Atheism growing in America

[Lunar Shadow]

Atheists put their faith in ethical behavior

By MELISSA FLETCHER STOELTJE

San Antonio Express-News
SAN ANTONIO -- Melissa and Chanse nibble on club sandwiches and french fries at a local coffee shop. To look at them, they're just another young couple enjoying lunch on a weekday afternoon.

She wears stylish glasses, and her thick black hair is swept up in a ponytail; the only hint of a slightly rebellious streak is the tattoo that peeks from under her shirtsleeve. He is a slight, soft-spoken man with a laid-back demeanor and a full beard.

Melissa and Chanse are young atheists. They don't believe in God. As such, they're part of a small but substantial minority that swims against the overtly religious mainstream of America, a spiritual tenor that has grown more strident in recent times as issues of faith increasingly become entangled with politics and public policy.

The public face of atheism in recent times has been Michael Newdow, who filed a lawsuit over his daughter's having to repeat the phrase "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance. The U.S. Supreme Court eventually dismissed his case, stating he did not have proper parental standing on behalf of his daughter.

The story made headlines for months. But for most atheists, it's not headlines or scandal they desire. They simply want to go about their own lives without hassle or pressure.

Atheists, they lament, are the last minority in this nation that is fair game for bigotry. Experts who study religion in public life concur.

"Atheists are not very well-thought-of in America," says John Green, a senior fellow with the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life. "It's still acceptable to criticize atheists in a way that's not polite. People may harbor negative views about Jews, Catholics, Muslims and evangelicals, but they know they're not supposed to voice those views, so they don't. But it's still OK to say anything bad you want about atheists."

The overwhelming majority of U.S. citizens profess some religious faith, although far fewer attend worship services on a regular basis. The public square has become increasingly dominated by religious (specifically, Christian) rhetoric, from the "values voters" of the 2004 presidential election to hot-button cultural issues that carry a religious edge -- abortion, gay rights, stem-cell research, intelligent design, the right to die.

And yet at the same time a compelling undercurrent is at work. A study done by the Graduate Center of the City University of New York found that the percentage of the population that describes itself as "nonreligious" more than doubled from 1990 to 2001, from 14.3 million to 29.4 million people. The only other group to show growth was Muslims.

"Right now, the fastest-growing religious identity in America is the nonreligious," says Dan Barker, co-president of the Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF), a Madison, Wis.-based group that champions church-state separation and works to educate the public on nontheism.

A study by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life found that 16 percent of Americans (about 35 million) consider themselves "unaffiliated" -- a category that includes "unaffiliated believers," "secularists" and atheists/agnostics.

The latter terms -- atheists and agnostics -- are lumped together, says Green, because they share so many similarities. But there is a subtle difference: Atheists forthrightly affirm that there is no God; agnostics simply say as humans we can never know. Together, they constitute about 3 percent of the American population.

Green says atheists/agnostics as a group tend to be well educated and politically liberal (although, he says, there are atheist Republicans). They tend to cluster in big cities on the East and West coasts. They tend to be younger, not older. They tend to be male more than female.

But what, exactly, do atheists believe in, if not in God?

In a nutshell, atheists believe in reason alone, in those things that can be arrived at through intellect and the scientific method. Concrete evidence for God, they argue, simply doesn't exist. They don't cotton to leaps of faith or anything that involves a supernatural being reaching into human lives. They believe you can live a happy, respectable life based on human ethics that were derived not from God handing down a tablet but from a code of rules that emerged naturally through an evolutionary process in which humans learned how to live together successfully.


source

[theironhorse]

Atheism growing in America?

Not here or anywhere I can see.

We all eventually take some leap of faith, don't we?

[SecretWeapon]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Lunar Shadow)

"It's still acceptable to criticize atheists in a way that's not polite. People may harbor negative views about Jews, Catholics, Muslims and evangelicals, but they know they're not supposed to voice those views, so they don't. But it's still OK to say anything bad you want about atheists."

That's some of the biggest BS I've heard all week. I've been put down, snapped at, left out, chewed up and spit out all my life for being "religious".
I was always the minority in school, being a regular churchgoer and having parents who listened to christian radio stations.

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In a nutshell, atheists believe in reason alone, in those things that can be arrived at through intellect and the scientific method.

I think Francis Schaeffer's "How Should We Then Live" should be read in defiance of that statement.

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Concrete evidence for God, they argue, simply doesn't exist.

Right, right. "Can God make a rock so heavy he can't lift it?" Sure. You want
a square circle or some dry moisture to go with that? It's called a paradox.

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They don't cotton to leaps of faith or anything that involves a supernatural being reaching into human lives.

Hmm... and what catagory does "a code of rules that emerged naturally through an evolutionary process in which humans learned how to live together successfully" file under?

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They believe you can live a happy, respectable life based on human ethics that were derived not from God handing down a tablet but from a code of rules that emerged naturally through an evolutionary process in which humans learned how to live together successfully.

Fat chance. Would that explain the violent actions of godless men, such as Hitler, Stalin, the Chinese government, the Russian government, Osama Bin Laden, and Saddam Husien. (Muslims and Christians/Jews do NOT worship the same God, if you read the Christian/Hebrew scriptures and the Muslim scriptures, you can tell the persona of God is quite different, even the stories are, while simailer, different)

I admit, yes there has also been done much evil in the name of Christ, too, but it is unfair to paint their sins on Christians who actually follow the Bible.

[Lunar Shadow]

Quote: (Originally Posted by theironhorse)

Atheism growing in America?

Not here or anywhere I can see.

We all eventually take some leap of faith, don't we?

you know what the difference is? you don't notice it because Atheists are not inclined to be vocal about what they do or do not believe unlike Christians. We don't like being harrased about these things we are on a whole a silent minority. the ones on the web are vocal because we can be annonomous.

[SecretWeapon]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Lunar Shadow)

you know what the difference is? you don't notice it because Atheists are not inclined to be vocal about what they do or do not believe unlike Christians. We don't like being harrased about these things we are on a whole a silent minority. the ones on the web are vocal because we can be annonomous.

Really? You're not inclined to be vocal? So how do you know that you really are a miinority? I'm sure there are plenty of "closet athiests" I've known several.

[Lunar Shadow]

Quote: (Originally Posted by SecretWeapon)

That's some of the biggest BS I've heard all week. I've been put down, snapped at, left out, chewed up and spit out all my life for being "religious".
I was always the minority in school, being a regular churchgoer and having parents who listened to christian radio stations.

Did the article say that Christians suffered no harassment? No it said that it is more socially acceptable to poke at Atheism than religion you really need to READ the article

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Right, right. "Can God make a rock so heavy he can't lift it?" Sure. You want
a square circle or some dry moisture to go with that? It's called a paradox.

and paradoxes are not scientific there is a phsyical reason for everything science seeks that. There is no scientific evidence for a god or a creator of any sort

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Hmm... and what catagory does "a code of rules that emerged naturally through an evolutionary process in which humans learned how to live together successfully" file under?

You really need to read up on ethics and morals of Atheism to understand how this can be (see Richard Carrier)

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Fat chance. Would that explain the violent actions of godless men, such as Hitler, Stalin, the Chinese government, the Russian government, Osama Bin Laden, and Saddam Husien. (Muslims and Christians/Jews do NOT worship the same God, if you read the Christian/Hebrew scriptures and the Muslim scriptures, you can tell the persona of God is quite different, even the stories are, while simailer, different)

umm dud I hate to break it to you but Hitler, Bin Laden, and Husein all believe(d) in a god so therefore they are not godless... you obviously don't know who your god is though READ THE OT and tell me that your god isn't a violent, wrathful, childish, god

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I admit, yes there has also been done much evil in the name of Christ, too, but it is unfair to paint their sins on Christians who actually follow the Bible.

Oh but wait if you were to follow the bible you would be first in line to restart the Spanish inquisitors
The bible advocated killing:

Gays
Disobedient children
Women who are rapped
Women who are pregnant
Some one who doesn't attend church?
Children of non-believers

The list goes on so why don't you pick up arm and kill every one who doesn’t believe in YOU god? Otherwise you are just as bad as the sinner for allowing these things to happen over and over again.

[Lunar Shadow]

Quote: (Originally Posted by SecretWeapon)

Really? You're not inclined to be vocal? So how do you know that you really are a miinority? I'm sure there are plenty of "closet athiests" I've known several.

I am rare. I am quite vocal myself... I know many Atheist (we have secret meetings how to overthrow the world we are the Evil Atheist Conspiracy )


but honestly most Atheist I know don't find it nesesary to subject themselves to the abuse that the masses put them through (I know I have gotten my share) and I don't blame them for not wanting to put up with that shit. They tend do things in a more passive manner.

[SecretWeapon]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Lunar Shadow)

Did the article say that Christians suffered no harassment? No it said that it is more socially acceptable to poke at Atheism than religion you really need to READ the article

Perhaps you really need to READ the last statement there. Growing up, I was
pressured into denying my christianity out of fear of being a reject. I know
that many other Christians feel the same way. I don't understand how a class
full of young people -who will say something like "why? are you religious?" if I ask them to watch their language- is a minority.

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and paradoxes are not scientific there is a phsyical reason for everything science seeks that. There is no scientific evidence for a god or a creator of any sort

hmm, paradoxes are not scientific? That's interesting seeing as how paradoxes are flaws in thought and theories, which exist. For example,
a theory that one could kill himself by going back in time to kill his (young) grandfather so that his father is never born can be disproved by showing
that the man or women who went back in time to kill his/her grandfather,
never being born, could never have gone back in time to kill his/her grandfather.

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You really need to read up on ethics and morals of Atheism to understand how this can be (see Richard Carrier)

Maybe. you need to read up on Shaeffer.

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umm dud I hate to break it to you but Hitler, Bin Laden, and Husein all believe(d) in a god so therefore they are not godless...

Hitler was fundamentally an athiest who basically believed in "survival of the fittest",
thus the nazi army and WW2. Any 'god' he may have believed in, I do not beleive in.

Second, if you would read the second half the statement you just quoted, you would see my response to your Bin Laden and Husein argument.

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you obviously don't know who your god is though READ THE OT and tell me that your god isn't a violent, wrathful, childish, god

I know my OT, thank you very much, and I don't see a violent, childish god at all. I see a God who is God, who created the universe and everything in it,
I see a Holy God who has done nothing wrong, as He is incapible of sinning, I see a just God who acts in wrath, only in answer to the laws He gave being broken. I see mankind as a fallen, sinful race who has no place nor right to judge God, just as the criminal on trial has no place to judge or accuse the
(in this case perfect and blameless) judge.

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Oh but wait if you were to follow the bible you would be first in line to restart the Spanish inquisitors
The bible advocated killing:

Gays
Disobedient children
Women who are rapped
Women who are pregnant
Some one who doesn't attend church?
Children of non-believers

You left out

Persons guilty of incest
Nations who were not Isreal
Certain members of Isreal
and (at least) two priests of Isreal, whom God killed Himself

Gays, yes, in the nation of Isreal, because they have polluted God's Holy name by their sin.

Show me where is says to kill raped women, I can't seem to recal that part.

^Same thing with pregnangt women.

Someone who does not attend church?! Where is that at?

Children of non believers? What? I'll need a reference as I seem to have missed/ forgotten that part, also.

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The list goes on so why don't you pick up arm and kill every one who doesn’t believe in YOU god? Otherwise you are just as bad as the sinner for allowing these things to happen over and over again.

Umm did you miss that small part of the Bible called the New Testament?
All I can do, in the end, is pray for the world, but that seems futile, since
after seeing the state of the world (and reading Revelation) I know that
it is pointless to try and stop the evil in the world, God has to do that in His own time. I can help people when I can, and I do my best to do so, but I
will not kill everyone who doesn't believe in my God, because, unlike what you say, I would then, in truth, not become better than Bin Laden and Hitler,
as you said, but I will become just like them.

[Lunar Shadow]

Quote: (Originally Posted by SecretWeapon)

Perhaps you really need to READ the last statement there. Growing up, I was
pressured into denying my christianity out of fear of being a reject. I know
that many other Christians feel the same way. I don't understand how a class
full of young people -who will say something like "why? are you religious?" if I ask them to watch their language- is a minority.

I didn't say that you were not have a hard childhood with your faith but what I am saying is that Atheists are more harassed because of the simple fact being that there are more Christians, Jews, Muslims, and other theists that will criticize and persecute Atheists. Just by sheer numbers there are more to persecute Atheists than there are to persecute Christians.

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hmm, paradoxes are not scientific? That's interesting seeing as how paradoxes are flaws in thought and theories, which exist. For example,
a theory that one could kill himself by going back in time to kill his (young) grandfather so that his father is never born can be disproved by showing
that the man or women who went back in time to kill his/her grandfather,
never being born, could never have gone back in time to kill his/her grandfather.

Yeah that is really scientific time travel something that at this point is barely on the fringe of science. Uh huh yeah REAL SCIENTIFIC

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Maybe. you need to read up on Shaeffer.

I am familiar with his works I just didn't recognize the name 'til I searched it. I have and there is nothing new or special about him just the same old same old.

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Hitler was fundamentally an athiest who basically believed in "survival of the fittest",
thus the nazi army and WW2. Any 'god' he may have believed in, I do not beleive in.

you need to read up on Hitler (start with Mein Kampf) he in fact did believe in god the Christian god to be exact (*that is the closest version of god you could identify him with) it is the Christian/Catholic Church who have propagated the lie that Hitler was an Atheist.

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Second, if you would read the second half the statement you just quoted, you would see my response to your Bin Laden and Husein argument.

I read it but you lumped Bin Laden and Hussein in the godless types... just because you claim that they believe in a different god than you, doesn’t make them godless they have a god. DUH!

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I know my OT, thank you very much, and I don't see a violent, childish god at all. I see a God who is God, who created the universe and everything in it,
I see a Holy God who has done nothing wrong, as He is incapible of sinning, I see a just God who acts in wrath, only in answer to the laws He gave being broken. I see mankind as a fallen, sinful race who has no place nor right to judge God, just as the criminal on trial has no place to judge or accuse the
(in this case perfect and blameless) judge.

You have got to be kidding right? I mean come on the god of the OT and NT are not the same only some one blinded by faith would not be able to see that and the OT god did go back on his word and changed his mind... so much for being perfect.

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You left out

Persons guilty of incest
Nations who were not Isreal
Certain members of Isreal
and (at least) two priests of Isreal, whom God killed Himself

Yeah I know I just named a few off the top of my head

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Gays, yes, in the nation of Isreal, because they have polluted God's Holy name by their sin.

its great to know that you are a bigot I thought hatred was a sin

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Show me where is says to kill raped women, I can't seem to recal that part.

I will need to reference back but basically it says to kill the woman and compensate the father for destroying his "property" and since the woman was no longer pure she must be put to death.

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^Same thing with pregnangt women.

it was during Israel’s conquering of the "Promise Land" they were instructed to kill every one men women children and even the women with child they were to cut the women open and kill the fetuses and "dash the babies heads on rocks" [sarcasm]No Christian wants to remember that now do they it is so convenient to ignore because it is grotesque and no loving god would ever do that to a defenseless fetus remember abortion is wrong.[/sarcasm]

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Someone who does not attend church?! Where is that at?

Honor the Sabbath and keep it holy if one works on the Sabbath he shall be put to death

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Children of non believers? What? I'll need a reference as I seem to have missed/ forgotten that part, also.

See above answer about Israel’s march on the "Promise Land"(tm)

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Umm did you miss that small part of the Bible called the New Testament?
All I can do, in the end, is pray for the world, but that seems futile, since
after seeing the state of the world (and reading Revelation) I know that
it is pointless to try and stop the evil in the world, God has to do that in His own time. I can help people when I can, and I do my best to do so, but I
will not kill everyone who doesn't believe in my God, because, unlike what you say, I would then, in truth, not become better than Bin Laden and Hitler,
as you said, but I will become just like them.

So why have an OT? I mean really why have the rules from Leviticus? (Where most Christians get them idea that homosexuality is wrong (Lev 19) not to mention tattoos and other things. so why is the OT even considered to be part of the "holy book" if you are just gonna disregard what it teaches?

You can't pick and chose what rules you want to follow and what rules you want to ignore but all Christians ignore some rules which is hypocarcy

[SecretWeapon]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Lunar Shadow)

I didn't say that you were not have a hard childhood with your faith but what I am saying is that Atheists are more harassed because of the simple fact being that there are more Christians, Jews, Muslims, and other theists that will criticize and persecute Atheists. Just by sheer numbers there are more to persecute Atheists than there are to persecute Christians.

I disagree. I do not beleive that atheism is as rare as suggested.

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Yeah that is really scientific time travel something that at this point is barely on the fringe of science. Uh huh yeah REAL SCIENTIFIC

It's called ABSTRACT HY- nevermind, you'd just blindly sas me again...

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you need to read up on Hitler (start with Mein Kampf) he in fact did believe in god the Christian god to be exact (*that is the closest version of god you could identify him with) it is the Christian/Catholic Church who have propagated the lie that Hitler was an Atheist.

I think that the main problem we are having here is that you are unaware of MY own personal belief system, I do not catagorize myself on the same group with every other human being on the planet who says that they believe in a god/higher power. If I did, I would be in the same group with you, worshipping your Nature.

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I read it but you lumped Bin Laden and Hussein in the godless types... just because you claim that they believe in a different god than you, doesn’t make them godless they have a god. DUH!

No, no, no, wait, wait... you kidding right? WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO STOP?! The God that I believe in is the ONE AND ONLY GOD, so when I call Bin Laden and Hussein Godless, I mean that they are seperate from the TRUE God, the Christian and Hebrew God. Godless. Jehova-less. Yaweh-less.

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You have got to be kidding right? I mean come on the god of the OT and NT are not the same only some one blinded by faith would not be able to see that and the OT god did go back on his word and changed his mind... so much for being perfect.

Well if He did "go back on his word and change his mind" with someone with your attitude, would you blame him? So much for your arguement.

PS. God is true to his word, but a deal is off when the other party (humans, the IMperfect ones) break the bargain first.

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its great to know that you are a bigot I thought hatred was a sin

It's great to know you're out of line, I thought misquoting was unscientific.

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I will need to reference back but basically it says to kill the woman and compensate the father for destroying his "property" and since the woman was no longer pure she must be put to death.

Interesting. I'll await the reference. That is, if there is one.

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[sarcasm]No Christian wants to remember that now do they it is so convenient to ignore because it is grotesque and no loving god would ever do that to a defenseless fetus remember abortion is wrong.[/sarcasm]

Come on, you can't honestly say that evolutionists are not overly guilty of this... Plenty of evidence has been ignored and plenty of creation scientists have never had a voice,
completey due to the fact they they don't believe in the Evolutionary Theory. If you don't believe this is true, then
I feel sorry for you, you've been severely had.

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Honor the Sabbath and keep it holy if one works on the Sabbath he shall be put to death

Yeah, it says what it says. It never says kill someone who doesn't go to church... it says REST on the Sabbath. Keep it Holy. To be Holy means to be
"set apart as different", God rested on the seventh day of the creation of the world, and then He sanctified that day and MADE IT HOLY. OR, He sanctified that day and SET IT APART AS DIFFERENT. So naturally, it would be illegal to work on a non-working day. Since God sanctified it on the seventh day, when He rested.

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So why have an OT? I mean really why have the rules from Leviticus? (Where most Christians get them idea that homosexuality is wrong (Lev 19) not to mention tattoos and other things. so why is the OT even considered to be part of the "holy book" if you are just gonna disregard what it teaches?

You can't pick and chose what rules you want to follow and what rules you want to ignore but all Christians ignore some rules which is hypocarcy

And I don't pick and choose I do my best to keep the rules, only when Jesus came and paid the sacrifiece for sins, the animal sacrifices were done away with. Jesus said that He did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it.

btw, in the NT Romans 1:23-32, it says-

"...And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and
fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their
own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between
themselves: who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient.

Being filled with all unrighteosness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit,malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things,
disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: who knowing the judgement of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do
the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."

[Lunar Shadow]

Quote: (Originally Posted by SecretWeapon)

I disagree. I do not beleive that atheism is as rare as suggested.

well if you look at the census numbers you would learn that only 3% of the country is Atheists/Agnostic so I guess you learn somethign new today

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I think that the main problem we are having here is that you are unaware of MY own personal belief system, I do not catagorize myself on the same group with every other human being on the planet who says that they believe in a god/higher power. If I did, I would be in the same group with you, worshipping your Nature.

I do not worship anything and I am annoyed with your presuption that I worship nature.
[quote]
No, no, no, wait, wait... you kidding right? WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO STOP?! The God that I believe in is the ONE AND ONLY GOD, so when I call Bin Laden and Hussein Godless, I mean that they are seperate from the TRUE God, the Christian and Hebrew God. Godless. Jehova-less. Yaweh-less.
[quote]
All Theists say that they have the one true god you are nothing special in assurting this I mean if you were to ask Bin Laden he would say that he has the one true god and that the infidel chistians don't know what they are talking about

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Well if He did "go back on his word and change his mind" with someone with your attitude, would you blame him? So much for your arguement.

PS. God is true to his word, but a deal is off when the other party (humans, the IMperfect ones) break the bargain first.

I am not even going to justify this with a response

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It's great to know you're out of line, I thought misquoting was unscientific.

where?

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Come on, you can't honestly say that evolutionists are not overly guilty of this... Plenty of evidence has been ignored and plenty of creation scientists have never had a voice,
completey due to the fact they they don't believe in the Evolutionary Theory. If you don't believe this is true, then
I feel sorry for you, you've been severely had.

what does that have to do with the price of tea in china? STAY ON TOPIC!!!!!!!!!

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Yeah, it says what it says. It never says kill someone who doesn't go to church... it says REST on the Sabbath. Keep it Holy. To be Holy means to be
"set apart as different", God rested on the seventh day of the creation of the world, and then He sanctified that day and MADE IT HOLY. OR, He sanctified that day and SET IT APART AS DIFFERENT. So naturally, it would be illegal to work on a non-working day. Since God sanctified it on the seventh day, when He rested.

so tell me have you ever worked on saturday? if so then we should kill you now.

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And I don't pick and choose I do my best to keep the rules, only when Jesus came and paid the sacrifiece for sins, the animal sacrifices were done away with. Jesus said that He did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it.

do you wear mixed fibers?
have you eaten food prepared by a woman on her period? (if you eat our you may have and would have never known)
would you kill your son if he disobeyed you?
these are in in Lev 19

would you sell your daughter in to slavery? YES the bible allows this

[JulieCitySlicker]

I guess that believing in nothing is easier for some than believing in something

[Lunar Shadow]

Quote: (Originally Posted by JulieCitySlicker)

I guess that believing in nothing is easier for some than believing in something

you'd like to think that wouldn't you Julie.

truth be told in some ways life is easier but in many others its not, that is the trade off in anything you decide.

[uncertaindrumer]

Wow... the idea that its easier to be religious than atheistic is so SO off base...

[uncertaindrumer]

And someone said there is no scientific evidence for God... No, that is not true. The fact that anything exists is scientific evidence on its own. Many miracles, visions and other things of the sort are also scientific evidence. What you really mean is that there is no proof. But of course that is natural. Proof would sort of defeat the whole purpose.