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Old 05-24-2005, 08:55 AM   #91
uncertaindrumer
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Quote: (Originally Posted by Jester) hey wait a minute here......

wasn't Martin Luther a heretic and what about John Calvin or Augustine (sp) ?? these were all heretics at there time but now they are see as the founding fathers of the split of the church in to different sects. Heresies are all in the eye of the beholder.

Yep, and in this eye they were heretics. Luther (and this is a historical fact) was an overly scrupulous headcase, who came up with his "Faith Alone" doctrine because he couldn't handle how guilty he always became for sinning--so he invented an ideology where sinning doesn't matter.

And they are not part of "The Church". They are churches, but not the Church.
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Old 05-24-2005, 09:55 AM   #92
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Luther and Calvin certainly had their issues I will not argue with that. Luther had an illogical dislike of the Jews whilst Calvin was completely overzealous and fined those who didn't attend church and killed people (just like the catholics did, calvin did eye for an eye basically. I will add however that doctrinally they were MUCH closer to biblical truth than the church leadership of the day ever was ALOT of catholic doctrine is simply unbiblical and is heresy.........
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Old 05-24-2005, 10:46 AM   #93
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Actually, Catholic doctrine is the only that truly fits the Bible. It contains no such unBiblical (and pecularly Protestant doctrines) such as Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, etc. Also, the Protestants leave OUT a lot of doctrines, such as the necessity of Baptism, and stuff like that.
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Old 05-24-2005, 02:06 PM   #94
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Old 05-24-2005, 03:52 PM   #95
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Wow. That was one absurd post right there.

You know NOTHING about Catholicism, and your ignorance makes me doubt your opinions on other matters. Catholics most certainly do NOT practice idolatry, and anyone who says this is either misinformed, stupid, or a bona fide anti-Catholic. You think praying to Saints is idolatry? How else do you think we are supposed to talk to them? Seeing as you are no Christian, I will have to spell this out for you:

All Christians are part of the Body of Christ. No Christian would deny that. Jesus has only ONE Body, no Christian would deny that. Saints in Heaven are not SEPERATED from the body of Christ, they are made PERFECT in it. As such, it is still good for them to offer intercessory prayer for those who need it, and it is also good for us to ASK THEM for it. Unfortunately, the only way we can do that is by prayer. PRAYER IS NOT WORSHIP.

1 Timothy 2: 1-3, God tells us that offering prayers, petitions and supplications for each other is PLEASING to God. PLEASING. So don't go running your mouth about how we worship Saints. We don't.

And Catholocism has never changed one BIT of Doctrine to fir with the times, DESPITE all of the super liberal Catholics who want us to. The Church still condemns contraception, abortion, cloning, stem cell research etc., despite those being VERY unpopular stances. Has the Church relaxed certain practices? Yes. For instance, one used to be required to abstain from food for three horus before Mass, now only one. THAT IS NOT CHANGING DOCTRINE. I dare you to come up with a SINLGE example of the Catholic Church changing ANY doctrine. EVER. Defined doctrines? Sure. Developing doctrines? Indeed. But not CHANGED.
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Old 05-24-2005, 04:03 PM   #96
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Old 05-24-2005, 07:09 PM   #97
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Are you just mentally retarded? Are you a Catholic? Umm, let's see... NO!

I am TELLING you Catholics do not worship Saints, and you don't believe me. Do I need to go find the specific lines in the Catechism that SAY SO?

Look, you can argue about what is RIGHT or WRONG within a religion, but you, a NON-CHRISTIAN, have no business telling me, a DEVOUT CATHOLIC, what I believe in. You have NO experience in Catholicism, and everything you think about it has come from otuside sources obviously. For someone who is so big on researching things, why don't you research the Church before you make absurd claims about her teachings?

And you think I haven't taken a step back and looked at my religion? I am ACTIVELY engaged in Apologetics and do a LOT of research about not only other religions but the reasons behind WHY Catholics believe in things. YOU DON'T.

And you think I'm biased? How so? Biased because I believe the Catholic Church is the one true church established by Jesus Christ? If so, I hope I am the msot biased person on earth.

I hope you discover what it is you are looking for, but I DOUBT you will if you believe something as ludicrous as the Church claiming Mary is on par with Jesus. If you believe that, you will believe ANYTHING.
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Old 05-24-2005, 08:20 PM   #98
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I'm not a Catholic (the roman catholic i must add) hater but there are many doctrines and practices within that church i have issues with. in roman catholicism mary like jesus is believed to have being born without sin. there is no biblical evidence of this and unlike jesus she was born with "the seed of man". secondly there is one intercessor, jesus christ so why go through these much lower saints?

oh and how bout changing practices around the time of constatine (well before any protestant movement) of bringing in pagan practices that made it easier for the "pagans" to come to christ? where do you think the mistletoe, the christmas tree, easter eggs and such things came from?
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Old 05-24-2005, 08:34 PM   #99
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Old 05-24-2005, 08:42 PM   #100
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Old 05-24-2005, 08:53 PM   #101
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Quote: (Originally Posted by Jester) thank you aussie I was just getting to that.
also what about the ridiculous beliefe that Mary died a virgin?? you really think Joesph would have stuck around if he wasn't gettin any??

what? is this for real? joseph was an honourable man according to the gospel accounts. but mary died a virgin? hahaha jesus had half-brothers and sisters all from mary and joseph. not unless the whole family came about from immaculate conception lol. the infalliablity of popes is another area that dumbfounds me in relation to catholicism.

were evil men like the famous leo infalliable? were the popes who promised the removal of taxes of those who survived (and removal of purgatory for those who died) the crusades infalliable? were the popes who oversaw the famous inquisitions infalliable? it is crazy and in fact heretical to place such faith in mere men, and in some cases very evil men. protesants are also guilty of this (eg calvinists who follow his teachings blindly though he did some very wicked things) but its silly to believe mere men can be infalliable. when a man becomes a pope does he suddenly become this new man who cannot make doctrinal error? yet he could before?
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Old 05-24-2005, 09:05 PM   #102
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Old 05-24-2005, 09:29 PM   #103
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Well I certainly can't answer EVERY question, but I will deal with the Popes.

Do you know what infallibility means? It means that Popes cannot teach errors when regarding matters of faith and morals and when teachign to the whole church. Other than that, they are just normal human beings, fully capable of being idiots, even HERETICS, although there haven't been any heretical popes.

Also, Misseltoe is no Catholic dcotrine. What kind of crap is that? I still defy anyone to come up with a doctrine that the Catholic Church has changed. You won't find any,

Constantine was NOT always a heretic, he did many good thigns for the world, but he also did bad things. No doubting that.

Jesus IS the one mediator between God and man but we share in that role. Aussiecreeder, have you never asked someone else for prayers, or prayed for someone else? HOW DARE YOU! You are getting in the way of Christ's role of mediator. Obviously, that is sarcastic and ridiculous. It is the same thign with Saints in Heaven. We ask for their intercession the same way we ask for the oither saints on earth intercession.

Care to give any examples of Jesus brothers? Because the Bible always uses the word adelphos, which means "kin", and two people named as jesus "kin" are elsewhere named as the sons of DIFFERENT people, hence destroyign the theory that the Bible says Jesus had brothers.

YES, even evil popes are infallible. And YES they become infallible when they become Popes, becasue of the HOLY SPIRIT. I again dare you to tell me when a Pope infallibly declared something that was in error. There WERE NO TIMES.

You don't like Christmas trees? Wow, they are pagan. Better not use mine next year. Christmas trees have ntohing to do with doctrine or dogma, your arguments are really strange.

Mary was "Full of Grace" and "all generations shall call [her] blessed". Catholics do, why don't you?

I can't POSSIBLY respond in detail to all of your accusations, but that was my best in the short form.

And you think Apologetics is BS? Well duh, you have no Faith, so of course you think arguing about Faith is silly.
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Old 05-24-2005, 09:32 PM   #104
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And I have a few questions:

Aussiecreeder, do you believe the Bible is the sole rule of Faith for Christians? If so, how come the Bible never SAYS it is?

Do you believe we are saved by Faith alone? If so, how come the Bible SAYS we aren't?

Do you believe you are in the Church of Jesus Christ, founded by Him two thousand years ago, standing against the Gates of Hell itself? Then why was your church founded sometime in the last couple hundred years?
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Old 05-24-2005, 09:38 PM   #105
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