Book of Mormon

[Sincirr]

Also Creedsister, thank U 4 your post. I was soooo ready to read it. And I appreciate your comments, and others on this board.

[Sincirr]

Oh! And by the way, I'm female.

Please go back a page and read my comments. It's important.

[creedsister]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Sincirr)

Oh! And by the way, I'm female.

Please go back a page and read my comments. It's important.

I Know

[Higher_Desire]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Luke4488)

Oh yes. Now its my turn for a long post. Sincirr, any help or pointing out something i missed would be very appreciated. I want to be as accurate and correct as possible. I dont want to misinform anyone.

You cannot possibly believe that. Satan was not thrown out of heaven because he wanted to force people to do the right thing. Satan is evil, he wants you to do wrong, not good. He used to be an angel, but he blew it when he wanted to be like God. So God cast him out of heaven to rule hell. And no, Satan is not in hell right now. He is running around the earth getting unbelievers to do more sin and try to make believers lives miserable. But one day, after the final battle, God will win over Satan once and for all and Satan, his demons, and unbelievers will be locked in hell forever. Read Revelation.

You are contradicting yourself in your own post. You say Satan is evil (which, yes, he is) and then you say he wanted to be like God. God is not evil. He is not on earth. He has evil sprits that come to earth to convince people to do wrong, just like God has people here to teach about him. If Satan is on earth, God is too.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Luke4488)

Heaven is where you go when you die if you are saved. If heaven was on some planet, you could go there on some rocket ship, so what would the purpose of life on earth be if you could travel to heaven? There is only one way to heaven, through Christ.

So WHERE is it. By sounds of things, it is just a thought that people have. If it is indeed a place, you can go there. Also, we don't know WHERE Kolob is. There are many galaxies in this universe. Astronomers have proved it. We can't even get out of a small area of our own galaxy.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Luke4488)

If your Journal Of Discourses Vol 4 says that shedding someone's blood is loving our neighbour as ourselves I think that is absolutely stupid. It contradicts that verse that u used H-D.

If it does indeed say that, I don't know because I have not seen it. However, if it says that, it was taken out of context or only a part of a sentence.

Quote: (Originally Posted by 4488)

Well, the religious guidance has to be correct first of all. And you cant tie religions together. A one world religion is what will happen after the Rapture when we born-again Christians are taken away by Jesus himself up into heaven. If you are a true 'Christian' you wont compromise with the rest of the world, because what the Bible says doesnt change over time, humans change, but God and the Bible, they stay the same.

If religions can't be tied together, or have similarities, every sect of Christianity is therefore completly different, as from Catholics, Muslims, Jews, and all others which are Monothestic are all based on different foundings.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Luke4488)

You cant find falseness in the Bible. But it seems like many things in the books the Mormons use almost always contradicts with the Bible. The Bible isnt false, so anything that contradicts it must be.

What about when God appeared to Moses after being let out of bondage in Egypt, and then on the next page where it says that no man has seen God?

Quote: (Originally Posted by Luke4488)

You are right about one thing, God is great and no person will ever be God. We dont become Him, nor do we become like Him. In heaven we will reign with Him as Kings. But we will never become gods. NEVER!

Again we will reign with God in heaven forever when we get there. But we will NOT become gods.

BIBLICAL TEACHING OF MEN BECOMING LIKE GOD: Here is a writing I found by W. John Walsh. No, he is not the John Walse that is the host of America's Most Wanted. PLEASE READ. This is completly written by him.

First, you need to read the rest of Genesis chapter 3. In Genesis 3:22, it states "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil... ". Therefore, as the Lord himself says, Satan told Eve a half-truth. The Adversary lied when he said that Eve would "not surely die", but he told the truth when he said that she would become "like God, knowing good and evil."

To spread the false notion that Latter-day Saints do not show proper reverence towards the Godhead, anti-Mormons often tell people that Latter-day Saints believe that they will become co-equal, or on the same level, with God and no longer worship him. This misrepresentation is a twisting of an LDS doctrine called exaltation, a doctrine which the Bible clearly teaches.

Latter-day Saints believe our Heavenly Father has given us this mortal life to become more like him. Those who are true and faithful in all things will sit in the throne of Christ. (Rev 3:21) They will have the name of God the Father placed upon them (Rev 14:1) We believe that they shall be "heirs of God, and joint-heirs of Christ" (Rom 8:17). What shall the faithful inherit? ALL THINGS according to scripture (Heb 1:2) (See Heirs of God and Joint-Heirs with Christ)

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:48)

"For I [am] the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I [am] holy." (Leviticus 11:45)

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be; but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2)

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." (John 14:12)

We call anyone who sits in the throne of God, has God's name and attributes, and who has inherited all things (i.e. - power, dominion, knowledge) from God-----a god.

Hence the scripture, "God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods....I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High." Psalms (82:1,6)

While we believe that the faithful will enjoy a life similar to our Heavenly Father, we also believe we will still be subject to and worship the God of Heaven, which is represented as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Furthermore, while we will be "gods, even the sons of God" (D&C 76:58), we will never be at the same level as them or stop worshipping them, but we will be like them and enjoy a quality of life similar to theirs.


SINCIRR - I didn't say you were quoting anti-Mormon material. I said you can't learn the fulness of Mormonism through them. Just like you can't become a master of Physics by studying Algebra.

Also, I'm not mad nor do I hate your guts. I am only trying to explain more in-depth about what we believe. I am not afraid to research the teaching of my church, and I actually do it. So far, I have been able to find all answers I needed.

Sorry about not knowing you were a girl. When I first joined the boards, not many people realized I was a guy.

You still have not answerd my question. What religion do YOU believe in? I'm just curious.


H-D

[Higher_Desire]

Oh yeah. And here's something I dug up about that whole "Mormon in Chineese means Gates of Hell" thing...

by Stephen R. Gibson

This gross misrepresentation can be heard in The God Makers movie and from anti-Mormons parroting the falsehood which it foisted upon them. Robert W. Blair, professor of linguistics at Brigham Young University, is one of several scholars who have answered that charge. He explained that in the Chinese language foreign words are converted into characters which, when read aloud, more or less approximate the sound of the foreign word. In the case of "Mormon", it is represented by two characters that closely approximate the English pronunciation of "Mormon."

The second symbol used for "Mormon" would mean "gate", "door", or "way" in the pure Chinese. Professor Blair said the same symbol would be used to represent the second syllable of the names Simon, Truman, Naumann, Gohrmun, or Seimen. The first symbol of "Mormon" could have been written with one or two syllables; depending upon the desired emphasis for the "R" sound. The two-syllable choice would have placed more of an accent on the R: "Mo(are)Men." Instead, the Church selected a symbol that reflects an "r-less accent" or "Mo-Men" sound.

In selecting a Chinese character to represent the first syllable of Mo-Men, almost any one of 30 Chinese characters that are read as "Mo" could have been chosen. Let us quote from Professor Blair's research:

The symbol that was actually selected is the character specifically used to represent a like sounding syllable in foreign words. When not used to render a meaningless syllable of a foreign word, this character suggests "smoothing something with the hand." (If one were to take this literal rendering seriously, one could explain "Mo-Men" as meaning "hand-smoothed Gateway, " or "way smoothed by hands." Further, interpolation might suggest that it was the bleeding hands of Jesus Christ that smoothed the way to Salvation!)

What the crafty enemies of the Restored Church have done is to pervert the facts in such a way that only those knowing Chinese can see their fraud. From the thirty characters which have been reading Mo, they substituted the one which means "devil" (and which is not the one used by the Church) and then propagated the lie that in Chinese the word "Mormon" means "Devil's gate," or "Gateway to Hell."


H-D

[SleeplessAngel]

Having been baptized mormon, and learning the foundations of "religion" from that church. I have to agree with everyone who's disagreeing with the belief system of the Mormon religion. Did you know that Joseph Smith was actually a drunk who had been tarred(sp?) and feathered? Yeah, he was. There's an entire book about his life, his REAL life. Not the life that this lovely church would beg for you to believe. Did you also know that the Mormons have 3 football fields worth of Corn fields some where, because that's where the "good Mormon's" are going to go when Jesus returns to earth because he's going to go there. Just a few other facts you can add into your debate. The one about the corn fields, that came straight from seminary..so..there's no way I could prove it to you but I can try to find the book and link you to it.

[Higher_Desire]

Quote: (Originally Posted by SleeplessAngel)

Having been baptized mormon, and learning the foundations of "religion" from that church. I have to agree with everyone who's disagreeing with the belief system of the Mormon religion. Did you know that Joseph Smith was actually a drunk who had been tarred(sp?) and feathered? Yeah, he was. There's an entire book about his life, his REAL life. Not the life that this lovely church would beg for you to believe. Did you also know that the Mormons have 3 football fields worth of Corn fields some where, because that's where the "good Mormon's" are going to go when Jesus returns to earth because he's going to go there. Just a few other facts you can add into your debate. The one about the corn fields, that came straight from seminary..so..there's no way I could prove it to you but I can try to find the book and link you to it.

Joseph Smith was not a "drunk" per sé, although, yes he did drink alcohol, smoke, and chew tobbacco, HOWEVER that was before the revelation of the Word of Wisdom. After that was revealed, he quit. Also, there have been accounts written BEFORE the revelation of the Word of Wisdom that Emma tried to get him to quit, though he didn't. Once again, you must understand that this was a cultural custom at that time. Tobbacco and Alcohol were widely used by many people. Like I have said how things change over the years, alcohol and tobbacco have changed in the way they are injested into the body.

The corn-fields... yes they exist. There are also wheat-fields, and fields of other grains. They are owned by the church's welfare system and that food that is harvested is sold as grains in mass, and are part of the whole idea have having provisions that will last a long time should your family need them in times of dissaster. Jesus is not going to land in a corn-field in a UFO like some alien, as you seem to have picked up that little factoid. Your seminary teacher had what is called a personal opinion, or a mistake.

Just out of curiosity, do you believe that the movie "The Godmakers" is an amazing documentary? I have never heard of Jesus coming back in a corn-field. That just ain't going to happen.

As your post seems to indicate, you were baptized at a fairly early age, learned the customs of the church, yet didn't learn of how things came about, or to say, the basis of those customs, and then were easily swayed by either misunderstaing teachings or hearing non-doctrinal teachings, and have solidified your ideas in stone, possibly due to hostility towards the church. Just a guess.


H-D

[Luke4488]

Like Sincirr, Im not here to peeve people off. Just trying to help out and show u what I believe and y I believe it. I dont have all the answers, but i will try.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Higher_Desire)

You are contradicting yourself in your own post. You say Satan is evil (which, yes, he is) and then you say he wanted to be like God. God is not evil. He is not on earth. He has evil sprits that come to earth to convince people to do wrong, just like God has people here to teach about him. If Satan is on earth, God is too.

I apologize, I guess I didnt explain myself very well. What I meant was that Satan wanted to rule heaven like God, not do good things. He wanted power.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Higher_Desire)

So WHERE is it. By sounds of things, it is just a thought that people have. If it is indeed a place, you can go there. Also, we don't know WHERE Kolob is. There are many galaxies in this universe. Astronomers have proved it. We can't even get out of a small area of our own galaxy.

No one knows exactly where heaven is. Im not positive, but I really doubt that it is on some planet, because, like I said, Jesus says that no one gets to the Father, except through Him. So if it was on another planet we could travel there without having to believe in Jesus, although I do understand that we cant get out of our little galaxy. But the possibility remains. Also, after the Rapture and the Tribulation and Armageddon, God is going to create a new heaven and a new earth where God's people will spend eternity

Quote: (Originally Posted by Higher_Desire)

If religions can't be tied together, or have similarities, every sect of Christianity is therefore completly different, as from Catholics, Muslims, Jews, and all others which are Monothestic are all based on different foundings.

They do have some similarities but they cannot be tied together into one religion, there would have to be too many compromises. God doesnt compromise.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Higher_Desire)

What about when God appeared to Moses after being let out of bondage in Egypt, and then on the next page where it says that no man has seen God?

He didnt see God, he saw the Will of God, and it appeared to him in the form of a burning bush.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Higher_Desire)

BIBLICAL TEACHING OF MEN BECOMING LIKE GOD: Here is a writing I found by W. John Walsh. No, he is not the John Walse that is the host of America's Most Wanted. PLEASE READ. This is completly written by him.

First, you need to read the rest of Genesis chapter 3. In Genesis 3:22, it states "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil... ". Therefore, as the Lord himself says, Satan told Eve a half-truth. The Adversary lied when he said that Eve would "not surely die", but he told the truth when he said that she would become "like God, knowing good and evil."

To spread the false notion that Latter-day Saints do not show proper reverence towards the Godhead, anti-Mormons often tell people that Latter-day Saints believe that they will become co-equal, or on the same level, with God and no longer worship him. This misrepresentation is a twisting of an LDS doctrine called exaltation, a doctrine which the Bible clearly teaches.

Latter-day Saints believe our Heavenly Father has given us this mortal life to become more like him. Those who are true and faithful in all things will sit in the throne of Christ. (Rev 3:21) They will have the name of God the Father placed upon them (Rev 14:1) We believe that they shall be "heirs of God, and joint-heirs of Christ" (Rom 8:17). What shall the faithful inherit? ALL THINGS according to scripture (Heb 1:2) (See Heirs of God and Joint-Heirs with Christ)

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:48)

"For I [am] the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I [am] holy." (Leviticus 11:45)

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be; but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2)

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." (John 14:12)

We call anyone who sits in the throne of God, has God's name and attributes, and who has inherited all things (i.e. - power, dominion, knowledge) from God-----a god.

Hence the scripture, "God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods....I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High." Psalms (82:1,6)

While we believe that the faithful will enjoy a life similar to our Heavenly Father, we also believe we will still be subject to and worship the God of Heaven, which is represented as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Furthermore, while we will be "gods, even the sons of God" (D&C 76:58), we will never be at the same level as them or stop worshipping them, but we will be like them and enjoy a quality of life similar to theirs.

but if you take notice, many of those verses were cut short and if it wasnt cut off it was only one verse, plus, none of them say we will become gods, if God wanted it to be possible to become gods, wouldnt he have wrote that in the Bible very clearly, so there would be no confusion? Those verses dont mean we will become gods, you have to read more than a verse or two, PLEASE. W. John Walsh didnt read the whole context to get the whole picture. My sunday school teacher has a good phrase for people who take things out of context. It is kind of funny, it goes something like this: If u want to take things out of context and try to make the Bible say what u want it to say, try this, the Bible says 'and then Judas hung himself' and later in the Bible it says 'go and do likewise'. Please dont take that literal, and please dont take offense, its just a humorous example of what people do.

[RMadd]

whew! this all's a lot of reading, and now i'm too worn out to weigh in on sincirr and luke's behalf.

[creedsister]

Proverbs Ch 2~~~Discretion Shall Preserve Thee. Understanding Shall Keep thee To deliver Thee From the Way Of The Evil Man From The Man That Speakeath Froward Things Happy Is The Man That Findeth Wisdom And The Man That Gets Understanding} Once U Find Wisdom U Wont Sell Her At any price And Once U know The Truth U Will No Longer Search For It Anywere Else You Will need not Want Too~~For the merchindise Of it is better than of silver And The Gain Therof Better Than Gold She Is More precious Than Rubies And All Things You Can Desire GOD LIKE DUDES!!!!!! Are Not To Be Compared Unto Her!!! WHOSO LOVETH INSTRUCTION loveth knowlege BUT HE THAT REPROOF IS BRUTISH The Fear Of The Lord Is Is The Beginning Of Knowlege BUT FOOLS DESPISE WISDOM AND INSTRUCTION]

[creedsister]

That It might Be Fulfilled Which Was Spoken By The Prophet Saying I will Open My Mouth In parables I Will Utter things Which Have Been Kept Secret From The Foudatin Of The World....St matt~~13.35

[creedsister]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Sincirr)

Also Creedsister, thank U 4 your post. I was soooo ready to read it. And I appreciate your comments, and others on this board.

Your Welcome Sincirr Please Forgive Im on A roll~~~BY THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD THE ALPHEA AND OMEGA LORD OF LORD AND KING OF KINGS !!!! jesus is lord !!! THAT ye all speak the same thing . and there. Be No divisons!! Amoung You but that ye Be perfectly joined together In the same mind and same jugemeant 1 Cor.10........

[Sincirr]

Quote: (Originally Posted by BearFan)

whew! this all's a lot of reading, and now i'm too worn out to weigh in on sincirr and luke's behalf.

That's okay. I can't either really. I'm just scared for the mormons on this board, cos they have no idea what they are in for.

This verse, H-D
"God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods....I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High." Psalms (82:1,6)

The hebrew word that is used can also mean a sort of magistrate, just as the word Lord can mean a teacher, rabbi.

You are sold out for a cult and U have no idea. And U have no Idea what's coming. They are twising the truth, and I'm concerned for you. I have always watched you on these boards, I think it was just before you put the mariner's avie up, and checked out what U say, but I'm surprised at you now.

What have your authorities said about having your own planet? Ask them, and post what they have said. Bearing in mind, that some of the books still used for teaching, have information concerning this fact, and if they deny it, I will start posting the references. Most people would leave the church if they truly knew what was going on.

My religion. I dont believe in religion, it is used for controlling people.

My church? I think U are asking that so U can tear it apart when I tell you. But ok, I am basically a Christian yes. I have studied 4 semesters of old and new testament, and I attend a church that is a charismatic one. Probably one of the best I have found when it comes to following the Bible and not making up doctrine that is unbiblical. I can't say that I truly represent my whole church as a person, but I truly respect their view on the scriptures and the way they conduct themselves.

You can take your stabs at my belief system as much as u want. I dont really defend them, I defend God's cause.

The god makers, though I have never seen it, has some accounts of people that have left the mormon church. Have U seen it? What did U think?

Sleeplessangel: Hi there.
Before U left the LDS, what was your stand on non-mormon's opinions of your beliefs at the time?

[Higher_Desire]

It seems as though no new arguments are coming up, so why don't we all just agree to disagree? You guys believe one way, we believe another, other people believe other things still. The team of creedsister, Sincirr, SleeplessAngel, and Luke4488 and the team of Facelessman and Higher_Desire will never reach an agreement. Why don't we lay this to rest? Mormonism is not perfect, and doesn't claim to be, but it works for me. It's not what everyone chooses.

Article of Faith #11: We claim the privledge of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own contience, and allow all men, the same privledge, let them worship how, where, and what they may.

And, yes, I have seen the Godmakers. It is full of partial truths, that when examined further, are false understandings. The ex-mormons that were in it did not have a firm grasp on the teachings of the church, and were swayed. If I truly am headed into a cultlife... well then, it's my choice, but I believe that God loves me. He sent his son to die on the cross for my sins. Jesus Christ rose from the dead to bring about the oppertunity for us all to live again. What I do, I do through my own free-will. I am not ashamed. As it has been noted by President Gordon B. Hinckly: "If the Prophet Joseph did indeed decieve the world and all teaching of the Book of Mormon are false, then it is the grandest lie that has ever been told on any scale, eluding over 12 million people in just over 150 years. If the Book of Mormon is false, this whole church is a fraud. But if it is a true revelation, than this is the greatest work that has ever taken place in this or any dispensation."


H-D

[creedsister]

My religion I dont Believe In Religion IT IS USED FOR CONTROLLING PEOPLE. ''''' YOU can take your stabs at my belief system As much As you Want I dont really Defend Theme I defend Gods Cause .......................WHooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooo