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Old 05-25-2005, 09:10 PM   #121
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Last edited by Jester : 05-26-2005 at 05:29 AM.
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Old 05-25-2005, 10:59 PM   #122
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UD, I appreciate your answers to my stuff I said, but even if I gave U proof of the bible being witheld from the public to read and discern themselves, you would probably say that the source was unreliable or something so there's no point. I have a book right here in front of me. Bah! Has no chain action but I will work on that, cos I didnt get it from NOWHERE!

Most books on the reformation will attest to the fact that the church at the time was the authorised guardian and interpreter of the bible - interpretation i.e. meaning of the scriptures was held in the hands of the church heirarchy, and that the Christians were to accept and recieve those interpretations as the truth.

Point is that All Christians had to accept the official views of the church on matters of the text therein. Luther came along and challenged that by believing that the induvidual believer should have the right to read and discern its contents.

Through this belief, his views on the righteousness of God recieved through Christ Jesus found in the text of Romans, set many many many free from a doctrine that emphasised achieving, meriting and even downright purchasing eternal life and in this way, that church lost the central theme of the bible, and therefore, how could it be called the Christian Church??? he did us a favour.

Plus Jesus said to go forth into all the world and preach the good news to all, but to make the word spread, it would have to be translated into those "world"'s languages. The church at the time would not allow this. Supposedly Latin at the time was an elitist language, not for the common people, so to preach this good news to the poor, it would have to be translated! Again, he did us a favour.

You would be doing myself and Aussiecreeder a favour by withholding something though, your damning opinions of our denominations:
Quote: Do you believe you are in the Church of Jesus Christ, founded by Him two thousand years ago, standing against the Gates of Hell itself? Then why was your church founded sometime in the last couple hundred years?

See what you are implying here?

The truth is, UD, that "The gates of Hell" are actually the doorways of religion itself. It kills the truth that Jesus came to give.

I think its sad that U think I am going to hell cos I dont think that you are. Mainly because of the scripture that Luther made readily available to the masses:

JOHN 3:16
For God soooooo [emphasis mine] loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

NOT cos of the Church denomination that you belong to! Hellno! or rather: Hell? NO!
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Old 05-25-2005, 11:06 PM   #123
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OHOHOH!!! BTW, while I was refreshing my reformed mind here, I found this hillarious piece of poetry written in the late 1520's that I would like to share! I think it is soooo good, I am gonna start a new thread with it!!!!

Devil:
Monk on the latrine!
You shouldnt be reading matins here!
[prayer from a prayer book]
Monk:
I am purging my bowels
While worshipping Almighty God
You can have what goes down
While God gets what goes up.
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Old 05-25-2005, 11:18 PM   #124
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not really sure why i bother when no-one is going to change their minds but i'll try one more time. uncertain have a read of the book of luke for yourself and read the account of when he was told his mother and brothers were approaching. jesus says in a rather strange fashion that his mother and brothers are those who obey in faith or something to that effect. his literal mother (are we doubting he had a mother?) and brothers were there (james who wrote the book of james was the brother of jesus and the leader of the very early church NOT peter) and jesus used this to make his point.
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Old 05-26-2005, 09:02 AM   #125
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Quote: (Originally Posted by Sincirr) UD, I appreciate your answers to my stuff I said, but even if I gave U proof of the bible being witheld from the public to read and discern themselves, you would probably say that the source was unreliable or something so there's no point. I have a book right here in front of me. Bah! Has no chain action but I will work on that, cos I didnt get it from NOWHERE!

Most books on the reformation will attest to the fact that the church at the time was the authorised guardian and interpreter of the bible - interpretation i.e. meaning of the scriptures was held in the hands of the church heirarchy, and that the Christians were to accept and recieve those interpretations as the truth.

Point is that All Christians had to accept the official views of the church on matters of the text therein. Luther came along and challenged that by believing that the induvidual believer should have the right to read and discern its contents.

Through this belief, his views on the righteousness of God recieved through Christ Jesus found in the text of Romans, set many many many free from a doctrine that emphasised achieving, meriting and even downright purchasing eternal life and in this way, that church lost the central theme of the bible, and therefore, how could it be called the Christian Church??? he did us a favour.

Plus Jesus said to go forth into all the world and preach the good news to all, but to make the word spread, it would have to be translated into those "world"'s languages. The church at the time would not allow this. Supposedly Latin at the time was an elitist language, not for the common people, so to preach this good news to the poor, it would have to be translated! Again, he did us a favour.

You would be doing myself and Aussiecreeder a favour by withholding something though, your damning opinions of our denominations:

See what you are implying here?

The truth is, UD, that "The gates of Hell" are actually the doorways of religion itself. It kills the truth that Jesus came to give.

I think its sad that U think I am going to hell cos I dont think that you are. Mainly because of the scripture that Luther made readily available to the masses:

JOHN 3:16
For God soooooo [emphasis mine] loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

NOT cos of the Church denomination that you belong to! Hellno! or rather: Hell? NO!

I most certainly DO NOT think you are going to Hell. You are clearly a sinsere Christian and I would assume you will definitely be on your way to the Pearly Gates someday.

As for the Bible thing; I want to know wheat your source is. I do not immediately say it is unreliable just if it disagrees with my position. But you have not shown any sources yet so there surely aren't any reasons for me to believe it, and I have read plenty of books that have shown me how they WEREN'T chained up in the manner you are saying. (I mean, if you tell me your sources is "Roman Catholicism" or something ,THEN I wouldn't believe it, but I am rather sure you are more intelligent than to believe such an unscholarly book as that)

Also, the Church is STILL the interpreter of the Bible! Just like the Bible itself says "no scripture is a matter of private interpretation"!

What I meant by the One Church thing, is that Jesus obviously established a CHURCH. Now, are you going to honestly tell me He established the one you are in? I would hope so, because if He didn't, you are in the wrong Church, lol!
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Old 05-26-2005, 09:05 AM   #126
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Quote: (Originally Posted by aussiecreeder) not really sure why i bother when no-one is going to change their minds but i'll try one more time. uncertain have a read of the book of luke for yourself and read the account of when he was told his mother and brothers were approaching. jesus says in a rather strange fashion that his mother and brothers are those who obey in faith or something to that effect. his literal mother (are we doubting he had a mother?) and brothers were there (james who wrote the book of james was the brother of jesus and the leader of the very early church NOT peter) and jesus used this to make his point.

I am not sure of the specific verse you are speaking of, but OFTEN in the Bible, when they say "brothers", they do not meant it in the way we use it now. Quite often it means cousin, uncle, or even friend. But if you give me the exact passage I could elaborate.

Also, if James was the early leader of the Church, why was Peter the Rock upon which it was built? Why was Peter given the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven? Why was Peter the one told to feed Jesus lambs and feed His sheep? Just curious.

And I'm still wondering why you believe the Bible is the only rule of Faith when it never SAYS it is the only rule of faith...
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Old 05-26-2005, 09:41 AM   #127
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Matthew 11:46-50
Matthew 1 (saids Joseph didn't have sex with Mary UNTIL Jesus was born. Therefore she was not a virgin after this point. sex is also the consumation of marriage)
peter had a wife (jesus healed his mother in-law) so he was not the first pope. if he was still the first pope then the catholic doctine of clergy not marrying is clearly wrong.
John 7:1-5 (if his brothers are his disciples then why does it single out even his brothers didn't believe? clearly disciples and brothers is not one and the same)
Galatians 1:19-saids James is the Lord's brother.........
Matthew 13:53-57 ( clearly demolishes any arguement that jesus did not have literal brothers and sisters)

but really are you or anyone else going to change their minds. we can argue to we're blue in the face.........
but this is really a side issue to be honest. the main deal is how you or i or anyone else believes salavation occurs. can you do it by keeping the commandments? can you do it by following church tradition? is it in christ alone?
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She never told a lie,
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Didnít have a life.
Didnít have a life.
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Alright, now itís time for us to let you go.

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Old 05-26-2005, 10:04 AM   #128
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There is no Matthew 11:46-50.

Quote: (Originally Posted by aussiecreeder) the main deal is how you or i or anyone else believes salavation occurs. can you do it by keeping the commandments? can you do it by following church tradition? is it in christ alone?
Great, I'm glad you found a single topic to discuss. Now, explain how salvation occurs.
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Old 05-26-2005, 10:27 AM   #129
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Quote: (Originally Posted by aussiecreeder) Matthew 11:46-50
Matthew 1 (saids Joseph didn't have sex with Mary UNTIL Jesus was born. Therefore she was not a virgin after this point. sex is also the consumation of marriage)
peter had a wife (jesus healed his mother in-law) so he was not the first pope. if he was still the first pope then the catholic doctine of clergy not marrying is clearly wrong.
John 7:1-5 (if his brothers are his disciples then why does it single out even his brothers didn't believe? clearly disciples and brothers is not one and the same)
Galatians 1:19-saids James is the Lord's brother.........
Matthew 13:53-57 ( clearly demolishes any arguement that jesus did not have literal brothers and sisters)

but really are you or anyone else going to change their minds. we can argue to we're blue in the face.........
but this is really a side issue to be honest. the main deal is how you or i or anyone else believes salavation occurs. can you do it by keeping the commandments? can you do it by following church tradition? is it in christ alone?

Priestly Celbicay has not always been a practice of the Church, and could CHANGE if need be, although I think that would be a bad idea in this day and age. Of course Peter had a wife, that does not exclude him from being Pope. If that is your only reason, then it is a bad one.

The word "until" does not necessarily mean that afterward they would have. Other passages which use the word "until" but clearly do not mean that it changes afterward:

Matthew: 28:20
1 Timothy 4: 13, 6: 14
Romans 8: 22
Philemon 1: 5
Genesis 8: 5, 49: 10

As you can see, the "until" argument is groundless.

Also, "adelphos" does not mean "disciples", it means "kin". Jesus had kin, He just had no brothers or sisters.

It is funny that you mention Matthew: 55-56 as the cornerstone of your argument becuase it is the cornerstone of MY argument. Two of these "brothers" are in other places named as sons of a DIFFERENT Mary, Mary of Cleophas! Matthew: 27: 56, John 19: 25!

So, apparently, not only does your verse NOT prove Jesus had brothers, it is definitely a good verse for ME to use. NOWHERE in the Bible does it say Mary had other sons. Does it say Jesus had other kin, or "adelphos"? Yes, but that proves nothing.



Alright, Salvation. I believe we are saved through God's grace, manifesting itself in our Faith and Works. What about you?
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Old 05-27-2005, 12:12 AM   #130
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I am going to be away from Creedfeed for a while, so I am posting this link for those who want answers to questions such as the Church's position regarding the Bile.

I would also like to point out, that if not for the Monks in the dark, middle, and medieval ages, NO ONE would have any Bibles today, so thank goodness for the Catholic Church!

http://members.aol.com/johnprh/proctaim.html
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Old 05-27-2005, 01:16 PM   #131
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Quote: (Originally Posted by uncertaindrumer) I am going to be away from Creedfeed for a while, so I am posting this link for those who want answers to questions such as the Church's position regarding the Bile.

I would also like to point out, that if not for the Monks in the dark, middle, and medieval ages, NO ONE would have any Bibles today, so thank goodness for the Catholic Church!

http://members.aol.com/johnprh/proctaim.html
Amen And Amen HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA Thank Goodness For the catholic church
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