IMPORTANT: Possible Draft to begin in June 2005

[Dogstar]

Quote: (Originally Posted by whitebird)

Thanks Dogstar, I have always had great respect for you. From the first time I started posting here, I have valued the truth, compassion and depths of your words.

Thank you, whitebird, and likewise

[Torn Signs]

I have chosen to lead an honest life where I dig to find the truth. If that sounds ironic oh well. I'm a Christian and have been for a long time. If you don't want to believe the truth fine. My job is to tell it and fight for it, not to wait around and make sure everyone follows it.

[Mulletman]

This is gonna get real ugly real fast. Choose your words carefully. . . .

[Bridge of Clay]

I second Mullet: you won't agree with each other, and that's the beauty of Free Will. This matter won't take you anywhere.

Whitebird: awesome words. Very wise. God bless you.

[whitebird]

Thanks Marcos, what you said about the beauty of free will, is so very wise also.

If someone like myself were to be drafted, their free will would be taken away. Put into a kill or be killed situation, most would be killed, perhaps endangering others around them. If they did kill, their minds would be so damaged, they would relive the horror for the rest of their lives.

There are many soldiers, who spend the rest of their days in and out of mental hospitals, or destroying themselves with drugs, because they cannot live with what they have seen and done. What a sadness to know that they will never heal.

It is not a matter of bravery, in my own personal situation, that makes me believe war is wrong, but a deep love and respect for all living creatures, including man. Taking one life, to create freedom for another is something I cannot believe in.

Knowing what is right for yourself and your spirit is not something someone else can see, but what you feel inside.

If a draft were ever to happen in this country again, I would hope that the people making the final decisions would consider people like myself, and include them into a special area. Service to your country can take many forms, and there are many nonviolent areas that we could help.

Too many wonderful lives were lost in Vietnam due to random drafting.

[Mulletman]

See I dont fully understand what you mean by that, so I hope you dont mind if I ask. Are you refering to those with your mentality or outlook toward life, or everyone in general. I dont believe in killing but I know that somethings have to be done in certian situations. In our wonderful history no country has even been liberated, no race has ever been freed through plain prayer. That's why I posted that quote from Mill above. I know war is evil, but in most cases it is a necessary evil. I believe in making a sacrifice for the things that are right, justified, and that you believe in. The bible does state Thou shall not kill, but it does condone actions that are justifiable. This might not apply to those that are not catholic, but the Vatacan never condemed the war in Iraq. As a matter of fact, operations in Iraq never started untill after President Bush visited the Pope and got his 'permission' and Bush is protistant.

My father was an paratrooper, airborne sniper to be exact, and he made that choice to make a difference. His last tour was in Kosovo, during the height of the Milosavich conflict. I remember hearing from his buddies that they could smell the stench of death from the planes, thats how they knew the drop zone was close. Yea he got a front row seat to ethnic cleansing... you guys know what a river rat is? Well he told me of one time they had to cross a marshy field to take an objective. Well that field was nothing more than a mass grave, fresh one I might add. Imagine crawling on your stomach in a marsh about the size of two world cup regulation soccer fields filled with corpses. That is more than enough to make some cringe in disgust and others to cry. Everyone asks him the same question over and over again with a confused look on thier faces, and his responce is the same "Because it had to be done"

[Unforgiven Fan]

Quote: (Originally Posted by whitebird)

"Thou Shalt Not Kill" It seems that people forget the meaning of these words.

not to be an ass---- but it is "Thou Shall not Murder" not kill. Some people long time ago screwed the translation up...so that commandment does not apply here....

[RMadd]

Torn Signs, I'll agree w/ you that the war and its portrayal to the American public has been very negative. just yesterday, at a local memorial day ceremony, my mom talked with the older brother of one of my sisters' friends. he has been over in Iraq for two tours of duty in the past 16 months, and said that it's very uplifting and moralizing (i don't if it's a word, but if "demoralizing" is, then this must be too) to know that the vast majority of Iraqis WANT the coalition forces there. My mom was, naturally, shocked to hear this, given the portrayal by the media over here. And I hate to be so negative-sounding about this, but death is a fact of war, and those who are upset at the loss of American life should give up being so damn selfish, for two reasons in particular. One: the soldiers are not drafted and joined the military on their own accord (just as, in the same way, whitebird, was able to not take a job making land mines). They should understand that one of the potential results of joining the armed services can be death. Two: we've enjoyed freedom as a people in every way for the past 200+ years thanks to the efforts of our military. Don't you think it's ridiculous to want to hide in a little hole while other people suffer at the hands of heinous dictators (Saddam Hussein).

[RMadd]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Unforgiven Fan)

not to be an ass---- but it is "Thou Shall not Murder" not kill. Some people long time ago screwed the translation up...so that commandment does not apply here....

and, not to be an ass to you, but i think that the same thing is being implied by either one: the causation of the death of another human being. who knows what the original Hebrew (that was the language of the OT, correct?) word/phrasing was, and what it meant... but it's still quite interesting b/c God seemed to allow the people of Israel go to war w/ the other nationalities in the time period.

[whitebird]

Mulletman, fair question. Perhaps I should have said, too many wonderful lives were lost in Vietnam, period. Thanks.

I wish I could explain the person that I am to you. I truly seem to have born with a sensitivity to life that many others have never experienced. I'm not saying I'm better than anyone else, as someone on this board suggested, only different.

Even as a small child, animals used to behave oddly around me, becoming hyper excited when ever I was near. No jokes, please. I seem to have a connection with life, which animals seem to be able to sense.

I can feel their fear, when they are hurt or upset, and I must tell you, it is very unpleasant.

To be put into a war situation where I encountered the fear and death of a person, whom I had personally hurt, or help to build a tool that would blow off the legs of little children running in fields, would be something that I could not live with.

Others make their choices, and must live with them also, for good or bad.

I regret that your Father had to experience the things that he did in war, but as you said, it was a choice that he made.

I greatly respect the right of all of us to express our views, differing greatly at times, and blending together at others.

Peace.

[Torn Signs]

You may love the nature and life as much as you wish. I on the other hand will explain my reasoning for being who "I" am. Since it fits to tell stories now.
I am but one teenager of many in a corrupt world. You speak of war as bad, I speak of it as a revolution many age periods, including mine have had to grow up with. Black Hawk Down was a gruesome event, Vietnam was also gruesome. You speak of the mentality of those who come back from the war and I can see what you mean. My father who is a Veteran from Vietnam had a friend who had Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and almost killed a man because of it.
As humans, as followers of God, we are born to love. But as being placed on this Earth, comes the knowledge of who owns it. God gave this world to Satan. I don't know if it was b/c of the first angel thing or beauty, or why. I'm not going to question God. I'm not going to follow Satan. I'm simply going to follow the nature of fighting just as hard as you may have to continue living on this earth.
It was their choice to go to war wasn't it? Or was it not? Society pushes those thoughts of bravery of us just as the counterculture rose up against it in the 1960's. Who we are is NOT just because of who are what we grew up around with, it is by who the most evil in the world make it.
The draft, it is only needed should our numbers be really bad over there. There are volunteers. But the war should not be completely stopped should it? Or should those who are receiving freedom over there be allowed to get it? Yes, Sadaam was found in a hole with just a handgun. The handgun is in the Oval Office. BIG WHOOP! So Bush may have a bit of class, but a soldier gave him that gun. If you grew up with having a relation to life, I grew up hating it.
For I've seen the pain and the hurt. I've lived the dirt. I just don't want it to stop b/c it's a fact of life. As my father says, "Buck up, Cowgirl." I've had insults, I've been a nobody, and I've become a Christian because of it. I almost lost my jaw to violence. Again, don't let it stop b/c its a fact of life. And to ruin a fact of life is to try and ruin life itself. You are a peace follower, fine by me. Just note, I do not always find peace as the answer. To move past the pain and hurt is to feel courage. God offers that. To move past the pain and dirt is to become stronger. Even if those soldiers had mental breakdowns, they saw something in life others haven't seen. They've seen just how cold the human race is. And until EVERYONE understands that, let it continue. For the only way to fix the problem is to let those who have not yet seen it realize what it all is. And if it requires a few stubborn individuals who want to keep living and breeding their genes so more and more violence grows, then let them see what that violence is in the first place. I hate funerals. I hate pain, but I move beyond it. And maybe that is the answer to the human race. ALL of us make choices. And so far all I've seen for those choices are the ones that put us in this debate in the first place. That's a different subject, for population control is also gruesome is it not?
I contradict myself and in no way do not believe what I say. I say things mostly to prove the points I list. To let all those beings who read my posts think about all sides of things. I am neutral in some positions very strong in others. To say something bad about the president b/c the Illumanit hide the truth and evil reigns is to not look for the truth. To look for the truth and not back down from it, to accept it, is to be someone that has to be understood.
Peace out,
Torn Signs.