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03-29-2006, 01:27 AM | #46 |
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Re: Atheism growing in America
I can adress this one right away
the process goes as follows You get asexual first, then viruses acting like sperm, then male/female, etc. it will take a little time to respond to all points underlined mind you but a good start for you is try and find online (I don't know your internet connection speed) and download the NOVA series from PBS that deals with the origin of our solar system the title of the 4 part series is called "Origins" http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/origins/ and also you can learn more about Abiogenesis in the mean time at www.talkorigins.com I will be back but alas I must do soem research and I also have to be at work early tomorrow morning I do have my work cut out for me answering you and UD in the next day or so
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03-30-2006, 07:24 PM | #47 |
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Re: Atheism growing in America
Oh ok. But where do the viruses come from? http://www.mrs.umn.edu/~goochv/CellB...rus/virus.html Were they randomly created alongside the "extremely simple" new life form? They would have had to have been created (being not alive, technically) while the primitive life form(s) was already alive and functioning, and in the same exact point in space and time to be able to find the life form(s). This only adds to the improbability. Does it not? Last edited by SecretWeapon : 03-30-2006 at 07:35 PM. |
04-03-2006, 05:37 AM | #48 |
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Re: Atheism growing in America
my apologies for not yet responding....... my 9 month old did something to my computer that ended up frying the mother board and I am trying to fix it it may take a few more days (due to the fact that I do have a job not to mention 2 small children.
I am over at my parents house right now using their computer but it is rather late. warmest regards, Lunar Shadow
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04-03-2006, 04:24 PM | #49 |
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Re: Atheism growing in America
I suppose I wouldn't mind although most of the relevant material I have read always starts bordering on pantheism, which I can barely even talk about it is so pathetic. Basically I am wary of reading anything on the subject because it seems useless. As soon as one says "objective morality" it means something beyond humans (since, if it isn't higher than it isn't objective). And that seems to deny atheism right away. I guess one can make the argument that the moral law is not a God per se, but it is still higher than humans, and it has to have come from somwhere, and that somewhere also *has* to be higher than humans, which would then, effectively deflate any notion that humans are as high as it gets, which is what most atheists mean by their atheism. There are many other problems with "morality outside God", such as how we know of this morality, but the first one is the one which just seems to nip the whole darn thing in the bud.
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04-04-2006, 10:43 PM | #50 |
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Re: Atheism growing in America
Add that to the fact that we can't go back in time and see where religion allegedly "began". Apearantly every culture in Earth's past seems to have had some form of moral code, or at least higher being to hold them acountable. So, from a historical standpoint, it would seem that it can't be proven by "particular" evidence that morals have been around longer than religion. Thus, methinks, atheists attempt to prove their argument by way of psychology, etc, which basically means that they are attempting to using the realm of "absolutes" to prove that absolutes are natural (the pack of wolves argument) and not supernatural. However, if a young healthy son risks his life for his old, decrepid father who is terminaly ill... where is the "natural" advantage in that? For a young, healthy person, still able to mate and bring about offspring, to sacrifice their own lives/health for a person who is, by evolutionary standards, worthless is, by all natural explanation, unimaginable. (Assuming the son has no offspring) Yet I'm sure it's happened at least once in history. And few doubt that it is capable of the human species. |
04-06-2006, 04:39 AM | #51 |
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Re: Atheism growing in America
rather than quote mining and taking up Steves bandwidth I am just gonna post a link for a rebuttle it is on you to read it and if you don't thats not my problem..... if you have any questions then we'll talk. Go HERE and to answer the Macroevolution question you can go HERE
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04-06-2006, 04:49 AM | #52 |
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Re: Atheism growing in America
ok UD there are really only 3 elements that are required for a natural moral code to exist sentience (awareness) a sense of value and a sense of reciprocity using these three things a basic moral code can emerge... if you need a more detailed explaination just ask.
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04-06-2006, 10:43 PM | #53 |
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Re: Atheism growing in America
Umm, let's say for the moment that this is true. Where did our "sense of value" come from? It seems to me just a different way of saying we have the capability to look at things and say one is better than the other. Where did these values come from? Why do humans alone do things that might *not* benefit themselves or even their species, but instead follow some morality? Where did these values come from? Even if we take this as a valid premise (that we need only sentience, a sense of value, and a sense of reciprocity, whatever you mean by that), let alone the questions regarding what those three things even ARE, it is not really doing anything for the argument. Not only does it fail to explain why a moral law would be useful, (or even a "law" at all; again, if no one has to live by it, who gives a crap), but it fails because a law needs a judge and we don't have one, a law needs authority and it has none, and a law still has to come from seomwhere.
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04-06-2006, 10:59 PM | #54 |
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Re: Atheism growing in America
you misunderstood the use value... hmmmmm lest see you have value for something you worked for like say your paycheck so if some one tried to steal it from you you would fight to keep it it has more value than just a dollar to you because you worked for it. now if you put up some sort of fight for it you will probably win because the fact that the one trying to steal it doen't value your paycheck as much as you do for the one fact that he didn't work for it. look at value this way see if this makes more sense to you.
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04-07-2006, 04:55 PM | #55 |
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Re: Atheism growing in America
No I figured that was what you meant. So I ask you a few things; A) Who decides what is more valuable? B) Where did we even get the sense of value anyway? C) How does this lead to morals, since a sense of value would very well look at what is important to US, not other people. I dunno. I am simply not getting why this makes the unworkability of a moral law with a moral judge somehow workable.
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04-07-2006, 07:42 PM | #56 |
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Re: Atheism growing in America
It is there morality is based on the 3 things I list above and at some point(IMHO) it got a wash of religion and that is where the idea that a god handed down some sort of moral code. This type of basic morality is obsevable in many areaa out side of the "human world".
do tell me UD why don't you masturbate or have sex or swear or anything like that go deeper than "it is wrong becasue god (or the bible) says so." Why is it wrong there has to be some logical rationality for your decision. There is someting there that has nothing to do with god it is you who makes that decision of why or why not you do something. what is it (we know that one thing you'll say is god so you can go ahead and skip that) but there has to be something deeper.
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04-08-2006, 09:51 PM | #57 |
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Re: Atheism growing in America
I think you are confused. God is as deep as it gets. He made a Natural Law, and it is that law which lets people know what is right and wrong. It is strange that YOU are arguing for something deeper. I have the answer. God created the moral law. You have no answer. For you, there can be no law because there is nothing higher than humanity. Without anything higher than humanity, there simply can't be a higher law. It is a pure contradiction. You can try to throw up as many smokescreens as you want but when you get down to it, when I ask you if you have ever done something for someone besides yourself, and you answer "yes", you have no justification for it. There is no reason to if there is no God.
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04-08-2006, 11:26 PM | #58 |
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Re: Atheism growing in America
You have just admited that there is a natual moral law, Thank you for coming to you senses. now lets just say for one second here that "god" created natual moral law. There are pleanty of people who don't believe in god nor do they believe in your god but they lead moral lives. Christians believe that there are people who will never hear god but they still live a moral life why is that? it is because morality is inherent therefore the arguemnt of god is superfulous because it (morality) is built in to the system. If you look at animals they also have moral codes weather it be chimps, bird, or bees... They ALL demonstrate altruism in one matter or another.... every animal demonstrates altruism at some point or another when they are parents therefore morality is not unique to humans it is natual and inherent, built in to the system weather your god put it there or not doen't matter because it is there and you don't have to believe in a god to be moral bacause I highly doubt that a honey bee knows who or what god is let alone ponders it on a daily basis. now to apply Occum's Razor to the question of god.... Now Occum's Razor states that the explainations with the fewest X factors (unknows) is gonna be the most correct. now thinking about all the X factors that are required to justify god being reposible for morality... Has to have a vested interest in the world Has to have an Emotional interest in the world Has to be real (exist) Has to be activly in volved (none of the are provable therefore they are X factors) (mind you the list of X factors can go on and on) VS. god is not responsible for morlaity in anyway (hmmm no real X factors here) therefore god is probably not responsible for morality. as you see from what I have stated above you are the one who contradicted yourself.... there is no reason to continue this post. you are beaten
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04-08-2006, 11:34 PM | #59 |
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Re: Atheism growing in America
Exactly. Most, if not all theists freely admit that they don't have all the answers, whereas atheists claim that they can find an answer to every morality puzzle. This should cause a little red flag to pop up. Mortal philosophy has been wrong in the past, who's to say that atheism is infallible truth? |
04-08-2006, 11:41 PM | #60 |
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Re: Atheism growing in America
who said Atheism is infallible truth? It is so funny how you sit there and point out all the mistakes of Atheistic Philosophy. When Christianity has been wrong just as much it is seriously the pot calling the kettle black.
Whats up Secret Weapon? where is your resopnse to me?? did you finally realize that also believe in Abiogenesis? mind you a different kind of Abiogenesis but still Abiogenesis none the less.
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