Swedish church about gayrights

[uncertaindrumer]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ana4Stapp)

You are changing my words...didnt say this kind of thing...

Yes, you did.

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but of course if YOU believe in God (and Im sure you do this)

Obviously.

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you think about HIM ahving LOVE, GOODNESS, TOLERANCE, UNDERSTANDING....

Says who? You are putting words in my mouth. Things are good BECAUSE they come from God. God does not have to fit any pre-existing notions of good and evil because there ARE none. Without God there IS NO good and evil. Good=thigns from God, evil=absence of God. If there is no God we are all just chemical reactions.

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anyway seems you are acting like Church right now...I mean, prefering to lose followers. instead of captivating them...

I would rather there be ten true followers of Christ than a billion fake ones. You can't compromise beliefs to get followers because they aren't followers if you do.

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C'mon uncertain! You being religious know that those books only avoid these cahllenges...even though the problem is still there...

Avoid these challenges? So in the same thread we have people telling us that the Bible is outdated and wrong, and should be done away with (because it actually--*gasp*--speaks out agaisnt certain things) and others telling us that the Bible doesn't deal with anything?

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Oh my God! Again ? Anyway I dont think being ironic is the best here....

Not unless it helps you realize how untenable your position is. Not only are condoms immoral, they are INEFFECTIVE.

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Well I didnt say you are the kind of person who dont worry about poverty or hunger...but you know wahts ironic ? you said homosexuality only hurts homosexual people...so why do you mind about this issue...its like live and let live, u know?

I said *for the most part*, notice I specifically added that. But there are certainly problems that arise from homosexuality which are not limited to those performing the act.

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Yes...actually we are very far from perfection...and its definitely good.

Not, it is not. If we can attempt to be perfect we should. Not to be nitpicky or anything but if we admit that being imperfect is acceptable, than all standards of EVERYTHING fall down. After all, we are all imperfect and we shouldn't be ashamed of that, right? But we should. We should always strive for perfection, even while knowing we will almost definitely fail.

[uncertaindrumer]

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But if I should believe in God, I have the right to believe whatever I want about him, right?

Absolutely not. Perhaps the physical capability. But not the right.

[RoffeDH]

Yes you do have the right to do it... But it's probobly wrong... Who say you've got the answer!? How can I belive in somebody I don't agree on... Can I throw my life in their arms... NO! I need to trust them! There for not being able to accept god is okey!

[Ana4Stapp]

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Yes, you did.

Really? Im not sure...but anyway, sorry, it was not my intention...

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Obviously.

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Says who? You are putting words in my mouth. Things are good BECAUSE they come from God. God does not have to fit any pre-existing notions of good and evil because there ARE none. Without God there IS NO good and evil. Good=thigns from God, evil=absence of God. If there is no God we are all just chemical reactions.

hum...maybe...you are right

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I would rather there be ten true followers of Christ than a billion fake ones. You can't compromise beliefs to get followers because they aren't followers if you do

.

So ... are you saying that I AM a fake one?

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Avoid these challenges? So in the same thread we have people telling us that the Bible is outdated and wrong, and should be done away with (because it actually--*gasp*--speaks out agaisnt certain things) and others telling us that the Bible doesn't deal with anything?

I didnt say BIble is outdated and of course I CANT say it since I AM a History teacher and I dont recall sayinng its wrong because I do respect all religions, but try to understand that every religions have a very important role on our society and I think they only need to be really nvolved with these problems we have right now, helping people, giving orientation(especially to the young ) to go through this insteady of only saying "this is a sin or this is wrong". It wont help.

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Not unless it helps you realize how untenable your position is. Not only are condoms immoral, they are INEFFECTIVE.

This is your point of view...and you know mine

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I said *for the most part*, notice I specifically added that. But there are certainly problems that arise from homosexuality which are not limited to those performing the act.

what are they? diseases? besides morals?

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Not, it is not. If we can attempt to be perfect we should. Not to be nitpicky or anything but if we admit that being imperfect is acceptable, than all standards of EVERYTHING fall down. After all, we are all imperfect and we shouldn't be ashamed of that, right? But we should. We should always strive for perfection, even while knowing we will almost definitely fail.

Ah Stephen, I cant believe you didnt get it... anyaway Ill try explain it again: WE ARE IMPERFECT!!!!! Iam not accepting it like a GOOD thing...but Im admiting it like TRUE! And while we are living we are trying to grow up, not only phisically but emotionally and also spiritually. This is the meaning of the LIFE (IMO)!
Also can you imagine how boring could be if we are PERFECT since the day of our birth? A perfect life ! Would you like it? I guess not.

Hope this time you get my point.

[Chase]

You want to talk about outdated religions? You're battle should be with Islam then.

[RoffeDH]

Why with Islam Chase? You just probobly have their belife mixed up!

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hum...maybe...you are right

.

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So ... are you saying that I AM a fake one?

No, I wasn't talking about you at all. But one can't water down beliefs to get someone to "believe" them. Cuz then they aren't converting, YOU are, by virtue of changing what they need to believe.

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I didnt say BIble is outdated and of course I CANT say it since I AM a History teacher and I dont recall sayinng its wrong because I do respect all religions, but try to understand that every religions have a very important role on our society and I think they only need to be really nvolved with these problems we have right now, helping people, giving orientation(especially to the young ) to go through this insteady of only saying "this is a sin or this is wrong". It wont help.

If people are brought up RIGHT it will. There ARE moral absolutes in this world, despite what everyone wants to think.

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This is your point of view...and you know mine

It isn't a point of view. It's a fact that condoms are NOT working.

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what are they? diseases? besides morals?

They can harm the adopted children, for a specific example. Beyond that any society which is willnig to legalize somethign immoral hurts itself, period. Sometiems that is necessary. Government, it could be argued, is a necessary evil, but sometiems we have to deal with necessary evils. Making homosexual marriages legal is not at all necessary.

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Ah Stephen, I cant believe you didnt get it... anyaway Ill try explain it again: WE ARE IMPERFECT!!!!! Iam not accepting it like a GOOD thing...but Im admiting it like TRUE! And while we are living we are trying to grow up, not only phisically but emotionally and also spiritually. This is the meaning of the LIFE (IMO)!

This makes sense. I understand this. This is correct. Then you say...

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Also can you imagine how boring could be if we are PERFECT since the day of our birth? A perfect life ! Would you like it? I guess not.

Ludicrous. If I could be perfect and have everyone else be perfect I would not even THINK about turning it down.

[uncertaindrumer]

Quote: (Originally Posted by RoffeDH)

Yes you do have the right to do it...

No. You have the capabiltiy much as you have the capability to murder your neighbor. You do not have the RIGHT to murder your neighbor.

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But it's probobly wrong... Who say you've got the answer!?

Well that is a heck of a debate isn't it.

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How can I belive in somebody I don't agree on...

Agree? How can you disagree with GOD?

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Can I throw my life in their arms... NO! I need to trust them!

Then the fault is yours for not being capable of that trust.

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Therefor not being able to accept god is okey!

Not if He exists.

[Ana4Stapp]

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eek:

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It isn't a point of view. It's a fact that condoms are NOT working.

Cant see it as a fact...

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They can harm the adopted children, for a specific example. Beyond that any society which is willnig to legalize somethign immoral hurts itself, period. Sometiems that is necessary. Government, it could be argued, is a necessary evil, but sometiems we have to deal with necessary evils. Making homosexual marriages legal is not at all necessary

.

So are you against gays adopting children? Arent they good enough people to do this? Or you prefer lkeeping those kids at orphanage. or worse, on streets?

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This makes sense. I understand this. This is correct. Then you say...

Thanks for your comprehension...

[uncertaindrumer]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ana4Stapp)

I couldn't believe you admitted I was right.

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Cant see it as a fact...

Show me ONE country where AIDS has declined over the last fifty years...



You always look at the smaller picture Ana. with both homosexuality and AIDS, you would have us renounce all that is moral to make a couple people happy, and instead doom a culture to a societal structure in which evils such as AIDS poverty and hunger continue to thrive and grow, thus worsening all the very problems you attempted to correct short-sightedly in the first place.

[RMadd]

Quote: (Originally Posted by The Lithium)

But if I should believe in God, I have the right to believe whatever I want about him, right?

Not really. We believe God made Man, so he's pretty much unchanging, and it doesn't matter what wide variety of beliefs people have of Him, as there's only one true one. Granted, you believe Man made God, so that pretty much hinders any possible belief in the absolute.

[Rocketqueen]

well it should have increaed AIDS is a plauge like a bowl of wrath so is cancer and myself am surprised that another new killing plauge has not hit us yet im sure it has but we dont know about it and when and if it does im sure everybody will still be blaming gay people for it and babys has died with the disease and been born with the infected With HIV its not just a disease nor a plauge for evil gay people has the world soon found out when it kept spreading let me ramble on AIDS brought many together and opend their minds to the fact that hey this could happen to me and for many on the high horses thought that it was just for gays soon learned other wise for examples By God So Yes it has mabey decreased just mabey after many learned what it was all about

[Rocketqueen]

Quote: (Originally Posted by RMadd)

Not really. We believe God made Man, so he's pretty much unchanging, and it doesn't matter what wide variety of beliefs people have of Him, as there's only one true one. Granted, you believe Man made God, so that pretty much hinders any possible belief in the absolute.

I disagree he never said that man made God he said i should be able to believe In God the way i want if i read it right and God will search you in the ways you believe and dont believe untill you get it right A relationship that God wants with you not really that you want with him

[RMadd]

Well, I think I realized why no one's responding to your posts... misspelling, hard to follow... you're falling perilously close to creedsister's domain there fella.... but, I assume this is the post you've been itching for me & uncertain & eusebio to respond to, so here goes

Quote: (Originally Posted by RoffeDH)

He he he This is fun

So averyone reffering to the old testament as a legitimit source for looking for answeres about homosexuality can just go and throw the bible out the door and never look in it again, what use? You're reffering to another religion... Almoste!

referring to another religion? yes, the Old Testament is the Jewish Torah, but it's still considered part of the Christian heritage, b/c, believe it or not, it "forewarns" of Jesus' coming and all the fun stuff about how to live correctly to best please God.

Quote: (Originally Posted by RoffeDH)

Now why do I say this? 'Couse it says things that we today don't agree with, I mean two doughters getting their father drunk and then raping him to gett preagnant with the childs of two tribe fathers... So incest is right? NO!

to what story are you referring? Noah, after he got off the ark? that's the only one that sounds familiar to your description. I'm not sure whose interpretation you're using, but pastors & youth pastors & sunday school teachers I've had have all pointed out that Noah did, in fact, sin there. yes, it's incest. believe it or not, the people in all those OT stories you read were every bit as sinful as us (some of them just knew better how to set their lives right with God).

Quote: (Originally Posted by RoffeDH)

To gett back to "the gay people", it says in the old testament that it's a sin and all that crap, don't get me wrong I'm a christian my self, but why don't I agree with the bible on this, and alot of other things? If you look at the old testament and take away all the stuff about there being a God then you have guidelines for how a tribe should be flourishing and never die. You can't have sex with a wonem for two (or is it one) week after their period they are considered filthy and a man can't masturbate... Why all this? 'Couse the women aren't able to have children duiring this period and why shouldn't men be able to masturbate becouse then they might spoil a chans of haveing a son/doughter, plus they thought that the man didn't have endless amount of sperms.

Ummm, well, masturbation is pretty wrong, since it involves putting something (i.e. your own sexual pleasure and depravity) ahead of God (and not only if you skip church on Sunday to pinch one off in your bathroom sink). Aside from that, I really can't make heads or tails of what you're saying there, so I'll just leave it be....

Quote: (Originally Posted by RoffeDH)

This tells us that it's the same with homosexuality, you don't get any children and make the tribe become bigger and stronger! That's why homosexuallity is forbidden in the old testament, it didn't make it grow, that's why the rabbies made this rule up and
I agree with them (couse I don't think it was God who made that rule but the rabbies who made a logical soulution about the religion) 'couse Judeism is a religion that you must be born into you can't convert.
But what about what Paulus say in the new testament! He say that it's a sin!
Yeah! But he also was a jude before he became a christian so it might be there he got it from.

is their a problem with him deriving what he believes in from Jewish (I assume this is what you mean when you say "Jude," which, btw, is part of a Beatles song, not a world religion)? because, after all, Christianity is based in part on Judaism (as you might recall, I said this above w/ regard to your suggestion we more or less discard the OT). I think we've pretty well established that God doesn't look to kindly upon homosexuality in the OT. But you and Lith and a couple others are now saying that He thinks it's ok. So, just as I asked a few posts ago, wherein lies your Scriptural basis for this claim? Yes, God is Love. Yes, God loves all. But that doesn't mean that God loves our sins and doesn't care that we commit the very same sin again and again.

So, you seemed to assert that I would read your post and would be forced to agree with you 100%. It seems to me that your own confidence in your ability to explicate your position in a mature, understandable fashion backed up by certifiable claims is a bit too high given the nature of this post to which I've responded. Indeed, I find it to be quite difficult to read at times (perhaps for this reason, a number of us started reading and then decided the pain was not worth it, to debunk a load of baseless claims). Furthermore, your terminology and understanding of basic Biblical concepts could stand to be improved substantially. You may call yourself a Christian, but I think you very much lack a true understanding of the message God is trying to convey to us to this very day. I think you have fallen prey to the relativistic beliefs of modern society and have attempted (and failed very miserably, might I add) to make the Bible to fit inside them. Very, very wrong, my friend. The Bible is absolute and cannot be twisted to fit the claims of moral relativism.

[RMadd]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Rocketqueen)

I disagree he never said that man made God

Rocketqueen: read this....

Quote: (Originally Posted by The Lithium)

A comment on Ryan's post: Men made God! Not the other way around!

RQ, you want some aloe vera?