Most in U.S. Favor Death if Saddam Is Convicted - Page 5

Justify · 04-11-2006, 10:01 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by RalphyS) There is a difference in being against the death penalty and defending the acts of criminals/murderers/dictators, Chase, but it's a fine line and you've yet to show subtlety on these boards

You remind me a lot of the old style westerns, where the good guy wore the white hat and the bad guy wore the black, probably the same movies that inspired Dubya's notion of 'you're either for us or against us'. Well, let me tell you, the world isn't black and white, there's a whole lot of grey around.

Oh and about the money that it costs to keep murderer's in jail, it costs the taxpayers more money if someone is sentenced to death, than to keep him in jail for the rest of their life, but I do not think money is really the issue. Showing people that killing is wrong by killing people is really stupid.

The death sentence is a deterrent. If someone thinks they may lose their life if they take someone else’s life then maybe they will think twice about it. Also many things in this world are black and white. Guess what, Saddam killed 100's of thousands of his own people. That is a black and white issue. There are too many people like you who like to think that some issues are not black and white. Maybe some things in this world are grey but things such as this are black and white. There are evil people in this world and sometimes the only thing that scares them is losing their life. The death sentence is not a pretty thing but it has to exist to deter criminals. If it did not exist I believe there would be far worse crime in the world.

RalphyS · 04-11-2006, 10:24 AM

If the death penalty worked as a deterrent far less murders would have to happen in countries that have the death penalty than in those that don't.

Guess what, that isn't the case, it's rather the opposite. Compare the murder rate of the US per capita with that for Canada for instance, or even that of states in the USA with or without the death penalty. The function of the death penalty as a deterrent simply does not work.

And to be honest, I personally would rather die quickly than spent the rest of my life locked up in jail. It always amazes me how people think how easy it is to be in jail, room and food provided by the government they state, the easy life. Well, I would suggest you try jail for a week and see if you still think it's a piece of cake.

And sure, Saddam broke the law in the most cruel way and he does deserve to be punished, lock him up and throw away the key. I just think the message put out there is wrong, killing people is wrong and therefore he needs to be punished, but wait a minute, if the state kills, doesn't it do the same thing? Yeah, but he deserves it. When Saddam was in power, he too believed they deserved it!

The death penalty is like beating children, who didn't listen. It told you not to fight, kaboom!

I know the story about an eye for an eye, but isn't there also a story about turning the other cheek and isn't there also something about "thou shalt not kill" and not "thou shalt not kill, except for killers".

Justify · 04-11-2006, 10:30 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by RalphyS) Interesting!

I want to get in the Christian part of the debate a bit.
Obviously as an atheïst, hell or heaven, doesn't matter to me, because the only downstairs were going to is five feet under or perhaps a 5 minute fire, that we both won't feel a thing off.
But from the Christian view I always understood someone could repent and convert in the last minute of his life, after a life of terrible misdeeds, say Saddam, and then enter the kingdom of heaven. While someone like Gandhi would go to hell because he did not believe in the Christian God. The American prisons are filled with murderers, who have found God, who are getting state-help going to heaven. Wouldn't it be better to punish them here for their crimes be keeping them locked up and not sending them to this paradisy thing called heaven?

Another thing, now with the news of the gospel of Judas?
Where is Judas? Heaven or hell?

This is not a very good argument. First of all, if you are right and there is no heaven or hell then I will never know any different after I die. But, if I am right and there is a heaven and a hell then you will know immediately after you die. To be an atheist you have to have faith that the earth and universe appeared from nothing. To be a Christian I have to have faith that God was always here. Either way we both have to have faith in what we believe.
You are correct that if a person accepts Jesus as their savior, even after they comment terrible crimes, that they will enter the kingdom of God. God has the power to forgive all sins. But just because God forgives does not mean that there are no consequences for our actions here on Earth. If a person is sentenced to death for a crime they committed then it is up to them to accept Jesus before it is too late. None of us are guaranteed tomorrow so it is left up to us to believe and have faith today. When God gave his laws to Moses he himself said "Eye for an Eye". This is part of God's law. Laws are put into place to deter people and to prevent anarchy. Thus the death penalty is a deterrent as well.

I don't personally know where Judas is. It depends on if Judas really believed Jesus was the Son of God and had faith that he could forgive all sins. Only God knows our hearts.

Justify · 04-11-2006, 10:37 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by RalphyS) I know the story about an eye for an eye, but isn't there also a story about turning the other cheek and isn't there also something about "thou shalt not kill" and not "thou shalt not kill, except for killers".

Eye for an Eye was from the Old testement when God gave his law. These people had no law before this and needed some type of law to abide by. Turn the other cheek was stated by Jesus. It was not meant to be the law of the land it was meant for the individual Christian. Also the term was not Thou shalt not kill. It was thou shalt not murder. Killing and murder are 2 different things.

Here's a definition so you can better understand.
Murder - The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

Kill - To put to death

Quote: (Originally Posted by RalphyS) If the death penalty worked as a deterrent far less murders would have to happen in countries that have the death penalty than in those that don't.

Guess what, that isn't the case, it's rather the opposite. Compare the murder rate of the US per capita with that for Canada for instance, or even that of states in the USA with or without the death penalty. The function of the death penalty as a deterrent simply does not work.

You cannot just compare one country to another. More factors go into the argument than that. There is the issue of population, number of cities, urban areas, crime rates..etc. You also have to look at whether a country has used the death penalty consistantly. The US does not. Some states do more than others. The fact is that it is not used consistantly enough to gather good information. If you look at states such as Texas that use the death penalty frequently the murder rate decreased greatly. So I would argue the death penalty does work as a deterrent.

Chase · 04-11-2006, 01:43 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by RalphyS) There is a difference in being against the death penalty and defending the acts of criminals/murderers/dictators, Chase, but it's a fine line and you've yet to show subtlety on these boards

You remind me a lot of the old style westerns, where the good guy wore the white hat and the bad guy wore the black, probably the same movies that inspired Dubya's notion of 'you're either for us or against us'. Well, let me tell you, the world isn't black and white, there's a whole lot of grey around.

Oh and about the money that it costs to keep murderer's in jail, it costs the taxpayers more money if someone is sentenced to death, than to keep him in jail for the rest of their life, but I do not think money is really the issue. Showing people that killing is wrong by killing people is really stupid.

That's ludicrous. If someone showed up at a shopping mall and started a shooting spree killing everybody in sight... you would expect the police officers to not do anything to stop the guy? Nevertheless... if the Iraqi people don't want to keep this guy alive (for fear that he'll return to power), do they not have the right to execute the man responsible for the deaths of thousands upon thousands? This isn't the Hague... ruthless dictators want to go to the Hague because they know there's no way in Hell that they'll be executed there. Doesn't that say something?

There's no gray. Saddam Hussein brutalized an entire nation and his neighbors. This issue is clearly black and white. You either commit those crimes or you don't. Hussein was hardly acting in self defense when he order the attacks on innocent civilians. I think it's funny how you sit there and assume that I'm President Bush's number 1 fan simply because I disagree with the Dutch school of thought. If you know anything about foreign policy, you would know that Bush (as well as his predecessors) are liberal in that respect.

Chase · 04-11-2006, 01:49 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by RalphyS) If the death penalty worked as a deterrent far less murders would have to happen in countries that have the death penalty than in those that don't.

Guess what, that isn't the case, it's rather the opposite. Compare the murder rate of the US per capita with that for Canada for instance, or even that of states in the USA with or without the death penalty. The function of the death penalty as a deterrent simply does not work.

And to be honest, I personally would rather die quickly than spent the rest of my life locked up in jail. It always amazes me how people think how easy it is to be in jail, room and food provided by the government they state, the easy life. Well, I would suggest you try jail for a week and see if you still think it's a piece of cake.

And sure, Saddam broke the law in the most cruel way and he does deserve to be punished, lock him up and throw away the key. I just think the message put out there is wrong, killing people is wrong and therefore he needs to be punished, but wait a minute, if the state kills, doesn't it do the same thing? Yeah, but he deserves it. When Saddam was in power, he too believed they deserved it!

The death penalty is like beating children, who didn't listen. It told you not to fight, kaboom!

I know the story about an eye for an eye, but isn't there also a story about turning the other cheek and isn't there also something about "thou shalt not kill" and not "thou shalt not kill, except for killers".

Iraqis still have a general fear for Saddam Hussein. They're afraid that he'll regain power. I mean, realistically... he still has a chance of that as long as he's living.

You want to talk stats? Look at Latin American countries where the death penalty is outlawed. They are plagued with alarming murder rates... ALARMING NUMBERS. It does make it easier for some people to kill if they know that they won't kill.

I would rather be alive in prison than die... in all honesty. I mean, granted, I'm sure a Middle Eastern prison is worse than a Dutch prison in the Hague... but still, Iraqis have a rule of law. Hussein is going to be executed because by law, his crimes warrant it.

RalphyS · 04-12-2006, 05:10 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Justify) Eye for an Eye was from the Old testement when God gave his law. These people had no law before this and needed some type of law to abide by. Turn the other cheek was stated by Jesus. It was not meant to be the law of the land it was meant for the individual Christian. Also the term was not Thou shalt not kill. It was thou shalt not murder. Killing and murder are 2 different things.

Here's a definition so you can better understand.
Murder - The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

Kill - To put to death.

"You shall not murder"
The Hebrew word ratsach, used in this commandment, is close to the word murder; kill is a mistranslation, but it does not translate directly to the word murder. While most uses of the word ratsach are in passages describing murder, in Proverbs 22:13 a lion ratsach a man to death, many argue since a lion cannot murder anyone, murder is a flawed translation as well.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Justify) You cannot just compare one country to another. More factors go into the argument than that. There is the issue of population, number of cities, urban areas, crime rates..etc. You also have to look at whether a country has used the death penalty consistantly. The US does not. Some states do more than others. The fact is that it is not used consistantly enough to gather good information. If you look at states such as Texas that use the death penalty frequently the murder rate decreased greatly. So I would argue the death penalty does work as a deterrent.

Yeah, right, kid yourself!

RalphyS · 04-12-2006, 05:33 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chase) That's ludicrous. If someone showed up at a shopping mall and started a shooting spree killing everybody in sight... you would expect the police officers to not do anything to stop the guy? Nevertheless... if the Iraqi people don't want to keep this guy alive (for fear that he'll return to power), do they not have the right to execute the man responsible for the deaths of thousands upon thousands? This isn't the Hague... ruthless dictators want to go to the Hague because they know there's no way in Hell that they'll be executed there. Doesn't that say something?

There's no gray. Saddam Hussein brutalized an entire nation and his neighbors. This issue is clearly black and white. You either commit those crimes or you don't. Hussein was hardly acting in self defense when he order the attacks on innocent civilians. I think it's funny how you sit there and assume that I'm President Bush's number 1 fan simply because I disagree with the Dutch school of thought. If you know anything about foreign policy, you would know that Bush (as well as his predecessors) are liberal in that respect.

Yeah right, the criminals from the Balkan are lining up at the border to come to The Hague!

And you are right if the death penalty is in the law, it sure is lawful to execute. My personal opinion, and luckily indeed the majority in The Netherlands and Europe agree with me (but I wouldn't call it the Dutch school of thought, just as I wouldn't categorize your position as the American school of thought, grey areas remember!) is that I do not agree with a law that condones the death penalty and that's what this debate is about.

Btw killing in self defense or killing someone, who directly threatens the lifes of other people is again a whole other thing as injecting an unarmed and chained man to death, no matter how threatening he was before.

Btw to come back to the murder/kill controversy, so Jesus wasn't murdered at the cross, he was killed, since it wasn't unlawful, he had a trial, didn't he, and he was found guilty by a few more than 12 of his peers?

Also I don't think your Bush's number 1 fan, because you disagree with me or the Dutch school of thought, but because you consider any attack on his policies an attack on America!

RalphyS · 04-12-2006, 05:57 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Justify) This is not a very good argument. First of all, if you are right and there is no heaven or hell then I will never know any different after I die. But, if I am right and there is a heaven and a hell then you will know immediately after you die.

Yep, you'll die clueless, and I might meet a lot of interesting persons in hell, or maybe Budha was right and I will reincarnate or we both will end up in the muslim hell.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Justify) To be an atheist you have to have faith that the earth and universe appeared from nothing. To be a Christian I have to have faith that God was always here. Either way we both have to have faith in what we believe.

Wrong, science has calculated back to a moment of origin, a big bang theory, that seems credible. Do I know for sure, no, but I have yet to find a more solid explanation. What was before the big bang, I don't know, but most scientists think there was no before, since there was no such thing as time. I don't know, but I do not have blind faith in anything. Didn't the earth and universe appear from nothing in your book? The only difference is that you have faith that god made it appear from nothing, whereas I say 'I don't know' what the cause was for the origin, but I don't think it was anything described in any of the holy books that are around nowadays. I only have to deal with the question where did the universe come from, you have to deal with the question where did God come from? Does God have a God that created him?

Quote: (Originally Posted by Justify) Eye for an Eye was from the Old testement when God gave his law. These people had no law before this and needed some type of law to abide by..

Well let me educate you, as soon as people started living together, such a thing as laws came into existence.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Justify) I don't personally know where Judas is. It depends on if Judas really believed Jesus was the Son of God and had faith that he could forgive all sins. Only God knows our hearts.

Well it depends if you believe that it was Judas's mission to 'betray' God or not? Do you know that in the first gospel (Mark) Judas wasn't even personally mentioned as the 'traitor', it was just 'one of the twelve'.

Ana4Stapp · 04-12-2006, 06:18 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chase) Well, seeing as you're defending Saddam Hussein... I don't think you defending Adolf Hitler is much of a stretch.

Sure and by your... (ilogical) logic you defending Saddam's death makes you a murderer isnt it?

For once and for all: I AM NOT DEFENDING Saddam Hussein!!!!!!

Im defending the use of JUSTICE because Im not a barbarian ...

Ana4Stapp · 04-12-2006, 06:21 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by RalphyS) Also I don't think your Bush's number 1 fan, because you disagree with me or the Dutch school of thought, but because you consider any attack on his policies an attack on America!

]

Indeed and in opposite is constantly attacking other people countries...

Ana4Stapp · 04-12-2006, 06:43 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chase) You want to talk stats? Look at Latin American countries where the death penalty is outlawed. They are plagued with alarming murder rates... ALARMING NUMBERS. It does make it easier for some people to kill if they know that they won't kill.
.

Wow Chase!!!! You are a genious! Lets advocate death penalty in Latin America...lets allow this...it will certainly finish the crimes here as the same way it was stopped in the US states where it is in practice...

It surprises me that YOU -who should know about the complexes causes of these crimes(poverty, social difference, bad conditions of life, all kind of governement's negligence regarding to people etc etc etc) simply ignore them...and think that killing the criminals... it will STOP ...It WONT!!!!!!

Anyway I think I need to show you some PROOF ---

http://www.antideathpenalty.org/reasons.html

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/01/17/usdom12437.htm

Chase · 04-12-2006, 08:00 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ana4Stapp) Wow Chase!!!! You are a genious! Lets advocate death penalty in Latin America...lets allow this...it will certainly finish the crimes here as the same way it was stopped in the US states where it is in practice...

It surprises me that YOU -who should know about the complexes causes of these crimes(poverty, social difference, bad conditions of life, all kind of governement's negligence regarding to people etc etc etc) simply ignore them...and think that killing the criminals... it will STOP ...It WONT!!!!!!

Anyway I think I need to show you some PROOF ---

http://www.antideathpenalty.org/reasons.html

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/01/17/usdom12437.htm

Your naive nihilism is always astonishing. There are 265 million people in the U.S., of course there is going to be crime. Yet, when governments warn their people about the dangers of visiting certain countries... one has to look at the root of what's going on there. Out of the top ten countries with the highest murder rates... five of them are South American (Honduras, Colombia, El Salvador, Venezuela, and Bolivia). I'm pretty sure a great deal of those countries have also abolished the death penalty. I mean, it's nice to know that someone can go rape and kill a little girl and get to live a full life... especially after they denied the right to live to someone else.

It is a deterrent. China has billions of people... and they practice the death penalty and even their murder rate isn't has high has some Latin American countries.

So, if someone raped and killed your daughter... you be content with him just sitting in prison. You would find closure in that. Call me crazy... but if someone did that to my child... I would probably want to kill the guy myself.

Ana4Stapp · 04-12-2006, 08:10 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chase) Your naive nihilism is always astonishing. There are 265 million people in the U.S., of course there is going to be crime. Yet, when governments warn their people about the dangers of visiting certain countries... one has to look at the root of what's going on there. Out of the top ten countries with the highest murder rates... five of them are South American (Honduras, Colombia, El Salvador, Venezuela, and Bolivia). I'm pretty sure a great deal of those countries have also abolished the death penalty. I mean, it's nice to know that someone can go rape and kill a little girl and get to live a full life... especially after they denied the right to live to someone else.

It is a deterrent. China has billions of people... and they practice the death penalty and even their murder rate isn't has high has some Latin American countries.

So, if someone raped and killed your daughter... you be content with him just sitting in prison. You would find closure in that. Call me crazy... but if someone did that to my child... I would probably want to kill the guy myself.

I think you should try to make an effort in show some sense in your thought instead of calling me nihilist/terorist/nazist....etc...etc..etc...

but anywasy...to your answer...
If someone raped or killed my daughter/niece etc...of course killing this guy with my hands could pass though my head...ans its normal...I mean thsi is a passionate reaction. I mean a irational one...so I really understand it as one first and natural reaction to its odious crime. Its revenge. I cant blame you for thinking the same.

But you know we cant mix Revenge with Justice. They are different things. One refers to passion..the other refers to reasoning.

And for crimes rate: did you really read the links I put to you?

Chase · 04-12-2006, 08:15 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ana4Stapp) I think you should try to make an effort in show some sense in your thought instead of calling me nihilist/terorist/nazist....etc...etc..etc...

but anywasy...to your answer...
If someone raped or killed my daughter/niece etc...of course killing this guy with my hands could pass though my head...ans its normal...I mean thsi is a passionate reaction. I mean a irational one...so I really understand it as one first and natural reaction to its odious crime. Its revenge. I cant blame you for thinking the same.

But you know we cant mix Revenge with Justice. They are different things. One refers to passion..the other refers to reasoning.

And for crimes rate: did you really read the links I put to you?

You make it sound like justice is constant. It isn't. One form of justice does not transcend borders. Each culture has a different definition of what justice is. Putting someone in prison for life is also revenge... is it not? You're doing it to punish the person and to get back at them. It's revenge.

For the record... some of the most technologically advanced have the death penalty. Not bad for "barbarians," eh?

04-11-2006, 10:01 AM	#61
Justify USER INFO » Status: Misconception Posts: 85 Joined: Feb 2006 Currently: Offline	Re: Most in U.S. Favor Death if Saddam Is Convicted Quote: (Originally Posted by RalphyS) There is a difference in being against the death penalty and defending the acts of criminals/murderers/dictators, Chase, but it's a fine line and you've yet to show subtlety on these boards You remind me a lot of the old style westerns, where the good guy wore the white hat and the bad guy wore the black, probably the same movies that inspired Dubya's notion of 'you're either for us or against us'. Well, let me tell you, the world isn't black and white, there's a whole lot of grey around. Oh and about the money that it costs to keep murderer's in jail, it costs the taxpayers more money if someone is sentenced to death, than to keep him in jail for the rest of their life, but I do not think money is really the issue. Showing people that killing is wrong by killing people is really stupid. The death sentence is a deterrent. If someone thinks they may lose their life if they take someone else’s life then maybe they will think twice about it. Also many things in this world are black and white. Guess what, Saddam killed 100's of thousands of his own people. That is a black and white issue. There are too many people like you who like to think that some issues are not black and white. Maybe some things in this world are grey but things such as this are black and white. There are evil people in this world and sometimes the only thing that scares them is losing their life. The death sentence is not a pretty thing but it has to exist to deter criminals. If it did not exist I believe there would be far worse crime in the world. __________________ Matthew 11:30 His yoke is easy and his burden is light

04-11-2006, 10:24 AM	#62
RalphyS USER INFO » Status: A Melody Posts: 340 Joined: Nov 2004 Currently: Offline	Re: Most in U.S. Favor Death if Saddam Is Convicted If the death penalty worked as a deterrent far less murders would have to happen in countries that have the death penalty than in those that don't. Guess what, that isn't the case, it's rather the opposite. Compare the murder rate of the US per capita with that for Canada for instance, or even that of states in the USA with or without the death penalty. The function of the death penalty as a deterrent simply does not work. And to be honest, I personally would rather die quickly than spent the rest of my life locked up in jail. It always amazes me how people think how easy it is to be in jail, room and food provided by the government they state, the easy life. Well, I would suggest you try jail for a week and see if you still think it's a piece of cake. And sure, Saddam broke the law in the most cruel way and he does deserve to be punished, lock him up and throw away the key. I just think the message put out there is wrong, killing people is wrong and therefore he needs to be punished, but wait a minute, if the state kills, doesn't it do the same thing? Yeah, but he deserves it. When Saddam was in power, he too believed they deserved it! The death penalty is like beating children, who didn't listen. It told you not to fight, kaboom! I know the story about an eye for an eye, but isn't there also a story about turning the other cheek and isn't there also something about "thou shalt not kill" and not "thou shalt not kill, except for killers". __________________ And if you want my address, it's number 1 at the end of the bar Ralphy's Cool Music Site www.aowekino.nl

04-11-2006, 10:30 AM	#63
Justify USER INFO » Status: Misconception Posts: 85 Joined: Feb 2006 Currently: Offline	Re: Most in U.S. Favor Death if Saddam Is Convicted Quote: (Originally Posted by RalphyS) Interesting! I want to get in the Christian part of the debate a bit. Obviously as an atheïst, hell or heaven, doesn't matter to me, because the only downstairs were going to is five feet under or perhaps a 5 minute fire, that we both won't feel a thing off. But from the Christian view I always understood someone could repent and convert in the last minute of his life, after a life of terrible misdeeds, say Saddam, and then enter the kingdom of heaven. While someone like Gandhi would go to hell because he did not believe in the Christian God. The American prisons are filled with murderers, who have found God, who are getting state-help going to heaven. Wouldn't it be better to punish them here for their crimes be keeping them locked up and not sending them to this paradisy thing called heaven? Another thing, now with the news of the gospel of Judas? Where is Judas? Heaven or hell? This is not a very good argument. First of all, if you are right and there is no heaven or hell then I will never know any different after I die. But, if I am right and there is a heaven and a hell then you will know immediately after you die. To be an atheist you have to have faith that the earth and universe appeared from nothing. To be a Christian I have to have faith that God was always here. Either way we both have to have faith in what we believe. You are correct that if a person accepts Jesus as their savior, even after they comment terrible crimes, that they will enter the kingdom of God. God has the power to forgive all sins. But just because God forgives does not mean that there are no consequences for our actions here on Earth. If a person is sentenced to death for a crime they committed then it is up to them to accept Jesus before it is too late. None of us are guaranteed tomorrow so it is left up to us to believe and have faith today. When God gave his laws to Moses he himself said "Eye for an Eye". This is part of God's law. Laws are put into place to deter people and to prevent anarchy. Thus the death penalty is a deterrent as well. I don't personally know where Judas is. It depends on if Judas really believed Jesus was the Son of God and had faith that he could forgive all sins. Only God knows our hearts. __________________ Matthew 11:30 His yoke is easy and his burden is light

04-11-2006, 10:37 AM	#64
Justify USER INFO » Status: Misconception Posts: 85 Joined: Feb 2006 Currently: Offline	Re: Most in U.S. Favor Death if Saddam Is Convicted Quote: (Originally Posted by RalphyS) I know the story about an eye for an eye, but isn't there also a story about turning the other cheek and isn't there also something about "thou shalt not kill" and not "thou shalt not kill, except for killers". Eye for an Eye was from the Old testement when God gave his law. These people had no law before this and needed some type of law to abide by. Turn the other cheek was stated by Jesus. It was not meant to be the law of the land it was meant for the individual Christian. Also the term was not Thou shalt not kill. It was thou shalt not murder. Killing and murder are 2 different things. Here's a definition so you can better understand. Murder - The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice. Kill - To put to death Quote: (Originally Posted by RalphyS) If the death penalty worked as a deterrent far less murders would have to happen in countries that have the death penalty than in those that don't. Guess what, that isn't the case, it's rather the opposite. Compare the murder rate of the US per capita with that for Canada for instance, or even that of states in the USA with or without the death penalty. The function of the death penalty as a deterrent simply does not work. You cannot just compare one country to another. More factors go into the argument than that. There is the issue of population, number of cities, urban areas, crime rates..etc. You also have to look at whether a country has used the death penalty consistantly. The US does not. Some states do more than others. The fact is that it is not used consistantly enough to gather good information. If you look at states such as Texas that use the death penalty frequently the murder rate decreased greatly. So I would argue the death penalty does work as a deterrent. __________________ Matthew 11:30 His yoke is easy and his burden is light Last edited by Justify : 04-11-2006 at 10:55 AM.

04-11-2006, 01:43 PM	#65
Chase USER INFO » Status: Wound Up Posts: 1,160 Joined: Oct 2004 Currently: Offline	Re: Most in U.S. Favor Death if Saddam Is Convicted Quote: (Originally Posted by RalphyS) There is a difference in being against the death penalty and defending the acts of criminals/murderers/dictators, Chase, but it's a fine line and you've yet to show subtlety on these boards You remind me a lot of the old style westerns, where the good guy wore the white hat and the bad guy wore the black, probably the same movies that inspired Dubya's notion of 'you're either for us or against us'. Well, let me tell you, the world isn't black and white, there's a whole lot of grey around. Oh and about the money that it costs to keep murderer's in jail, it costs the taxpayers more money if someone is sentenced to death, than to keep him in jail for the rest of their life, but I do not think money is really the issue. Showing people that killing is wrong by killing people is really stupid. That's ludicrous. If someone showed up at a shopping mall and started a shooting spree killing everybody in sight... you would expect the police officers to not do anything to stop the guy? Nevertheless... if the Iraqi people don't want to keep this guy alive (for fear that he'll return to power), do they not have the right to execute the man responsible for the deaths of thousands upon thousands? This isn't the Hague... ruthless dictators want to go to the Hague because they know there's no way in Hell that they'll be executed there. Doesn't that say something? There's no gray. Saddam Hussein brutalized an entire nation and his neighbors. This issue is clearly black and white. You either commit those crimes or you don't. Hussein was hardly acting in self defense when he order the attacks on innocent civilians. I think it's funny how you sit there and assume that I'm President Bush's number 1 fan simply because I disagree with the Dutch school of thought. If you know anything about foreign policy, you would know that Bush (as well as his predecessors) are liberal in that respect.

04-11-2006, 01:49 PM	#66
Chase USER INFO » Status: Wound Up Posts: 1,160 Joined: Oct 2004 Currently: Offline	Re: Most in U.S. Favor Death if Saddam Is Convicted Quote: (Originally Posted by RalphyS) If the death penalty worked as a deterrent far less murders would have to happen in countries that have the death penalty than in those that don't. Guess what, that isn't the case, it's rather the opposite. Compare the murder rate of the US per capita with that for Canada for instance, or even that of states in the USA with or without the death penalty. The function of the death penalty as a deterrent simply does not work. And to be honest, I personally would rather die quickly than spent the rest of my life locked up in jail. It always amazes me how people think how easy it is to be in jail, room and food provided by the government they state, the easy life. Well, I would suggest you try jail for a week and see if you still think it's a piece of cake. And sure, Saddam broke the law in the most cruel way and he does deserve to be punished, lock him up and throw away the key. I just think the message put out there is wrong, killing people is wrong and therefore he needs to be punished, but wait a minute, if the state kills, doesn't it do the same thing? Yeah, but he deserves it. When Saddam was in power, he too believed they deserved it! The death penalty is like beating children, who didn't listen. It told you not to fight, kaboom! I know the story about an eye for an eye, but isn't there also a story about turning the other cheek and isn't there also something about "thou shalt not kill" and not "thou shalt not kill, except for killers". Iraqis still have a general fear for Saddam Hussein. They're afraid that he'll regain power. I mean, realistically... he still has a chance of that as long as he's living. You want to talk stats? Look at Latin American countries where the death penalty is outlawed. They are plagued with alarming murder rates... ALARMING NUMBERS. It does make it easier for some people to kill if they know that they won't kill. I would rather be alive in prison than die... in all honesty. I mean, granted, I'm sure a Middle Eastern prison is worse than a Dutch prison in the Hague... but still, Iraqis have a rule of law. Hussein is going to be executed because by law, his crimes warrant it.

04-12-2006, 05:10 AM	#67
RalphyS USER INFO » Status: A Melody Posts: 340 Joined: Nov 2004 Currently: Offline	Re: Most in U.S. Favor Death if Saddam Is Convicted Quote: (Originally Posted by Justify) Eye for an Eye was from the Old testement when God gave his law. These people had no law before this and needed some type of law to abide by. Turn the other cheek was stated by Jesus. It was not meant to be the law of the land it was meant for the individual Christian. Also the term was not Thou shalt not kill. It was thou shalt not murder. Killing and murder are 2 different things. Here's a definition so you can better understand. Murder - The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice. Kill - To put to death. "You shall not murder" The Hebrew word ratsach, used in this commandment, is close to the word murder; kill is a mistranslation, but it does not translate directly to the word murder. While most uses of the word ratsach are in passages describing murder, in Proverbs 22:13 a lion ratsach a man to death, many argue since a lion cannot murder anyone, murder is a flawed translation as well. Quote: (Originally Posted by Justify) You cannot just compare one country to another. More factors go into the argument than that. There is the issue of population, number of cities, urban areas, crime rates..etc. You also have to look at whether a country has used the death penalty consistantly. The US does not. Some states do more than others. The fact is that it is not used consistantly enough to gather good information. If you look at states such as Texas that use the death penalty frequently the murder rate decreased greatly. So I would argue the death penalty does work as a deterrent. Yeah, right, kid yourself! __________________ And if you want my address, it's number 1 at the end of the bar Ralphy's Cool Music Site www.aowekino.nl

04-12-2006, 05:33 AM	#68
RalphyS USER INFO » Status: A Melody Posts: 340 Joined: Nov 2004 Currently: Offline	Re: Most in U.S. Favor Death if Saddam Is Convicted Quote: (Originally Posted by Chase) That's ludicrous. If someone showed up at a shopping mall and started a shooting spree killing everybody in sight... you would expect the police officers to not do anything to stop the guy? Nevertheless... if the Iraqi people don't want to keep this guy alive (for fear that he'll return to power), do they not have the right to execute the man responsible for the deaths of thousands upon thousands? This isn't the Hague... ruthless dictators want to go to the Hague because they know there's no way in Hell that they'll be executed there. Doesn't that say something? There's no gray. Saddam Hussein brutalized an entire nation and his neighbors. This issue is clearly black and white. You either commit those crimes or you don't. Hussein was hardly acting in self defense when he order the attacks on innocent civilians. I think it's funny how you sit there and assume that I'm President Bush's number 1 fan simply because I disagree with the Dutch school of thought. If you know anything about foreign policy, you would know that Bush (as well as his predecessors) are liberal in that respect. Yeah right, the criminals from the Balkan are lining up at the border to come to The Hague! And you are right if the death penalty is in the law, it sure is lawful to execute. My personal opinion, and luckily indeed the majority in The Netherlands and Europe agree with me (but I wouldn't call it the Dutch school of thought, just as I wouldn't categorize your position as the American school of thought, grey areas remember!) is that I do not agree with a law that condones the death penalty and that's what this debate is about. Btw killing in self defense or killing someone, who directly threatens the lifes of other people is again a whole other thing as injecting an unarmed and chained man to death, no matter how threatening he was before. Btw to come back to the murder/kill controversy, so Jesus wasn't murdered at the cross, he was killed, since it wasn't unlawful, he had a trial, didn't he, and he was found guilty by a few more than 12 of his peers? Also I don't think your Bush's number 1 fan, because you disagree with me or the Dutch school of thought, but because you consider any attack on his policies an attack on America! __________________ And if you want my address, it's number 1 at the end of the bar Ralphy's Cool Music Site www.aowekino.nl

04-12-2006, 05:57 AM	#69
RalphyS USER INFO » Status: A Melody Posts: 340 Joined: Nov 2004 Currently: Offline	Re: Most in U.S. Favor Death if Saddam Is Convicted Quote: (Originally Posted by Justify) This is not a very good argument. First of all, if you are right and there is no heaven or hell then I will never know any different after I die. But, if I am right and there is a heaven and a hell then you will know immediately after you die. Yep, you'll die clueless, and I might meet a lot of interesting persons in hell, or maybe Budha was right and I will reincarnate or we both will end up in the muslim hell. Quote: (Originally Posted by Justify) To be an atheist you have to have faith that the earth and universe appeared from nothing. To be a Christian I have to have faith that God was always here. Either way we both have to have faith in what we believe. Wrong, science has calculated back to a moment of origin, a big bang theory, that seems credible. Do I know for sure, no, but I have yet to find a more solid explanation. What was before the big bang, I don't know, but most scientists think there was no before, since there was no such thing as time. I don't know, but I do not have blind faith in anything. Didn't the earth and universe appear from nothing in your book? The only difference is that you have faith that god made it appear from nothing, whereas I say 'I don't know' what the cause was for the origin, but I don't think it was anything described in any of the holy books that are around nowadays. I only have to deal with the question where did the universe come from, you have to deal with the question where did God come from? Does God have a God that created him? Quote: (Originally Posted by Justify) Eye for an Eye was from the Old testement when God gave his law. These people had no law before this and needed some type of law to abide by.. Well let me educate you, as soon as people started living together, such a thing as laws came into existence. Quote: (Originally Posted by Justify) I don't personally know where Judas is. It depends on if Judas really believed Jesus was the Son of God and had faith that he could forgive all sins. Only God knows our hearts. Well it depends if you believe that it was Judas's mission to 'betray' God or not? Do you know that in the first gospel (Mark) Judas wasn't even personally mentioned as the 'traitor', it was just 'one of the twelve'. __________________ And if you want my address, it's number 1 at the end of the bar Ralphy's Cool Music Site www.aowekino.nl

04-12-2006, 08:00 PM	#73
Chase USER INFO » Status: Wound Up Posts: 1,160 Joined: Oct 2004 Currently: Offline	Re: Most in U.S. Favor Death if Saddam Is Convicted Quote: (Originally Posted by Ana4Stapp) Wow Chase!!!! You are a genious! Lets advocate death penalty in Latin America...lets allow this...it will certainly finish the crimes here as the same way it was stopped in the US states where it is in practice... It surprises me that YOU -who should know about the complexes causes of these crimes(poverty, social difference, bad conditions of life, all kind of governement's negligence regarding to people etc etc etc) simply ignore them...and think that killing the criminals... it will STOP ...It WONT!!!!!! Anyway I think I need to show you some PROOF --- http://www.antideathpenalty.org/reasons.html http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/01/17/usdom12437.htm Your naive nihilism is always astonishing. There are 265 million people in the U.S., of course there is going to be crime. Yet, when governments warn their people about the dangers of visiting certain countries... one has to look at the root of what's going on there. Out of the top ten countries with the highest murder rates... five of them are South American (Honduras, Colombia, El Salvador, Venezuela, and Bolivia). I'm pretty sure a great deal of those countries have also abolished the death penalty. I mean, it's nice to know that someone can go rape and kill a little girl and get to live a full life... especially after they denied the right to live to someone else. It is a deterrent. China has billions of people... and they practice the death penalty and even their murder rate isn't has high has some Latin American countries. So, if someone raped and killed your daughter... you be content with him just sitting in prison. You would find closure in that. Call me crazy... but if someone did that to my child... I would probably want to kill the guy myself.

04-12-2006, 08:15 PM	#75
Chase USER INFO » Status: Wound Up Posts: 1,160 Joined: Oct 2004 Currently: Offline	Re: Most in U.S. Favor Death if Saddam Is Convicted Quote: (Originally Posted by Ana4Stapp) I think you should try to make an effort in show some sense in your thought instead of calling me nihilist/terorist/nazist....etc...etc..etc... but anywasy...to your answer... If someone raped or killed my daughter/niece etc...of course killing this guy with my hands could pass though my head...ans its normal...I mean thsi is a passionate reaction. I mean a irational one...so I really understand it as one first and natural reaction to its odious crime. Its revenge. I cant blame you for thinking the same. But you know we cant mix Revenge with Justice. They are different things. One refers to passion..the other refers to reasoning. And for crimes rate: did you really read the links I put to you? You make it sound like justice is constant. It isn't. One form of justice does not transcend borders. Each culture has a different definition of what justice is. Putting someone in prison for life is also revenge... is it not? You're doing it to punish the person and to get back at them. It's revenge. For the record... some of the most technologically advanced have the death penalty. Not bad for "barbarians," eh?

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