Militants Surround EU Offices in Gaza Over 'Offensive' Cartoons

[Chase]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ana4Stapp)

Finally!!!!!! I knew you were intelligent, Chase!
But explain to me why you dont think that was a good idea to publish the cartoons...

Like I said earlier... just because it makes Americans and Europeans more of a target. However, the right a free press is essential to modern Western political thought... and that's a valuable right to have. The Danish government didn't publish these cartoons... it was a private newspaper which is completely independent of the government.

[Ana4Stapp]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chase)

Like I said earlier... just because it makes Americans and Europeans more of a target. However, the right a free press is essential to modern Western political thought... and that's a valuable right to have. The Danish government didn't publish these cartoons... it was a private newspaper which is completely independent of the government.

which had no preoccupation or social responsability about considering the obvious effects that this action could provokes... and yeah you are right the newspaper is independent but now the whole country is responding for it...

[RalphyS]

Quote: (Originally Posted by RalphyS)

I am not defending these cartoons, because I think that this will decrease anti-occidental sentiment. It is clear at this time that it will increase it, but I am not willing to sacrifice the values of the occident (I never heard of this word before and had to look it up actually) like freedom of speech and press to reduce this anti-occidental sentiment. If all the people in the US and Europe would convert to islam, this would also remove anti-occidental sentiment, but I am not willing to do that, just as I am not willing to apologize for the values we have in our western culture, which led to the publication of these cartoons.

What I would like to know from you, Ana, is what you think should be done about the cartoons? Do you think Europe and the US should formally apologize to islam nations, the islam belief or islam clerics? And if you do, do you think they should do that, because it was wrong to draw and publish these cartoons or should they apologize just because it will maybe calm them down? If we do apologize should we also apologize about Salman Rushdie's book "The Satanic Verses" in which, according to the muslim fundamentalists, the prophet and islam were insulted? In fact, should the press use another standard of scrutiny towards the excesses of the islam as it does towards other things, just because we might piss them off again (excuse my French).

If we give in now and we do apologize, where does it stop? I probably agree that there needs to be a certain level of responsibility and sensibility, but where do we draw the lines? The political leader of Iraq stated that Israel should be wiped off the map of the world, some cartoonists drew some over-the-top illustrations in a relatively small European (Danish) newspaper, yet the latter is excused of being insensitive, the comparison stinks. We let them get away with murder, so to speak, and we should pay heed to our every word and drawing about islam or Muhammad.

If they feel they have a right to be angry at the West for this, so be it. I feel we have much more reason to be angry, yet we try to do the civilized thing and talk about it.

Ana, why don't you answer my questions, once again in bold this time?

You keep posting reports about casualties to emphasize how wrong the publishing of the cartoons were, but that only proves to me how wrong the reaction of these radicals is, towards these cartoons. The cartoons itself caused no physical harm, the totally out-of -proportion reactions to it are to blame for the deaths and wounded.

Have you actually seen any of the cartoons, I looked them up on the net yesterday and they are totally innocent. All the fuzz is made about the one with the bomb-turban, this could perhaps have been a little over the top, but in no way it warrants the violent reactions of the protesters. Most protesters have never seen them, this all seems like some sort of mass hysteria, which is not unusual for islam as we witnessed it over the last years, maybe decades.

I read an interesting editorial in my local newspaper yesterday. No-one has any problems with a religion and the rules it sets for its followers, but when they try to make rules, in this case the disallowance to draw the prophet, also apply to non-believers this simply goes to far.

[Ana4Stapp]

Quote: (Originally Posted by RalphyS)

Ana, why don't you answer my questions, once again in bold this time?

You keep posting reports about casualties to emphasize how wrong the publishing of the cartoons were, but that only proves to me how wrong the reaction of these radicals is, towards these cartoons. The cartoons itself caused no physical harm, the totally out-of -proportion reactions to it are to blame for the deaths and wounded.

Have you actually seen any of the cartoons, I looked them up on the net yesterday and they are totally innocent. All the fuzz is made about the one with the bomb-turban, this could perhaps have been a little over the top, but in no way it warrants the violent reactions of the protesters. Most protesters have never seen them, this all seems like some sort of mass hysteria, which is not unusual for islam as we witnessed it over the last years, maybe decades.

I read an interesting editorial in my local newspaper yesterday. No-one has any problems with a religion and the rules it sets for its followers, but when they try to make rules, in this case the disallowance to draw the prophet, also apply to non-believers this simply goes to far.

Sorry, Ralphy -- In all honesty I dont know what happened...-- actually Im having a hard time at my work (big big problem) so I havent been able to get online ...but I remember of your questions and I think I just replied to Chase's posts first because we two were online at the same time.

But okay...Im here:

First --Yeah, you re definitely right: Im posting these reports to prove to you and Chase how wrong and irresponsible was the paper in deciding to publish those cartoons. Or do you think that the editors didnt have the faintest idea about the consequences of their action?
Again, I'm not pro censorship!!!! But drawning a cartoon which is too far from being innocent... And I saw those cartoons ...Do you really think that putting a 'bomb-turban' is an innocent attitude ? Give me a break, Ralphy! You know that unhappily we still live in two worlds, theres a clear gap (?) between West -and our values and East and their religious fanatism.

They see West as the Evil especially represented by US and Europe, and btw the americans troops in Iraq are the climax of the alleged persecution to Islam. They are saying that... You talked about hysterya --yes also there are certain groups trying to use the drawns --did you read that perhaps Al QAEDA and Osama Bin Laden are involved in it? Do you believe in this possibility?

Chase said that US and Europe forces are stronger than the fanatic Islam...but you know they have strength too: not militaire but religious. Religion is placed in the highest position obviously to control people...This is the only strenght they have but its still dangerous even to US (you can see it clearly in Bushs position in condening the cartoons) and Europe. They are fanatics so they have nothing to lose...they offer their own lives to God --they have nothing to lose!

You also asked me if I think itsthe right thing to Denamark France and all the others europeans countries that published the cartoons to ask for apologize to Islam?
Maybe, but honestly I dont believe in apologizes now that the damage is done.

[RalphyS]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ana4Stapp)

Sorry, Ralphy -- In all honesty I dont know what happened...-- actually Im having a hard time at my work (big big problem) so I havent been able to get online ...but I remember of your questions and I think I just reply to Chase's posts first because we two were online at the same time. .

I'm sorry to hear you have a problem at work and I hope you can work it out.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ana4Stapp)

First --Yeah, you re definitely right: Im posting these reports to prove to you and Chase how wrong and irresponsible was the paper in deciding to publish those cartoons. Or do you think that the editors didnt have the faintest idea about the consequences of their action?

I honestly do think that the 'editors' did not anticipate this kind of uproar, stemming from a few cartoons, ofcourse there was evidence in history that it might:

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutch ex-muslima and politician Ayaan Hirsi Ali)

In 1980, privately owned British broadcaster ITV aired a documentary about the stoning of a Saudi Arabian princess who had allegedly committed adultery. The government in Riyadh intervened and the British government issued an apology. We saw the same kowtowing response in 1987 when (Dutch comedian) Rudi Carrell derided (Iranian revolutionary leader) Ayatollah Khomeini in a comedy skit (that was aired on German television). In 2000, a play about the youngest wife of the Prophet Mohammed, titled "Aisha," was cancelled before it ever opened in Rotterdam. Then there was the van Gogh murder and now the cartoons. We are constantly apologizing, and we don't notice how much abuse we're taking. Meanwhile, the other side doesn't give an inch.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ana4Stapp)

Again, I'm not pro censorship!!!! But drawning a cartoon which is too far from being innocent... And I saw those cartoons ...Do you really think that putting a 'bomb-turban' is an innocent attitude ? Give me a break, Ralphy! You know that unhappily we still live in two worlds, theres a clear gap (?) between West -and our values and East and their religious fanatism.

They see West as the Evil especially represented by US and Europe, and btw the americans troops in Iraq are the climax of the alleged persecution to Islam. They are saying that... You talked about hysterya --yes also there are certain groups trying to use the drawns --did you read that perhaps Al QAEDA and Osama Bin Laden are involved in it? Do you believe in this possibility?

I've seen far worse cartoon of Dubya portrayed as Hitler and thought nothing of it, maybe agreeing partly in it. Hasn't islam or at least its radicals actions warranted a view in the general public of the west, that it's a religion very strongly attached to terrorism and bombings, and isn't this what comes out in cartoon like this.

Yes, I heard on Dutch radio today that the taliban received lots of volunteers to be suicide terrorists, because of the cartoons. And now, you want us to go and talk with these people about being rational and tell them we're sorry, they are willing to go and blow up themselves and as many innocent people as possible, there is no more rationality there. You cannot discuss something rationally with raving lunatics, which these people more and more prove to be and therefore I am not willing to accomodate them anymore.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ana4Stapp)

Chase said that US and Europe forces are stronger than the fanatic Islam...but you know they have strength too: not militaire but religious. Religion is placed in the highest position obviously to control people...This is the only strenght they have but its still dangerous even to US (you can see it clearly in Bushs position in condening the cartoons) and Europe. They are fanatics so they have nothing to lose...they offer their own lives to God --they have nothing to lose!

Quote: (Originally Posted by MA Khan, an ex-Muslim and co-editor of islam-watch.org website based in USA)

As this controversy is in a motion of continued intensification in the days to come, it is an opportune moment for the Westerners as well as the Muslims to reflect on if the Prophet of Islam deserves to command unqualified respect from the Westerners in the light of the theological doctrine he had set forward some 14 centuries ago. It should be considered that Muslims are expecting such unqualified respect for the prophet on the Islamic theological ground which prohibits depiction of their prophet in any form. It will hence be most appropriate to consider the desired respect for the prophet from the Westerners in the light of same Islamic theological doctrine, which comprises of the edicts of the Koran and deeds and traditions of the Prophet.

When delve into the Islamic theological doctrine that the Prophet Muhammad had preached and propagated, it becomes the most difficult and unreasonable proposition for the Westerners to show any respect for the Prophet. In the Islamic doctrine of the Prophet, the Westerners who comprise of mainly of the Jews, Christians and nontheists, are conisdered Kaffirs, which means cruel, deceptive and hypocrite infidels or unbelievers [Koran 2:39 ]. The Westerners are the worst beast in the eyes of Allah, the Islamic God [Koran 8:55]. The Gods of the Jews and Christians of the West are false who lead them to darkness [Koran 2:258 ]. Westerners are deceptive and liars [Koran 3:23] and wrongdoers [Koran 2:254 ]. The Western infidels must not be taken as friends and contacts must be avoided at all costs [Koran 3:28]. Muslims must not associate with their own kindred (son, parents and wives) if they do not submit to Allah [Koran 58:22] and such kindred are their enemies [Koran 64.14].

Whatever we do as Westerners, these people are supposed to hate us, it is written in their holy book!!! It is hard to respect the wishes of people, who look at us with so much hatred and therefore I see less and less reason to let them dictate us what to do, say, draw or publish.

I think these quotes are very apropriate in this situation.

The beauty of religious mania is that it has the power to explain everything. Once God (or Satan) is accepted as the first cause of everything which happens in the mortal world, nothing is left to chance... logic can be happily tossed out the window.
Stephen King

Religion is the idol of the mob; it adores everything it does not understand.
Frederick the Great

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
Voltaire (1694 - 1778)

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
Steven Weinberg (1933 - ), quoted in The New York Times, April 20, 1999

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ana4Stapp)

You also asked me if I think itsthe right thing to Denamark France and all the others europeans countries that published the cartoons to ask for apologize to Islam?
Maybe, but honestly I dont believe in apologizes now that the damage is done.

So what should be done about the situation in your opinion?

[Chase]

Bottom line... it's hard for Westerners to take these people seriously. Let's be realistic here. The majority of them claim that Islam is a "religion of peace." That term gets thrown around alot... especially after disgusting attacks like 9/11, London, and Madrid. For being a "religion of peace," they sure do resort to violence rather quickly. Every attack, whether it be a full scale terrorist attack... or the beheading of an innocent, is done for Allah. Look... people have done some pretty sacreligious things to Christian symbols, but I didn't go and resort to violent riots. Now... the Iranians, Syrians, and Al Qaeda are exploiting these people. These radical governments are giving these people Danish, French, Israeli, and American flags to burn. "Religion of peace," right?

I have yet to see is the Islamic world be sensative to Europe, America, India, Christianity, Judaism, or Hinduism. They're intolerant... violent, and racist. As far as I'm concerned, they've already declared war on the United States, Europe, Asia, and Australia. If this is World War III... then it's clear as day as to who the agressors are. I'm not advocating a war or anything... but all I'm saying is to open your eyes. The only people who have disgraced Islam... are Muslims.

[Ana4Stapp]

[quote=RalphyS]

Quote:

I'm sorry to hear you have a problem at work and I hope you can work it out.

Oh thanks Ralphy...but the problem is disappearing...and finally I can 'breath'...lol

Quote:

I honestly do think that the 'editors' did not anticipate this kind of uproar, stemming from a few cartoons, ofcourse there was evidence in history that it might:

You know...but I cant believe in no way in their innocence...

Quote:

I've seen far worse cartoon of Dubya portrayed as Hitler and thought nothing of it, maybe agreeing partly in it. Hasn't islam or at least its radicals actions warranted a view in the general public of the west, that it's a religion very strongly attached to terrorism and bombings, and isn't this what comes out in cartoon like this.

Look Im not saying I dont agree with the drawns, I can find them funny or intelligents, but me and you arent fanatics muslims...we dont live in 14 century (and yes now im biased in saying this...but this is true.). We live in west having western values of freedom and respect. We are more tolerant because we are not from a theocratic state which tries to keep us blind using religion.

Quote:

Yes, I heard on Dutch radio today that the taliban received lots of volunteers to be suicide terrorists, because of the cartoons. And now, you want us to go and talk with these people about being rational and tell them we're sorry, they are willing to go and blow up themselves and as many innocent people as possible, there is no more rationality there. You cannot discuss something rationally with raving lunatics, which these people more and more prove to be and therefore I am not willing to accomodate them anymore.

I clearly belive that Osama and Al Qaeda are taking advantage of this situation...their own enemies gave the reason to hate west more and more
I never said that we have to talk with these fanatics....but I dont see a reason to provoke this situation that become a global crisis.

Quote:

Whatever we do as Westerners, these people are supposed to hate us, it is written in their holy book!!! It is hard to respect the wishes of people, who look at us with so much hatred and therefore I see less and less reason to let them dictate us what to do, say, draw or publish.

Yes, yes...I said it too many times here and this is definitely my point : they hate us and will hate more now...because they were inflamad by the cartoons.

Quote:

I think these quotes are very apropriate in this situation.

The beauty of religious mania is that it has the power to explain everything. Once God (or Satan) is accepted as the first cause of everything which happens in the mortal world, nothing is left to chance... logic can be happily tossed out the window.
Stephen King

Religion is the idol of the mob; it adores everything it does not understand.
Frederick the Great

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
Voltaire (1694 - 1778)

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
Steven Weinberg (1933 - ), quoted in The New York Times, April 20, 1999

]

Very good quotes.

Quote:

So what should be done about the situation in your opinion

I really dont know ...but I know what shouldnt be done....

[Ana4Stapp]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chase)

Bottom line... it's hard for Westerners to take these people seriously. Let's be realistic here. The majority of them claim that Islam is a "religion of peace." That term gets thrown around alot... especially after disgusting attacks like 9/11, London, and Madrid. For being a "religion of peace," they sure do resort to violence rather quickly. Every attack, whether it be a full scale terrorist attack... or the beheading of an innocent, is done for Allah.

Hey this kind of absurd actions (burning flags, riots, trowing bombs etc...) are made by the fanatics (the extremists). You are being extremely biased here, Chase. You cant say that every muslim people are terrorists ...Would you like if I said that all americans are stupids because I dont like Bush foreign policy?

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chase)

Look... people have done some pretty sacreligious things to Christian symbols, but I didn't go and resort to violent riots. Now... the Iranians, Syrians, and Al Qaeda are exploiting these people.

Thanks God you are a rational guy... Seriously, you grow up in a country that put religion and politics in two differents sides and even though you are religious (not sure : are you? ...) you dont see religion as a part of your state.
Your education, like mine was based in principles as FREEDOM, RESPECT, LOVE TOLERANCE.
You learned at school the revolutionaires " LIBERTÉ, IGUALITÉ, FRATERNITÉ-- that by the way I LOVE to teach to my students because I DO believe in these words! In its meanings.

These are definitely the reasons why we wont see you, Chase, burning flags or throwing bombs in shoppings or airplanes.

And you are a man, can you imagine the situation for a woman? ...its even worse...we know horrible stories from women being abused, humillated by men ...and these woman cant do anything...I read a story about a man who killed his 3 daughters because someone said to him that one of them(who was commited)had an involvement with another guy...so he decides to do that just to avoid ´that all of them could the same thing.'..and you know? their mother didnt do anything...she only saw that awful scene..can you believe in the same situation here in west? And the most incredible was that the killer (father) said that he wasnt regretful because he was thinking about the honor of his family...what family? oh a last note: of course he didnt kill his boy...

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chase)

These radical governments are giving these people Danish, French, Israeli, and American flags to burn. "Religion of peace," right?

Ive told you, dear... I've told you...

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chase)

I have yet to see is the Islamic world be sensative to Europe, America, India, Christianity, Judaism, or Hinduism. They're intolerant... violent, and racist. As far as I'm concerned, they've already declared war on the United States, Europe, Asia, and Australia. If this is World War III... then it's clear as day as to who the agressors are. I'm not advocating a war or anything... but all I'm saying is to open your eyes. The only people who have disgraced Islam... are Muslims

.

I think that you are the one who needed to open your eyes to the damage provoked by the 'innocents cartoons' published in that newspaper in the name of 'freedom of speech'....

I honestly hope you arent advocating a war--because we clearly dont need it...but I can understand you and also I can agree with your point here; muslims are disgracing Islam...but only a few : the extremists, not the whole people...believe me

[Chase]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ana4Stapp)

Hey this kind of absurd actions (burning flags, riots, trowing bombs etc...) are made by the fanatics (the extremists). You are being extremely biased here, Chase. You cant say that every muslim people are terrorists ...Would you like if I said that all americans are stupids because I dont like Bush foreign policy?




Thanks God you are a rational guy... Seriously, you grow up in a country that put religion and politics in two differents sides and even though you are religious (not sure : are you? ...) you dont see religion as a part of your state.
Your education, like mine was based in principles as FREEDOM, RESPECT, LOVE TOLERANCE.
You learned at school the revolutionaires " LIBERTÉ, IGUALITÉ, FRATERNITÉ-- that by the way I LOVE to teach to my students because I DO believe in these words! In their meanings.

These are definitely the reasons why we wont see you, Chase, burning flags or throwing bombs in shoppings or airplanes.

And you are a man, can you imagine the situation for a woman? ...its even worse...we know horrible stories from women being abused, humillated by men ...and these woman cant do anything...I read a story about a man who killed his 3 daughters because someone said to him that one of them(who was commited)had an involvement with another guy...so he decides to do that just to avoid ´that all of them could the same thing.'..and you know? their mother didnt do anything...she only saw that awful scene..can you believe in the same situation here in west? And the most incredible was that the killer (father) said that he wasnt regretful because he was thinking about the honor of his family...what family? oh a last note: of course he didnt kill his boy...



Ive told you, dear... I've told you...



.

I think that you are the one who needed to open your eyes to the damage provoked by the 'innocents cartoons' published in that newspaper in the name of 'freedom of speech'....

I honestly hope you arent advocating a war--because we clearly dont need it...but I can understand you and also I can agree with your point here; muslims are disgracing Islam...but only a few : the extremists, not the whole people...believe me

The people in these streets aren't the radicals... they're the everyday, "normal" Muslims. Seeing as I have yet to hear of Muslim communities condemning these heinous acts... I have every right to put all Muslims into the category of being violent. I know they all aren't. But until they start protesting attacks attacks on school children, woman, humanitarians, and other innocent people... they will be sending this image to the rest of the world. It's not the "few" in the streets of the Middle East. It's a damn large percentage. They just don't seem to care. They are exporting violence and intolerance... and soon they're going to regret it. You're going to race riots in Europe, economic sanctions from every world power, and pissed off and provoked Europeans storming through the Middle East. It seems like they've taken European pacifism, liberalism, and isolationism for granted now. There are millions of Europeans who are anti-immigration when it has to deal with Middle Eastern and Northern Africans coming to Europe. You're going to even more restrictions against people from these regions because, quite frankly, Europe is getting tired of housing radial Islamic clerics and rioting Muslims youths. Remember what happened in December in Australia? Those type of racial backlashes are going to occur in Europe if Muslims keep this behavior up. They're only hurting themselves.

[Ana4Stapp]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chase)

The people in these streets aren't the radicals... they're the everyday, "normal" Muslims. Seeing as I have yet to hear of Muslim communities condemning these heinous acts... I have every right to put all Muslims into the category of being violent. I know they all aren't. But until they start protesting attacks attacks on school children, woman, humanitarians, and other innocent people... they will be sending this image to the rest of the world.

Okay but they were inflamed by the radicals...and I really dont think you or whosoever have the right 'to put all Muslims into the category of being violent'. This is an irresponsible position silmilar to theirs claiming that all you americans are evil ...
what I was trying to say is that you need to realize the most of muslims clearly dont have the understanding that they are crossing the line...its not the point ...they think they are acting in 'self-defense' of the odious west:
See it:
"But let George Bush and the arrogant world know that if we have to ... we will defend our prophet with our blood, not our voices.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chase)

It's not the "few" in the streets of the Middle East. It's a damn large percentage. They just don't seem to care. They are exporting violence and intolerance... and soon they're going to regret it. You're going to race riots in Europe, economic sanctions from every world power, and pissed off and provoked Europeans storming through the Middle East. It seems like they've taken European pacifism, liberalism, and isolationism for granted now. There are millions of Europeans who are anti-immigration when it has to deal with Middle Eastern and Northern Africans coming to Europe. You're going to even more restrictions against people from these regions because, quite frankly, Europe is getting tired of housing radial Islamic clerics and rioting Muslims youths. Remember what happened in December in Australia? Those type of racial backlashes are going to occur in Europe if Muslims keep this behavior up. They're only hurting themselves

When I used the 'few' I was trying to say that the radicals dont represent the majority of the muslims. But I can agree when you say that these are exporting violence and intolerance... yes , they are...but are you advocating more intolerance when you claims that Europe will put a lot of sanctions to these countries ?like 'restrictions against people from these regions '...is this prejudice ? racism? is this what you want to see in the future? I hope not.

[Ana4Stapp]

Well Im not exactly a fan of her..but Im quoting her opinion because its the same of mine:

Quote:

We all need to respect each other's religions, we need to respect freedom of the press. But ... (with) freedom of the press comes responsibility."
Condoleezza Rice (U.S. Secretary of State)

[RalphyS]

Well we seem to agree by now, that the intolerance and violence of islam fundamentalists/radicals, maybe fueled by some groups who want to (ab)use the situation for their political/terroristic goals, is the basic problem in this situation.

Yesterday I saw several items on tv about the issue.

First there was this UK-show, in which a moderate muslima (she was apparently second in the UK-version of a show called 'The Apprentice'), who very strongly accused all the protesters, who had resorted to violence, of kidnapping her religion. Sira Khan, as I think her name was, stated that anyone who resorted to violence, and especially these protesters, should be arrested immediately and severely punished (she was primarily speaking about protests in front of embassies in the UK itself). She had no problem at all with the cartoons, she said that it was a privilege to live in a western society with all the freedoms attached to that, and that people who rioted against these freedoms did not appreciate them. She also claimed that the protesters were a minority in the islam community in the UK, and if they couldn't deal with western freedom, that they should move to other places. In reaction to her comment of it being a minority, the presenter and his 2-person-panel, reacted with the results of a poll held under 500 UK-muslims earlier, in which large percentages considered these cartoons, just like 9/11, part of a jewish conspiracy. Khan reacted by stating that she didn't know people like that in her surroundings and that it was time that the moderate muslims took back their religion and spoke out against these radicals/fundamentalists. She was really very passionate and I hope to see more muslims like her on air, who not only defend their religion, but also attack the radical forces inside it.

Secondly there was a short item about 2 muslims in Danmark on a Dutch show, one was a Dane from Egyptian background, who worked as a stand-up comedian in acts, where he regularly made fun about his own religion. He brings a 'bomb' on stage, and its supposed to go off after his act. He said he could not understand how someone could not have a sense of humor about things like this. You need humor to evaluate anything, if you take anything too seriously, it will only make things worse.
The other muslim Dane was one of the imams, who send the cartoons to clerics in the middle east. He had the cartoons with him and he showed them to the interviewer on tv and discussed what especially appalling and insulting about them. Even the more moderate cartoons annoyed him a lot, a drawing of Mohammed and a donkey, which I wouldn't even call a cartoon, bur merely an illustration of a muslim 1300 years ago apparently showed the stupidity of Mohammed as viewed by Westerners to him. The drawing of Mohammed face with the Turkisch half moon was also very insulting, the star in the eye made Mohammed look like 'a pirate'. Apparently by sending the cartoons 'home' it was his intention to (quote) 'contain the situation', the interviewer (just like me) found this strange and asked if he couldn't have anticipated the reactions. He gave a very vague reaction and told about how the people who wanted to 'contain' the situation, where now being blamed for it. The strange thing was that when explaining the insult by the cartoons, he was smurking about them. The interviewer told him therefore that he seemed to be able to laugh about it. "It's was I am supposed to do, but I'm raging inside", the imam said. The last question was whether he would ever be able to just laugh about cartoons like this and go on with his life, he seemed to laugh off the question.

Thirdly I saw a report on the same Dutch program about the reaction in the USA on the cartoons item. With some clips from news reporters (CBS anchorman, I think) addressing the item, than Jon Stewart ridiculing it and finally Newt Gingrich defending the Danes on the O'Reilly factor. What followed was an assessment of the Dutch correspondent in New York. He stated that the USA was walking on tiptoes in this situation, apparently only one newspaper in Philadelphia had dared to publish any of the cartoons and Newt Gingrich's address was the only outspoken condemnation of the rioters. The US-media and politicians, according to the correspondent, were very carefull and even self-censoring about the issue out of fear that, their true opinion, that the Danes had every right to publish the cartoons, might cause even more anti-American violence and because there are at this time so many possible American targets in the middle east, it seems no-one is saying what they truly feel out of fear of being responsible for the deaths/casualties of American soldiers/reporters in the area.

On the other hand hand I heard this morning about the press conference that Dutch congreswoman and former muslima Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who was elected 'European of the year' by Reader's Digest and who has also been among the prominent top 100 of 'Time' magazine, yesterday gave in Berlin.
This woman, who wrote the script for the short movie 'Submission' in which she critiques the female unfriendliness (to put it mildly) of the koran and islam, has already had a friend/colleague, the director of 'Submission' Theo van Gogh murdered by a radical muslim and who is under constant surveillance/protection against fundamentalists, is brave enough to once again go out their and state her opinion, our rather strong conviction in spite of the threads, hatred and possible attempts on her life that it will cause.
She praised the European newspaper for having the courage to publish the cartoons, she did the same for the Danish premier Rasmussen, who in her opinion wasn't afraid to oppose the pressure from the muslim world to contain the freedom of press, and she wished that the Dutch premier Balkenende had the same courage. She also stated that she held this pressconference to defend the right to offend within the boundaries of the law. It is "necessary and important" to criticize islam and the teachings of Mohammed.

"Many muslims are peace-loving people, not all of them are fanatics. In my opinion they have every right to be true to their convictions, but within islam there is a radical islamic movement that rejects democratic freedom and aims to destroy it", as the Somalian born stated.

Hirsi Ali furthermore suggested that the European Union financialy compensated Danish companies who were stricken by the boycott from the middle east. "Freedom isn't cheap. It is worth it to pay a few million euro to defend the free word", according to Hirsi Ali, who also lashed out at newspapers, who were afraid to publish the cartoons.

[Ana4Stapp]

Quote: (Originally Posted by RalphyS)

Well we seem to agree by now, that the intolerance and violence of islam fundamentalists/radicals, maybe fueled by some groups who want to (ab)use the situation for their political/terroristic goals, is the basic problem in this situation.

Yesterday I saw several items on tv about the issue.

First there was this UK-show, in which a moderate muslima (she was apparently second in the UK-version of a show called 'The Apprentice'), who very strongly accused all the protesters, who had resorted to violence, of kidnapping her religion. Sira Khan, as I think her name was, stated that anyone who resorted to violence, and especially these protesters, should be arrested immediately and severely punished (she was primarily speaking about protests in front of embassies in the UK itself). She had no problem at all with the cartoons, she said that it was a privilege to live in a western society with all the freedoms attached to that, and that people who rioted against these freedoms did not appreciate them. She also claimed that the protesters were a minority in the islam community in the UK, and if they couldn't deal with western freedom, that they should move to other places. In reaction to her comment of it being a minority, the presenter and his 2-person-panel, reacted with the results of a poll held under 500 UK-muslims earlier, in which large percentages considered these cartoons, just like 9/11, part of a jewish conspiracy. Khan reacted by stating that she didn't know people like that in her surroundings and that it was time that the moderate muslims took back their religion and spoke out against these radicals/fundamentalists. She was really very passionate and I hope to see more muslims like her on air, who not only defend their religion, but also attack the radical forces inside it.

Secondly there was a short item about 2 muslims in Danmark on a Dutch show, one was a Dane from Egyptian background, who worked as a stand-up comedian in acts, where he regularly made fun about his own religion. He brings a 'bomb' on stage, and its supposed to go off after his act. He said he could not understand how someone could not have a sense of humor about things like this. You need humor to evaluate anything, if you take anything too seriously, it will only make things worse.
The other muslim Dane was one of the imams, who send the cartoons to clerics in the middle east. He had the cartoons with him and he showed them to the interviewer on tv and discussed what especially appalling and insulting about them. Even the more moderate cartoons annoyed him a lot, a drawing of Mohammed and a donkey, which I wouldn't even call a cartoon, bur merely an illustration of a muslim 1300 years ago apparently showed the stupidity of Mohammed as viewed by Westerners to him. The drawing of Mohammed face with the Turkisch half moon was also very insulting, the star in the eye made Mohammed look like 'a pirate'. Apparently by sending the cartoons 'home' it was his intention to (quote) 'contain the situation', the interviewer (just like me) found this strange and asked if he couldn't have anticipated the reactions. He gave a very vague reaction and told about how the people who wanted to 'contain' the situation, where now being blamed for it. The strange thing was that when explaining the insult by the cartoons, he was smurking about them. The interviewer told him therefore that he seemed to be able to laugh about it. "It's was I am supposed to do, but I'm raging inside", the imam said. The last question was whether he would ever be able to just laugh about cartoons like this and go on with his life, he seemed to laugh off the question.

Thirdly I saw a report on the same Dutch program about the reaction in the USA on the cartoons item. With some clips from news reporters (CBS anchorman, I think) addressing the item, than Jon Stewart ridiculing it and finally Newt Gingrich defending the Danes on the O'Reilly factor. What followed was an assessment of the Dutch correspondent in New York. He stated that the USA was walking on tiptoes in this situation, apparently only one newspaper in Philadelphia had dared to publish any of the cartoons and Newt Gingrich's address was the only outspoken condemnation of the rioters. The US-media and politicians, according to the correspondent, were very carefull and even self-censoring about the issue out of fear that, their true opinion, that the Danes had every right to publish the cartoons, might cause even more anti-American violence and because there are at this time so many possible American targets in the middle east, it seems no-one is saying what they truly feel out of fear of being responsible for the deaths/casualties of American soldiers/reporters in the area.

On the other hand hand I heard this morning about the press conference that Dutch congreswoman and former muslima Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who was elected 'European of the year' by Reader's Digest and who has also been among the prominent top 100 of 'Time' magazine, yesterday gave in Berlin.
This woman, who wrote the script for the short movie 'Submission' in which she critiques the female unfriendliness (to put it mildly) of the koran and islam, has already had a friend/colleague, the director of 'Submission' Theo van Gogh murdered by a radical muslim and who is under constant surveillance/protection against fundamentalists, is brave enough to once again go out their and state her opinion, our rather strong conviction in spite of the threads, hatred and possible attempts on her life that it will cause.
She praised the European newspaper for having the courage to publish the cartoons, she did the same for the Danish premier Rasmussen, who in her opinion wasn't afraid to oppose the pressure from the muslim world to contain the freedom of press, and she wished that the Dutch premier Balkenende had the same courage. She also stated that she held this pressconference to defend the right to offend within the boundaries of the law. It is "necessary and important" to criticize islam and the teachings of Mohammed.

"Many muslims are peace-loving people, not all of them are fanatics. In my opinion they have every right to be true to their convictions, but within islam there is a radical islamic movement that rejects democratic freedom and aims to destroy it", as the Somalian born stated.

Hirsi Ali furthermore suggested that the European Union financialy compensated Danish companies who were stricken by the boycott from the middle east. "Freedom isn't cheap. It is worth it to pay a few million euro to defend the free word", according to Hirsi Ali, who also lashed out at newspapers, who were afraid to publish the cartoons.

Not a feminist in here, but did you realize that muslims women seem to be more determined and willing to claim for changes?

[Ana4Stapp]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chase)

But until they start protesting attacks attacks on school children, woman, humanitarians, and other innocent people... they will be sending this image to the rest of the world.

Well ... I know that they live in America (and we have to consider it) but seems that some of them are trying to change this image...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11239054/

While we condemn the cartoons, we also condemn the violence connected to it.”

[Ana4Stapp]

Hey guys...No more answers or comments ??!! It seems that I am all alone here!!