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Old 12-16-2009, 12:21 AM   #1
Faithwalker012
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Signs, Signs, Everywhere There's Signs

You know, I was in the restroom at Wal-Mart recently, and this is where I go into some pretty graphic detail, so you might want to send the kids to bed.

Ok, I'm kidding, but here's the thing. I was in the restroom and written on the stall door was "Jesus is Coming Soon". Now I guess my first reaction, as I've been trained or schooled maybe a little too well was to say or write back in response, "Yes He is, but which one are you talking about?" Now, naturally I didn't write that. Unfortunately I didn't have a pen.

The next day I'm driving along and I see on a church sign "Make sure the rapture is a family affair".

Now we've all seen, or most of us have anyway, little signs and bumper stickers on the back of cars little sayings about the rapture. When I was in college this girl I knew was wearing a t-shirt one day that said "In case of rapture, this t-shirt will be unmanned.

Now, a lot of people will talk about the rapture and you get this mass picture of chaos really, where thousands or millions of people disappear around the world, and you literally do have drivers of moving vehicles disappear and people vanishing out of their clothes into thin air, as there's accidents all over the roadways and mass panic and confusion as loved ones around the world disappear.

Now first of all, I might ask, what kind of God would bring a scenario like that about? I mean really if you think about it, millions of people disappearing, car crashes and probably deaths as a result on the highways, people in a world wide panic and going out of their minds and you would say it was God who brought all that to pass? Now it is true that God can execute some pretty stern judgment on people if they deserve it, and it is true that I'm sure the plagues of the Egyptians, or on the Egyptians, those were no doubt very rough, and they came from God.

But let's think for moment about this whole idea of the rapture and where it comes from. You know, I'll bet sadly enough if you were to take a poll or ask most Christians if they believe in the rapture, they would say yes. But then, if you were to ask most of those same people where it mentions the rapture in the bible, they would probably say something along the lines of "Well, I don't really know, but I know my pastor says it's in there, and I know so and so on the tv is talking about it all the time, so, it's in there somewhere, I just don't know where."

Well, unfortunately they don't know where because they go to church perhaps every Sunday or whenever, they do in all likelihood love the Lord, but they sit there and listen to a man (or woman) go on for 30 or 40 minutes, or however long, they take that individual's word for it that they know the truth and what they're talking about, and they never bother to examine the Word for themselves. Hey, I've been there. When it comes down to it, most of my life I've been there. But you know, if you never advance beyond that stage, you never really grow as a Christian. You might be saved, you might very well be going to heaven. But what do you really know yourself, and more to the point, what can you teach to someone else who maybe is looking for, yearning for that truth? Unfortunately probably not a lot. I'm going to come back to this hopefully tomorrow. Right now, I need to get some more Christmas cards done for our people at work.

Jason
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Old 12-16-2009, 03:54 AM   #2
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Re: Signs, Signs, Everywhere There's Signs

Oh I need to do that as well!!! In fact I have them right here with me!!! Woot! Not so woot writing them all tho...hehe.

Yeh well I have seen 2 separate verses that the rapturists use and they do make me think...but the way people go on about it, and a couple of other topics that i WONT MENTION, we are wasting sooo much time arguing about something that is yet to happen, when we have been told to love God and others and go out into the world...etc....

Its just another argument that the enemy is using against different denominations to waste our time not doing what we should be.
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Old 12-16-2009, 08:16 PM   #3
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Re: Signs, Signs, Everywhere There's Signs

got ya number of the bathroom wall a lot of things one can find on a bathroom wall Glory To God No BUT SERIUS jason brother this reminds me of a story of a bathroom wall i came acrossed in a departmeant store i wont say the store because i wish to keep my bargians a secret Alrighty there was this entire topic On fogiveness JUST Entire Argumeant Going Back And Forth Between To Writers On This Bathroom Wall And Im Reading It And As I Recall It Was On The Topic Of Forgivness On Homosexuals Thats A Topic That Is Irelvent At The Momeant, Because We Are On The Topic Of Rapture what i found strange Is how this topic started on the bathroom wall So dug In My Purse And Got Out My Pen And Put My Thoughts And Opions There As Well And Somebody Else Came In And Wrote Im Praying For The Person That Took The Time To Read All Of This And I wrote something there To Remind Myself AND I forgot About It Came Back In One Day GLORY TO GOD And It Minstered To Me I Just Thought It Would Be Interesting To Bring Up Anyways Back To The Topic Of Rapture PRAISE JESUS
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Old 12-16-2009, 08:44 PM   #4
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Re: Signs, Signs, Everywhere There's Signs

i 100 percent agree jason with your views First Of All I might Ask What Kind Of God Would Bring A Scenairo Like That About ? World Chaos And Then You Said Well Unfortunatley they dont know where to look Never Bother To Examine The Word For Themeselves and you said about teaching someone yearing for truth PRAISE JESUS the word does indeed talk of rapture Although the word rapture is never mentioned glory to God another word for rapture IS TO BE TAKEN or be uplifted To A Higher Place THAT Is Not Of This World , although the rapture has been a misconception when weighed by mens point of views THE WORD SAYS Brother Im sure Ya know it well ONE WILL BE ON A ROOF TOP THE OTHER LEFT STANDING JESUS SAID He taught The People In parables Because They Could,nt See Nor Hear What THE SPIRT SAYS First Of All What You,ve Said In Your Post Brother THE BIBLE IS SPIRTURAL It His SPIRT That Leads Us Through The Word Of God GLORY TO GOD We Must Beware Of SUPERFICAL Opions There Has Been many Books Wrote About The Rapture And Movies As Well Like The Word Of God It Still Remains A Mystery And Brother And In My Opion On The Rapture THE WORD SAYS Those That Are ALIVE IN CHRIST Shall Be Taken WITH Him In The Clouds I find A Lot Of Us In Rapture right now brother JUST BY BELEVING THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS INSIDE US AND ALL AROUND US When He Calls Me Call Me Gone ya know im not going be thinking of this world Rather It Be In The Word Of God Or On My Kness Or In Battle There Are A Lot Of Opions Concering The Rapture Just a glorious groovey topic you brought up i look foward to hearing more on this topic PRAISE JESUS And guys be looking for Xmas cards After the new year been busy if ya dont get,em in by this week they going be late anyways so ya,alls dont rush Peace Be With Ya,s
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Old 12-18-2009, 04:51 PM   #5
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Re: Signs, Signs, Everywhere There's Signs

Quote: (Originally Posted by Sincirr) Oh I need to do that as well!!! In fact I have them right here with me!!! Woot! Not so woot writing them all tho...hehe.

Yeh well I have seen 2 separate verses that the rapturists use and they do make me think...but the way people go on about it, and a couple of other topics that i WONT MENTION, we are wasting sooo much time arguing about something that is yet to happen, when we have been told to love God and others and go out into the world...etc....

Its just another argument that the enemy is using against different denominations to waste our time not doing what we should be.

I hear ya Sincirr. I just about got my cards done. I say just about a couple of days later because there's 2 or 3 people I won't see or be able to get them to until Saturday or Sunday anyway.

I agree there is much to do besides talking about the validity of the "rapture". But I will also say that I believe it could be a very real concern in this sense. If a person is under the impression that Jesus Christ is returning at any moment and that they will be gathered back to Him at any moment, what happens when Antichrist comes claiming to do all that? They become deceived and even impregnated spiritually speaking, instead of being a virgin bride for Christ. So, I think there is some danger in it.

Jason
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Old 12-18-2009, 04:57 PM   #6
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Re: Signs, Signs, Everywhere There's Signs

Quote: (Originally Posted by TrulyAmazing) got ya number of the bathroom wall a lot of things one can find on a bathroom wall Glory To God No BUT SERIUS jason brother this reminds me of a story of a bathroom wall i came acrossed in a departmeant store i wont say the store because i wish to keep my bargians a secret Alrighty there was this entire topic On fogiveness JUST Entire Argumeant Going Back And Forth Between To Writers On This Bathroom Wall And Im Reading It And As I Recall It Was On The Topic Of Forgivness On Homosexuals Thats A Topic That Is Irelvent At The Momeant, Because We Are On The Topic Of Rapture what i found strange Is how this topic started on the bathroom wall So dug In My Purse And Got Out My Pen And Put My Thoughts And Opions There As Well And Somebody Else Came In And Wrote Im Praying For The Person That Took The Time To Read All Of This And I wrote something there To Remind Myself AND I forgot About It Came Back In One Day GLORY TO GOD And It Minstered To Me I Just Thought It Would Be Interesting To Bring Up Anyways Back To The Topic Of Rapture PRAISE JESUS


I don't know how "Christian" it is, but I actually took part in something similar... different subject matter though. When I was in college I believe someone wrote some remarks on the walls of a stall, either something Christian oriented or a short passage of scripture. Well, I and an atheist or agnostic got into the act and kind of had a back and forth going about evolution and things of that sort. Don't know if its my proudest moment, but I guess I got the word out. Someone even wrote "graffiti for the Lord". What was funny though was, I assume it was just one other guy, but obviously both of us made a point to visit that stall, because it was a continuing dialog we had going there.

Jason
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Old 12-18-2009, 07:47 PM   #7
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Re: Signs, Signs, Everywhere There's Signs

Alright then, so what do we say or what can we say about the rapture? What is it built upon? Well, most of what it's built upon and the verses I always thought described it of course come from 1st Thessalonians. But you know, the problem that you have when you let man interpret scripture for you and just take his word for it is you can miss the whole boat. Why? Well, when man either deliberately or ignorantly takes certain sections of scripture out of the context it's written and given in and uses it to try to prove something they believe to be true, then you have people who are so lost and confused and mislead, that they would go running up to Antichrist when they saw him, because based on what they've been taught, they'll think it's Jesus!

Let's take a look at 1st Thessalonians 4, and the verses used to supposedly confirm a rapture.

1st Thess 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive, and remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Well that sounds great, and it sounds like a rapture if you just read those 2 verses and you've been taught your whole life that yep, that's the rapture being described. But you must understand a few things. You must first understand what the subject matter being discussed really is, and we're going to that in a minute. But the subject matter is not a "rapture" and it's not even so much our gathering back to Christ as it is concerning those believers who have already passed on from the flesh.

But the other thing is when does Jesus Christ return? What is the trump of God? Well there are 7 trumps in the book of Revelation, as well as 7 seals and 7 vials. When does Jesus Christ return? He returns at the 7th. When does Antichrist arrive? Antichrist arrives at the 6th trump. So, which comes first, 6 or 7? 6 does naturally, and when Christ returns and there's a gathering back to Him at the 7th, it's after Antichrist has already been here. I'll try to confirm that for you too, even in the book of 2nd Thessalonians, when Paul said don't be deceived about when we gather back to Christ. He makes it so specific that a child can understand it, if they're paying attention. Yet so many people want to fly away at the first sign or thought of trouble.

Let's stay with 1st Thessalonians 4 and let's see what the subject is and where it starts. The first 12 verses of the chapter are exhortation and instruction on living and walking as a Christian in being an example, to both nonbelievers and each other.

But then in verse 13 the subject changes and it stays on that same subject through the end of the chapter.

1 Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

You see, for those who especially don't believe in life after death, they have no hope. One trip through life, and when you're done with it, that's it, you're just done. There is a lot of sorrow in that, though many of them when they are alive say it doesn't bother them. But certainly, they have no hope.

4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also
sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
You know, I guess the key question or point here is when do you believe God will bring them with Him. You see, there are some who believe that at the rapture, or at this trump, the graves will open up and the dead in Christ will ascend into the air to be with God. That's a very, very unbiblical thing. You see, to believe that, you would have to ignore or be ignorant or Ecclesiastes 12:6-7 where it says that immediately upon death, when you take that last breath and your heart beats one last time, when there's no more brain activity and your flesh body has expired, then instantly the spirit returns to the Father who gave it. You would have to be ignorant of 2 Corinthians 5:8 where it says We are confident and willing to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. You would quite frankly have to be ignorant of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus of Luke 16 taught by Jesus Christ, where Lazarus died and was instantly taken to "Abraham's Bosom"... Abraham's Bosom was a teaching or belief of the Pharisees that basically was heaven or where the dead went. When a person died they said, "this day he sits in Abraham's bosom". But the thing too is even the rich man when he died, he was in the same basic location, but there was a gulf between that no one could cross. But they were both in the afterlife, in heaven if you will, with God. Different sides of heaven to be sure... one side for those who overcame and one for those who did not, and both still waiting for Judgment Day like everyone else. But they're in heaven, not buried in the ground.

4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Now I suppose if you're not careful here it can get a bit confusing. Shall not prevent them which are asleep means those who are alive won't come or go to God before those which are asleep. Why? Well, obviously they are already there. I don't know if you've ever been with someone at their death, at the very moment. I have not. But I was talking with a guy a few weeks back who said he was there at the moment his mother died and that he could just tell, couldn't really explain it, but he could just tell from her face that at the moment she died, something, that being her soul, left her body... at that very moment. So again, don't go thinking that those who die, saved/unsaved, believer or nonbeliever are buried and that they're still in that decaying flesh body, decaying over time anyway and are in the ground. They're not. They are with the Father, period. Some who did not overcome aren't in very good shape. But upon death God calls all souls back to Him where they all wait on one side of that gulf in Luke 16 or another, anticipating Judgment Day.

Now we get back to the "rapture verses". It's still the same subject concerning the dead.

4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

Why would the dead rise first? Because again, they have already risen. Let there be no great mystery in that. Go back to verse 14 if you have to where it says if you believe Jesus died and rose again and ask yourself where Jesus is. He's in heaven. Where then are the dead in Christ at this moment? They are in heaven also. You have to pull the entire Word of God together as best you can, and you have to be aware of what's been talked about and who is being addressed. It could get confusing if you let your mind wander, but don't let that happen. Stay focused. What was Paul's point? The point was that you sorrow not about where the dead in Christ are.

4:17 Then we which are alive, and remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Now, a few things here. First of all, does that say it will happen at "any moment"? No, it does not. It says it happens at the moment Christ descends at that particular trump. It only happens one time. There's only one trump out of the 7 in which Jesus returns, and that's the last trump. So guess when we gather back to Christ? At the last trump. But guess what happens before then? Satan comes to play his role of Antichrist to see who he can deceive, which will be most of the world. But there is no gathering back to Christ until after that happens.

I'll give confirmation of that in my next post.

Jason
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Old 12-20-2009, 01:05 AM   #8
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Re: Signs, Signs, Everywhere There's Signs

You know, it's interesting that the same night I posted this, I happened to be watching a part of a show on the National Geographic Channel on the book of Revelation. Years ago, I had the extremely good fortune to come across one of the most gifted bible teachers in the world in Arnold Murray, and he made mention of a book called The Incredible Cover Up by one Dave MacPherson, concerning the visions of a girl who was mentally ill in Margaret MacDonald. Isn't it odd that this same girl had a vision of Jesus Christ coming back at any moment to "rapture" Christians away,kind of thus beginning the idea of "2 more comings of Christ". It was mentioned on the National Geographic show that this kind of really started the movement that took hold of Christ coming to "rapture the church" before the Tribulation. This came about around 1830, and went from MacDonald, to John Darby, to C.I. Scofield, and filters down to today with all the "any moment" nonsense and all your Left Behind books, movies, and everything else that people are getting rich off of, that isn't even biblical. When this girl Margaret MacDonald first had that vision, she said there was a great darkness and error about it. Yet still, preachers took that and sold it to their congregations, misleading the people they were supposed to be teaching from the Word of God.

Either you believe Jesus Christ and the Living Word Himself when He said in Mark 13:23, "Behold I have foretold you all things", or you don't. There's no need for a new vision to give a new interpretation of scripture. Either you know it, and understand it, or you do not. And, in that same book of Mark 13 in which Jesus would give the signs at the end, He states one verse prior in 22 that false Christs and prophets will ariseand that if it were possible they would deceive God's own election. It's not possible, but the only way it could be is that if the elect are still around to be deceived. Which again won't happen, but no one is going anywhere and there will be no gathering back to Christ until Antichrist shows up first.

You know, there are many people who claim that the any moment pre trib rapture did not originate with MacDonald and John Darby, and Scofield, but that even the earliest Christians believed it would happen. Will you know what, that may be in some cases, but you will always have groups of people who get a little anxious, who let their imaginations get ahead of them, and come out wrong. Paul himself would try to squash this idea in 2nd Thessalonians. But was it so much Paul trying to squash the idea, or was it God through Paul? Hopefully you know the answer. Let's turn to 2nd Thessalonians, Chapter 2.

2nd Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him.
Now is it hard to pick up the subject of what's being talked about there? When do we gather back to Jesus Christ, that's the subject.
2nd Thess 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter,as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
He can not get any more clear here. Don't let your mind run away from you, don't let some evil spirit, don't let man's word, don't let what was said to you in 1st Thessalonians shake you up and make you think you're gathering back to Christ at any moment.
2:3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perditionNow do you get that? Is this the word of Paul? No, it's the Word of God! It's telling you even today, there will be no gathering back to Christ, period, until this happens.
2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.Guess what... that hasn't happened yet. Until it does, there's no gathering back to Christ. You know, God kind of needs His people who truly love Him and who won't be deceived by a fake to stand against the Antichrist and even be delivered up at some point to testify against that one. He doesn't particularly need or can't use people who are hoping to fly out of here at the first sign of trouble, or before trouble even gets here. I want to give a couple of types, one of which should hopefully be really clear. That will be coming up.

Jason
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Old 12-22-2009, 12:17 AM   #9
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Re: Signs, Signs, Everywhere There's Signs

Alright, I said I was going to give some examples that I believe are types of kind of what it will be like during the time when Antichrist is here during the Tribulation, and what I think we can take out of them. Both of these are I believe fairly obvious types, for different reasons. One reason is that Jesus Christ Himself said it would be like this again at the end. That's one type. The other type is where you would even have an image built and people expected to bow down to that image, or statue, just as it stipulates will occur again in Revelation.

First of all, let's look at what Jesus Christ said as to what it would be like at the end.

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
"Noe" is Noah. So we're going back to Noah's time and the time of the flood. Did you know that there's going to be another flood coming? It's stipulated in Revelation 12:15, it's a flood that comes out of the serpent's (Satan's) mouth. That flood is not literal water. What would be coming out of his mouth that could still sweep people away and overwhelm and drown them? This is a flood of lies.
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Old 12-22-2009, 10:23 AM   #10
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Re: Signs, Signs, Everywhere There's Signs

yes indeed brother yes indeed Again as you,ve brought up in your posts Including the ones from BUT I thought The World Was 6,000 YEARS OLD, And Where You Went Deepley In That topic Brother The Word IS THE SPIRT OF GOD Not Superfical Opions GLORY TO GOD HIS SPIRT Guides Us Through The Word Of The Living God PRAISE JESUS, The Word Says MANY SHALL WAX COLD IN SPIRT AND HAVE ITCHING EARS And Will Not Hear The Truth BUT RATHER RUN TO A BEAST MADE OF GOD WHICH IS A SPIRT OF FALSEHOOD Ya See Where I Coming From Brother, Which Is The Spirt Of Antichrist The Word Says Many Shall Rise And Give Him Power AMEN And We,ve Seen These Kings Rise And Fall Through Out The Decades From Waco Was It TEXAS Lord I,ll Never Forget That One I Tell Ya To Jim Jones And Even Goes Back To Hitler PRAISE JESUS Only If we Keep His truth and spirt AND STRONG FELLOWSHIP IS IMPORTAN WE SHALL NOT BE DECIVED My Brother, Lets Go Over To ISA>59>19> PRAISE JESUS SO SHALL THEY FEAR THE NAME OF THE LORD From The Wast And His Glory From The Rising Of The Sun WHEN THE ENMEY SHALL COME IN LIKE A FLOOD Just like you said WHOOOOOOOO WHAT HAPPENS HERE THE LORD SHALL LIFE UP A STANDARD AGAINST HIM And The Word Goes In To Describe And The Reedeemer Shall Come To Zion Which Is Mentioned Many Times Though Out The Bible Which In Many References MEANS PEACE WHERE THERE IS NO PEACE And Unto Theme That TURNED FROM TRANSGRESSION IN JACOB Saith The Lord Just Like You Said Brother There Will Come A Time When Esstranged Loved Ones Is Not WHERE WE AT AT TODAY But Slowly And I Do Mean Slowly Trying To Get There when i was young i,d say lord They know Help For Him Praise jesus No Help BUT as My Heart Was In Larged And I Clinged To That Which I Love The Most JESUS CHRIST i saw things in a different prespective GOD does,nt Give Up As Easy AS WE DO AMEN HE IS THE FINAL JUDGE PRAISE JESUS
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Old 12-22-2009, 10:55 AM   #11
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Re: Signs, Signs, Everywhere There's Signs

GLORY TO GOD Lets Now Go over To ISA>8>18>22 COMMAND TO TRUST THE LORD, Behold I and the children whom The Lord Hath Given Me Are For Signs And For Wonders In Israel FROM The Precious Lord Of Host Which Dwell In Zion. AND when They Say Unto You Seek Unto Theme That Have Familiar Spirts And Unto Wizards That Peep And That Mutter Should Not A People Seek Unto THEIR GOD For The Living To The Dead GLORY TO GOD MY JESUS SAID Brother I WILL SHALL NO SIGN To These People Except For JONA What Did Jona Do Brother He DID NOT OBEY GOD We Tons Of That Everybody Setting Comfortable And Wish Not Make That SACRIFICE To Do The Will Of God But Rather Sugar Coat The Truth AND Follow That Beast Made Of Gold Verse 20 TO The Law And To The Testimony If They Speak NOT ACORDING TO THIS WORD It Is Because There Be No Light In Theme And They Shall Pass Through It hardly bestead And Hungry And It Shall Be Hungry And They Shall Fret And Their GodAnd Look Upward And They Shall Look Unto The Earth And Behold Trouble And Darkness Dimness Of Anguish And They Shall Be Driven Into Darkness I need A GLASS Of Water And A Hankey Stepping On Some Toes Glory To God PRAISE JESUS ISA 17>14 And behold At Evening tide trouble and before the morning he is not This Is The Portion Of Theme That Spoil Us And The Lot Of Theme That Robs Us BUT WHERE IS THE GOOD NEWS To Such A Rebelious House THIS IS THE COMMAND TO TRUST IN THE LORD The Word Of GOD My Brother Is NOT ONLY OUR SHILED AND OUR STRENGETH BUT A Warning To Those Repatley Who Choose The Beast Made Of Gold BUT DOES GOD GIVE UP KNOW He Does Not For A Debre Of A Love Hides A Multitude Of Sins The Word Says Whosover SHALL CALL UPON HIS NAME SHALL BE SAVED No Lets For Clartiy Go Back To Again ISA 20 To Shed More Light On The Subject AND THE Truth Shall Come And Unto Theme THAT TURN AWAY FROM THEIR Transgression In Jacob Like You Said Jason Brother GLORY TO GOD Many Will Need To Hear The Truth THATS Why We Can Give Up There Will Be Times Of War Which Im Always PREACHING ON WARFARE Because Its The Truth There Will Be Times Of Confusion BUT IF WE HOLD ON TO JESUS AS THE WINDS AND THE THE TIDES BLOW Quickly All Of It We Fall UNDER OUR FEET PEACE BE WITH You Brother Great Posting As Always AND BLESSINGS AND STRENGETH AND PEACE BE WITH US ALL IN THE NAME THATS ABOVE ALL OTHER NAMES IN THE MIGHTY NAME OF JESUS
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Old 12-22-2009, 11:42 PM   #12
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Re: Signs, Signs, Everywhere There's Signs

I'm going to add on to my last post from above, as it was unfinished. I'll tell everyone what I did. I had what was posted typed out and I left this screen up for like over a day, because I wanted to make sure I didn't lose or have to retype what I already said. Finally, I just posted what I had and figured I'd come back to it later. So, hopefully this doesn't get too confusing.

I will say this. After I started with this example, I had second thoughts about going there, because when I read and study I'm not sure if it's going to come out exactly like I thought. But I started down this road and I believe I can still make the point. But the last thing I would want to do is mislead anyone here.

But, picking up where I left off...

First of all, let's look at what Jesus Christ said as to what it would be like at the end.

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
"Noe" is Noah. So we're going back to Noah's time and the time of the flood. Did you know that there's going to be another flood coming? It's stipulated in Revelation 12:15, it's a flood that comes out of the serpent's (Satan's) mouth. That flood is not literal water. What would be coming out of his mouth that could still sweep people away and overwhelm and drown them? This is a flood of lies.

Now, there was more going on at the time of Noah than just the flood even. There was a very specific reason for the flood and a very specific reason that Noah and his family were chosen by God to first of all build the ark, but also to be saved from that flood. What was that reason?

In Genesis 6:2 it says the sons of God took wives of the daughters of men. Now, you will have some preachers or "scholars" who would say the "sons of God" were flesh men and that either through their own interpretation or whatever believe that these were the sons of Seth. But this really doesn't work for several reasons. One, why the clear separation between "sons of God", implying spirit, and "daughters of men", implying flesh? Secondly, everywhere else we see the phrase "sons of God" in the Old Testament, it is acknowledged that we're talking about angels. You don't want to try to reinterpret,ignore, or downplay Scripture when you don't like what it says. But people want to do this it seems, out of ignorance in many cases, perhaps. But the third reason this doesn't work is that a completely natural conception doesn't produce the giants mentioned in Genesis 6. The actual word is Nephilim, which means fallen ones, coming from the prime naphal, which means to fall. Let there be no doubt that there were angels, fallen angels mixing with the daughters of man and producing giants. Jude 6:6 talks about these angels that kept not their first estate, or habitation. What would an angel's first habitation be? Heaven, of course!

Why was Noah and his family spared? As it mentions in Genesis 6:9, Noah was perfect in his generations. Perfect in that case is a very specific Hebrew word which means without blemish as to breed or pedigree. Meaning Noah and his family did not mix with the fallen angels. It's not the main point here but let's consider that as we go back to Matthew. Remember, Christ said it will be as it was in the days of Noah. Now He's going to tell you or remind you just how it was in the days of Noah.

Mt 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Now, people have been marrying and giving in marriage basically since Adam and Eve, and I would even go so far as to say probably before that even, but I'll let that lie, it's not the main point. But why would Jesus Christ bring up marriage specifically in the days of Noah? What kind of marriages were taking place? I just mentioned it, marriages between fallen angels and women. Those fallen angels are coming back! You want documentation of that, it's in Revelation 12:9 where it says that Satan is cast out by Michael and his angels are cast out onto the earth with him. Guess what else, they are going to be here before Christ returns, and everyone on earth will be here too... not going anywhere! I'll ask, was Noah and his family "raptured away" so as to avoid the fallen angels and the flood? No, and keep that in mind. Jesus would not have mentioned anything and used this time as an example unless He wanted you to pay attention to it.

Mt 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left

Now, those last two verses, a lot of people kind of use those as proof of a rapture in a sense too. They say, "Praise Jesus, the one taken from the field and the from the mill were raptured away!" It doesn't say that. It doesn't say that AT ALL. He brought your attention to the days of Noah, and what did He say? He said they were eating and drinking and having a good time with the fallen angels giving themselves over to them in marriage. Then the flood came and took who away? The flood came and took Noah away? No, the flood came and took those who were wicked away. It took the offspring of the fallen angels away, and many of those families who had mixed with them. Noah and those in the ark were "left behind".

Now, I guess in closing for this example I'll just ask again, was Noah "raptured away"? Did God move Noah to some other location so he could avoid the flood? No, He did not. Noah and all those in the ark were right there going through it. But they had the protection of Almighty God and Noah followed God's instructions to the letter and was kept protected for that entire period of 40 days and 40 nights. I guess the key is what I just said, and that is Noah followed God's instructions to the letter, and thus even going through such an event, he came out of it in perfect shape. So what's the lesson? Follow God's instructions, that being His Word, to the letter as best you can, and you will be just fine. Why do you think when Satan comes to spread his flood of lies on the woman "loosely translated or meaning Israel, all the tribes", the earth swallows up that flood and they're protected? Is it because they're prettier than everyone else? No, it's because they are following God's instructions to the letter. The next example, I'll get to that ASAP. It's quite an example... showing that you can be right in the midst of the fire and be unharmed, IF you're serving God.

Jason
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Old 12-23-2009, 11:42 PM   #13
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Re: Signs, Signs, Everywhere There's Signs

Now then, I mentioned that there's an example that shows you can be right in the middle of the fire and not get burnt. Meaning that you can be here during the Tribulation and come out unharmed and without even having your clothes getting singed. Hopefully you know where I'm going here. It will be in the book of Daniel. You know, do you think it was a coincidence that Jesus Christ mentioned the time of Noah and a flood taking many away unaware when they were least expecting it, and then when Satan is booted out of heaven, he comes and tries to carry people away with a flood of lies? Do you think that was coincidence or do you think it was brought up by the Living Word Himself for a reason, and that you should pay attention to it? Paul stated in 1st Corinithians 10:11 talking about the Hebrew children in the wilderness and the things they did and the things that happened to them, in 1st Cor 10:11 he stated these things were ensamples, or examples or types for us to learn from even today.

Many people are familiar with the image of the beast in Revelation and how Antichrist wants people to bow down and worship this image. Well, it would not be the first time. Again, do you think this is coincidence?

Daniel 3:1 Nebuchadnezzar the king made an image of gold, whose height was threescore (60) cubits, and the breadth thereof six cubits: he set it up in the plain of Dura, in the province of Babylon.

Sixty cubits high and six cubits around, or wide. That's a lot of sixes. Where else do we have a lot of sixes? Where else do we see threescore six? You know where. The last verse of Revelation Chapter 13... 666. This I guess would technically be 606. But do you really think that it would be coincidence that those would be the dimensions?

I'll skip to verse 4 of Daniel 3. Nebuchadnezzar has assembled all the important people.

Daniel 3:4 Then an herald cried aloud, "To you it is commanded, O people, nations, and languages,
3:5 That at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut,psaltery, dulcimer,and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king hath set up.
3:6 And whoso falleth not down and worshippeth shall the same hour be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace.

Now, first of all we continue to have sixes all over the place here. Count the number of instruments by name. How many are there? There are six. I'll ask again, do you think that's a coincidence? You see, God is in control, and He will use whomsoever and whatsoever He chooses to accomplish His will. Now, where have we seen this scenario described? What other place besides here in Daniel do we see something like this? Revelation of course.

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Now, Satan as Antichrist is supernatural and of course Nebuchadnezzar was not. But what are we looking at here? Sixes all over the place, people being commanded to worship an image or face death. Could it be Nebuchadnezzar was a type for Antichrist and this "system" or image is a type for how it will be when Antichrist is here? I think it should hopefully be rather obvious.


Now, of course there were 3 Hebrew children who would not bow down to Nebuchadnezzar's statue. Those 3 being Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. Those were not their given names, of course. Nebuchadnezzar renamed them and gave them Babylonian names. But we're going to see in Daniel that someone even beginning in verse 8 of Daniel 3 "delivers up" these 3 Hebrew children, or Hebrew men, men of Israel, or of Judah technically since the nation or tribes of Israel are split. But again, what should that remind you of? Mark 13, Matthew 10, Luke 21? Brother shall betray brother, father the child, children their parents, delivering them up to death? All again words from Jesus on how it would be at the end. You see, it's not that a family member will deliver you up to be executed. A family member will come along and say to the Antichrist, believing he's Jesus, "We love the fact that you're here, and love this heaven on earth (more like hell on earth), but my brother just doesn't believe in you. My son or my daughter thinks you're fake. I love my mom, but she just won't join in with our religion here. So what happens? Those people are delivered up to death, because Satan is death (Hebrews 2:14). But as Christ said would happen, they are delivered up to speak, to give a testimony and that they are not to premeditate what they will say because the Holy Spirit will speak through them, as it again mentions in Mark 13:11 and in Luke 12:11-12.

Now, as we continue to read in Daniel, these 3 men of Judah are brought before Nebuchadnezzar and questioned over this. Nebuchadnezzar then orders them thrown into the fire and has it heated 7 times hotter. They are bound up and tossed in the furnace, and the heat is so intense that it kills the men who threw them in there. But what happens?

Daniel 3:24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied(astonished), and rose up in haste(immediately), and spake,and said unto his counsellers, "Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire?" They answered and said unto the king, "True, O king".
3:25 He answered and said, "Lo, I see FOUR MEN LOOSE, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the son of God."

Now, this is a Babylonian king with a very different religion. Later on he will actually convert and believe in God Almighty. But he looks into that fire and he sees 4 men,unhurt, and says one looks like the son of God. Naturally, it was the Son of God. But how could this Babylonian king know this, especially since Jesus Christ had not come yet born of the virgin Mary as the Son of God? He was a very intelligent man, but he couldn't, unless God Himself revealed it to him.

Now, what happens of course is that Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego are taken out of the furnace, with not one hair singed, nor even their clothing. I mean, it killed the very men who were only near the furnace who threw them in it. They were in the middle of the fire, and there was no harm that came to them. What a miracle from God Himself.

You see, people may be delivered up to death during that time that Antichrist is here. But look at this example. If God can protect 3 men in the midst of a raging fire, don't you think He not only can but will protect those who refuse to bow down to Antichrist and his image during that particular time? I mean He says in Luke 12 that even the very hairs on your head are numbered by God. So do you think just because you're delivered up to Satan that you're going to die? No way... as long as you have the faith and the love and discipline to stick with God, Satan can't touch a hair on your head. Satan can only harm those who don't have the seal of God, which is to say the Word, the truth, in their mind... Revelation 9:4.

Lastly, I'll ask again... were the 3 men "raptured away"? Were they teleported out by God? No, they were thrown right in the midst of the fire. When it comes down to it, do you know what is so very important about why they were thrown in that fire, and why everyone will go through the Tribulation? The reason why it's so important is that, when those men were taken out of that furnace, Nebuchadnezzar realized who the true God was. It wasn't his little statue or any Babylonian god. It was YHVH, THE God. When the Holy Spirit speaks through those delivered up in a language and a dialect that everyone in the world understands at the same time, only God can do that. It will, as it says in Luke 21:15 convince your adversaries so that they have no argument against you. Why would anyone want to be flown out of here? How could God use anyone who is looking to fly out, to run away before the battle begins? He can't. That doesn't necessarily mean they aren't saved. But He sure can't use them.

I'm not quite done yet, so stay tuned.

Jason
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Old 12-25-2009, 12:13 AM   #14
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Re: Signs, Signs, Everywhere There's Signs

PRAISE JESUS BROTHER And That Old King Instructed TO MAKE IT HOTTER PRAISE JESUS JEHOVHOA GOD DID PREVAIL Again And Again And Again Glory To God THE CORNERSTONE KING OF KING AND LORDS OF LORDS And Every Knee Shall BOWL And every tounge Confess THAT IS LORD brother i did,nt find your words confusing But Opening The Word Of God In The Times That We We Our In The Word Say Brother Our Meat Will Come In Due Season GLORY TO GOD Looking Foward To The Rest Brother Peace Be with You Brother In Jesus Name
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Old 12-27-2009, 01:02 AM   #15
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Re: Signs, Signs, Everywhere There's Signs

Thank you for your input Truly.

I'm going to see if I can more or less finish up with my points here tonight. Maybe I will, maybe I won't. We'll see.

You know, I mentioned that God really can't use someone who is hoping to fly out of here, to flee before the battle actually starts. I have a lot of credit to give and a lot of respect and love for Arnold Murray and the Shepherd's Chapel teachings and ministry. Not only did he help show me a lot of truths in the bible, he taught me how to look for them myself. Now, he uses a series of verses from Ezekiel as kind of God's view of this rapture theory. The more I mull it over in my own head, the more I don't know for sure that we can say it's God speaking out against the rapture, per se. But I think it does work in the sense that it kind of applies to that mindset, that way of thinking. I'll go ahead and bring your attention to the verses and then you can reason it out for yourself.

This comes from the book of Ezekiel, Chapter 13. Now, the whole chapter is God speaking out against false prophets. Now, it is interesting that the first 16 verses deal more or less with false prophets and that from verse 17 kind of til the end it deals with false prophetesses(women). Now, this is nothing against women because certainly after 16 verses dealing with incorrect, false male prophets and what they say, both sexes are kind of dealt with here. It is interesting that again, when talking about women, you had this woman, or girl in Margaret MacDonald with this vision. Now again, can we say that it directly addresses this? Well, I'll leave it up to you to decide. But there are definitely reasons there in what's said to go down that road, so to speak.

Starting with verse 17...

Ezekiel 13:17 Likewise, thou son of man, set they face against the daughters of thy People, which prophesy out of their own heart, and prophesy thou against them,
13:18 And say,Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will we hunt the souls of My People, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?
What this is saying basically, is going back first to verse 17, that should be obvious. You have these women, again nothing against women, it's just it is addressing women here, who claim to have a vision or prophecy from God, when it is something they either dreamed up, or perhaps came from some other negative spirit. But in verse 18, it's very interesting what is truly being discussed. This sewing pillows to all armholes refers to trying to sew pillows or coverings over the outstretched hands and arms of God Himself. If you want to see a comparison, check out Isaiah 52:10 where it says the Lord has made bare his Holy Arm to the eyes of all the nations,and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God. God Himself made His arm bare so that everyone could see it and see and partake of salvation, so you don't want to sew coverings over that bare arm, made bare by God Himself. You don't want to try to cover up God's salvation and His plan. As it stands, you can't anyway, and we'll even see that in these verses. But you certainly don't even want to try. He doesn't look kindly upon that. The Hebrew word for pillows is actually ksathoth, from kasah, which means to conceal or hide. So you have God with his arm outstretched bare offering salvation, and these "prophetesses" are trying to conceal it. What do you suppose He thinks of that? These kerchiefs on the head, what's on your head or on your face? Your eyes, naturally. So they're covering up or trying to cover up God's bare saving arms with pillows to hide them, and they're putting kerchiefs on the heads of the people to cover their eyes so they can't see! Again, do you think God will stand for that. Stature refers to important people, like the rulers of Jerusalem. But let me just throw this out there, what about preachers? Do you think preachers/supposed bible teachers, shepherds if you will, are important and of a high stature to God? Really you might say they are of higher stature to God, because rulers come and go, and for that matter so do preachers. But preachers are supposed to be feeding people spiritually and helping win souls to God's kingdom. Again, just throwing this out here, who was one of the first people who supposedly bought in to this "rapture vision" of Margaret MacDonald? It was a preacher in John Darby, and he spread that idea quickly through the churches. And this last statement is kind of one of God almost mocking these prophetesses asking if they can save the souls that they ensnare when they hunt them. Naturally, they can't save souls or give eternal life to souls. Only God can.

13:19 And will ye pollute Me among My People for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live by your lying to My People that hear your lies?

This is getting pretty serious here because it's accusing them ultimately of selling people out and really probably even worse selling God out since they claim it's God given prophecy for a little bit of barely, a few pieces of bread, a little money or notoriety, gaining a few followers, and giving false teaching that would cause a person who buys into it to ultimately go to hell. Once again too, they can't give life or promise eternal life, or can't keep that promise, especially to those who don't truly follow God.

13:20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
Now, again, isn't it interesting that we're talking about souls flying here. What's that song, or how's it go, "I'll fly away, I'll meet Jesus in the sky?" Now, again, does it specifically refer to the rapture? Well, once again you can decide for yourself. But it is worth mentioning too going back to 1st Thessalonians 4 where it says we meet the Lord in the air, the word air is not "sky" in the Greek, but rather refers to the spiritual or breath of life body. I'll try to go back there again.
13:21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver My People out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

Now again, I don't know that we can say this specifically refers to the rapture, but I think we can see some similarities. Certainly Margaret MacDonald had her vision over 2000 years after this time. But, as I said we do have types and kind of repeats that occur again many years after the verse or verses were written. I mean, even today you still have people who would claim to have visions from God and a personal message from God. While that may or may not be the case, you certainly should never just take a person's word for it without checking them out in God's Word. If a person claims that they received a new vision or personal vision from God on how the end would be or when it's coming, and how and when He's coming, you can almost be 100% positive in all likelihood that they are either out and out lying, or deceived. Because He told us all that already in His Word. I guess too that this would really be my whole point. How many of you, how many of us at some point in our lives can say if we're honest, "I believe that those verses in 1st Thessalonians 4 are describing the rapture because every pastor and evangelist I've heard from say that is the case. I can. I'll admit, I heard or read commentary that said 1st Thess 4:16-18 is describing the rapture, and then I opened up my bible, read it, and thought, yep that's clearly talking about the rapture. But what I was failing to do was first of all, pick up the proper subject, and secondly reason it out in my head taking not only those verses but the whole of the Word into account. I was only going as far as to accept the "common theory" and like almost every other rapture believer, making scripture fit into the context of that preconceived notion, rather than checking out or even really knowing how to check out whether the notion and theory was biblically correct.

I'm actually not quite done yet. I want to touch on the trumps, the change into our spiritual bodies at the moment Christ returns, and then that should pretty much wrap it up.

Jason
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