More Conflict

[bilal]

Quote: (Originally Posted by metalchris25)

So they should have just sat by and let hezzbolah(sp) continue to fire rockets into Isreal like they have for a long time now? Just do nothing about them kidnapping thier soldiers?

Really, if Syria would stop hezbollah, this would be over. Period.

if Syira would....i will say...if Syria COULD.......its not like shutting down a factory or closing a shop........ alright.... heres what i think......consider this..... Israel ....bommbing over 2 weekss....hit only civiillian targets.....why not attach hizbollah.....why not...why hit schools.....answere is.....WHERE IS HIZBOLLAH...........in a society where there are people furious over ...let say any thing...... they feel agitated...and angry .....though them might never feel or talk to one another....there is a common bond between themm...i guess we can call it "HATE"....... over time...these people see somehtin happening b4 their eyes....and they question their governments .....why the Government aint doing anything about it.....let say....i question my GOVernement that why isnt it alteast condeming Israel for killing my brothers.....and keeping eme poor.....Government says this..." worry about feeding ur own parents.....go to ur university....get ur degree....and fight poverty "....... some of the more fanatics.....they from a group......they might have one spokes person...but all the agreived people around becomes its members.....alright ...may be not all.....some.....but its invisible.......they get a volunteer.....they do something.....no Goverment can do much about it......heck...where to do.......Israel and USA...with all its intellegence...dont know where to drop those bombs.......how can a poor Governement stop any such organisations.......... and kill all the present leaders....if they can....what......will it help...kill 10 now.....get 20 for free in future.........u cant oppress HATE.......just like mettalica said.....

" Just like a curse, just like a stray.
You feed it once and now it stays,
Now it stays.” Metallica – until it sleeps



So brother…I would say that the HATE here may take the name of Hizbollah or anything else……or may take the name of Government on part of opposition....there they may have the shield of democracy and self defence to flare out theri hate.....here the poor guys may search refuge under the umbrella of Hizbollah....…and as far as religion goes…..i earnestly don’t believe that this conflict is about religion ……atleast not anymore……..religion might have been the initial reason for the “feed of hate”……but not anymore…oh no…..now its just us and them…..and our hate………peace is not impossible…..but the recent actions of Israel…….or past 50 years or so of history..i don’t seen any quick solution very soon……its not like u shut down hizbollah ….or any other gummy bear factory….and the problem is over……

[eusebioCBR]

Generations of hatred will not be changed by a treaty and a cease fire will only delay the inevitable.
While religion may no longer be the focus of this conflict it's still the foundation on which both sides stand.
At this point in man kind's development I'm still convinced this is a world ruled by aggression. Therefore peace can only be defined with a clear victor.(I'm not being boastful).......logical?
If you happen to believe/have faith in GOD as I do. This is probably part of a bigger plan.
I wish both sides would walk away from this, but I just don't believe that will happen.

[RalphyS]

I do not deny Israel the right to defend itself and ofcourse I condemn the kidnappings of the Israeli soldiers, and I do think that organisations like Hezbollah and Hamas are legitimate targets, but bombing cities cannot be the answer either.

I heard on the news that Hezbollah wun like less than 10% of the votes in the last (democratic?) elections in Lebanon, therefore you cannot blame 100% of the lebanese people for the actions of Hezbollah, it's like declaring war on the US for the actions of the KKK.

Meanwhile it proves that democracy isn't the answer to everything, Hamas wun democratic elections in Palestine, Hezbollah is a political force in Lebanon. I believe we need to educate people before we 'spread democracy'.

[metalchris25]

I agree with a lot of that Ralphy, but Isreal is not at war with Lebanon. They have openly said this. They are trying to flush out Hezbollah. There is no other way to do this. It is not like they are deliberatly targeting packed schools and temples and stuff. I do agree that we should educate people before we spread democracy, but how do you educate those unwilling to learn?

[bilal]

Quote: (Originally Posted by eusebioCBR)

Generations of hatred will not be changed by a treaty and a cease fire will only delay the inevitable.
While religion may no longer be the focus of this conflict it's still the foundation on which both sides stand.
At this point in man kind's development I'm still convinced this is a world ruled by aggression. Therefore peace can only be defined with a clear victor.(I'm not being boastful).......logical?
If you happen to believe/have faith in GOD as I do. This is probably part of a bigger plan.
I wish both sides would walk away from this, but I just don't believe that will happen.

you said exactly what i wanted to say..... and these are my fears too...... and these fears seems to be the only hope.....

[bilal]

Quote: (Originally Posted by RalphyS)

I do not deny Israel the right to defend itself and ofcourse I condemn the kidnappings of the Israeli soldiers, and I do think that organisations like Hezbollah and Hamas are legitimate targets, but bombing cities cannot be the answer either.

I heard on the news that Hezbollah wun like less than 10% of the votes in the last (democratic?) elections in Lebanon, therefore you cannot blame 100% of the lebanese people for the actions of Hezbollah, it's like declaring war on the US for the actions of the KKK.

Meanwhile it proves that democracy isn't the answer to everything, Hamas wun democratic elections in Palestine, Hezbollah is a political force in Lebanon. I believe we need to educate people before we 'spread democracy'.

educate who?.....if the education is making people see what u want em to see....then i can see there is a nice class room goin on in Iraq right now......i love the methods the Teachers are using to teach democracy......... its really hard for west to understand just why terrorism blamed groups like Hammas and HIzbollah actualy manages to win.....just in the same way people of the Islamic world are confused how the west, with all democracy and human rights, can actually tollerated occupation and war......and crimes that are committed under the umbrella of democracy.......may be its time we also decide who needs to be educated and what? ......

[RalphyS]

Quote: (Originally Posted by bilal)

educate who?.....if the education is making people see what u want em to see....then i can see there is a nice class room goin on in Iraq right now......i love the methods the Teachers are using to teach democracy......... its really hard for west to understand just why terrorism blamed groups like Hammas and HIzbollah actualy manages to win.....just in the same way people of the Islamic world are confused how the west, with all democracy and human rights, can actually tollerated occupation and war......and crimes that are committed under the umbrella of democracy.......may be its time we also decide who needs to be educated and what? ......

Iraq is exactly the example of how not to spread democracy, forcing a feeble democracy on people, who do not how to handle it properly is not the way to go.

I do understand how groups like Hamas and Hezbollah manage to win, the feed on the hatred of people towards their 'enemies', but if you ever want a peaceful future, the only option is 'to love your enemy'. You have to let reason win over sentiment, when you vote. That's why, at least in my humble opinion, there is no place for religion in politics.

And indeed democracy is no guarantee for succes or even decent governing, but we have yet to find a better method of governing. A few quotes come to mind:

Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.
George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

Democracy substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few.
George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965), Hansard, November 11, 1947

[bilal]

Quote: (Originally Posted by RalphyS)

Iraq is exactly the example of how not to spread democracy, forcing a feeble democracy on people, who do not how to handle it properly is not the way to go.

I do understand how groups like Hamas and Hezbollah manage to win, the feed on the hatred of people towards their 'enemies', but if you ever want a peaceful future, the only option is 'to love your enemy'. You have to let reason win over sentiment, when you vote. That's why, at least in my humble opinion, there is no place for religion in politics.

yeh...ur right...... Iraq is even more complicated than Afghanistan...in Afghanistan..it became easy for US in the end cause since USA won theiri with the help of Nothren Alliance (shia group) and made all government witth em except for a suni group president as sugar coating over a bad pilll.......even the millitary head was the latter accused mass murduror of taliban....but they patched up for initial gov just fine......in Iraq...there is not that rebelism to work in the favour....so lets see...how it all turns out in the end.....end...if its ever there.......as far as sepration of religion and politics goes......you will have to see that out of all Islamic countires...non has a true democratic government.......even my country PAkistan.....so any muslim democratic governemnt not based on fundamentals of islam is very difficult in my oppinion.......or else....people will keep drifting towards groups like hammas or hizbollah or whatever........

[Ana4Stapp]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/...ain/index.html

Israel halts attacks for 48 hours

Airstrike killing dozens of civilians called a 'mistake'
QANA, Lebanon (CNN) -- Israel has agreed to suspend airstrikes on southern Lebanon for 48 hours to investigate a Sunday airstrike that killed more than 60 people in Qana, Lebanon, a U.S. State Department spokesman said.


60 civilians , 37 children

[Chase]

Hezbollah is embedding militants in residential areas and are wearing civilian clothing to blend in with local residents. This is disgusting and in my opinion, a tactic that they are using to further a negative public relations campaign against Israel.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sto...007220,00.html

[bilal]

but chase....i think Hizbollah is protecting Lebnon.....and if they need to wear civilian stuff......they will.....and most of the people is hizbolla are actually civilians...ai.e as per my knowledge......tell me....you must be seeing this as disgusting.....but i think its PATRIOTISM......cause Hizbollah is working for the will of the people of lebnon...where as Israel is the occupaying army......although its the main purpose of Israel to week down Hizbollah....by naming it terrorsit....throwing leaflets over the cities saying that Hizbollah is responsible for the people WE killed.........and i guess this pointing of civilian clothes isj ust one of the these tactics.........Israel is in no way welcomed by the people of lebnon......if it wasnt Hizbollah standing in the way....ISrael would have occupied lebnon once again........now u might say that its only due to this resistance that people are dying...then tell me.....which country in the world will let an oppresing army occupy them......its inhumane.......


i was seeing interview of a beruit citizen in news....and he was saying that for most of the civilians of beruit...it was a dream that Israel will send in its ground forces......so that theycan take theri revenge for the crimes of Israel against theri forefathers and their brothers in Palestine...........so that they could feel them in theri range and do what ever they can to get their hands on them......so what civillians you are talking about....might just be some doctors or busnessmen...but know turned fighters

its funny why do people see patriotism as acceptable ony for them selves and not for the others....if two countries are at war.....soldliers shooting and dying are driven by one emotion..... i,e PATRIOTISM.......but fail to see it for the other and reserve the right for it over themselves.......let say if some country invades my country, i am a working accountant....but i will make sure if i have to blow up my self to stop the envading army..i wont think twice....and i am sure CHase..you wont think twice to blow up your self to stop an occupying army , to save your country.....the country you love the most.........but one of the ugly sides of war is that both sides fail to see Patriotism in each ohter eyes....and reserves it only for them selves.....Israel on the other hand has used civilians as humun shield....i saw once on BBC....when Israel put some captured civiilans...locked em up in a container...and lifted the container with the help of giant crane...over above GAZA skyies.....and asked militants to surrender or the people will be killed....s.o what i think is that this is just one of the things to distract the matter from its main purpose.......

i hope you will respond to correct me if i am wrong

[eusebioCBR]

I'm having a difficult time accepting that Isreal is an aggressive nation. Sure they've beat the sh*t out of neihboring countries, but it seems Isreal is always provoked in some manner.
I may just be a dumb Ameican, but I think Hizbolla's hatred for Isreal outweighs their patriotism for Lebannon. They hate me(American) too.

[Ana4Stapp]

Quote: (Originally Posted by eusebioCBR)

I'm having a difficult time accepting that Isreal is an aggressive nation. Sure they've beat the sh*t out of neihboring countries, but it seems Isreal is always provoked in some manner.
I may just be a dumb Ameican, but I think Hizbolla's hatred for Isreal outweighs their patriotism for Lebannon. They hate me(American) too.

See Eusebio....I respect ur opinion and feelings for the israeli people and be sure I share the same feelings ...but Im sick of Israel governement being treated as the Good side('but it seems Isreal is always provoked in some manner" -se waht Im saying? )
while they are using extreme methods of violence - and 'promoting' the image of the muslim world as the Evil side....today I received an email showing horrible pics from the Israel attacks in Beirute.... Of course this is a war....so theres no pity and goodness involved in this...this is not waht im saying....but seeing Israel destroy Lebanon posing as the Eternal victim really pisses me off. And pisses me really off when we all know that to these leaders theres no more religion as the 'reason' (God gave to them)....but the MONEY involved in this kind of war...... cuz both sides (Hezbollah and Israel receive financial help to continue this ...) so theres no possibility to end this kind of conflict and consequently LOTS of INNOCENT people will die ....

[bilal]

Quote: (Originally Posted by eusebioCBR)

I'm having a difficult time accepting that Isreal is an aggressive nation. Sure they've beat the sh*t out of neihboring countries, but it seems Isreal is always provoked in some manner.
I may just be a dumb Ameican, but I think Hizbolla's hatred for Isreal outweighs their patriotism for Lebannon. They hate me(American) too.

exactly bro....u said again the right thing.....ask any of my poor countrymen and he will write you a long list why he SHOULD hate u.....hehe.........(just kidding ...but not entirely).....i am sure your not dumb at all......and i am here to learn a lot from you guys....not to say that i havent so fasr......and i.e by knowing your opinions....and i respect em all......

you see bro....i am sure you will know better what i am trying to say but do u think members of Hizbollah were planted in lebnon by some alien ship passing by....or they are some dumb fu**s who dont know that they need to lift the toiled seat before they let go..........why do they hate Israel...... are they born with some Iodine defincency which is caused by Israel dumping some chemical in theri water........and one more thing that i want to say , and that something i am saying with utmost honesty and beliefe.....given a chance to any Pakistani youth or normal man....to carry a gun and be their and Lebnon border right now....to fight Israel Army......no one will give it a secound thought .....or many have this dream as theri midnight fantacy.......WHY?.........is it any religious matter??.......or is it something else.....u pointed out HATE.......where did that came from....why??.......do u think watchin news here in my country is a easy thing.......if i dont drop tears every time i see BBC or any EURO news...i may as well go blind.......i know its my religious duty to do justice at all senario.......but its part of our life know.......i am tired and so is every other Muslim......few days back....we might be talking against Hizbollah....for distorting Islam image (and it being a shia group....which is not the mainstream Islamic group, for things like they are milllitants....and cant be given to run a country....)........but since they are fighting Israel for their independce....they are somewhat hero figuure in our eyes know.......i am not saying all thing Hizbollah did or are doing is good......but atleast!.........

i dont know why west wont let Muslims realise their Concept of UMMAH....i.e all muslims are brothers and sisters...and we cant live with peace untill each muslim is free and is not being occupied or tortured......why non-muslim countires fear this....i dont know......USA went to Iraq, the went to Afghanistan ....they are unhappy with IRAN's nuclear plans.....they sanction my country for not controlling millitant activites...know USA has given Israel the licence to kill cause they have named yet anohter dog as BAD...and now they are after to put a bullet in its head......USA has done every thing....but fail to do or let anyone do any CURE to the source of all the trouble around all these muslim countries........the real cancer that is fueling all the hatred in all these above mentioned countires.....and that is the issue of PALESTINE......always keeping UN aside....just its protection to ISRAEL and not doing any thing that is the source of all the issues...but playing along its aftermaths.....really bro...tell me.....can u image what the world would have been like if there was no ISRAEL /PALESTINE issue.....seriously...i might be wrong...can u imagine any difference........other issue that is also causing (according to my own understanding) is the presennce of USA army on oil reserves of SAUdia.....world knows....movies made....on how cheap this oil is being sucked by USA.....that being minor thing...its a disgrace for us as muslims that our holy land has presence of a foriegn army......this little things USA dont understands....is it realyly hard to accept that in a civilised world...occupaitons must be eneded.......everyone has a right to live and enjoy theri own cicle of freedom....and my circle of freedom is totally untouchable by you......but why do USA fails to see that....do u think i enjoy when Mr.Bush calls my country as AXIS of evil.......all this blasphamy....and this false associations ......dont care what we are going thrught...what our opinion is....what we care for...w.hat we feel for.......and then ask us ...why do we have so much hatered........

its time USA should learn to pull the plug......or let someone else do it.......if they want peace with the muslim world....they cant get it by killing everyone of us USA dont like.......they will get peace with us only if they start acting rationaly.....and i dont mean any politics or any other things....c;mon....am i talking nutts here......

as always bro...I TOTALLLY agree with you as to what u said.....ABSOLUTELY.....i hope u can make out some meaning out of my post relating it to what u said....and i dont feel necessary to recall all the crimes Israel has committed in the name of self defence........i am sure you know em better.....and that how much weightage i give to your earlier post regarding all ending in a duel...hehe......doesnt that makes more sence in all these hopless thing i speak

[eusebioCBR]

^I agree with both of you. I think your(Bilal) question concerning if Isreal had never been reminds me of where I truly am with all this. Isreal is there for a reason(plan). This might not be the point in time when prophecy goes full throttle, but only ONE knows for sure. Ana I noticed on your my space you said you're Catholic, I'm Christian and Bilal you're Muslim. We have been educated in our faiths and................., What I'm trying to say is this conflict will one day lead to something bigger and much worse(WW3). I don't know if this is that time and I really don't HATE either side of this because it's all part of GOD'S plan.

I can't be more honest than that.