Homosexuality Is Result Of Genes, Brain Structure, Hormones, Contradicts fundies.....

[Xterminator27]

Do any of you know what hormones are?

[snake81]

First off I was actually having this conversation at work last night, and what I believe is you do make the choice, if you were born homosexual then that would affect free will, which is what God intended for us, I can't believe for one second God would have a child born with that trait and to suffer like that, I believe it is choice just like it is to choose to worship the Lord.

[SecretWeapon]

Quote: (Originally Posted by snake81)

First off I was actually having this conversation at work last night, and what I believe is you do make the choice, if you were born homosexual then that would affect free will, which is what God intended for us, I can't believe for one second God would have a child born with that trait and to suffer like that, I believe it is choice just like it is to choose to worship the Lord.

Amen.

But the problem here is that not everyone on this forum believes that
God exists.

[Lunar Shadow]

Quote: (Originally Posted by snake81)

First off I was actually having this conversation at work last night, and what I believe is you do make the choice, if you were born homosexual then that would affect free will, which is what God intended for us, I can't believe for one second God would have a child born with that trait and to suffer like that, I believe it is choice just like it is to choose to worship the Lord.

well your idea of free will is flawed there because I don't recall having the choice to be male or female or having the choice of haveing blue eyes or brown or anything like that.... who is to say that one choses their sexuality then? I mean I have know people that from the first time I met them (around the age of 4-5 they have liked the same sex and they do to this day. its not a controlled studay mind you, its just an obsevation. why is it so hard ot believe that one could be born homosexual? does it really warp your faith that much? hell I can recall a time when it was considered sinful (not to mention ilegal) for a white woman to marry a black man but this has changed. Christianity was used to enforce american slavery with the argument that the bible says its ok and comands slaves to obey their masters, hte bible also has rules for owners of slaves regarding their treatment.

so is slavery wrong? you tell me since you are the christian.

[snake81]

Well the decision of your gender, eye color, hair color, skin color is alot different than your sexuality, no you dont have the choice of what you want to be, because it is determined by God (And also by chromosomes and genes) But that decision isnt the same as sexuality, God would not want someone to live the sinful life of a homosexual, man and woman was created for a reason, I still believe it is a choice on your sexuality, it is something you can determine for yourself. As for you knowing a friend at the age of 4 or 5 admitting to homosexuality, I honestly dont believe it, but it still has the possibility of it being true determining on what kind of enviroment he grew up around, but I highly doubt a child of that young of age would even know, mainly because a child of that young doesnt have fully developed hormones.

Also about the slavery issue, I cant honestly tell you because I havent read the Bible, and I dont fully understand it, but times are different now and people dont use it to try and keep black people as slaves, I would actually have to read a passage in the Bible about slavery because I have never heard about that.

[snake81]

crap, cant edit

Anyway here's what i found out about slavery and it was definatley taken out of context during the slavery times in the US.

Quote:

The Bible does not specifically condemn the practice of slavery. It gives instructions on how slaves should be treated (Deuteronomy 15:12-15; Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 4:1), but does not outlaw the practice altogether. Many see this as the Bible condoning all forms of slavery. What many people don’t understand is that slavery in the Bible times is completely different from the slavery that was practiced in the United States in the 1700’s and 1800’s. The slavery in the Bible was not based on race at all. People were not enslaved because of their nationality or the color of their skin. In Bible times, slavery was more of a social status. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their family. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, even politicians were slaves of someone else for one reason or another. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their master.



The slavery of the 1700’s and 1800’s was based on skin color. Black people were considered slaves because of their nationality – most slave owners truly believed black people to be “inferior human beings” to white people. This is similar to the slavery the Jews experienced when they were in Egypt. The Jews were slaves, not by choice, but because they were Jews (Exodus 13:14). The plagues God poured out on Egypt demonstrate how God feels about racial slavery (Exodus 7-11). So, yes, the Bible does condone slavery. However, the slavery the Bible allowed for in no way resembled the racial slavery that plagued our world in the past few centuries.

[SecretWeapon]

Quote: (Originally Posted by snake81)

crap, cant edit

Anyway here's what i found out about slavery and it was definatley taken out of context during the slavery times in the US.

Quote:

The Bible does not specifically condemn the practice of slavery. It gives instructions on how slaves should be treated (Deuteronomy 15:12-15; Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 4:1), but does not outlaw the practice altogether. Many see this as the Bible condoning all forms of slavery. What many people don’t understand is that slavery in the Bible times is completely different from the slavery that was practiced in the United States in the 1700’s and 1800’s. The slavery in the Bible was not based on race at all. People were not enslaved because of their nationality or the color of their skin. In Bible times, slavery was more of a social status. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their family. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, even politicians were slaves of someone else for one reason or another. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their master.



The slavery of the 1700’s and 1800’s was based on skin color. Black people were considered slaves because of their nationality – most slave owners truly believed black people to be “inferior human beings” to white people. This is similar to the slavery the Jews experienced when they were in Egypt. The Jews were slaves, not by choice, but because they were Jews (Exodus 13:14). The plagues God poured out on Egypt demonstrate how God feels about racial slavery (Exodus 7-11). So, yes, the Bible does condone slavery. However, the slavery the Bible allowed for in no way resembled the racial slavery that plagued our world in the past few centuries.

Again, amen. And also, in the Bible, Lunar Shadow (pardon me, I still
don't know your real name) where does it say that having blue eyes,
or blonde hair, etc is a sin? (not to mention height, weight, shoulder
breadth, metabolism, breast/genital size) Nowhere I know of.
And, methinks, nowhere you know of, either. Yet the Bible does plainly
name homosexuality as a sin and strictly condems it. It is then you who
are in error, because, even if Theism is a fantasy, you failed to take
into consideration the laws of that fantasy before arguing
against its laws. Free will refers to the way you act and behave
and, ultimatly, live your life.

Also, you can't hold any individual responsible or accountable
for previous Christians sins. At least, not without accusing all
Christians of being identicle (which is obviously not plausible, when considering all the different denominations and cults).
And, as I remember, you corrected me of that same mistake
in atheists/evolutionists/uniformatarionists,etc.

[Rocketqueen]

interesting i,ll get back on this topic you guys must learn a lot from each other from fighting so much,

[Lunar Shadow]

Quote: (Originally Posted by snake81)

Well the decision of your gender, eye color, hair color, skin color is alot different than your sexuality, no you dont have the choice of what you want to be, because it is determined by God (And also by chromosomes and genes) But that decision isnt the same as sexuality, God would not want someone to live the sinful life of a homosexual, man and woman was created for a reason, I still believe it is a choice on your sexuality, it is something you can determine for yourself. As for you knowing a friend at the age of 4 or 5 admitting to homosexuality, I honestly dont believe it, but it still has the possibility of it being true determining on what kind of enviroment he grew up around, but I highly doubt a child of that young of age would even know, mainly because a child of that young doesnt have fully developed hormones.

Also about the slavery issue, I cant honestly tell you because I havent read the Bible, and I dont fully understand it, but times are different now and people dont use it to try and keep black people as slaves, I would actually have to read a passage in the Bible about slavery because I have never heard about that.

so if all that is decided by what you call genes and god then why is it so hard to actually concvie that the same is true for homosexuality? you say you believe that homosexuality is a chioce. Well I could sit here and believe that the earth is flat it doen't make it so. is there any scientific reasearch in to proving that homosexuality is only a choice? if so where is it please do present it I would love to see the method for the conclusion aside from saying "god and the bible says its bad" try actually arguing with facts rather than an acient book of myth because it is rather tiresome

[Lunar Shadow]

Quote: (Originally Posted by SecretWeapon)

Again, amen.

I will also agree that the argument he borrowed is very well thought out and assurted.

Quote: (Originally Posted by SecretWeapon)

And also, in the Bible, Lunar Shadow (pardon me, I still
don't know your real name) where does it say that having blue eyes,
or blonde hair, etc is a sin? (not to mention height, weight, shoulder
breadth, metabolism, breast/genital size) Nowhere I know of.
And, methinks, nowhere you know of, either. Yet the Bible does plainly
name homosexuality as a sin and strictly condems it.

nice one..... how ever the bible does say that using said genitals prior to marriage is a sin so there is the set up right there just like being homosexual is the set up I do know Christian homosexuals who do not practice homosexuality they feel that god made them that way (to wich I do shake my head after all I am an Atheist) but regardless they abstane from homosexual acts. but in the same breath you say that god gave you genitals and at that point it is your choice waether or not to use them in a sexual manner but as I said the set up from what you believe to be god is there.

Quote:

It is then you who
are in error, because, even if Theism is a fantasy, you failed to take
into consideration the laws of that fantasy before arguing
against its laws. Free will refers to the way you act and behave
and, ultimatly, live your life.

as you have quoted before

Quote:

1 Corinthians 10:23 (NIV) "Everything is permissible" - but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"

Quote:

Also, you can't hold any individual responsible or accountable
for previous Christians sins. At least, not without accusing all
Christians of being identicle (which is obviously not plausible, when considering all the different denominations and cults).
And, as I remember, you corrected me of that same mistake
in atheists/evolutionists/uniformatarionists,etc.

a fair point but I do not know what group you fall in when it comes to chritianity if you feel so inclined to do so by all means do.

[Rocketqueen]

like i posted before most are Grounded in the fact in relgion and what the bible teaches on Homosexualtiy Being Wrong And A Sin they cant get past that fact and nothing else will change their mind its a long shot but it does make sense if i could bring it to light TRADITON OF THE ELDERS, From The New Tes what i get out of it christ was preaching to these people who were GROUNDED by the LAW OF MOSES, Matt 15.and go on down to verse 8 lets just go to 9 k But In Vain do They worship me teaching for doctrines the comandments of Men

[Lunar Shadow]

you know what?


I just realized something rocketqueen and it is your post that did it.....

secretweapon, uncirtain, and anyone else arguing for chistianity in this thread are commiting fallacy the appeal to authority and or the appeal to tradition. this is all been a waste of time because you are not arguing from facts you are arguing from faith.

[Rocketqueen]

thank you im glad i made you realize more for your Discussion and your point and your agurments im not one to convert you but i do believe a lot of what your saying man you study well i dont which does not make a prime canadate for this thread or how ever you spell canadate but it does,nt stop me from putting in my 2 cents i really think it would like really really be a waste of time if you stopped discussion what you believe in

[Xterminator27]

Do any of you know what hormones are?

[snake81]

Ok, before you go off here's what I pulled up.

Quote:

"There is no scientific data that substantiates a genetic or biologic basis for same-sex attraction. Anybody can change." Richard Cohen, at the year 2000 PFOX convention, 2000-MAY-19.

Now my main thing is that if a person comes from a straight family, (And Im talking about they are 100% straight, not pretending to be straight due to society) and that person turns out to be gay. I cant see that being genetics because genetics would have to be something that was in the family. And it does happen that way.

And it has also happened to where people who considered themselves homosexual chose to be hetrosexual and actually stopped there homosexual behavior (And without hiding)