Militants Surround EU Offices in Gaza Over 'Offensive' Cartoons

[Ana4Stapp]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chase)

That was the only blemish, in my opinion, on President Reagan's tenure as President. I know why they did it... to stop the rise of Soviet backed communist leader... but I don't necessarily think that that it was a wise decision to back far right fascist forces. But, that's the nature of war. Sometimes people ally themselves against a common enemy... in that case, it was Soviet based communism.

So you are saying your governement did something wrong...yeah...seems that we have some progress here...

[Ana4Stapp]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chase)

A fucked up priest... in no way, shape, or form... is as evil as a terrorist who KILLS innocent people in cold blood. A terrorist that kills men, women, children, and the elderly.

Thanks God ... now we are talking the same language...another progress.

[Chase]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ana4Stapp)

So you are saying your governement did something wrong...yeah...seems that we have some progress here...

Of course they did something wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right.

[Chase]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ana4Stapp)

Thanks God ... now we are talking the same language...another progress.

I was saying that a murdering terrorist is worse than a perverted priest. I don't know if you got that or not lol

[Ana4Stapp]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chase)

I was saying that a murdering terrorist is worse than a perverted priest. I don't know if you got that or not lol

Hey I need to go to bed!!!! My eyes arent working anymore ... also its tooo late here and honestly I always get what you say but now...lol

you know its sooo disappointing-- much more than your defense for some cartoons in newspapers or because US need to invade a country to spreed democracy...
I can understand --not agree -- with your points here ...but you know... I CANT understand your comment...theres no sense...Im so disappointed that you have no idea...

sorry...

PS: Oh MY God!!!! Theres no progress in here!!!!!! Too bad!

[Chase]

Do you not think of terrorists as evil? Or do you not understand me because of the language barrier?

[Ana4Stapp]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chase)

Do you not think of terrorists as evil? Or do you not understand me because of the language barrier?

wow! Finally im back (not sure why I was offline...)

Of course I think terrorists are evil!!!!! I can understand your point --they are cowards people who kill innocents: kids, women, men...


And YES...I can really understand you!!!!!!!! Theres no language barrier between us... lol--- otherwise how could we keep our debates ????

PS: well ... hum... yes ... maybe I can see a 'language barrier' by PMs (when you dont answer them ) but not on board...lol

[RalphyS]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ana4Stapp)

Look, Ralphy Im a person who ALWAYS defended FREEDOM in all means-- I grew up in a country that lived a long era of dictatorship...so FREEDOM is a very important thing to me and to my people...
I m a history teacher with liberal point of view --who always voted for lefts party (btw - The Workers Party!) so democracy is a word I really love. But I think that we have to "USE" democracy and all the rights with RESPONSABILITY!!!!!!!!!!
So you and Chase are saying that in the name of freedom we can do wverything we want???? EVERYTHING????

Can you imagine if those cartoons were refering to the Holocaust?? Would europeans think the same???? Oh ..jews nreed to be tolerant...ihn the name of freedom!!!!!! One thing is say " I hate Bush foreign policy and all the its represents all over the world "and other is kill George Bush and all the american people because they represent the opressor and unfair capitalism that condemned my people to the poverty" This is insane!!!!!!!!!!!

Look Ana, as you've seen in other threads/debates I clearly don't always agree with Chase on everything. No-one was more disappointed about Bush's theft of the presidency and how the majority of the American electorate rewarded him for it by re-electing him. I was against the invasion of Iraq, because I did not believe there was a connection between Al-Queayda and Saddam Hussein and the story of WMD's was blown totally out of proportion.

I do however feel that islamic fundamentalism/radicalism needs to be addressed forcefully, if we want to get rid of terrorism. Therefore we cannot compromise the basic western values as freedom of speech and freedom of press to appease people, who resort to violence over a (maybe poor) attempt of humor about a human, who has been dead for over 1200 years. We cannot let the radicals dictate our actions.

As a teacher of history you will remember that the British prime minister Chamberlain also tried to appease Hitler after he invaded Czechy (sp?) in 1938, he basically stated, ok, we will look the other way this time, but this is were it stops. Ofcourse it didn't.

I'm all for negotiating with moderate muslims to hopefully live in peacefull coexistence, but I am not willing to sacrifice our western values for it. The buck has to stop somewhere and I am not willing to sacrifice some cartoonists, newspapermen or whoever to the wishes of an angry mob.

I even cannot understand why cartoons about the holocaust come even close to comparing to this. The holocaust was a terrible tragedy in which millions of people were killed, how many people were physically hurt by the cartoon of Muhammad. Still I myself am not above making jokes about Jews and Hitler on occasion, insensitive, yes, but we live in a free society and if I want to be insensitive it is my right to be so. Do I feel it is wrong to make cartoons about the holocaust, probably, but if it happens I will have to deal with it, I may protest to them and find them in poor taste, but I cannot dictate others not to make them, unless there are commonly agreed laws upon which I can sue the makers.

I do agree with Chase, that the islam has never learned to deal with people of other beliefs/worldviews, as the Christian/Catholic Church had to at earlier times. Christianity used to be just as intolerant if not more in centuries past and it had to learn over time that, what they called heresy or blasphemy, is just another opinion on the subject, that you will have to deal with and coexist with. Maybe now it's time that islam learns the same. To be honest there are enough muslims, who are not reacting with violence and the sad thing is, that once again they, through their religion, get blamed for the actions of the radicals. It's a hard lesson for islam, but it is one they have to learn, imo.

On the other subject, the comparison of a pedophile to a murderer, both are terrible acts and are severely punishable by law. But the killing of someone gets a harder punishment as the sexual molestation of someone, it is generally considered to be a more worse crime, since it ends a life. The sexual molestation of a child makes a life very, very hard and painful to live, but there is some hope of some recovery, whereas the killing of a life leaves no hope. This is how we measure the severity of the crime, so on this point too I have to agree with Chase, although I find the comparison not very appropriate.

[Ana4Stapp]

Quote: (Originally Posted by RalphyS)

Look Ana, as you've seen in other threads/debates I clearly don't always agree with Chase on everything. No-one was more disappointed about Bush's theft of the presidency and how the majority of the American electorate rewarded him for it by re-electing him. I was against the invasion of Iraq, because I did not believe there was a connection between Al-Queayda and Saddam Hussein and the story of WMD's was blown totally out of proportion.

Well, I can agree with everything you said in this first paragraph...no surprise...

Quote: (Originally Posted by RalphyS)

do however feel that islamic fundamentalism/radicalism needs to be addressed forcefully, if we want to get rid of terrorism. Therefore we cannot compromise the basic western values as freedom of speech and freedom of press to appease people, who resort to violence over a (maybe poor) attempt of humor about a human, who has been dead for over 1200 years. We cannot let the radicals dictate our actions.

Defending cartoons published in the newspaper really wont help the efforts in
slowing down the terrorist activities but the opposite is true: we are observing the increase of the anti-occidental sentiment, especially being targets : US and Europe.

Quote: (Originally Posted by RalphyS)

As a teacher of history you will remember that the British prime minister Chamberlain also tried to appease Hitler after he invaded Czechy (sp?) in 1938, he basically stated, ok, we will look the other way this time, but this is were it stops. Ofcourse it didn't.

As an history teacher I remember that Germany got the Sudetenland in October 10, and de facto control over the rest of Czechoslovakia as long as Hitler promised to go no further...but we all know the rest of this promise...I meant europeans ignored Hitler strenght for so long and how long are we 'preapring' and ignoring another charismathic leader in the Middle East????

Quote: (Originally Posted by RalphyS)

I'm all for negotiating with moderate muslims to hopefully live in peacefull coexistence, but I am not willing to sacrifice our western values for it. The buck has to stop somewhere and I am not willing to sacrifice some cartoonists, newspapermen or whoever to the wishes of an angry mob.

Our western values are already sacrificed: FREEDOM --- Im not talking about theory ..Im trefering to put into practice...for example ask your latest ally Chase (hes american, right?) if he feels really safe in going to Europe (at least he said he will go to Europe) in the next semester (I think)...oh you can say -- but hes free to choose to going in there...but is this the real point????

Quote: (Originally Posted by RalphyS)

I even cannot understand why cartoons about the holocaust come even close to comparing to this. The holocaust was a terrible tragedy in which millions of people were killed, how many people were physically hurt by the cartoon of Muhammad. Still I myself am not above making jokes about Jews and Hitler on occasion, insensitive, yes, but we live in a free society and if I want to be insensitive it is my right to be so. Do I feel it is wrong to make cartoons about the holocaust, probably, but if it happens I will have to deal with it, I may protest to them and find them in poor taste, but I cannot dictate others not to make them, unless there are commonly agreed laws upon which I can sue the makers.

I think its definitely an unecessary thing...we really need this? You can see a new war which started because of someone thought that ridiculing muslims religions was "funny" . 'Very' Cool! 'Very' smart! Very coward !

Quote: (Originally Posted by RalphyS)

I do agree with Chase, that the islam has never learned to deal with people of other beliefs/worldviews, as the Christian/Catholic Church had to at earlier times. Christianity used to be just as intolerant if not more in centuries past and it had to learn over time that, what they called heresy or blasphemy, is just another opinion on the subject, that you will have to deal with and coexist with. Maybe now it's time that islam learns the same. To be honest there are enough muslims, who are not reacting with violence and the sad thing is, that once again they, through their religion, get blamed for the actions of the radicals. It's a hard lesson for islam, but it is one they have to learn, imo.

I can understand Chase saying it --but seriously -- I cant believe in you doing the same...(this thread is so weird that Im agreeing with Ryan --who most of the times agrees with Chase and consequently disagreeing with you- who until now-- always said exactly what I had in my head ...ah...but its okay...Im still disagreeing with Chase...lol)

Look all the religions are intolerant...theres no news here...and frankly Catholic Church is less intolerant these days because lost LOTS of its power ...

Actually I remember something Chase said that I can agree: islan is still in 14 century so we have to deal with it...ignoring or being tolerant...theres no middle ground here...

Quote: (Originally Posted by RalphyS)

On the other subject, the comparison of a pedophile to a murderer, both are terrible acts and are severely punishable by law. But the killing of someone gets a harder punishment as the sexual molestation of someone, it is generally considered to be a more worse crime, since it ends a life. The sexual molestation of a child makes a life very, very hard and painful to live, but there is some hope of some recovery, whereas the killing of a life leaves no hope. This is how we measure the severity of the crime, so on this point too I have to agree with Chase, although I find the comparison not very appropriate.

Amazing the way you are agreeing with Chase ...lol

Seriosuly I cant even think about pedophiles...they are pervert people who most of the times were abused too...I cant compare death to sex abuse...Can you ? Sometimes sexual molestation of a child let not hope --because for some children... trying to 'live' with this kind of scars is even worse than death ...

[Ana4Stapp]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chase)

Of course they did something wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right.

why exactly you think it was wrong???? Im curious...

[RalphyS]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ana4Stapp)

Defending cartoons published in the newspaper really wont help the efforts in slowing down the terrorist activities but the opposite is true: we are observing the increase of the anti-occidental sentiment, especially being targets : US and Europe...(

I am not defending these cartoons, because I think that this will decrease anti-occidental sentiment. It is clear at this time that it will increase it, but I am not willing to sacrifice the values of the occident (I never heard of this word before and had to look it up actually) like freedom of speech and press to reduce this anti-occidental sentiment. If all the people in the US and Europe would convert to islam, this would also remove anti-occidental sentiment, but I am not willing to do that, just as I am not willing to apologize for the values we have in our western culture, which led to the publication of these cartoons.

What I would like to know from you, Ana, is what you think should be done about the cartoons? Do you think Europe and the US should formally apologize to islam nations, the islam belief or islam clerics? And if you do, do you think they should do that, because it was wrong to draw and publish these cartoons or should they apologize just because it will maybe calm them down? If we do apologize should we also apologize about Salman Rushdie's book "The Satanic Verses" in which, according to the muslim fundamentalists, the prophet and islam were insulted? In fact, should the press use another standard of scrutiny towards the excesses of the islam as it does towards other things, just because we might piss them off again (excuse my French).

If we give in now and we do apologize, where does it stop? I probably agree that there needs to be a certain level of responsibility and sensibility, but where do we draw the lines? The political leader of Iraq stated that Israel should be wiped off the map of the world, some cartoonists drew some over-the-top illustrations in a relatively small European (Danish) newspaper, yet the latter is excused of being insensitive, the comparison stinks. We let them get away with murder, so to speak, and we should pay heed to our every word and drawing about islam or Muhammad.

If they feel they have a right to be angry at the West for this, so be it. I feel we have much more reason to be angry, yet we try to do the civilized thing and talk about it.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ana4Stapp)

As an history teacher I remember that Germany got the Sudetenland in October 10, and de facto control over the rest of Czechoslovakia as long as Hitler promised to go no further...but we all know the rest of this promise...I meant europeans ignored Hitler strenght for so long and how long are we 'preapring' and ignoring another charismathic leader in the Middle East????

I do not think it was the strenght of Hitler they ignored, it was just that they thought that if they give him a finger (Czechoslovakia), he would be satisfied not to take the rest of the hand. They thought they could control him by appeasing him. Just like you think you can control the radical forces in islam, if we are just always accomodating them. Btw I don't think the military strength of the islamic nations can in any way compare to that of the Third Reich, if you take the different times ( +/- 1938 to 2006) into the equation. The only nuclear islamic nation is Pakistan, but they could never take a stand against a combination of nuclear powers like France, England and the USA, but this is not what terrorism is about so it is basically not the problem here.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ana4Stapp)

Our western values are already sacrificed: FREEDOM --- Im not talking about theory ..Im trefering to put into practice...for example ask your latest ally Chase (hes american, right?) if he feels really safe in going to Europe (at least he said he will go to Europe) in the next semester (I think)...oh you can say -- but hes free to choose to going in there...but is this the real point????

Yes, after the terrorist attacks in the States, Djakarta, Nairobi, Madrid, London, we had to take some actions that infringed on our privacy and therefore maybe our freedom, but we were coerced in doing so. Some of the measures that have been taken, go to far in my opinion, like listening devices without court orders, but some are necessary, because there is a thin line between freedom and safety, while terrorists try to hurt the innocent. You however are now willing to sacrifice certain freedoms voluntarily, not coercevily, just to appease those who have already infringed our freedoms. It's like saying, let's just try giving them what they want, maybe they will leave us alone than. It doesn't work like that, at some point you have to take a stand, and say this is what we stand for, we won't let you coerce us to put down these basic principles, I think in this case we reached that point.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ana4Stapp)

I think its definitely an unecessary thing...we really need this? You can see a new war which started because of someone thought that ridiculing muslims religions was "funny" . 'Very' Cool! 'Very' smart! Very coward !

Were the cartoons unnecessary, probably! But this is beside the point. In the west we make fun of our innermost principles, we ridicule our leaders, our holy figures, we even ridicule the best of people, we can laugh about almost anything, and we should not have to compromise that for anything. What if these riots hadn't occurred, would anyone have giving a second thought to these cartoons and now suddenly because some muslims (I still cannot think of them as the majority) go all bazurk over them, we have to say it was wrong. This is not how it works. Let's be honest, if the cartoonists and the newspaper would have known what kind of commotion the drawing and publishing of the illustrations would have led to, they probably wouldn't have done it, but that is hindsight. It doesn't take anything away from the fact, that they had the perfect right to do so and calling them cowards for doing so, is more wrong than the actual publication itself, I believe.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ana4Stapp)

Look all the religions are intolerant...theres no news here...and frankly Catholic Church is less intolerant these days because lost LOTS of its power ...

Actually I remember something Chase said that I can agree: islan is still in 14 century so we have to deal with it...ignoring or being tolerant...theres no middle ground here...

So what you are saying is that religions are intolerant and therefore we should walk on our toes in regard to them. No, if I feel something is intolerant, be it a religion or something else, I will address them on it, even attack them for it, if I feel the intolerance goes to far as to warrant it.

You cannot say that the Catholic Church is less tolerant as in the days of the inquisition, sure I still disagree with their viewpoints on homosexuality, abortion, condoms and others, but at least they are not burning people at the stakes anymore.

I do not feel any religion, be it islam, christianity, judaism, hinduism or whatever is above the law. People tend to be more allowing to people who do or say unspeakable things in the name of religion, I look through the cover-up of religion and only see the unspeakable things happening, and no religion is any justification for these things.

I do feel there is some middle ground in dealing with religion and its lack of tolerance of certain things. As long as the religion doesn't affect others in a negative way, I can allow almost anything, I disagree with it and might even make fun of it, but I'll let the believers do their thing. I also accept believers making fun of me for not-believing, just as long as they do not tell me what to do or be.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ana4Stapp)

Seriosuly I cant even think about pedophiles...they are pervert people who most of the times were abused too...I cant compare death to sex abuse...Can you ? Sometimes sexual molestation of a child let not hope --because for some children... trying to 'live' with this kind of scars is even worse than death ...

Do not get me wrong, pedophilia is a very serious and terrible crime, and the people who purport it, should be put into jail for a very long time, maybe forever if they are still having tendencies to repeat their crime, but the taking of a life is the most serious crime of all (except for ofcourse killing more people) and basically every judiciary system in the world thinks so.
Maybe it is even wrong to compare severity of certain crimes, but if we make laws we have to do so.

[Ana4Stapp]

Is this the way you wont sacrifice western values????

But I can see the sacrifice in here ...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11233372/

Quote:

4 more Afghan deaths during cartoon protests
11 killed in week; Muslim clerics call for calm as global unrest persists

[Ana4Stapp]

And more:

Quote:

Incited by al-Qaida and Taliban?

Senior Afghan officials said al-Qaida and the Taliban could be exploiting anger over the cartoons to incite violence. Provincial governor Mohammed Latif said he suspected al-Qaida may have had a hand in the unrest. He said two men from eastern Afghanistan were arrested during the protest and were being interrogated.

“The violence today looked like a massive uprising. It was very unusual,” Latif said.

Will Chase finally UNDERSTAND it???

[Chase]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ana4Stapp)

And more:



Will Chase finally UNDERSTAND it???

You know I don't think it was a good idea to publish the cartoons... but there is no crime against stupidity. They had every right to do so. Just as Al Jazeera has had the the right to air anti-Western propaganda for the past decade. If you're against these cartoons... then surely you're against the racist, anti-Semitic, intolerant propaganda that the Arab media puts into circulation. Peoplek make offensive comments about the Catholic Church ALL THE TIME. Still... you don't see all Catholics rioting in the streets.

... and I actually do feel safe about going to Europe. We're just as much as a target in America... so the possibility of a terrorist attack in Europe doesn't scare me. If I go to the Netherlands... I completely trust the Dutch with my safety and well being for a few months.

[Ana4Stapp]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chase)

You know I don't think it was a good idea to publish the cartoons... but there is no crime against stupidity. They had every right to do so. Just as Al Jazeera has had the the right to air anti-Western propaganda for the past decade. If you're against these cartoons... then surely you're against the racist, anti-Semitic, intolerant propaganda that the Arab media puts into circulation. Peoplek make offensive comments about the Catholic Church ALL THE TIME. Still... you don't see all Catholics rioting in the streets.

Finally!!!!!! I knew you were intelligent, Chase!
But explain to me why you dont think that was a good idea to publish the cartoons...