Venezuela, and Bolivia). I'm pretty sure a great deal of those countries have also abolished the death penalty. I mean, it's nice to know that someone can go rape and kill a little girl and get to live a full life... especially after they denied the right to live to someone else.

It is a deterrent. China has billions of people... and they practice the death penalty and even their murder rate isn't has high has some Latin American countries.

So, if someone raped and killed your daughter... you be content with him just sitting in prison. You would find closure in that. Call me crazy... but if someone did that to my child... I would probably want to kill the guy myself.


I think you should try to make an effort in show some sense in your thought instead of calling me nihilist/terorist/nazist....etc...etc..etc...

but anywasy...to your answer...
If someone raped or killed my daughter/niece etc...of course killing this guy with my hands could pass though my head...ans its normal...I mean thsi is a passionate reaction. I mean a irational one...so I really understand it as one first and natural reaction to its odious crime. Its revenge. I cant blame you for thinking the same.

But you know we cant mix Revenge with Justice. They are different things. One refers to passion..the other refers to reasoning.

And for crimes rate: did you really read the links I put to you? :confused:

[Chase]

I think you should try to make an effort in show some sense in your thought instead of calling me nihilist/terorist/nazist....etc...etc..etc...

but anywasy...to your answer...
If someone raped or killed my daughter/niece etc...of course killing this guy with my hands could pass though my head...ans its normal...I mean thsi is a passionate reaction. I mean a irational one...so I really understand it as one first and natural reaction to its odious crime. Its revenge. I cant blame you for thinking the same.

But you know we cant mix Revenge with Justice. They are different things. One refers to passion..the other refers to reasoning.

And for crimes rate: did you really read the links I put to you? :confused:

You make it sound like justice is constant. It isn't. One form of justice does not transcend borders. Each culture has a different definition of what justice is. Putting someone in prison for life is also revenge... is it not? You're doing it to punish the person and to get back at them. It's revenge.

For the record... some of the most technologically advanced have the death penalty. Not bad for "barbarians," eh?

[Ana4Stapp]

You make it sound like justice is constant. It isn't. One form of justice does not transcend borders. Each culture has a different definition of what justice is. Putting someone in prison for life is also revenge... is it not? You're doing it to punish the person and to get back at them. It's revenge.

For the record... some of the most technologically advanced have the death penalty. Not bad for "barbarians," eh?

The first three prhases make some sense...but putting someone in prison isnt a thing called JUSTICE? :confused: or maybe you discored a new defi ition to it...Lets use a simple example to your new concept :I thought that 'punishing' a child for example her dad was educating -showing how wrong she was acting etc...but not using revenge...

A State condening someone to a prison jail isnt showing the consequence to wrong acts but using revenge...

As for the links...did you read that????

1)Executions cost more than life in prison.
$2 million per person vs. $500,000 (4x as much!). Free counsel for defense, for appeals, maximum security on a separate death row wing.

2)In fact, the murder rate in the US is 6 times that of Britain and 5 times that of Australia. Neither country has the DP. Texas has twice the murder rate of Wisconsin, a state that doesn't have the DP. Texas and Oklahoma have historically executed the most number of DR inmates, yet in 2003 their state murder rates increased, and both have murder rates higher than the national

[Chase]

The first three prhases make some sense...but putting someone in prison isnt a thing called JUSTICE? :confused: or maybe you discored a new defi ition to it...Lets use a simple example to your new concept :I thought that 'punishing' a child for example her dad was educating -showing how wrong she was acting etc...but not using revenge...

A State condening someone to a prison jail isnt showing the consequence to wrong acts but using revenge...

As for the links...did you read that????

1)Executions cost more than life in prison.
$2 million per person vs. $500,000 (4x as much!). Free counsel for defense, for appeals, maximum security on a separate death row wing.

2)In fact, the murder rate in the US is 6 times that of Britain and 5 times that of Australia. Neither country has the DP. Texas has twice the murder rate of Wisconsin, a state that doesn't have the DP. Texas and Oklahoma have historically executed the most number of DR inmates, yet in 2003 their state murder rates increased, and both have murder rates higher than the national

The population of America is like 4 times that of Britain... of course there are going to be murders. Look at how different American and Britain are... and even Australia and America. We have a lot of race riots, ethnic gangs, and drugs coming from south of the border. That alone will add to a murder rate.

Texas is like the second most populous state and Wisconsin is ranked 18th. The proportions in these comparisons don't even work. They're not equal comparisons. I mean, the majority of U.S. states have the death penalty. You gave two states. Maybe they are two exceptions. The fact that you're getting your information from a biased source makes me question it.

As for the financial burden... I've heard varying numbers. There are a lot more guys serving life in prison than are on death row. So, even if it's cheaper to have the guy serving life... multiply that by the large number of inmates who are serving life. That's still very expensive on taxpayers.

[RalphyS]

You make it sound like justice is constant. It isn't. One form of justice does not transcend borders. Each culture has a different definition of what justice is. Putting someone in prison for life is also revenge... is it not? You're doing it to punish the person and to get back at them. It's revenge.

For the record... some of the most technologically advanced have the death penalty. Not bad for "barbarians," eh?

As for the financial burden... I've heard varying numbers. There are a lot more guys serving life in prison than are on death row. So, even if it's cheaper to have the guy serving life... multiply that by the large number of inmates who are serving life. That's still very expensive on taxpayers.

Technological advancement has little to do with barbarism. Rome was the most advanced state in ancient times, yet we consider their gladiator fights as barbaric. And you yourself are committing the greatest barbarism by simply saying "let's kill the murderers, instead of locking them up, because it might be cheaper. What's the next step? Let's kill all rapists too, that might be cheaper too." Someone once said that the level of civilization of a nation can be measured by the way they treat their criminals. What's the best method for educating your children? Giving the good example! The same applies for a state and its citizens.

[Chase]

Technological advancement has little to do with barbarism. Rome was the most advanced state in ancient times, yet we consider their gladiator fights as barbaric. And you yourself are committing the greatest barbarism by simply saying "let's kill the murderers, instead of locking them up, because it might be cheaper. What's the next step? Let's kill all rapists too, that might be cheaper too." Someone once said that the level of civilization of a nation can be measured by the way they treat their criminals. What's the best method for educating your children? Giving the good example! The same applies for a state and its citizens.

No... no one here is saying "let's kill rapists." Some people think that the execution of a man who was responsible for thousands of murders is giving him what he deserves. I just think it's funny that you guys cry "bararism!" about my nation... but getting you to say one bad about a terrorist who shoots a blind folded woman in the back of the head is like pulling teeth.

What I also don't understand is that some of you strike as the type of people who believe in killing the unborn child... but when it comes to a man who has brutalized the lives of people... you believe his life is everso precious.

[RalphyS]

No... no one here is saying "let's kill rapists." Some people think that the execution of a man who was responsible for thousands of murders is giving him what he deserves. I just think it's funny that you guys cry "bararism!" about my nation... but getting you to say one bad about a terrorist who shoots a blind folded woman in the back of the head is like pulling teeth.

What I also don't understand is that some of you strike as the type of people who believe in killing the unborn child... but when it comes to a man who has brutalized the lives of people... you believe his life is everso precious.

First, I never stated that the USA was a barbaric nation, Ana thinks that the death penalty is barbaric, I wouldn't go that far, but I don't think a civilized nation should have a death penalty. I only commented on you saying that an advanced society could not be called barbaric.

Second, I have no problem calling the terrorists or Saddam barbarians, they are, but that doesn't mean we have to stoop to their level, if we lower our standards, because of the terrorists, the terrorists have already wun. Two wrongs don't make a right, if they stoop to barbaric levels, we should do anything to stop them, however without losing the civilization that we claim to fight for.

Third, there is no such thing as an unborn child imho.

[Chase]

First, I never stated that the USA was a barbaric nation, Ana thinks that the death penalty is barbaric, I wouldn't go that far, but I don't think a civilized nation should have a death penalty. I only commented on you saying that an advanced society could not be called barbaric.

Second, I have no problem calling the terrorists or Saddam barbarians, they are, but that doesn't mean we have to stoop to their level, if we lower our standards, because of the terrorists, the terrorists have already wun. Two wrongs don't make a right, if they stoop to barbaric levels, we should do anything to stop them, however without losing the civilization that we claim to fight for.

Third, there is no such thing as an unborn child imho.

Okay, sure... so... those premature babies are just a sack of lifeless bones then right? At the time that some mothers are giving birth prematurely, there are other people who are killing the child. When a woman is "with child" that means she's pregant. And when she's pregnant, there's another beating heart inside her. Tell me, is it more wrong to stop that beating heart than that of a genocidal tyrant? Everybody here has gone through the stage of being in a womb... and had you not been in there, you wouldn't be here today.

Executing a bloodthirsty murderer is not "barbaric." I understand your point... but the reality of the world is that there are still a lot of people who find closure and justice in knowing that the person who ruthlessly murdered their loved one is no longer living. I honestly don't see what the difference is if the police shoot and kill a man running around on a shooting spree. Many Iraqis still see executing Saddam Hussein as being done in self-defense because many of them have a credible fear that Hussein will return to power.

I can guarantee you that if World War II happened today in Europe... and a man like Adolf Hitler destroyed and conquered country after country... and killed six million Jews, there would be quite a large number of Europeans who would want the man dead. I mean, it's easier said than done... it really is. I have had friends and a family member who were murdered in cold blood... and trust me, you don't exactly have a self-righteous feeling of joy when thinking of the killer. I honestly don't see a jury or judicial system that decides to execute a cold blooded killer as "wrong."

[RalphyS]

Okay, sure... so... those premature babies are just a sack of lifeless bones then right? At the time that some mothers are giving birth prematurely, there are other people who are killing the child. When a woman is "with child" that means she's pregant. And when she's pregnant, there's another beating heart inside her. Tell me, is it more wrong to stop that beating heart than that of a genocidal tyrant? Everybody here has gone through the stage of being in a womb... and had you not been in there, you wouldn't be here today.

Premature babies aren't unborn, are they? They are BORN prematurely. And to be honest I'm certainly not saying that abortions are great, and especially abortions in the third trimester I do not approve of. It all has to do with intelligence and consciousness, sure I've been in the womb, so have you, but I can't remember it, can you? Therefore I cannot consider an embryo, especially in the early stages of a pregnancy a conscious, intelligent human being. Any animal is more intelligent and conscious than an embryo, so why don't you protest the slaughtering of cows, pigs or whatever? When is a human considered a separate entity for the judicial system? At the moment of birth, and I want it to stay that way. But I don't want this to turn into a abortion-thread, so if you want to discuss it more open a new thread.

Executing a bloodthirsty murderer is not "barbaric." I understand your point... but the reality of the world is that there are still a lot of people who find closure and justice in knowing that the person who ruthlessly murdered their loved one is no longer living. I honestly don't see what the difference is if the police shoot and kill a man running around on a shooting spree. Many Iraqis still see executing Saddam Hussein as being done in self-defense because many of them have a credible fear that Hussein will return to power.

So in fact were killing the criminals, because it makes the relatives/friends of the victim feel better, well why stop at murderer's than, wouldn't a raped woman feel better (find more closure and justice) if her rapist was executed?
And if we only kill murderers as punishment, why don't we rape rapists as punishment? Sure I understand that victims feel no love towards someone who caused them pain, but justice is a set of rules that we have to deal with those who break these rules. One of these rules is, killing is wrong, so I just don't see why breaking the rule twice is better than breaking it once.

And ofcourse there is a difference when there is a direct threat at hand that one or more other lifes are in danger, but Saddam isn't in a position to kill anyone at this time anymore and the same goes for convicted murderers in the USA. We often disagree on a lot, Chase, but claiming self defense against unarmed, chained people, you are not that dumb!

I can guarantee you that if World War II happened today in Europe... and a man like Adolf Hitler destroyed and conquered country after country... and killed six million Jews, there would be quite a large number of Europeans who would want the man dead. I mean, it's easier said than done... it really is. I have had friends and a family member who were murdered in cold blood... and trust me, you don't exactly have a self-righteous feeling of joy when thinking of the killer. I honestly don't see a jury or judicial system that decides to execute a cold blooded killer as "wrong."

I understand why people are in favor of the death penalty, and even here in Holland at this time it's near 40%, who are still in favor according to surveys, but me personally I am not and I do think it is "wrong" and I hope that if I ever came in a position, hopefully not, that someone, who I cared deeply for was murdered, that I will be able to stand by the convictions that I have now. I would hope to find a way to heal within myself and with the support system (friends/family) that I have, without needing another death to get 'closure'. What some people seem to forget is that murderers also have parents, sometimes children, who are (maybe for some, up to a point) innocent, but who will also be victimized if the murderer is executed. Do you wish the pain that you felt when losing your family member or friend upon anyone else, who is blameless? It isn't easy to take the moral highground and sure if someone strikes you, the first impulse is to strike back, but look at people like Martin Luther King, Gandhi and Jesus himself, and don't you find a sense of respect for that. That's what I mean by giving the good example, even when it's hard.

[metalchris25]

I say we take him out back and have no mercy on him.