Daily Bread

[HeavenBesideYou]

January 18th

"Falling short?"

For each success I have at walking in the footsteps of Christ, I have a dozen failures where I have strayed from the path. And through it all, God still loves me totally. In my imperfection, God still reveres me and thinks I am good. It boggles the mind to realize that human beings are God's pride and joy. Despite the grief and frustration we must be, God believes in us and helps us to be the best people that we can be. He loves His children and rejoices in their victories. Our Lord created us just lower than the angels; the most perfect of His creations.

Despair not. No matter how inadequate we might feel, we are considered beautiful by our Creator, and in the end it is His opinion, not ours, that makes all the difference in the world.

Thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

Psalm 8:5

...So we're off the mark a little, but it also tells me that we can hit the mark and see his Glory again.

Marie Williams

Heaven

[HeavenBesideYou]

Quote: (Originally Posted by SecretWeapon)

Do you really have nothing better to do than to spoil people's daily bread?
I mean , come on , is this thread really hurting you ?

It's okay SW, as long as Ralphy is posting with honest intent, I don't mind his words...

Reading Twain's skepticism in light of late-life disappointments only back's up what I have researched on him, that he searched numerous religions for a perfect answer but never quite reached his goal. Raised Presbyterian, he disembarked from his childhood teachings and explored several options but to my knowledge never considered himself an Atheist.

By examining Twain's earliest letters, sketches, and tales, you can see that Mark Twain was a man who continually faced varying religious doctrines and found them all wanting. I am sure you've done your research Ralphy, is that what sparks your posts here?

His religious ire was not with God but with Christian hypocrisy and behavior... I believe we all have the tendency to go through this. Perhaps you have the same lament?

Heaven

[RalphyS]

Well now that you've asked about my status, I looked up this thing I wrote as my atheist testimony a while ago, I reread it and edited it only very little and this is it:

My road to disbelief and militant atheism.

As you can see I’m from The Netherlands, a country historically split between Catholic (under the great rivers, Rhine-Meuse) and the Protestant religion of the royals above the rivers. As I’m from the southernmost point of Holland all my surroundings are/were basically Roman Catholic-oriented. But in the meantime the dechurchification of our country is in such an advanced state that we are one of the more secular countries in the world, which was proven by the Purple government in the 90’s (A government without participation of the Christian Democrats, who were in there always before that, which was able to pass laws in favor of euthanasia as well as homosexual-marriages, thank God J).

Back to my personal circumstances, both my father and my mother come from the same little village nearby and went to a school led by nuns, in their upbringing years Catholicism was still a very strong powerbase and I can remember my mom telling me the story of how the pastor would come to their home, when her mother (my grandmother) wasn’t pregnant within half a year of delivering a baby. That’s why the generation of people of my grandmother’s age all have lots of children around here. Catechism was very strictly taught and enforced at school as my parents told me and overall church attendance was enforced on my parents too on Sundays. If I ever complained as a kid about religious teachings I was told by my parents that I should be glad I didn’t have to learn and do all the stuff that they had to do.

I think because they were force-fed religion in such a manor, they were very loose towards me about it. We only went to church at Easter and Christmas. Ofcourse I went to a Catholic school (as if there were any others around here), but not one led by nuns. I have to mention that this grade-school was an all-boy school and that the girls of my age did go to a school in a convent led by nuns. Just after I graduated the school got mixed by the way and nowadays there is only one school in this town. In school we used to pray in the first couple of grades at the start of the day, we went to mass (in the convent) once a week, in the fifth grade the chaplain came by on Friday morning to teach us religion (nowadays there are too few priests around here and there are no more chaplains) and his boss, the pastor did the same in the sixth and last grade.

At home I remember having a nice bible with beautiful drawings of Adam and Eve surrounded by animals in the paradise, the Ark of Noah and so on, the drawings were the most appealing part and let’s be honest, the stories of the O.T. are nice fairytales for a child. I do have to add that in opposition to what I’ve read around here a lot, there was never a fear of hell installed in us as children, we were all good children, who would inevitably go to heaven.

Ofcourse there were also the common Catholic rituals as a child, baptism I obviously don’t remember, because it happens weeks after your birth, in second grade there was our first communion, a remarkable event because a)it was the only time we did something together with the girl’s school and b) it triggered a 3-day feast at my home, at which I got lots and lots of presents. In 5th grade there was also confirmation, in which a 10-year-old has to confirm his baptism and thus state that he truly believes in the Christian God, like he now really understands it all. L I must admit that I had a phase sometime during my grade school years that I was really interested in the concept of Jesus and God and I even asked my father to attend mass with me for a couple of times, but after a few visits that became boring very soon. Catholic mass is basically a mind-numbing experience.

After grade school came high school, also a Catholic one, originally also founded by nuns or friars or something like that, but basically at that time just a good school. Secular schools weren’t available and neither me nor my parents didn’t care about the foundation, it was a school for the brighter children opposed to the schools, who taught you a trade and that was the important thing. The religious aspect of the school consisted of a mass at the start of the school year (Remarkable anecdote about that: I once got sick (that means I had to vomit) during one of this opening masses, and as I was sitting just beside the altar, I had to go through the entire church to get out. I wasn’t ill before it or after it, it could have been the insense (sp?), but I really didn’t feel sick until I started to throw up??) and religion lessons.

During these religion lessons all the 4 major religions of the world were explained, with a short text book (Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism) and this was really my first inclination that not all people believed in the Jebus-story. The religion teacher, who is deceased by now, was a strict guy, who aborted his education to become a priest, before being ordained. I wonder whether it was doubts about the Christian faith or the hardships of becoming a priest (the celibate etc.) that made him quit. School played an even bigger part in my deconversion, ofcourse there were the history lessons (my favourite subject) in which you learned about religious wars and all the other stuff that happened in the name of God during history, which raised some questions, but still a good Catholic boy as I was believed in God, nonetheless, although we still only visited church at special occasions.

But there was one subject I always had trouble with during high school, physics, no matter how hard I studied, somehow I didn’t quite understand it in such a manor that I could make the tests satisfactory. To understand better you have to know that I was a real study geek at that time, high grades were normal, getting home and doing your homework before doing anything else was normal, and a bad grade was in my own little world a terrible and horrific thing and my parents would surely punish me badly for it, so I thought. (I had and have the most loving parents, who did praise me for getting good grades, but they would have also loved me if I tried and failed). Than once again a physics-test was coming up and I studied and I studied and I knew all the facts, but I just couldn’t combine the logic to get the good results for the questions I tested myself with. I was desperate and what do you do as a Christian, if all else fails, you pray to God to get you out of this mess. Surely He would help me, after all, I had given it my all and now He would help me. What can I say, I failed the test, the revelation, which I expected to happen in which all the answers would become clear didn’t occur, my prayers were unanswered and this invoked the thought in my mind that if God couldn’t even help me with such a small thing (although it was a very big thing for me at that time), what use was He? Better yet, it raised the question whether there was this big sky daddy that listens to everything you ask for, at all. So this was my first real epiphany, basically about the uselessness of believing in and praying to God. Well I won’t say I became an atheist at that point, it wasn’t much later that I told my parents that I didn’t want to go to church anymore even at X-mas and Easter, it was both boring and useless in my opinion now.
I think they still forced me to go at the holidays for a couple of years, until at one point I flat out refused to go on holy night, big discussion, screams, but I held my ground and ever since it was clear I wouldn’t go, although my father still nudges me quietly sometimes to come along. They still went to church at X-mas, but abandoned Easter, and later X-mas too. Meanwhile they only go at funerals and weddings and stuff like that.

By the way I basically invented my own sort of religion than, I used a bit of Hinduism and Buddhism and combined that with what they had told me at physics, that energy cannot disappear and in my own warped logic I concluded that the energy of a living person thus also couldn’t disappear and that therefore reincarnation was the logical conclusion. Gods were out of the picture, since prayer was useless, and I could also not understand why an omnipotent and omniscient being would require for us to pray and adore him, he has it all, so how could he wish or desire something, and the 3rd thing was the fact that I in the meantime had learned about all the atrocities committed in the name of religion, John Lennon’s “Imagine” best describes that feeling of thinking the world would be better off without religion.

[RalphyS]

After that religion really was not an issue in my life, it rarely comes up in every day life, because there are no fundies in this area, there is only one broadcast station which tries to ‘spread the gospel’, but they have limited broadcast time and can easily be avoided. I was real glad that the Christian Democrats were voted out of the government in the 90’s and that some of these laws mentioned above could be introduced without some religious mindset blocking them. I have to admit that this Christian party is not a fundie party, but still on all issues like abortion, euthanasia and such they take the so-called pro-life hardline. On homosexual marriages even they have led up. So since graduating high school my life became religion free basically. And in a period of about 15 years I tried to avoid anything to do with God or religion which in my own life was reasonably easy, but ofcourse the news of religious wars/struggles in places like the middle east and Ireland was utterly amazing to me and basically, let’s be honest, you get pissed off as a non-believer if you hear about people killing in the name of something that you don’t even think exists.

At one point I became more convinced of my atheism and even a militant defender of it. It all started with music, more specifically, the music of Creed. Around 1998/1999 the internet dawned upon me and with the help of a friend I had started a website about modern (rock-oriented) music (still maintain it http://RalphyS.tripod.com) and for it I wrote CD reviews and one of the CD’s I reviewed was Creed’s “Human clay”. I really loved that album and I went to their official website to look up some stuff and also found a forum there. As we probably all know their music is very spiritually oriented and on that forum was also a Faith/Religion Forum. First I started reading stuff about how the band was supposedly a Christian band or not, but eventually I started vending out my own opinions against the death penalty, weapon restrictions and about my disbelief in God. I got the usual fundie reactions as well as some more moderate ones from more liberal Christians, but most amazing I found the discussions between atheists and theists. The logical reasoning of some atheists (I especially admired a guy called SanDiegoSciFiGuy) crushed the theology of the believers and some of them would react in a very angry and mean manor. Tolerance wasn’t big on that board, nonetheless I really loved the discussions and I became kind of an addict to these discussions. The closed-mindedness of the theists on that board, you know the basic ‘faith is better than logic’-crap, made me angry and especially afraid. I mean if people like this get the upperhand in the most powerful country in the world and impose all of their morals that are coming from an ancient fairytale book on us the world would be much the poorer for it.

Since than I have been confirmed that the atheist-view I had was the right one, I discarded the belief in reincarnation, and am now a full fledge militant atheist. Not that I go out in the streets and throw protest flags in people’s faces, in this highly secular society I would be considered some kind of (anti-)religious nut, but when it comes up I discuss the reasons why I don’t believe and around here were religion is more tradition than an actual act of faith, people sometimes listen with an open mind and even agree on a lot of things. For instance my mother always says it is very hard to believe that an all-loving God could let all these bad things happen in the world, not that she now is a non-believer, but a bit of doubt is spread. But I’ve been most active spreading the word of reason on several bulletin boards over the internet, challenging the absolutists, the conservatives, the fundies, to an open discussion, others read along and are sometimes influenced or at least I hope so, to throw away their sheep-status of following the herd without question. And this is were I am now in my life.
Happy with my status as non-believer, but terribly afraid that the religious right will come to power (even more than with the already very frightening Dubya) in the only remaining superpower nation and hoping to reason against that.

When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad, and that is my religion.
Abraham Lincoln (1809 - 1865) (attributed)

[HeavenBesideYou]

That's a lot to respond to in one post Ralphy so I would like to break it down and go from there if you don't mind...

First lets establish who you are. I was at the original Creed Board and only posted in the F/R forum for over 2 years and would like to know what your username was. Mine has never changed... Although you criticize the environment mindset at the time you were there, perhaps you missed all of the good conversations I held with sci-fi, scorchwound, bo-evil (true black metal), as well as several other "disbelievers"... If you did then you missed the best two years (imo). Several intelligent conversations were spread across the world and it opened new doors for everyone involved. I am not a fundie, nor do I follow any sheep. Quite frankly if you recall I am quite like you in my political views and went through what you did during childhood as if we were brothers... I will admit that place could get nasty (Lord knows), but all in all it was a growing experience for me and if you took advantage of the multitudes of thoughts and opinions I believe it did touch you in some way...

Second, your childhood is just that. Childhood. I am no therapist but from what I have learned these can be your most influential years and from what you have told me you had quite the negative experience when it comes to religion. That's okay though, as did I. As we mature, the idealisms force fed to us via the church do seem arrogant and meaningless when it comes to real life situations, but that's not their intent. Your life's what you make it, not what God or Buddha or anyone can... This you need to understand before you can evaluate why you feel the way you feel. I would love to pray to pass a test, but that's not going to make it happen. Not that alone anyway. In retrospect, if I received everything I have prayed for in my life it probably would have killed me. My point? You won't receive anything you don't need to experience what you need to run your race on this crazy ball.

God is no Santa and religion isn't here for us to live on wants and needs, it's a faith based inner working that allows you to be the best you can be and use your own tools to attain that spiritually. True it's a mindset, a very hard one at that, but it's your belief that governs your trials and tribulations.

I will let this ride for now but I would like to know if we have already met, and leave you with what I always offered at the old Creed Board:

No one can prove that God does not exist. And no one (but God Himself) can prove that God does exist.

The best that either side of this question can do is to present evidence supporting their position.

As someone who truly believes in the existence of God, I see overwhelming evidence that God exists and that the Bible is true.

Perspective makes a big difference. One person looks at a glass as half full, another sees it as half empty. Right now we know where we stand, but my mission is to share a drink with you, not argue the measure of it's contents.

I look forward to getting to know you Ralphy.

Peace,

Heaven

[HeavenBesideYou]

...and Ironhorse is here too!



Heaven

[RalphyS]

Quote: (Originally Posted by HeavenBesideYou)

First lets establish who you are. I was at the original Creed Board and only posted in the F/R forum for over 2 years and would like to know what your username was. Mine has never changed...

My username is also still the same, I also frequented the F/R forum most and I cannot remember how long I exactly posted around there, only that I had been absent for a few months for coming back there, only to find out that the forum was going to be cancelled.

Quote: (Originally Posted by HeavenBesideYou)

Although you criticize the environment mindset at the time you were there, perhaps you missed all of the good conversations I held with sci-fi, scorchwound, bo-evil (true black metal), as well as several other "disbelievers"... If you did then you missed the best two years (imo). Several intelligent conversations were spread across the world and it opened new doors for everyone involved.

I found this forum a very eye-opening experience, I had good discussions and I had bad ones, some people of the opposite viewpoint, who I could and still do relate with (there's one Christian that I regurlarly chat with on MSN, I consider her a friend, although our view on life in general is very different) on a basis of agreeing to disagree, and others whose viewpoints and ideas were so opposed to mine, that it led to harsh discussions.

Quote: (Originally Posted by HeavenBesideYou)

I am not a fundie, nor do I follow any sheep.

I meant to say follow like sheep, not follow sheep, I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.

Quote: (Originally Posted by HeavenBesideYou)

Quite frankly if you recall I am quite like you in my political views and went through what you did during childhood as if we were brothers... I will admit that place could get nasty (Lord knows), but all in all it was a growing experience for me and if you took advantage of the multitudes of thoughts and opinions I believe it did touch you in some way...

As I stated I learned a lot there too, and I was sorry that the board was deleted.

Quote: (Originally Posted by HeavenBesideYou)

Second, your childhood is just that. Childhood. I am no therapist but from what I have learned these can be your most influential years and from what you have told me you had quite the negative experience when it comes to religion. That's okay though, as did I. As we mature, the idealisms force fed to us via the church do seem arrogant and meaningless when it comes to real life situations, but that's not their intent. Your life's what you make it, not what God or Buddha or anyone can... This you need to understand before you can evaluate why you feel the way you feel. I would love to pray to pass a test, but that's not going to make it happen. Not that alone anyway. In retrospect, if I received everything I have prayed for in my life it probably would have killed me. My point? You won't receive anything you don't need to experience what you need to run your race on this crazy ball.

God is no Santa and religion isn't here for us to live on wants and needs, it's a faith based inner working that allows you to be the best you can be and use your own tools to attain that spiritually. True it's a mindset, a very hard one at that, but it's your belief that governs your trials and tribulations. ...

My childhood experience with religion I would not really call negative, I feel lucky to have grown up in a place where religion wasn't indoctrinated deeply into me. You also state that God is no Santa, but nowadays I think that's exactly what he is, a Santa for adults, an imaginary friend if you will. I have never seen any real proof for Santa's existence, but perhaps even more for his existence as for the existence of (a) God(s).

As I stated my childhood experiences led to some sort of disbelief, which was later only substantiated as I learned more and more about (organized) religion(s). I still don't claim to be an absolute expert to know everything and all about religion/christianity, but I now know enough to be sure that the teachings and preachings of worshipping a non-existing God for me only stand in the way of doing things that might really be important.

Quote: (Originally Posted by HeavenBesideYou)

I will let this ride for now but I would like to know if we have already met, and leave you with what I always offered at the old Creed Board:

No one can prove that God does not exist. And no one (but God Himself) can prove that God does exist.

The best that either side of this question can do is to present evidence supporting their position.

As someone who truly believes in the existence of God, I see overwhelming evidence that God exists and that the Bible is true.

Perspective makes a big difference. One person looks at a glass as half full, another sees it as half empty. Right now we know where we stand, but my mission is to share a drink with you, not argue the measure of it's contents.

I look forward to getting to know you Ralphy.

Peace,

Heaven

Well it is impossible to proof the non-existence of something, therefore as you undoubtedly heard before the burden of proof lies with the one, who claims existence of something.

As for sharing a drink, I'm never opposed to that, as you might have gathered from my signature

The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact than a drunken man is happier than a sober one.
George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

[Lunar Shadow]

Quote: (Originally Posted by RalphyS)

Well it is impossible to proof the non-existence of something, therefore as you undoubtedly heard before the burden of proof lies with the one, who claims existence of something.

have you found this article on infidels yet ralphy?? I did find it interesting.

[HeavenBesideYou]

January 19th

"The Golden Rule"

Golden because it's genuine, lasting, and valuable. Imagine how different our world would be if we practiced this principle... Not just in our "church life" but in our daily life with our family, with our coworkers and employer, with the people we manage, with the folks on the freeway and in the neighborhoods where we drive, toward the waiters and waitresses who serve us. What a wonderfully different world it would be if the Golden Rule were to be practiced by all!

In everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the prophets.

Matthew 7:12

Remember, people will judge you by your actions, not your intentions. You may have a heart of gold, but so does a hard-boiled egg.

Unknown

Heaven

[HeavenBesideYou]

Quote: (Originally Posted by RalphyS)

My username is also still the same, I also frequented the F/R forum most and I cannot remember how long I exactly posted around there, only that I had been absent for a few months for coming back there, only to find out that the forum was going to be cancelled.As for sharing a drink, I'm never opposed to that, as you might have gathered from my signature

I don't remember you but that actually may be a good thing. Our discussions here will have no repetitive history thus opening the gate for unlimited topics without prejudgment.

Quote: (Originally Posted by RalphyS)

Well it is impossible to proof the non-existence of something, therefore as you undoubtedly heard before the burden of proof lies with the one, who claims existence of something.

I always enjoy sharing my belief and "proofs" if you will, give me a topic to begin with and we'll discuss...

In a new thread if you don't mind.

Heaven

[RalphyS]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Anarkist)

have you found this article on infidels yet ralphy?? I did find it interesting.

Indeed interesting, so it might be possible to prove the non-existance of a God, if both theists and atheists agree on some sort of definition of the attributes that this God has to adher too.

But alas all too often it is said that God is unknowable or 'has mysterious ways', on the other hand it is also claimed that God is omniscient, omnibenevolent and omnipotent. There are already contradictions in these statements, if God is unknowable, how can we know the latter 3 things, if he is omnipotent could he create a rock that cannot be moved, and could he than move that rock? This things are not possible, therefore the a God with all the attributes cannot exist. This is the proof for non-existence of such a God, the problem is this reasoning is logical, and theists will than state that it is possible for God to be unknowable and the 3 o's, because God does not have to be logical. So it only proves that you cannot debate logically with someone that believes in something illogical.

[Lunar Shadow]

Quote: (Originally Posted by RalphyS)

But alas all too often it is said that God is unknowable or 'has mysterious ways', on the other hand it is also claimed that God is omniscient, omnibenevolent and omnipotent. There are already contradictions in these statements, if God is unknowable, how can we know the latter 3 things, if he is omnipotent could he create a rock that cannot be moved, and could he than move that rock? This things are not possible, therefore the a God with all the attributes cannot exist. This is the proof for non-existence of such a God, the problem is this reasoning is logical, and theists will than state that it is possible for God to be unknowable and the 3 o's, because God does not have to be logical. So it only proves that you cannot debate logically with someone that believes in something illogical.

this is unfortunatly true

[HeavenBesideYou]

January 20th

"Keep it simple."

The Lord is our refuge and our strength. It takes a great deal of wisdom to realize that. Our lives are much more than possessions and positions. Our lives are gifts from God; given to us and to others for His glory. We need not ask what more God can do for us, but what we might do for God. He will surely let us know.

The Lord also will be a refuge for the oppressed, a refuge in times of trouble.

Psalm 9:9

We must resist the temptations to be very wasteful of simple things, tossing them aside as of no consequence, in a world of almost frenetic concentration on material success.

Loretta Young

Heaven

[HeavenBesideYou]

January 21st

"Hey Ref, are you blind?"

In football, referees tell you whether a catch was made in bounds or not. In tennis, linesmen render instant judgment calls on whether a ball landed in or out. In baseball, umpires signal fair or foul.But in life if often seems as though the game isn't being played fairly and that no one is around to call foul. Flagrant violations of the rules go unnoticed, and so many people are playing out-of-bounds and getting away with it.

Sometimes we do see the harmful effects of playing out-of-bounds ( Psalm 7:15 or Numbers 32:23 ). But other times the Lord's ruling extends farther than our mortal eye can see. Paul told the Athenians that God "has set a day for judging the world with justice" ( Acts 17:31 ), so we can trust that he will one day set everything right, although we may not see his ruling in our lifetime.

Don't say, "I will get even for this wrong." Wait for the Lord to handle the matter.

Proverbs 20:22

Fatherlike he tends and spares us;
Well our feeble frame he knows.
In his hands he gently bears us,
Rescues us from all our foes.

Caroline Sandell Berg

Heaven

[HeavenBesideYou]

January 22nd

"Relationships"

We all live in a web of relationships dependent upon obedience to authority. Like a loving parent, God sets standards for our good and to protect us from evil and harm. God desires obedience motivated not by fear buy by love and trust. Ironically, obedience actually frees us up to enjoy life as God intended, because it keeps us from becoming entangled or enslaved to those things that distract us and cause us heartache. Even though God's command is sometimes difficult, or doesn't make sense from our human perspective, obedience will always bring blessing, joy, and peace. This holds true for your partner’s perspectives as well. Without limits there is no respect, without respect there is no love...

No good thing will the Lord withhold from those who do what is right. O Lord Almighty, happy are those who trust in you.

Psalm 84:11-12

I was not born to be free. I was born to adore and to obey.

C. S. Lewis

Heaven