Being gay no grounds for asylum in Holland

[RalphyS]

Chase, I can understand that you want to defend your country, but I have a hard time understanding that you keep on defending it on issues that time has proven they were wrong on.

The 2 main issues that the invasion on Iraq was based on was the threat by WMD's (not only to neighbouring countries, but even to the West) and the connection between Iraq (Saddam) and Al-Queayda (or however you spell that?). These were not arguements that the liberals invented, but these were the issues given by the Republican government of Dubya and friends.

There was little to no proof of both arguements, before the invasion of Iraq, which is exactly why several nations did not buy into the 'intelligence' provided, the same goes for countless people who protested against a war beforehand.

Still the invasion went on, and what came out, for both contentions there still is no proof and it is blamed on faulty intelligence, exactly what the adversaries of the invasion claimed, there is not enough proof.

In advance of the war there were also middle east experts who stated that Iraq would become a civil war zone and that the USA did'n't think through, what would happen in a after-war Iraq? These experts have been proven right for a great deal also.

Was The Netherlands part of the coalition of the willing, yes! Am I proud of that, no! To I defend that my country had any part in this, no! I was opposed to it from the beginning. Would I ever defend that decision, no.

Clearly it was based either on lies or as you might call it, 'faulty intelligence', but if I go to war I would rather have my elected leader not only double-check, but triple or quadruple-check that he is positively sure about what the decision is based on. People lifes are involved and not only those trained for combat, but also thousands of innocents, who live there.

And through all of it, Dubya not once stated that he might have been wrong or excused himself for leading his country to war on grounds that may not be correct. No, if the original reasons fail to proof itself, just invent other ones, and still claim righteousness. This is the absolute climax of arrogance.

Even you, who at times seems to be a smart guy, are jumping through hoops to condone the obvious mistakes that were made. And time and time again you change the subject and counterattack, like it seems usual business in American politics (both by Republicans and Democrats, if you want) and fail to admit any wrongdoing or even the slightest mistake made, like it would be the most terrible thing to do to admit it. It looks alot like Americans think that as long as they don't admit to mistakes, there aren't any.

We've talked about history around here too, and the biggest lesson of history is learning from the mistakes that were made, not ignoring them and going on and on and on.

And the biggest gift that you can give in a free state, is not defending your elected leader in his mistakes/failures, but to make him accountable for them, this is how checks and balances work in a democracy/republic. You judge your leaders on their actions and if they mislead you, or make severe decisions with not enough proof to back them up you get rid of them.

My biggest frustration with the American people (the majority of the electoral that is) is that they were fooled for over 4 years and I even believe that they could be fooled again, a thing that I would not have believed possible for Bush's (re-)election.

[Chase]

I can't repsond right now because I need to go to sleep... but I can guarantee that Ana is going to say something to the effect of "I love your words!" Whatever that means.

If you had your way Saddam Hussein would still be living in his lavish palaces while ruling Iraq with a tyrannical iron fist.

[Ana4Stapp]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chase)

I can't repsond right now because I need to go to sleep... but I can guarantee that Ana is going to say something to the effect of "I love your words!" Whatever that means.

Hahaha..dont be jealous, Chase...

I didnt know that my words to Ralphy's comments meant too much to you...
LOL


And I cant respond properly because Im going to work and I havent enough time but I can say that Raplhy's words are ...(sorry Chase) the best...lol

[RalphyS]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chase)

I can't repsond right now because I need to go to sleep... but I can guarantee that Ana is going to say something to the effect of "I love your words!" Whatever that means.

If you had your way Saddam Hussein would still be living in his lavish palaces while ruling Iraq with a tyrannical iron fist.

If I had my way over a thousand US soldiers would still be alive and in the tens of thousands Iraq citizens, but in your eyes the removal of Saddam Hussein was worth their (for some) involuntary sacrifice.

Chase, have you ever heard of the color grey, or for that matter the colors green, red, yellow, magenta and whatever. Not every issue is black or white. There were other options to remove Saddam out of power instead of invading Iraq.

And why were cruel dictators in Zimbabwe, North Korea (especially the latter of whom it was know for sure that they had WMD's) treated differently.

[uncertaindrumer]

Does this have to degrade into another war thread? Geez. So Bush screwed us over in Iraq. Don't we know that by now? America is still the best, and most powerful, country in the world and I can guaruntee you that we would never deny a homosexual asylum if he was in danger.

I will say, though, that if the U.S. doesn't turn around fast (I hope 2008 gets here quickly...) we are quite in danger of becoming the former best and most powerful country in the world...

[Ana4Stapp]

Quote: (Originally Posted by uncertaindrumer)

Does this have to degrade into another war thread? Geez. So Bush screwed us over in Iraq. Don't we know that by now? America is still the best, and most powerful, country in the world and I can guaruntee you that we would never deny a homosexual asylum if he was in danger.

I will say, though, that if the U.S. doesn't turn around fast (I hope 2008 gets here quickly...) we are quite in danger of becoming the former best and most powerful country in the world...

I dont understand your point of view...why not discuss about war that by the way your powerful and best country started ( well..powerful I can agree...but the best?) Anyway isnt it a real war? And if this is so repetative to you... you still have the possibility to avoid the thread...

[Ana4Stapp]

Quote: (Originally Posted by RalphyS)

And why were cruel dictators in Zimbabwe, North Korea (especially the latter of whom it was know for sure that they had WMD's) treated differently.

Just a little word here: OIL

[Chase]

Quote: (Originally Posted by RalphyS)

If I had my way over a thousand US soldiers would still be alive and in the tens of thousands Iraq citizens, but in your eyes the removal of Saddam Hussein was worth their (for some) involuntary sacrifice.

Chase, have you ever heard of the color grey, or for that matter the colors green, red, yellow, magenta and whatever. Not every issue is black or white. There were other options to remove Saddam out of power instead of invading Iraq.

And why were cruel dictators in Zimbabwe, North Korea (especially the latter of whom it was know for sure that they had WMD's) treated differently.

"Involuntary sacrifice?" Thousands of brave Americans enlisted after the war had started and were willing to get rid of this blood thirsty tyrant and his equally sadistic sons, Uday and Qusay.

"In 1988, the Hussein regime began a campaign of extermination against the Kurdish people living in Northern and Southern Iraq. This is known as the Anfal campaign. The attacks resulted in the death of at least 50,000 (some reports estimate as many as 100,000 people), many of them women and children. A team of Human Rights Watch investigators determined, after analyzing eighteen tons of captured Iraqi documents, testing soil samples and carrying out interviews with more than 350 witnesses, that the attacks on the Kurdish people were characterized by gross violations of human rights, including mass executions and disappearances of many tens of thousands of noncombatants, widespread use of chemical weapons including Sarin, mustard gas and nerve agents that killed thousands, the arbitrary imprisoning of tens of thousands of women, children, and elderly people for months in conditions of extreme deprivation, forced displacement of hundreds of thousands of villagers after the demolition of their homes, and the wholesale destruction of nearly two thousand villages along with their schools, mosques, farms, and power stations."

"In April 1991, after Saddam lost control of Kuwait in the Gulf War, he cracked down ruthlessly against uprisings in the Kurdish north and the Shia south. His forces committed wholesale massacres and other gross human rights violations against both groups similar to the violations mentioned before. Estimates of deaths during that time range from 40,000 to 100,000 for Kurds, and 60,000 to 130,000 for Shi'ites."

In June of 1994, the Hussein regime in Iraq established severe penalties, including amputation, branding and the death penalty for criminal offenses such as theft, corruption, currency speculation and military desertion.
On March 23, 2003, during the 2003 invasion of Iraq, Iraqi television presented and interviewed prisoners of war on TV, violating the Geneva Convention.
In March of 2003, Britain released video footage of Iraqi soldiers firing on fleeing Iraqi citizens near the town of Basra in southern Iraq.
Also in April of 2003, CNN revealed that it had withheld information about Iraq torturing journalists and Iraqi citizens in the 1990s. According to CNN's chief news executive, the channel had been concerned for the safety not only of its own staff, but also of Iraqi sources and informants, who could expect punishment for speaking freely to reporters. Also according to the executive, "other news organizations were in the same bind."
After the 2003 Invasion of Iraq, several mass graves were found in Iraq containing several thousand bodies total, and more are being uncovered to this day. While most of the dead in the graves were believed to have died in the 1991 uprising against Saddam Hussein, some of them appeared to have died due to executions or died at times other than the 1991 rebellion.
Also after the invasion, numerous torture centers were found in security offices and police stations throughout Iraq. The equipment found at these centers typically included hooks for hanging people by the hands for beatings, devices for electric shock, and other equipment often found in nations with harsh security services and other middle eastern nations.
According to some reports, torture was used to improve the performance of the Iraqi soccer team.

[Chase]

Saddam Hussein's U.N. violations:

Saddam Hussein has repeatedly violated sixteen United Nations Security Council Resolutions (UNSCRs) designed to ensure that Iraq does not pose a threat to international peace and security. In addition to these repeated violations, he has tried, over the past decade, to circumvent UN economic sanctions against Iraq, which are reflected in a number of other resolutions. As noted in the resolutions, Saddam Hussein was required to fulfill many obligations beyond the withdrawal of Iraqi forces from Kuwait. Specifically, Saddam Hussein was required to, among other things: allow international weapons inspectors to oversee the destruction of his weapons of mass destruction; not develop new weapons of mass destruction; destroy all of his ballistic missiles with a range greater than 150 kilometers; stop support for terrorism and prevent terrorist organizations from operating within Iraq; help account for missing Kuwaitis and other individuals; return stolen Kuwaiti property and bear financial liability for damage from the Gulf War; and he was required to end his repression of the Iraqi people. Saddam Hussein has repeatedly violated each of the following resolutions:


UNSCR 678 - November 29, 1990



Iraq must comply fully with UNSCR 660 (regarding Iraq's illegal invasion of Kuwait) "and all subsequent relevant resolutions."


Authorizes UN Member States "to use all necessary means to uphold and implement resolution 660 and all subsequent relevant resolutions and to restore international peace and security in the area."


UNSCR 686 - March 2, 1991



Iraq must release prisoners detained during the Gulf War.


Iraq must return Kuwaiti property seized during the Gulf War.


Iraq must accept liability under international law for damages from its illegal invasion of Kuwait.


UNSCR 687 - April 3, 1991



Iraq must "unconditionally accept" the destruction, removal or rendering harmless "under international supervision" of all "chemical and biological weapons and all stocks of agents and all related subsystems and components and all research, development, support and manufacturing facilities."


Iraq must "unconditionally agree not to acquire or develop nuclear weapons or nuclear-weapons-usable material" or any research, development or manufacturing facilities.


Iraq must "unconditionally accept" the destruction, removal or rendering harmless "under international supervision" of all "ballistic missiles with a range greater than 150 KM and related major parts and repair and production facilities."


Iraq must not "use, develop, construct or acquire" any weapons of mass destruction.


Iraq must reaffirm its obligations under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.


Creates the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM) to verify the elimination of Iraq's chemical and biological weapons programs and mandated that the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) verify elimination of Iraq's nuclear weapons program.


Iraq must declare fully its weapons of mass destruction programs.


Iraq must not commit or support terrorism, or allow terrorist organizations to operate in Iraq.


Iraq must cooperate in accounting for the missing and dead Kuwaitis and others.


Iraq must return Kuwaiti property seized during the Gulf War.


UNSCR 688 - April 5, 1991



"Condemns" repression of Iraqi civilian population, "the consequences of which threaten international peace and security."


Iraq must immediately end repression of its civilian population.


Iraq must allow immediate access to international humanitarian organizations to those in need of assistance.


UNSCR 707 - August 15, 1991



"Condemns" Iraq's "serious violation" of UNSCR 687.


"Further condemns" Iraq's noncompliance with IAEA and its obligations under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.


Iraq must halt nuclear activities of all kinds until the Security Council deems Iraq in full compliance.


Iraq must make a full, final and complete disclosure of all aspects of its weapons of mass destruction and missile programs.


Iraq must allow UN and IAEA inspectors immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.


Iraq must cease attempts to conceal or move weapons of mass destruction, and related materials and facilities.


Iraq must allow UN and IAEA inspectors to conduct inspection flights throughout Iraq.


Iraq must provide transportation, medical and logistical support for UN and IAEA inspectors.


UNSCR 715 - October 11, 1991



Iraq must cooperate fully with UN and IAEA inspectors.


UNSCR 949 - October 15, 1994



"Condemns" Iraq's recent military deployments toward Kuwait.


Iraq must not utilize its military or other forces in a hostile manner to threaten its neighbors or UN operations in Iraq.


Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors.


Iraq must not enhance its military capability in southern Iraq.


UNSCR 1051 - March 27, 1996



Iraq must report shipments of dual-use items related to weapons of mass destruction to the UN and IAEA.


Iraq must cooperate fully with UN and IAEA inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.


UNSCR 1060 - June 12, 1996



"Deplores" Iraq's refusal to allow access to UN inspectors and Iraq's "clear violations" of previous UN resolutions.


Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.


UNSCR 1115 - June 21, 1997



"Condemns repeated refusal of Iraqi authorities to allow access" to UN inspectors, which constitutes a "clear and flagrant violation" of UNSCR 687, 707, 715, and 1060.


Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.


Iraq must give immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access to Iraqi officials whom UN inspectors want to interview.


UNSCR 1134 - October 23, 1997



"Condemns repeated refusal of Iraqi authorities to allow access" to UN inspectors, which constitutes a "flagrant violation" of UNSCR 687, 707, 715, and 1060.


Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.


Iraq must give immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access to Iraqi officials whom UN inspectors want to interview.


UNSCR 1137 - November 12, 1997



"Condemns the continued violations by Iraq" of previous UN resolutions, including its "implicit threat to the safety of" aircraft operated by UN inspectors and its tampering with UN inspector monitoring equipment.


Reaffirms Iraq's responsibility to ensure the safety of UN inspectors.


Iraq must cooperate fully with UN weapons inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.


UNSCR 1154 - March 2, 1998



Iraq must cooperate fully with UN and IAEA weapons inspectors and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access, and notes that any violation would have the "severest consequences for Iraq."


UNSCR 1194 - September 9, 1998



"Condemns the decision by Iraq of 5 August 1998 to suspend cooperation with" UN and IAEA inspectors, which constitutes "a totally unacceptable contravention" of its obligations under UNSCR 687, 707, 715, 1060, 1115, and 1154.


Iraq must cooperate fully with UN and IAEA weapons inspectors, and allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access.


UNSCR 1205 - November 5, 1998



"Condemns the decision by Iraq of 31 October 1998 to cease cooperation" with UN inspectors as "a flagrant violation" of UNSCR 687 and other resolutions.


Iraq must provide "immediate, complete and unconditional cooperation" with UN and IAEA inspectors.


UNSCR 1284 - December 17, 1999



Created the United Nations Monitoring, Verification and Inspections Commission (UNMOVIC) to replace previous weapon inspection team (UNSCOM).


Iraq must allow UNMOVIC "immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access" to Iraqi officials and facilities.


Iraq must fulfill its commitment to return Gulf War prisoners.


Calls on Iraq to distribute humanitarian goods and medical supplies to its people and address the needs of vulnerable Iraqis without discrimination.

Additional UN Security Council Statements


In addition to the legally binding UNSCRs, the UN Security Council has also issued at least 30 statements from the President of the UN Security Council regarding Saddam Hussein's continued violations of UNSCRs. The list of statements includes:

[Chase]

So, United Nations diplomacy obviously didn't work... nor did sanctions. His massacres and human rights still went on... as did his ambitions to develop biological and chemical weapons. So... please tell me how you would get Saddam Hussein to end his tyranny...

[Chase]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ana4Stapp)

Just a little word here: OIL

Michael Moore just called and asked me to tell you to stop plagiarizing his conspiracy theories.

[Ana4Stapp]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chase)

Michael Moore just called and asked me to tell you to stop plagiarizing his conspiracy theories.

Well I dont NEED to plagiarize anyone since I have my own ideas and of course enough knowledge. ..but at least ..you are a creative guy..

But answer Raplhys question: why the best and powerful country in theworld didnt start a war to eliminate the cruel dictators in Zimbabwe, North Korea etc...? I remember asking you this same question...but not your answer ...

[RalphyS]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chase)

"Involuntary sacrifice?" Thousands of brave Americans enlisted after the war had started and were willing to get rid of this blood thirsty tyrant and his equally sadistic sons, Uday and Qusay.

This answer I find typically American. In the original sentence I mentioned over a thousand US soldiers AND tens of thousands of Iraqis. I also mentioned "for some" involuntary sacrifice, meaning the Iraqis, not the enlisted men, who are trained for combat and know the risks of their job.

So much do the poor oppressed people of Iraq mean to you, that if I mention the words 'involuntary sacrifice' you automatically assume I'm talking about the brave Americans?

These are the people, who were oppressed by Saddam, they should have a choice whether they choose to live under a dictator or die "free". That choice was not given to them. Luckily the survivors showed us with their massive parades and welcoming cheers that they indeed wanted the USA and their coalition to come and liberate them. From all over Iraq we could see the tv-images which were so much alike those of the liberated nations in WWII, cheering people, handing out flowers to Americans driving by, NOT.

But I do think that I am getting where you come from, Chase. Why you have such a hard time to even consider the slightest mistake was made in regard to this war. You have friends and maybe even family fighting in Iraq, in danger of their life, maybe someone even already got injured or worse, I hope not, I do not wish harm to anyone overthere, soldier or citizen, but because of this it is just inimaginable for you, that they may be fighting, getting injured, being in constant danger, in fear of being killed for anything but a righteous reason. You dare not even imagine your chosen leader to put these guys in this kind of position without basing it on the highest moral standards and therefore you counterattack anyone, who even dares to suggest so.

I can understand that position, I even support the fact that a leader should be held to these standards, but whereas you dare not imagine that his reasoning isn't what is should be, I and others like me fear that his reasoning was shamefully dubious, at the very least and therefore we question him constanly upon them, just because we value the lifes of the soldiers (as well as the citizens), who have been placed in this awful situation we call war.

History has shown us that maybe as many soldiers/people died for the wrong as for the right reasons and therefore true patriotism should always question the reasons for putting a nation's people in harm's way.

[Ana4Stapp]

Quote: (Originally Posted by RalphyS)

History has shown us that maybe as many soldiers/people died for the wrong as for the right reasons and therefore true patriotism should always question the reasons for putting a nation's people in harm's way.

Okay...okay...I wont say 'those' words Chase...

[uncertaindrumer]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ana4Stapp)

I dont understand your point of view...why not discuss about war that by the way your powerful and best country started ( well..powerful I can agree...but the best?)

Yes, best. With all its inadequacies, the U.S. is still the country I would live in if I got to pick between any.

Quote:

Anyway isnt it a real war?

Yes, but I think it has been beaten into the ground that it was a mistake. There are better ways to take out a tyrant. I still think Bush was just trying to create another front, one away from our home, but of course that is only speculation.

Quote:

And if this is so repetative to you... you still have the possibility to avoid the thread...

True. heh