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Old 12-27-2004, 11:39 PM   #16
Higher_Desire
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8. When Donald Duck gets out of the shower, he puts a towel around his waist, but he never wears any pants. Why?
9. Why is it that when Bruce Banner turns into the Incredible Hulk, he gets huge and his shirt rips off, but his pants don't?
10. How far is up?
11. It is possible to be overwhelmed, and it is possible to be underwhelmed, but can you ever just be whelmed?
12. Why are there Interstates in Hawaii?
13. What is the point of Thanksgiving? The pilgrims and Indians didn't even celebrate it. They just ate together once.
14. If life evolved from a single-celled organism, where did that organism come from?
15a. Why do so many people think that Mormons in the 1800s were the only people that practiced polygimy?
15b. Why do so many people think that Mormons still practice polygimy?
15c. Why do so many people not know that polygimy was never a Mormon practice/commandment?
16. Who was the first person to say "Let's squeeze that thing under the cow and drink what comes out."?
17. If a cow laughs, will milk come out of it's nose?
18. Why doesn't anyone ever post in threads I create on this board?
19. Is the chihuahua really a dog?


H-D
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Today I'm gonna try a little harder
Gonna make every minute last longer
Gonna learn to forgive and forget
'Cause we don't have long
Gonna make the most of it

Today I'm gonna love my enemies
Reach out to somebody who needs me
Make a change, make the world a better place
'Cause tomorrow could be one day too late


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from their new album "Awake"
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Old 12-28-2004, 12:26 AM   #17
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8. When Donald Duck gets out of the shower, he puts a towel around his waist, but he never wears any pants. Why?
To dry himself off, du

9. Why is it that when Bruce Banner turns into the Incredible Hulk, he gets huge and his shirt rips off, but his pants don't?
The movie is rated PG-13, not XXX

10. How far is up?
As far as you want it to be

11. It is possible to be overwhelmed, and it is possible to be underwhelmed, but can you ever just be whelmed?
Yes

12. Why are there Interstates in Hawaii?
Because I said so

13. What is the point of Thanksgiving? The pilgrims and Indians didn't even celebrate it. They just ate together once.
Cheap holiday excuse to get off work

14. If life evolved from a single-celled organism, where did that organism come from?
Nobody knows, but they have theorys of the suns nuclear radiation + Water and oils.

15a. Why do so many people think that Mormons in the 1800s were the only people that practiced polygimy?
Because there stupid

15b. Why do so many people think that Mormons still practice polygimy?
Referr to Answer a

15c. Why do so many people not know that polygimy was never a Mormon practice/commandment?
Referr to answer a

16. Who was the first person to say "Let's squeeze that thing under the cow and drink what comes out."?
Well considering the baby calfs drink it to live and every mammal baby drinks it as a baby, it cant really be bad for you

17. If a cow laughs, will milk come out of it's nose?
No

18. Why doesn't anyone ever post in threads I create on this board?
Because your not me

19. Is the chihuahua really a dog?
No its a German secret weapon, half dog half rat super smart animal that serveys the area and sends them valuable information



YOU QUESTIONS ARE TO EAZY FOR ME
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Old 12-28-2004, 02:07 AM   #18
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Quote: (Originally Posted by Higher_Desire) 8. When Donald Duck gets out of the shower, he puts a towel around his waist, but he never wears any pants. Why?
9. Why is it that when Bruce Banner turns into the Incredible Hulk, he gets huge and his shirt rips off, but his pants don't?
10. How far is up?
11. It is possible to be overwhelmed, and it is possible to be underwhelmed, but can you ever just be whelmed?
12. Why are there Interstates in Hawaii?
13. What is the point of Thanksgiving? The pilgrims and Indians didn't even celebrate it. They just ate together once.
14. If life evolved from a single-celled organism, where did that organism come from?
15a. Why do so many people think that Mormons in the 1800s were the only people that practiced polygimy?
15b. Why do so many people think that Mormons still practice polygimy?
15c. Why do so many people not know that polygimy was never a Mormon practice/commandment?
16. Who was the first person to say "Let's squeeze that thing under the cow and drink what comes out."?
17. If a cow laughs, will milk come out of it's nose?
18. Why doesn't anyone ever post in threads I create on this board?
19. Is the chihuahua really a dog?


H-D

8. good question and what is he covering up? he doesn't have man parts!
9.maybe bruce banner doesn't have any man parts either
10.i'm not sure
11.no
12.good question, silly people eating too many coconuts instead of naming their roads with proper names.
13.to give thanks for what we have?
14.whole other thread but its because macro-evolution is the biggest fraud to ever hit the scientific community.
15a.who else was doing it? as far as i know the mormons are the only christian sect who believe we become gods and that jesus and satan were once brothers, and that dark people come from the third of angels who didn't fight valiantly enough.
15b.i don't believe its still practised but i'm convinced it would be if it was legal. after all what man wouldn't have more than one if he could hehe.
15c.it was never practised? i'm not convinced.....
16. a new zealander! *wink to hayley*
17.yes....yes it will
18.not sure
19.yes but because a cat can beat it up, its on very thin ice!
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Old 12-28-2004, 09:39 PM   #19
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Quote: (Originally Posted by aussiecreeder) 15a.who else was doing it?
It was a cultural practice. People had been trying to form laws against it for many years prior.
Quote: (Originally Posted by aussiecreeder) as far as i know the mormons are the only christian sect who believe we become gods and that jesus and satan were once brothers,
Well, God created all. Satan is referred to as "The Fallen Angel". He must have fallen from something, right? If God is the God of all, he must be over EVERYTHING.
Quote: (Originally Posted by aussiecreeder) and that dark people come from the third of angels who didn't fight valiantly enough.
Not quite. The Book of Mormon states that "the skin of their enemys were darkened." There is also anthropological evidence of warriors painting their bodies with dark black and brown paints when they went into battle. Also, it is shown that their skin was in ways permanently colored from the pigments of the paints. This could be the same thing that happened in this case.
Quote: (Originally Posted by aussiecreeder) 15b.i don't believe its still practised but i'm convinced it would be if it was legal. after all what man wouldn't have more than one if he could hehe.
True dat, but I can't even get ONE woman. I don't think there should be guys who take more away from me.
Quote: (Originally Posted by aussiecreeder) 15c.it was never practised? i'm not convinced.....
In the Bible, we read of people who practiced polygimy. We also read of "concubines." Concubines were not nececessarily prostitutes or whores, but WERE additional women in relationships. In each of these cases, men took more than one woman as wives to build the kingdom of God. This was the same thing that happened with some Mormon peoples in the 1800s. When an angel appeared to Joseph Smith requireing hem to do it, he refused. The angel eventually threatened him that if he did not obey the commandment from the Lord, he would be cut off from the work. It also took urging from his wife, Emma Hale-Smith, that he needed to do what the Lord asked. He eventually agreed. (You can read about this in some books about Joseph Smith.) Brigham Young also had more than one wife. So did Parley P. Pratt. So did many others, but in each case, it was only for a short time, and only to those commanded. It was NEVER commanded that everyone do it, and it has been and is still believed that marriage is "the sacred union between one man and one woman."


H-D
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Today I'm gonna try a little harder
Gonna make every minute last longer
Gonna learn to forgive and forget
'Cause we don't have long
Gonna make the most of it

Today I'm gonna love my enemies
Reach out to somebody who needs me
Make a change, make the world a better place
'Cause tomorrow could be one day too late


--lyrics from "One Day Too Late" by Skillet
from their new album "Awake"
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Old 12-28-2004, 09:52 PM   #20
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Quote: (Originally Posted by Higher_Desire) It was a cultural practice. People had been trying to form laws against it for many years prior.

Well, God created all. Satan is referred to as "The Fallen Angel". He must have fallen from something, right? If God is the God of all, he must be over EVERYTHING.

Not quite. The Book of Mormon states that "the skin of their enemys were darkened." There is also anthropological evidence of warriors painting their bodies with dark black and brown paints when they went into battle. Also, it is shown that their skin was in ways permanently colored from the pigments of the paints. This could be the same thing that happened in this case.

True dat, but I can't even get ONE woman. I don't think there should be guys who take more away from me.

In the Bible, we read of people who practiced polygimy. We also read of "concubines." Concubines were not nececessarily prostitutes or whores, but WERE additional women in relationships. In each of these cases, men took more than one woman as wives to build the kingdom of God. This was the same thing that happened with some Mormon peoples in the 1800s. When an angel appeared to Joseph Smith requireing hem to do it, he refused. The angel eventually threatened him that if he did not obey the commandment from the Lord, he would be cut off from the work. It also took urging from his wife, Emma Hale-Smith, that he needed to do what the Lord asked. He eventually agreed. (You can read about this in some books about Joseph Smith.) Brigham Young also had more than one wife. So did Parley P. Pratt. So did many others, but in each case, it was only for a short time, and only to those commanded. It was NEVER commanded that everyone do it, and it has been and is still believed that marriage is "the sacred union between one man and one woman."


H-D

this is not the faith and religion section but i'm happy to have a friendly debate on the subject. joseph smith had 40 wives whilst brigham young had 60 wives. so the founder and great prophet of this religion had between them 100 wives!

no where in the scriptures does it state or even hint that jesus and satan were somehow biologically linked or via some quasi-spirtual state. it saids that satan or lucifer was the highest of the archangels and he led a rebellion and a third of the angels went with him. no where is there a 3rd class and that third class become black people is downright racist. there is really no-one such as races according to biologists and many "black" people would be closer to genetically to me than my white "cousins". it simply doesn't stand up to the scientific evidence availiable to us in modern science.

yes its true that concubines were a common occurence particulary with men like solomon but it was never a commandment and in fact it goes directly against "one man and one woman" like you stated from adam and eve. this mormon theology then goes directly against scripture.

talking about scripture mormonism i understand teaches that scriptures were lost and changed and joseph smith was to reverse this and teach truth. the only problem here is that we have new testament manuscripts from the 2nd century A.D and old testament writings from very early on and its clear that changes were not made, at least those affecting doctrine.

another problem i have with mormonism is that in the book of abraham joseph smith apparently interpreted some egyptian hierogryphics (sp) and stated it was to do with abraham. this was all well and good until modern archologists and anthropologists can state categorically that these describe embalming procedures and i believe joseph smith was a false prophet. we all have our beliefs and you're unlikely to change because of what i've stated here but i believe christianity is the one true religion and fits the evidence best, whilst mormonism has big gaping holes in theology, science and the like.

anyhow good talking to ya......
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Didnít have a life.
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Alright, now itís time for us to let you go.

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Last edited by aussiecreeder : 12-28-2004 at 10:24 PM.
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Old 12-28-2004, 10:22 PM   #21
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poor jospeh dude was a little mixed up, I Mean After Having 40 Or So Wives That Would Mess Anybody Up,,,,HAAAAAAAAAAAAA No I,ve Read The Book..And I Find A Lot Of Truth In It And Then I Find Falsehood...AND THE TRUTH THE WAY AND THE LIGHT..Will Always Pour it out Mix It All Up And Show You The Truth,
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Old 12-29-2004, 04:30 PM   #22
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Quote: (Originally Posted by aussiecreeder) this is not the faith and religion section but i'm happy to have a friendly debate on the subject. joseph smith had 40 wives whilst brigham young had 60 wives. so the founder and great prophet of this religion had between them 100 wives!

What's your point?
Quote: (Originally Posted by aussiecreeder) no where in the scriptures does it state or even hint that jesus and satan were somehow biologically linked or via some quasi-spirtual state. it saids that satan or lucifer was the highest of the archangels and he led a rebellion and a third of the angels went with him
But if God is the father of all, and Satan was an archangel, he had to have been under God. There is no power equal to God's, so if we are all children of the same father, which are we the children of? God or Satan? One of them has to be more powerful, and we are therefore their children.
Quote: (Originally Posted by aussiecreeder) no where is there a 3rd class and that third class become black people is downright racist. there is really no-one such as races according to biologists and many "black" people would be closer to genetically to me than my white "cousins". it simply doesn't stand up to the scientific evidence availiable to us in modern science.
I'm not being racist. I am not racist. There is evidence that supports this.
Quite a lot of Mayan art shows dark and light skinned peoples. The Bureau of American Ethnology calls this "wearing the skins of one's enemy," and dismisses it as as religious ceremony without explaining where the dark skins came from in the first place! On the north coast of Peru, from 400-1000 AD, a culture called the Moche or Mochica flourished. According to modern archeologists, the Moche painted thier bodies black before going into battle.
Quote: (Originally Posted by aussiecreeder) yes its true that concubines were a common occurence particulary with men like solomon but it was never a commandment and in fact it goes directly against "one man and one woman" like you stated from adam and eve. this mormon theology then goes directly against scripture.
But, as I said, it was used for the building of the kingdom, and only for a short time. They did not permanently stay married to all of them. Yes, Joseph Smith did have near 40 wives, but that was only at one point. He didn't marry each one for, like, 50 years. In most cases, it was around 5 years. Plus, did he really have kids with all of them? As I also said before, it was only to those commanded by God. Not everyone did it. And it wasn't forever.
Quote: (Originally Posted by aussiecreeder) talking about scripture mormonism i understand teaches that scriptures were lost and changed and joseph smith was to reverse this and teach truth. the only problem here is that we have new testament manuscripts from the 2nd century A.D and old testament writings from very early on and its clear that changes were not made, at least those affecting doctrine.
In a sence that's true, but not completly. It's not so much that they say it was translated wrong, so much as it is that they don't know what is exactly right. There is no exact way of knowing exactly what was written by ancient peoples becuase they didn't leave a translator into english. For many years, archeological remains were stored in secret places in museums and such, and no one knew what many of them said until the Rosetta stone was found, which helped translate. If you ever take an anthropology course in college (even an introductory one) they will tell you that the way archeologists decide what things say, they all come forward with a bunch of ideas, and then vote on which to say it is. At least that's what my professor told us. And she is not religious in any way.
Quote: (Originally Posted by aussiecreeder) another problem i have with mormonism is that in the book of abraham joseph smith apparently interpreted some egyptian hierogryphics (sp) and stated it was to do with abraham. this was all well and good until modern archologists and anthropologists can state categorically that these describe embalming procedures and i believe joseph smith was a false prophet.
Refer to previous answer
Quote: (Originally Posted by aussiecreeder) we all have our beliefs and you're unlikely to change because of what i've stated here
Absolutely true. As we've ended in other threads before, we have to agree to disagree. In the end, God will judge all as he sees fit.
Quote: (Originally Posted by aussiecreeder) but i believe christianity is the one true religion and fits the evidence best, whilst mormonism has big gaping holes in theology, science and the like.
Actually, Mormonism is a sect of Christianity. Just like Methodists, Presbiterians, Episcopalians, and many others. Mormons are Christians.
Quote: (Originally Posted by aussiecreeder) anyhow good talking to ya......
Yeah. Same here. I like it when people challenge my religion. So far, the answers I have found satisfy me. One of my personal opinions is that if a religion can withstand the tests, there must be truth there. In the end, who goes to Heaven is God's decision. Mormonism may not be perfect, but it works for me. (and a couple other people on the board)


H-D
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Today I'm gonna try a little harder
Gonna make every minute last longer
Gonna learn to forgive and forget
'Cause we don't have long
Gonna make the most of it

Today I'm gonna love my enemies
Reach out to somebody who needs me
Make a change, make the world a better place
'Cause tomorrow could be one day too late


--lyrics from "One Day Too Late" by Skillet
from their new album "Awake"
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Old 12-29-2004, 09:56 PM   #23
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Quote: (Originally Posted by Higher_Desire) What's your point?

But if God is the father of all, and Satan was an archangel, he had to have been under God. There is no power equal to God's, so if we are all children of the same father, which are we the children of? God or Satan? One of them has to be more powerful, and we are therefore their children.

I'm not being racist. I am not racist. There is evidence that supports this.
Quite a lot of Mayan art shows dark and light skinned peoples. The Bureau of American Ethnology calls this "wearing the skins of one's enemy," and dismisses it as as religious ceremony without explaining where the dark skins came from in the first place! On the north coast of Peru, from 400-1000 AD, a culture called the Moche or Mochica flourished. According to modern archeologists, the Moche painted thier bodies black before going into battle.

But, as I said, it was used for the building of the kingdom, and only for a short time. They did not permanently stay married to all of them. Yes, Joseph Smith did have near 40 wives, but that was only at one point. He didn't marry each one for, like, 50 years. In most cases, it was around 5 years. Plus, did he really have kids with all of them? As I also said before, it was only to those commanded by God. Not everyone did it. And it wasn't forever.

In a sence that's true, but not completly. It's not so much that they say it was translated wrong, so much as it is that they don't know what is exactly right. There is no exact way of knowing exactly what was written by ancient peoples becuase they didn't leave a translator into english. For many years, archeological remains were stored in secret places in museums and such, and no one knew what many of them said until the Rosetta stone was found, which helped translate. If you ever take an anthropology course in college (even an introductory one) they will tell you that the way archeologists decide what things say, they all come forward with a bunch of ideas, and then vote on which to say it is. At least that's what my professor told us. And she is not religious in any way.

Refer to previous answer

Absolutely true. As we've ended in other threads before, we have to agree to disagree. In the end, God will judge all as he sees fit.

Actually, Mormonism is a sect of Christianity. Just like Methodists, Presbiterians, Episcopalians, and many others. Mormons are Christians.

Yeah. Same here. I like it when people challenge my religion. So far, the answers I have found satisfy me. One of my personal opinions is that if a religion can withstand the tests, there must be truth there. In the end, who goes to Heaven is God's decision. Mormonism may not be perfect, but it works for me. (and a couple other people on the board)


H-D


if you have enough of this discussion say so, but i'm willing to keep at this because i honestly believe there is error here. when the scriptures say we are children of the ruler of this world (ie satan) its not biologically but in a spirtual sense until/if that person is saved via grace through faith. There is simply NOTHING in the bible which points to Jesus and Satan being brothers (or Jesus having one plan for salvation and Satan other in fact there was no need for human salavation until Satan came along) and the whole premise of this belief stands and falls with Jospeh Smith. Would you agree that if Joseph Smith is shown to be a false prophet the whole religion falls?

The colour of people's skin has nothing to do with what angels they came from. A simple genetics course will tell you its all genetics and so this doesn't stand up to the very simple laws of science. If this theory (not a theory in the scientific sense) were true you would expect great differences in the races but no such divisions exist as I stated earlier.

It is historical fact that Joseph Smith was killed by gunfire after trying to escape after being imprisioned for polygamy (what happened to obeying the laws of caesar?). If he was so sure of his eternal fate why would he be willing to shoot others to stay alive? Look at Paul for example who had no fear of death whatsoever, same deal with all of the other 12 apostles after Christ's ascension.

We know exactly what the texts say from their orignal languages of Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek because we can translate them. They were not changed (at least not affecting doctrine there were words here and there) and so Smith was just plainly wrong. Same deal with the Book of Abraham and the Egyptian illustrations, we know he was wrong.

You are right in that God will judge us all but I was fairly sure Mormons would not few other "christians" as christians if you get what i'm saying. Most evanglicals would not view the Church of Christ and Later Day Saints as a true church. Anyhow good talking to ya......
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Well, might of told a lie.
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Didnít have a life.
Didnít have a life.
But surely saved one.
Alright, now itís time for us to let you go.

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Old 12-29-2004, 11:33 PM   #24
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Quote: (Originally Posted by aussiecreeder) if you have enough of this discussion say so, but i'm willing to keep at this because i honestly believe there is error here. when the scriptures say we are children of the ruler of this world (ie satan) its not biologically but in a spirtual sense until/if that person is saved via grace through faith. There is simply NOTHING in the bible which points to Jesus and Satan being brothers (or Jesus having one plan for salvation and Satan other in fact there was no need for human salavation until Satan came along) and the whole premise of this belief stands and falls with Jospeh Smith.
I think what this comes down to is that we just have our own different opinions. As humans, we have the power of thinking, and people think differently. There's always more than one opinion. I just believe it makes sence given that since we are told he was and angel, and as the Bible states, we are all children of the same father, and that includes Lucifer.

Also, I also don't mind keeping the discussion open so long as it is done in a respectful manner, and doesn't turn into finger pointing, he-said/she-said, there's no chance for you, yadda yadda yadda that's happened in the past.
Quote: (Originally Posted by aussiecreeder) Would you agree that if Joseph Smith is shown to be a false prophet the whole religion falls?
Absolutely. The whole premise our church is built on is that God and Jesus Christ appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the sacred grove. Even our President, Gordon B. Hinckley, has stated that if that did not happen, then this is the greatest apostacy that has ever happened. He has also stated that if it did happen, then this is the singlemost greatest work to ever occur.

Also, it must be LIGITAMENT proof against him. Not one or two half points that are not part of the big picture.
Quote: (Originally Posted by aussiecreeder) The colour of people's skin has nothing to do with what angels they came from. A simple genetics course will tell you its all genetics and so this doesn't stand up to the very simple laws of science. If this theory (not a theory in the scientific sense) were true you would expect great differences in the races but no such divisions exist as I stated earlier.
I never said the color of people's skin had to do with what angel they came from. I'm not sure where you picked that up.
Quote: (Originally Posted by aussiecreeder) It is historical fact that Joseph Smith was killed by gunfire after trying to escape after being imprisioned for polygamy (what happened to obeying the laws of caesar?).
Not quite. He wasn't trying to escape, and he was not in prison for polygimy. He was in prison many times because people saw him as a false prophet and wanted to get rid of him. He was shot and killed by a mob who thought he was false and leading people away from God. And about the law of Caesar, if we still had to obey all the same laws they use to, why are we not offering burnt sacrifices?
Quote: (Originally Posted by aussiecreeder) If he was so sure of his eternal fate why would he be willing to shoot others to stay alive? Look at Paul for example who had no fear of death whatsoever, same deal with all of the other 12 apostles after Christ's ascension.
When did he shoot people? He was not afraid to die. As he was going to be put to death (one of many times) he said "I am going like a lamb to the slaughter, but I am calm as a summer's morning. I have a mind devoid of hostility to God or my fellow man." It is true that he tried to hide in the room (as did the others in there), but wouldn't you hide if a bunch of guys came charging at you and trying to shoot you? Just because he wasn't afraid to die, didn't mean he wanted to die.
Quote: (Originally Posted by aussiecreeder) We know exactly what the texts say from their orignal languages of Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek because we can translate them. They were not changed (at least not affecting doctrine there were words here and there) and so Smith was just plainly wrong. Same deal with the Book of Abraham and the Egyptian illustrations, we know he was wrong.
Yes, we do know how to translate Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek, but the writings he translated from were NOT any of those three. They are only what have been described as "Egyptian-like in nature." THAT is what I was talking about that no one knows EXACTLY what it says. No one in any country with any degree from any school knows precisely what it says.
Quote: (Originally Posted by aussiecreeder) You are right in that God will judge us all but I was fairly sure Mormons would not few other "christians" as christians if you get what i'm saying.
Not sure that I understand. We are Christian. There's no way around that. Who's to decide who is the most "Christian."
Quote: (Originally Posted by aussiecreeder) Most evanglicals would not view the Church of Christ and Later Day Saints as a true church. Anyhow good talking to ya......
Well, to each his own. And for future reference (only personal nit-picking here), the full name is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.


H-D
__________________

Today I'm gonna try a little harder
Gonna make every minute last longer
Gonna learn to forgive and forget
'Cause we don't have long
Gonna make the most of it

Today I'm gonna love my enemies
Reach out to somebody who needs me
Make a change, make the world a better place
'Cause tomorrow could be one day too late


--lyrics from "One Day Too Late" by Skillet
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Old 12-30-2004, 04:13 AM   #25
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This is a massive case of

too long didnt read
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Old 12-30-2004, 07:32 PM   #26
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higher desire i'm open to keep this going and i won't start the finger pointing. what this boils down to me is that jospeh smith stated that the true message was lost through the ages and the corruption of the church perhaps in the medieval period. the problem here is that this is plainly false because we have the ancient texts and we can prove they were not changed at least to any degree worth worrying about.

if joseph translated from a language other than those three and its a language that we can't translate fully (like we can for those three) then how is anyone supposed to make sure it says what joseph said it says? the golden tablets apparently came and gone so we can't check those. with the christian bible we can check all of those writings and other texts that are not believed to be inspiried that are mentioned in the new testament by paul for example.

if you look at charecters like paul and peter (well peter after christ's ascension) you will see zero fear of death and they never hid from anyone and john the baptist you may remember called the religious leaders a "brood of vipers" and pointed out herod's adultery and was killed for it.
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Old 12-30-2004, 09:03 PM   #27
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Quote: (Originally Posted by aussiecreeder) higher desire i'm open to keep this going and i won't start the finger pointing. what this boils down to me is that jospeh smith stated that the true message was lost through the ages and the corruption of the church perhaps in the medieval period. the problem here is that this is plainly false because we have the ancient texts and we can prove they were not changed at least to any degree worth worrying about.
The TEXTS were not changed. The way the texts were PREACHED and the practices of the people were what changed and corrupted early churches. That's what Martin Luther was rebelling against way back when and led the reformation for into Lutheranism. Than he began to set it back to how it was. That's kind of the same as what happened with Joseph Smith.
Quote: (Originally Posted by aussiecreeder) if joseph translated from a language other than those three and its a language that we can't translate fully (like we can for those three)
Yeah. That's what I told you.
Quote: (Originally Posted by aussiecreeder) then how is anyone supposed to make sure it says what joseph said it says? the golden tablets apparently came and gone so we can't check those.
Like I said before, we don't know exactly what they said. That's why there's so much controversy among opposing sides. It's a matter of faith.
Quote: (Originally Posted by aussiecreeder) with the christian bible we can check all of those writings and other texts that are not believed to be inspiried that are mentioned in the new testament by paul for example.
What do you mean "christian bible"? The bible is the bible. Sure there's different translations, like the King James, New King James, New International, New Revised Standard, Good News, and all the countless others, but they're used in many religions. I don't think I understand what you're saying in the second half. Mormons use the Bible just like the Book of Mormon; they're companions to each other. There are parallels between them and support each other. As for the Bible supporting claims that the BoM is false... in any situation, you can find ways to make anything match your view. Sure there may be some contridictory things, but there's supportive things too. The bible says different things in different areas that contradict itself, so are we to believe that the Bible is therefore false? I don't think so. Just as the Bible was written by different people (aka Prophets), so was the Book of Mormon.
Quote: (Originally Posted by aussiecreeder) if you look at charecters like paul and peter (well peter after christ's ascension) you will see zero fear of death and they never hid from anyone
Let me ask you this... Are you afraid to die AND do you want to die? Just becuase you're not afraid doesn't mean your going to go out looking to get shot. If someone a group of people came yelling at you with guns, wouldn't you do something to protect yourself? Paul and Peter weren't afraid of dying, but do you seriously think they were wanting or wishing to die?
Quote: (Originally Posted by aussiecreeder) and john the baptist you may remember called the religious leaders a "brood of vipers" and pointed out herod's adultery and was killed for it.
Yeah. Once again, not everyone who had more than one wife was doing for "the right reason" as commanded by God. Just like now, there's guys in many countries, including America, that have more than one wife. Does that mean they're doing it in the same way as everyone else? And, there are opposing views on every topic.

Look, remember that we're talking here about three very different times. Around 35 A.D. (after Christ's death), 1800s A.D. (Joseph Smith's time) and 2000s A.D. (our time). Things aren't going to be exactly the same all the way throughout; word-for-word, letter-for-letter, number-for-number. If it was the same, we'd be living in a cave somewhere still amazed with these wonderful new inventions of fire and wheels.
God changes things. His laws change. For example; the Law of Moses, which included offering burnt sacrifices to the Lord. After the crusixion of Christ, that was done away with because Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice, the most perfect lamb, and no sacrifice could match up. So because one great thing happened, the law was changed.

Do you understand?


Quote: (Originally Posted by King X) This is a massive case of

too long didnt read
So it makes perfect sence to post something, right?


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Old 12-30-2004, 11:14 PM   #28
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Quote: (Originally Posted by Higher_Desire) The TEXTS were not changed. The way the texts were PREACHED and the practices of the people were what changed and corrupted early churches. That's what Martin Luther was rebelling against way back when and led the reformation for into Lutheranism. Than he began to set it back to how it was. That's kind of the same as what happened with Joseph Smith.

Yeah. That's what I told you.

Like I said before, we don't know exactly what they said. That's why there's so much controversy among opposing sides. It's a matter of faith.

What do you mean "christian bible"? The bible is the bible. Sure there's different translations, like the King James, New King James, New International, New Revised Standard, Good News, and all the countless others, but they're used in many religions. I don't think I understand what you're saying in the second half. Mormons use the Bible just like the Book of Mormon; they're companions to each other. There are parallels between them and support each other. As for the Bible supporting claims that the BoM is false... in any situation, you can find ways to make anything match your view. Sure there may be some contridictory things, but there's supportive things too. The bible says different things in different areas that contradict itself, so are we to believe that the Bible is therefore false? I don't think so. Just as the Bible was written by different people (aka Prophets), so was the Book of Mormon.

Let me ask you this... Are you afraid to die AND do you want to die? Just becuase you're not afraid doesn't mean your going to go out looking to get shot. If someone a group of people came yelling at you with guns, wouldn't you do something to protect yourself? Paul and Peter weren't afraid of dying, but do you seriously think they were wanting or wishing to die?

Yeah. Once again, not everyone who had more than one wife was doing for "the right reason" as commanded by God. Just like now, there's guys in many countries, including America, that have more than one wife. Does that mean they're doing it in the same way as everyone else? And, there are opposing views on every topic.

Look, remember that we're talking here about three very different times. Around 35 A.D. (after Christ's death), 1800s A.D. (Joseph Smith's time) and 2000s A.D. (our time). Things aren't going to be exactly the same all the way throughout; word-for-word, letter-for-letter, number-for-number. If it was the same, we'd be living in a cave somewhere still amazed with these wonderful new inventions of fire and wheels.
God changes things. His laws change. For example; the Law of Moses, which included offering burnt sacrifices to the Lord. After the crusixion of Christ, that was done away with because Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice, the most perfect lamb, and no sacrifice could match up. So because one great thing happened, the law was changed.

Do you understand?





H-D

i understand fully what you are saying but i do not see the mormonism is a return to truth like luther, calvin and others were for their day. luther and his contempories were rebelling against the catholic church and how tradition had become more important than what the scriptures say. they did not add new doctrines like joseph smith so clearly did. furthermore the new testament instructs us to test all spirits and prophets. how is one supposed to test smith when we can't translate the language fully? it is impossible to verify the truth or otherwise of his sayings other than on blind faith.

the bible never instructs blind faith and reasoning is certainly not excluded from faith and quite the opposite in fact. if smith was so sure of the truth of what he said he shouldn't have acted in the way he did. have a look at christ when he rebuked peter for cutting the ear off a soldier and how he had no fear before pilate or as the roman soliders spat on him and treated him like a dog. why do we need a secondary authority like the book of mormon when 2 timothy 3:16 saids that all scripture is useful for teaching, rebuking......and revelation instructs not to add or take away from the holy scriptures and this is added instruction?

anyhow see ya round and have a good new years.....
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Old 12-31-2004, 12:24 AM   #29
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Quote: (Originally Posted by King X) This is a massive case of

too long didnt read
I Love Reading Massive Cases , ive already give my opion on this subject before, but hey i will read it, with delight, as a matter of fact i would like to know everybodys opion on jehovha witness, they to have a few good pointers, you know, : You Massive Little ASS,
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Old 12-31-2004, 02:35 AM   #30
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Quote: (Originally Posted by creedsister) I Love Reading Massive Cases , ive already give my opion on this subject before, but hey i will read it, with delight, as a matter of fact i would like to know everybodys opion on jehovha witness, they to have a few good pointers, you know, : You Massive Little ASS,

lol sorry you'll have to explain that last part to me! i have found jw's are very knowledgable but how they interept certain passages just baffles me.
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