'Pope protesters' hijack airliner

[Chase]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5403976.stm

Nothing says that the Pope was wrong about associating Islam with violence like hijacking an airliner.

[metalchris25]

Oh, the irony. They sure know how to make a point. Not that all islamic people are like these guys.

[uncertaindrumer]

This would crack me up if it were not so sad.

"we are not a violent people! to demonstrate our outrage at this assertion, we will blow up churches, hijack airplanes, kill innocents, and in all other ways act with violence!"

[bilal]

a plane was hijacked to make a statement.....a guy gave up the rest of his lifetime to make just a single statement...... he did wrong thing.... he disturbed a lot of lives that day, he will be punished when he meets God Almighty.... althought the article latter on confuses ast to wehter this man is a muslim or Christian.... may be it would be better if you guys read the whole page before commenting anything..... mr.chase, i guess you havent read the whole article.....


i dont see in the media why there isnt any statement to clarify that POPE dont represents all Christians....i mean if that is true, why isnt this misconception clarified....... may be no one feels it necessary to do...... i hate to imagine how Christians would react if a similar dis honouring statements were made against JEsus Christ.... but let me clarify that muslims Lvoe Jessus Christ in the same way they love our Holy Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H.) ....i guess if a time like that ever comes, it would be Muslims sacrificing theri lives for the name of Jesus Christ....... but i pray that this time may never come.....

[Chase]

Quote: (Originally Posted by bilal)

a plane was hijacked to make a statement.....a guy gave up the rest of his lifetime to make just a single statement...... he did wrong thing.... he disturbed a lot of lives that day, he will be punished when he meets God Almighty.... althought the article latter on confuses ast to wehter this man is a muslim or Christian.... may be it would be better if you guys read the whole page before commenting anything..... mr.chase, i guess you havent read the whole article.....


i dont see in the media why there isnt any statement to clarify that POPE dont represents all Christians....i mean if that is true, why isnt this misconception clarified....... may be no one feels it necessary to do...... i hate to imagine how Christians would react if a similar dis honouring statements were made against JEsus Christ.... but let me clarify that muslims Lvoe Jessus Christ in the same way they love our Holy Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H.) ....i guess if a time like that ever comes, it would be Muslims sacrificing theri lives for the name of Jesus Christ....... but i pray that this time may never come.....

I read the article and I implied that the guy is an idiot for protesting the Pope for what he said. It doesn't matter if he's Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, or Buddhist. Being offended by the Pope's words regarding Islam, and then acting them out in that fashion makes you an idiotic hypocrite.

And by the way... Muslim extremists say offensive things towards Christian constantly and I don't see Christians running around blowing things up and burning effagies... then following that with the great chant of "God is great!"

[bilal]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chase)

I read the article and I implied that the guy is an idiot for protesting the Pope for what he said. It doesn't matter if he's Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, or Buddhist.

then why did you write this in the begining of the thread?...here, let me quote you....

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chase)

Nothing says that the Pope was wrong about associating Islam with violence like hijacking an airliner.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chase)

Muslim extremists say offensive things towards Christian constantly and I don't see Christians running around blowing things up and burning effagies...

Chase, i have said it nuemerous times again and again, and i repeat once again that no matter what extremists from both relgions say to each other, we should not fall that low to start saying bad things about PRopeht Muhammad (P.B.U.H.) cause he has the same stauts in Islam as Jessus Christ have for Christians... Islamic extremists, who ever or wehre they are, have never quoted anything against Jesus Christ, as it is part of teh basic faith of Islam... and as i said earlier....muslims love Jesus Christ as much as they love Holy Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H.)...open up the Holy Qur'an, flip throurg some pages and u will surely come accross references to Jesus Christ, cause he is the most discussed personallity in holy Qur'an..... so dont compare POpe comments with any of the shitbag extremists........ i hope you get my simply point

[Chase]

Quote: (Originally Posted by bilal)

then why did you write this in the begining of the thread?...here, let me quote you....






Chase, i have said it nuemerous times again and again, and i repeat once again that no matter what extremists from both relgions say to each other, we should not fall that low to start saying bad things about PRopeht Muhammad (P.B.U.H.) cause he has the same stauts in Islam as Jessus Christ have for Christians... Islamic extremists, who ever or wehre they are, have never quoted anything against Jesus Christ, as it is part of teh basic faith of Islam... and as i said earlier....muslims love Jesus Christ as much as they love Holy Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H.)...open up the Holy Qur'an, flip throurg some pages and u will surely come accross references to Jesus Christ, cause he is the most discussed personallity in holy Qur'an..... so dont compare POpe comments with any of the shitbag extremists........ i hope you get my simply point

If I flip through the Koran... there's a possibility that I may also find this:

"5.51" : O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for
friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them
for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the
unjust people.

... and I said what I said because it makes someone a hypocrite to protest what the Pope said... and then protest in a violent fashion.

[bilal]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chase)

If I flip through the Koran... there's a possibility that I may also find this:

"5.51" : O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for
friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them
for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the
unjust people.

mr. chase..... playing with no knowledge is as dangerous as giving a gun in a childs hand........ i will interpret the above Verse of Holy Qur'an so that may be you will understand what its about... although i can see that all your efforts are directed against Islam and trying to portray it the way you want it too..... but i will try to educate you based on my own feeble knowledge..... so help me God.....


this verse is one of many veses that tells Muslims conduct with the belvers of these two faiths and all needs to be seen in totallity and in combination to judge what Islam tells its followers about theri acts with Christians and Jews..... there are verses, which tells us that in times of peace, Muslims should have peaceful relations with Christians but i am sure those are not of itnerest to mr.chase......i will appeal to all who are reading this to read all my words so that maybe you can get the picture i want to show you people....

Unlike Bible, Holy Qur'an was revealed to humanity not in one go, but the verses were narated to Holy Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H.) by Gabriel gradully as the huge task of unfolding the relgion to the humanity was to be carried out ........ it all happened in 23 years...... Allah Almighty kept guiding the Holy Prophet (P.B.U.H.) by telling and guiding him all the way along..... or this huge change in the world could'nt have been possible in 100 life times....it happened in only 23 years....

when the Allah Almighty asked Holy Prophet (P.B.U.H.) to start narrating to people the message of Creator, there were, in broad terms, following people; Beleivers of old books and those who beleived in idols..... Holy Prophet (P.B.U.H.) at times prayed and treated those with old books with a rather tender treatment then idol worshipers, althought according to Islamic belives, those books are not in original form, and have been changed and rearraged till present day to carry onn theri own preffered ways, this tenderness of Holy Prophet (P.B.U.H.) was infact not in favour of Old book Worshipers like Jews and Christians as in that way they wont be getting the message of Allah Almighty at all....... unlike this , Holy Qur'an is preserved in its every bit of detail, not in text form but in the hearts of millions of muslims who have memorised it completely.......

this Verse was narrated to Holy Prophet (P.B.U.H.) at the end of very first war that Muslims had with the opposing relgions...in which after the victory, many people of the opposing relgions convetted to Islam but many of them started mischeiveous acts agaisnt Islam very soon........

right from the begining, the followers of Chirstianity and Jews, as their faith was challenged, they became hostile to the people converting to Islam, and my freind ,the Chirstianity and Jewsih of those times are not like the present times, you will agree, that lot has changed since then, .......... Islam was to be spread and at many occasions, conspiracies were being netted against Islam by the followers of other faith, to defend their faith.... so in this verse, Allah Almighty has asked Muslims not to make freind with these relgions cause all they want is for Muslims to let go of theri religion...... it was an instruction to the muslims of old times so that the relgion should spread as it is desired ....


one of the brilliant proof, of the wonders and Truthfulness of Holy Quran can be seen from its every verse...... and this particular verse shines no less...... i just appeal any one who is reading me at the moment to try to be as independend and prudent as it can be...... and then give a look to the world at the moment.... try to cover all the circumstances of religions around the globe and then read this Verse of Holy Quran again.... you will see that no matter what the differences may be in relgious belives between Jews and Christianity, they will always be as one when they have to stand against Islam..... see the evidence of it from the Israel Palestine conflict..... and the unprecedented support of USA to Israel, ....... you will see both these faith as one when it stands against Islam...... this is the natural tendency that is there since the time this VErse was first narrated and will remain .......and this makes this Verse of Holy Quran timeless and wonderfully true..............

this Holy Vesrse , in no way, is giving any ideal of violance, as Mr Chase tried to portray it, and i will request Mr.chase to act more responsible next time...... cause i myself aint a good religious person, and my not be able to help the readers from getting mis-informattion..... as this wild frenzy of mis quotations has brought enough hatred and mis guidance to the world already...

[Ana4Stapp]

Well...Chase can say anything now...but he and others posted here in this thread assuming that the idiot guy WAS A MUSLIM...its obvious ..so the honest thing to do was to at least recognize it...

[Chase]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ana4Stapp)

Well...Chase can say anything now...but he and others posted here in this thread assuming that the idiot guy WAS A MUSLIM...its obvious ..so the honest thing to do was to at least recognize it...

I know how to read and if the story says that the guy was a Christian convert... then that's what he was. I never said otherwise.

[uncertaindrumer]

First, Christians DON'T go blowing things up for the most part. We are attacked mercilessly all the time, without giving violent reactions. In the world we live in, attacking Christianity is fine--it happens constantly.

You can equivocate the words of your own book all you want, but it is a historical fact that Islam has been and still is aggressive and violent, period. They were created by Mohammed, and ever since, they have been attacking other people. Somehow, in the twisted up world we live in, people try to deny this (the ultimate irony is that Christians are persecuted for the Crusades, when these were DEFENSIVE wars against a belligerent enemy, Islam). Islam concquered the Middle East, and attempted to conquere Europe, eventually being beaten out by valiant Spanish resistance after 700 years of war.

You will never convince me these are the acts of a peaceful people. There are certainly exceptions to the rule, but as a whole, Islam is usually extremely agressive.

By the same token, there are exceptions to Christianity's basic notion of peace. But most of the wars Christian nations have been involved in were political, not religious. Those wars which were religious were almost always entirely defensive. And those that weren't either had justification or are to be apologized for. But these are the exception and not the rule.

Quote:

they will always be as one when they have to stand against Islam

This just isn't true. Though currently, the SECULAR powers of the U.S. and other countries are allied with Jewish states, this not only has nothing to do with Christianity, but it is only current.

In distant times, Jews were almost always more friendly to Muslims than Christians. Indeed, a large part of the impetus behind the Spanish inquisition was due to the fact that Jews, posing as Christians, would infiltrate and subvert Spain's attempts to defeat the Moors.

The idea that Jews have always sided with Christianity against Islam is laughable at best.

Quote:

I know how to read and if the story says that the guy was a Christian convert... then that's what he was. I never said otherwise.

Immaterial. Regardless of this one incident, there have been dozens of angry, violent, destructive protests against the Pope's now seemingly proven words.

I am not attempting to offend those who are not violent yet hold Islam to be their religion. I'd much rather see an Islamic man of faith than an agnostic or atheist. Still, the fact remains that there are inescapable amounts of violence continually perpetrated by Muslims, and it was not specific believers to whom the Pope was referring, but ratehr this general attitude.

[bilal]

thanks for your reply Uncertaindrummer.......i appreciate that.....

Quote: (Originally Posted by uncertaindrumer)

First, Christians DON'T go blowing things up for the most part. We are attacked mercilessly all the time, without giving violent reactions. In the world we live in, attacking Christianity is fine--it happens constantly.

in my post, i have said one thing that you didnt addressed was that i belive that Christianity is not the same as it was some 100 years ago..... i know that Christianity has settled down to be a very peacefull relgion... and i respect that with honest feelings....... you are saying here that Christians are attacked and thats OK.... how would you justify that?... .i mean, as far as i am seeing, hopefully not being biased here, killing Muslims is like killing boars and pigs..... i mean, 20,000+ were recently masaccred in lebnon by Israeli army..... not to foget that countless are obducted by Isreal every month too..... do you honestly believe that even one of them massacred is gona get justice..... or any one even gona condem that.... you might say Hizbollah is responsible....... than my friend... its always the same accusation with all freedom movements ever... when Irisih people were slaughtered by the kings army in Ireland. the IRA was blammed for playing militancy against British rule and hence inviting the kings army to commit such acts.... but to me, Militancy comes only when people are oppresed on theri own lands.... to me Muslim blood spilling in Palestine and iraq at the moment will nevver get justice... .and please do justify your claim of killing of Christinas...... just for enhancing my knowlodge and perspective..... if you are referring to the killings by Alqaeda, then i can say that 90% people killed by such bogus organisations are muslim casualties.......recently MR.Chase posted an statistics of kilings by Alqaeda... .and it clearly shows that the terror that you Government speaks of to win your concent for all the kilings it do, saying it necessary for libration and all this shit..... i mean, your army end up killing 100 times more muslim people than Shtty Alqeda has every done .....

Quote: (Originally Posted by uncertaindrumer)

You can equivocate the words of your own book all you want, but it is a historical fact that Islam has been and still is aggressive and violent, period. They were created by Mohammed, and ever since, they have been attacking other people. Somehow, in the twisted up world we live in, people try to deny this (the ultimate irony is that Christians are persecuted for the Crusades, when these were DEFENSIVE wars against a belligerent enemy, Islam). Islam concquered the Middle East, and attempted to conquere Europe, eventually being beaten out by valiant Spanish resistance after 700 years of war.

here Uncertain dude, you are just reserving the right of DEFENCE to your own self and denying the same privaldge to Islam..... in my earlier post, i tried to be as much considerate and i said that Christinaity followers only fought to defend theri own belives.... i wish you could have appreciated that and i if you have read my earlier post correctly, you wouldnt have posted this all... .but this is very very biased of you to just reserve the right to feelings like Patriotism, defence and all just for your own sake and not to a a member of another religion.......

you see Islam as Violent..... i ask you and leave you with just one question.... and one question only.... you mentioned Crusades.... but you havent mentioned the massacre of Muslims behind the single word "Crusade"...i ask you... give me one incident from history of Islam where a massacre of civilians was done in the name of religion.... Uncertain Bro... you mentioned Spain a lot and 700 years of fight of Christains and jews.... iask you one question Unncertain bro... and that is if Muslims occupied 700 years over spain and if Islam was hostile to Christianity or Jewism....why were all the Churches and Jews places were still intact and functioning during these 700 years of Muslim rule...... i would appreciate your answeres for these facts that i ve spoken here for my own education and enhancedment of perspective......


i should again mention my views here about Christinanity that i respect the way Christianity is being practiced at the moment..... and i respect the peace and tranquility i see behind the mention of the term.... but you see, Muslims are fighting theri own fight to oppression and Islam has been in peace for a lot of years but for in places where muslims are subjected to mis treatment and occupations by invading armies........ history dates back a lot more than just past 20 years...... i will hate to cite here from history, the times of early Chirstianity, and the slaughter of Jews by the church....and the biased and unjustified crimes in the name of Christianity commited against women and members of other relgion......... the history of early churches of France .........

Quote: (Originally Posted by uncertaindrumer)

You will never convince me these are the acts of a peaceful people. There are certainly exceptions to the rule, but as a whole, Islam is usually extremely agressive.

you know something here bro, i dont want you to view Islam as anything less than agressive.... it will never be.... every succesful mechanisms, including those of nature has theri own defencsive sides too..... its a pitty that many powers in the world has done its best to distort the view of Islam for the sake of its own benefits..... a lot of therapy has been done and results are being showed now in the biased and wrong oppions of people, from freedom fighters to terrorsts, and then from terrorsits to ISLAMIC terrorist.... its all a transition that media has feeded in you.....the threat of your security is blamed on the very existance of Islam ....where as the crimes agains Islam till todate are hidden and obsucured by labbleing JIHAD as a war againt INFIDLEs... this bullshit has surely been sticking on lots of walls lately....

Quote: (Originally Posted by uncertaindrumer)

By the same token, there are exceptions to Christianity's basic notion of peace. But most of the wars Christian nations have been involved in were political, not religious. Those wars which were religious were almost always entirely defensive. And those that weren't either had justification or are to be apologized for. But these are the exception and not the rule.

so were the wars of Islam... Islamic WArs were fought in battle grounds and not in cities.......and if you are of the opinon that Islam spread due to sword... then myfreind if i show you a sword, will you accept Islam with all your due belif and purity of heart.... you see, human beings dont act this way... there is a lot more behind the picture....you can see it if only you try, or that if you dare.......

Quote: (Originally Posted by uncertaindrumer)

This just isn't true. Though currently, the SECULAR powers of the U.S. and other countries are allied with Jewish states, this not only has nothing to do with Christianity, but it is only current.

Its not current my freind....... if you fail to see the biased favours that are being granted to Israel by USA then may be this all discussion with you is useless.... please do consider this that no matter what religoion you have .... if you are being occupied and are being disgraced for being of other religion, then will you accept the opppresion or will you fight against it.....i ask you one more question.... why is it that all the dis-rest among all the muslim world , which is due to one problem and thats the palestinian issue, is being addressed with bringing war to that part of muslim world and NOT by solving the palestinian issue.. .when the solution to the palestinian issue is the most obvious... OCCUPATION MUST GO!.... but that is'nt done... the mother of all pain is kept alive and fresh... while if any other body part of the muslim nation shows any sign of revolt, then it is dealt with power and the uprising is termed as terrorism... and all this is being done by the unjustified biased command of USA... please uncertaindrummer dude, i plead you to provide me with some RATIONAL answere for this ...... i really need to know why......

Quote: (Originally Posted by uncertaindrumer)

Immaterial. Regardless of this one incident, there have been dozens of angry, violent, destructive protests against the Pope's now seemingly proven words. .

man, if someone diss Jesus Christ like that, i would'nt be surpirsed if Crusie missiles arent being landing on that land.....dont be biased here again...... we have the same right to protect our sainity and freedom as much as you do....... its time you try to seek peaceuful coexistance and not violent accusations...... NOT ALL TERRORISM NEEDS BULLETS, AT TIMES WORDS ARE MORE DANGUROUS THAN BULLET.......AND END UP KILLING MORE ..... THIS IS ALSO A FORM OF TERRROISM COMMITED BY WORDS


uncertain bro..i again thank you for your earlier reply.... but i am lossing more and more hope of getting any unbiased and sympathetic discussion here...... i know i could have replied better... but i being here for a while, i know whats coming from an average mind...i hope you will bring something new.....my only regret from the west is its conquest for power and control over muslim world.....

[RalphyS]

Quote: (Originally Posted by uncertaindrumer)

I'd much rather see an Islamic man of faith than an agnostic or atheist.

This is what me as an atheist struck in your speech. You state that islam is a religion of violence throughout the centuries and that muslims are nowadays those who are doing the bombing etcetera, yet you feel the need to mention this statement above. I haven't seen bombings by 'fundamental' atheists yet, it is hard to kill in the name of 'no god', but somehow you see atheism as more of a thread than another 'false' religion. Perhaps deep down the possibility that we might be right scares you more than the fear of being killed by a bomb

[uncertaindrumer]

Quote: (Originally Posted by RalphyS)

This is what me as an atheist struck in your speech. You state that islam is a religion of violence throughout the centuries and that muslims are nowadays those who are doing the bombing etcetera, yet you feel the need to mention this statement above. I haven't seen bombings by 'fundamental' atheists yet, it is hard to kill in the name of 'no god', but somehow you see atheism as more of a thread than another 'false' religion. Perhaps deep down the possibility that we might be right scares you more than the fear of being killed by a bomb

You are reading too much into it. I'd rather a man of faith than a man without because you can't reason with an atheist. When you start with a common belief--God--you can then argue based on morals. I can tell a muslim he is wrong, and he might not agree with me, but he will understand what I mean.

If you tell an atheist something he does is wrong, it won't make any sense to him, because there *isn't* any right or wrong for an atheist.

As for your cute little statement about me being afraid you are right, that brings up an interesting point... I'm *not* afraid you are right. If you are--for argument's sake--absolutely nothing bad will happen to me because of this. I will die a meaningless death after living a meaningless life, just like the rest of you. But if *I'm* right... well you are screwed then, aren't you?

[uncertaindrumer]

Quote:

man, if someone diss Jesus Christ like that, i would'nt be surpirsed if Crusie missiles arent being landing on that land.....dont be biased here again...... we have the same right to protect our sainity and freedom as much as you do....... its time you try to seek peaceuful coexistance and not violent accusations......

I could not possibly respond to all of your post but this stuck out. Do you have any clue how often Jesus is insulted and ridiculed? How often He is made fun of on TV, in comics, movies, etc.? ALL THE TIME. And most of it goes without notice because Christians, for the most part, DO NOT RESPOND the way Muslims do.

It is socially acceptable to mock Jesus, it happens constantly. But we don't go blow people up because of it. Muslims, on the other hand...

The only other thing I would note is that when you mentioned the Crusades, you menioned certain slaughters. War is Hell. No way around that. No matter what war you are fighting, there will be excesses, atrocities, etc. These should be condemned. But imperfect men doing imperfect thigns does not make the principle wrong, and the principle was that Islam had conquered the Hold Land, and the Christians were trying to get it back.

You say not to deny you the right to defend yourselves. Well, tell me when I have done that? Islam was not "defending" itself by overrunning the Middle East, or attempting to conquer Spain, or moving into France. Those were purely aggressive wars. And if you want to claim that Muslims did not persecute Christians, then you are nuts. They absolutely did, and still do.