my first post

[Lunar Shadow]

I would just like to get a few things straight here I am not a hateful person.

I tend to get frustrated with people. Hateful? Well if I have been or if I came across as such I apologize. I have been a little out of sorts as of late while I see my world be turned upside-down by personal events.

Uncertaindrummer things have been heated between us and heated is not a bad thing necessarily. Things may have gotten a bit out of control but those things happen. Pay attention you may learn something I know I have just be reading some things that various people have posted.

I stand by every argument I made. It is just frustrating when you are tiring to find you path and it seems that everything is standing in your way you know what I mean? I know I can be a lose cannon sometimes. Sometimes it does seem I don't give a shit I know. But I'll I can be is myself.

I will be the first to admit that I have become bitter and jaded by the time I spent in the church. My time was not pleasant and I feel that I was lied to and had the wool pulled over my eyes. I am angry because the fact that I feel that 18 years of my life was wasted on something I now find to be false

I hope everyone here finds the answers they are looking for no matter who you are. Steve you have been a most gracious host in my time here but my time has past I have to move on as I intended to do a couple weeks ago.

Remember life is a Journey a search for truth stay vigilant and be honest with yourself and I am sure one day you will find what you are looking for.

so in closing I leave you with this thought don't "hate" or judge some one because they have a different opinion or viewpoint just listen you may learn something.


ANARKIST
aka
Jester

[no_fixd_address]

Quote:

I will be the first to admit that I have become bitter and jaded by the time I spent in the church. My time was not pleasant and I feel that I was lied to and had the wool pulled over my eyes. I am angry because the fact that I feel that 18 years of my life was wasted on something I now find to be false

What church was that?
Were you forbidden to think for yourself?
Were you spiritually abused?

At least your post is honest.

[Lunar Shadow]

I was a member of many churches throughout my life, when ever I posed a question the required more than a simple answer it actually required people to think I was met with "Don't put God in a box." or I was accused of being a heretic or an agent of the devil or what ever well people may say that "well maybe you were just in a very conservative area" Nope I have lived in the San Francisco Bay Area most of my life and this is where all this has taken place. I am pissed with Christians for their lip service prayers and just their over all fakeness. Have you ever seen the movie "Saved"? That movie pretty much sums up every thing I dislike about Christians their presumption their arrogance their self-righteous attitude.


Mind you there are SOME Christians I know who have done the research and true gut wrenching soul searching who have come to the conclusion of Christianity and I can not blame them for that because they came there honestly it is they ones who take faith for granted the ones who have never seen the dark side of the world who have never looked death straight in the eyes and told it to fuck off the ones who have never even looked out side their box never tested their faith (oh god says not to do that for that shows lack of faith) but I ask what good is your faith if you have never strayed from it to truly know gods love and forgiveness from a hard core extreme? In my opinion its worth nothing.


I sit here a solitary man, doing the best that I can. I am not a Christian I have renounced my faith I have read too much to beLIEve that the Christian model of God is the true God (if God even exists) I am on a quest for truth.

if you are wondering I still do go to church (only because I am forced to due to my living situation) but really as of late the church that I am going to has had this "reasons to believe" series and the more I listen the more its like "reasons not to believe"

Now don't get me wrong here... I believe that IF there is a heaven that Christianity is a viable way to get there but I don't think that it is the only way not by a long shot.

So like I said I stand here a solitary man doing the very best that I can. My first and only priority is to myself, my wife, and my 2 daughters. No more no less.


ANARKIST
aka
Jester

[Lunar Shadow]

I forgot to mention as well I was forced to believe because of who my father is and was. He is an ordained minister and he is a professor and has his doctorate in theology.


ANARKIST
aka
Jester

[no_fixd_address]

I see your dilemna. You can't honor your father because you see the plasticity of Protestantism, and you have grown to reject Christianity in general because your father is a theologian. Hhhmmm...

Unrealistic expectations are demanded on Protestant ministers children, which is one reason why most of them are all screwed up. I would suggest you learn a few things about Catholicism, and challenge your father about his phony theology using that, instead of atheism. Atheism is too easy to refute. Catholicism cannot be refuted. Besides, it’s politically incorrect and extremely annoying to Protestant family members.

Quote:

Have you ever seen the movie "Saved"? That movie pretty much sums up every thing I dislike about Christians their presumption their arrogance their self-righteous attitude.

I totally agree

I am sure more fallout and comments about the anti-Catholic mini-series “Revelations” is about to come. I saw bits of it tonight and was appauled at Sister LameBrain abusing scriptures, participating in occult activities such as automatic handwriting, medical science fiction to give an air of credibility, add some lightening bolts for effect. The Catholic Church condemns occultism and spiritualism, which what is being portrayed here as “Catholicism”. Hollywood knows it can make lots of money by fuelling anti-Catholic bigotry and misinformation because it is already a multi-billion dollar industry.

“Harvey Weinstein of Miramax is known for such anti-Catholic movies as ‘Priest,’ ‘Butcher Boy,’ ‘Dogma,’ and ‘40 Days and 40 Nights.’ Now he has added the Venice Golden Lion winner ‘The Magdalene Sisters.’
http://www.catholicleague.org/02pre...OLICISM%20AGAIN (scroll under half way down)

Non-Catholics are also targets for Hollywood’s war on Christianity.
The anti-Protestant movie “Saved!”, is but one example. Here is a good review from a Protestant web site.
“In fact, based on this movie, one could easily get the idea that calling yourself an evangelical Christian puts you in the categories of judgmental, rude, violent, and stupid. It comes as no surprise that the credits give special thanks to George H. Smith for his book, Atheism: The Case Against God."http://www.christiananswers.net/spotlight/movies/2004/saved.html

IMHO, when any faith is a target using misinformation and falsehoods as a form of entertainment, it becomes entrenched in the mind of the public, and is erosive to our religious freedom.

Quote:

Mind you there are SOME Christians I know who have done the research and true gut wrenching soul searching who have come to the conclusion of Christianity and I can not blame them for that because they came there honestly

Great!!! For a minute there I thought you had a closed mind!!

Quote:

it is they ones who take faith for granted the ones who have never seen the dark side of the world who have never looked death straight in the eyes and told it to fuck off the ones who have never even looked out side their box never tested their faith (oh god says not to do that for that shows lack of faith) but I ask what good is your faith if you have never strayed from it to truly know gods love and forgiveness from a hard core extreme? In my opinion its worth nothing.

In my opinion it’s not faith, and you have every right to question such a “faith”. Faith will pass any test if it’s true faith. If faith is born from emotionalism, then emotionalism will kill it.

Quote:

I sit here a solitary man, doing the best that I can. I am not a Christian I have renounced my faith I have read too much to beLIEve that the Christian model of God is the true God (if God even exists) I am on a quest for truth.

Good. Keep up the quest. What you have renounced is not Christianity anyway, IMHO.

Quote:

if you are wondering I still do go to church (only because I am forced to due to my living situation) but really as of late the church that I am going to has had this "reasons to believe" series and the more I listen the more its like "reasons not to believe"

Copy my questions in the “Bible College Exam” thread, and take it to church. It will annoy the hell out of them. Ask me for the other 30 questions I have that they won't like!

Quote:

Now don't get me wrong here... I believe that IF there is a heaven that Christianity is a viable way to get there but I don't think that it is the only way not by a long shot.

Jesus is the only way to the Father, but it’s not for us and our puny minds and opinions of verses that dictate to Jesus how He exercises his authority as to who goes and who doesn’t. Anyone who follows the law of freedom set forth by Moses, taught by Jesus and explained by St. Paul can get to heaven, and that is not confined to card carrying church members. And salvation is not confined to following evangelical slogans that are not even in the bible, so you are right.

Job was a Babylonian, not a Jew and the bible says he was just (Job 1:1) Go figure.

Quote:

So like I said I stand here a solitary man doing the very best that I can. My first and only priority is to myself, my wife, and my 2 daughters. No more no less.

That is sufficient soil for seeds to take root. Don’t spurn the water and light. Call you dad on fathers day.

Faith and truth. Pick one, and I will elaborate.

[no_fixd_address]

I see your dilemna. You can't honor your father because you see the plasticity of Protestantism, and you have grown to reject Christianity in general because your father is a theologian. Hhhmmm...

Unrealistic expectations are demanded on Protestant ministers children, which is one reason why most of them are all screwed up. I would suggest you learn a few things about Catholicism, and challenge your father about his phony theology using that, instead of atheism. Atheism is too easy to refute. Catholicism cannot be refuted. Besides, it’s politically incorrect and extremely annoying to Protestant family members.

Quote:

Have you ever seen the movie "Saved"? That movie pretty much sums up every thing I dislike about Christians their presumption their arrogance their self-righteous attitude.

I totally agree

I am sure more fallout and comments about the anti-Catholic mini-series “Revelations” is about to come. I saw bits of it tonight and was appauled at Sister LameBrain abusing scriptures, participating in occult activities such as automatic handwriting, medical science fiction to give an air of credibility, add some lightening bolts for effect. The Catholic Church condemns occultism and spiritualism, which what is being portrayed here as “Catholicism”. Hollywood knows it can make lots of money by fuelling anti-Catholic bigotry and misinformation because it is already a multi-billion dollar industry.

“Harvey Weinstein of Miramax is known for such anti-Catholic movies as ‘Priest,’ ‘Butcher Boy,’ ‘Dogma,’ and ‘40 Days and 40 Nights.’ Now he has added the Venice Golden Lion winner ‘The Magdalene Sisters.’
http://www.catholicleague.org/02pre...OLICISM%20AGAIN (scroll under half way down)

Non-Catholics are also targets for Hollywood’s war on Christianity.
The anti-Protestant movie “Saved!”, is but one example. Here is a good review from a Protestant web site.
“In fact, based on this movie, one could easily get the idea that calling yourself an evangelical Christian puts you in the categories of judgmental, rude, violent, and stupid. It comes as no surprise that the credits give special thanks to George H. Smith for his book, Atheism: The Case Against God."http://www.christiananswers.net/spotlight/movies/2004/saved.html

IMHO, when any faith is a target using misinformation and falsehoods as a form of entertainment, it becomes entrenched in the mind of the public, and is erosive to our religious freedom.

Quote:

Mind you there are SOME Christians I know who have done the research and true gut wrenching soul searching who have come to the conclusion of Christianity and I can not blame them for that because they came there honestly

Great!!! For a minute there I thought you had a closed mind!!

Quote:

it is they ones who take faith for granted the ones who have never seen the dark side of the world who have never looked death straight in the eyes and told it to fuck off the ones who have never even looked out side their box never tested their faith (oh god says not to do that for that shows lack of faith) but I ask what good is your faith if you have never strayed from it to truly know gods love and forgiveness from a hard core extreme? In my opinion its worth nothing.

In my opinion it’s not faith, and you have every right to question such a “faith”. Faith will pass any test if it’s true faith. If faith is born from emotionalism, then emotionalism will kill it.

Quote:

I sit here a solitary man, doing the best that I can. I am not a Christian I have renounced my faith I have read too much to beLIEve that the Christian model of God is the true God (if God even exists) I am on a quest for truth.

Good. Keep up the quest. What you have renounced is not Christianity anyway, IMHO.

Quote:

if you are wondering I still do go to church (only because I am forced to due to my living situation) but really as of late the church that I am going to has had this "reasons to believe" series and the more I listen the more its like "reasons not to believe"

Copy my questions in the “Bible College Exam” thread, and take it to church. It will annoy the hell out of them. Ask me for the other 30 questions I have that they won't like!

Quote:

Now don't get me wrong here... I believe that IF there is a heaven that Christianity is a viable way to get there but I don't think that it is the only way not by a long shot.

Jesus is the only way to the Father, but it’s not for us and our puny minds and opinions of verses that dictate to Jesus how He exercises his authority as to who goes and who doesn’t. Anyone who follows the law of freedom set forth by Moses, taught by Jesus and explained by St. Paul can get to heaven, and that is not confined to card carrying church members. And salvation is not confined to following evangelical slogans that are not even in the bible, so you are right again.
Job was a Babylonian, not a Jew and the bible says he was a just man.(Job 1:1) Go figure.

Quote:

So like I said I stand here a solitary man doing the very best that I can. My first and only priority is to myself, my wife, and my 2 daughters. No more no less.

That is sufficient soil for seeds to take root. Don’t spurn the water and light. Call you dad on fathers day.

Faith and truth. Pick one, and I will elaborate.

[Ana4Stapp]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Anarkist)

I forgot to mention as well I was forced to believe because of who my father is and was. He is an ordained minister and he is a professor and has his doctorate in theology.


ANARKIST
aka
Jester

So, that's your point...you were forced to believe it.Force someone to anything is the worst thing parents can do ...

By the way, Jester, you always have the right to voice your opinions here, saying you believe in God or not, have a religion or not,(I'm not a very religious person too but I"m trying to understand some religions points and people here are really helping me) the only thing you should not to do is atack other people religion, or insulting them... cause this behaviour only shows immaturity.
I think this time you are sincere...

[uncertaindrumer]

Jester/anarkist I never had a problem with your arguments, it was when you started insulting people I got ticked.

I am happy you are back and glad you are still open to discussion. This is what I recommend, do with it what you will:

You have obviously researched the Gospels from an atheistic point of view. Why don't you research them like you want to believe in Christianity, even if you don't? That way, you at least have balanced sources.

I have seen far too many of the Christians of the type you talk about even think about arguing that point. But there are also good sincere Christians. There are evil gnostics and there are good gnostics. Or at least, gnostics attempting to be good. The same is true for any cultural or religious group. There are good and bad poeple.

For instance, the Catholic Church has about 1.1 Billion members... Guess what. Most of them are not even really CATHOLIC. I mean, so many Catholics believe in abortion it is not even funny. Whether or not you agree with abortion is besides the point. These people are not DOING what the Church says is right. So obviously, in other matters, they are not exactly inclined to try to be very Christian.

I am going to try and assemble some works, sources, etc. for why I believe the Gospels ARE historically valid, but it might take some time, so try not to lose patience with me, lol

And also, if you and your dad have arguments (do you?) argue not from an atheistic perspective but from a Catholic persepctive, for a few reasons.

1) It is easier

2) If you are arguing from a side that you might not even believe, you still at least learn more about both sides in the argument

3) It will be fun to give your dad a good thwomping, won't it?

Anyway, I am pleased you have returned, and I certainly harbor no hard feelings, I hope you don't.

[Lunar Shadow]

you see uncirtain that is one problem I have with the Chatholics. I see abortion as a political issue not a religous one there for the church should not be telling their parishoners how to think on the matter so that people may come to their own opinion on the issue.

as far as arguing from an athiest stand point... well lets just say I use typical apologist stratagies (my father is anlso an apologist) I take whatever argument is easiest to counter what my father is saying, that and it really pisses him off when I keep using different beliefs to counter him.

I am just so tired of it all I don't even know why I bother arguing noone listens they are all to set in their ways it not like I am tring to save anyone here the only thing to be saved from is pointless sacrifice, time wasted, and so on.

just let it be know that I do have respect for my father he does know his shit he has been doing what he's been doing fo like 16-20 years now(sitting here in his office surrounded by at least 5,000 books on religion)




ANARKIST
aka
Jester

[uncertaindrumer]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Anarkist)

you see uncirtain that is one problem I have with the Chatholics. I see abortion as a political issue not a religous one there for the church should not be telling their parishoners how to think on the matter so that people may come to their own opinion on the issue.

as far as arguing from an athiest stand point... well lets just say I use typical apologist stratagies (my father is anlso an apologist) I take whatever argument is easiest to counter what my father is saying, that and it really pisses him off when I keep using different beliefs to counter him.

I am just so tired of it all I don't even know why I bother arguing noone listens they are all to set in their ways it not like I am tring to save anyone here the only thing to be saved from is pointless sacrifice, time wasted, and so on.

just let it be know that I do have respect for my father he does know his shit he has been doing what he's been doing fo like 16-20 years now(sitting here in his office surrounded by at least 5,000 books on religion)




ANARKIST
aka
Jester

No, abortion is a moral issue Jester. If you do NOT believe it is murder, it is fine, it is convenient, everyone is happy. If you DO believe it is murder--which the Church does--then we must do EVERYTHING in our power to abolish it, destroy it, and make sure no more innocent chidlren are slaughtered by it.

You personally can disagree that it is murder--wlthough I would strongly hope otherwise--but if it IS murder, it is VERY hard to say that we should just leave it to politics. Unless you think murder should be legalized as well.

[JulieCitySlicker]

I had those same feelings in my late teens early twenties that you are feeling now Jester. I was forced to go to church,believe in God,ect. at a young age I had religion crammed down my throat my entire growing up at my parent's home. I went through several years of my life mad at the world,Including my family, God,Everyone!! Looking back at it now,I'm learning to be my own person and to find things out for myself,and you know what,I'm not bitter about it now or angry because I was able to find out on my own that I can't make it through this life without God being there. Nothing else even comes close to feeling His love and just knowing that He is there watching over me,keeping me safe.

[Lunar Shadow]

Quote: (Originally Posted by uncertaindrumer)

No, abortion is a moral issue Jester. If you do NOT believe it is murder, it is fine, it is convenient, everyone is happy. If you DO believe it is murder--which the Church does--then we must do EVERYTHING in our power to abolish it, destroy it, and make sure no more innocent chidlren are slaughtered by it.

You personally can disagree that it is murder--wlthough I would strongly hope otherwise--but if it IS murder, it is VERY hard to say that we should just leave it to politics. Unless you think murder should be legalized as well.

Ok uncertain I have a question for you ok you ready for this?

You’re married to some one you love dearly she is 6 1/2 months pregnant. The Doctor tells you that there is a 99% chance she will die during the birth and that there is an 82% chance the baby won't survive the birth either. What do you do? Do you get an abortion? Do you sit there and watch you wife die and hope your baby survives? It is an honest question and I really don't want the answer that you would just pray about it because that is a given.

for that matter what would any of you do?


ANARKIST
aka
Jester

[Lunar Shadow]

Quote: (Originally Posted by JulieCitySlicker)

I had those same feelings in my late teens early twenties that you are feeling now Jester. I was forced to go to church,believe in God,ect. at a young age I had religion crammed down my throat my entire growing up at my parent's home. I went through several years of my life mad at the world,Including my family, God,Everyone!! Looking back at it now,I'm learning to be my own person and to find things out for myself,and you know what,I'm not bitter about it now or angry because I was able to find out on my own that I can't make it through this life without God being there. Nothing else even comes close to feeling His love and just knowing that He is there watching over me,keeping me safe.

I am glad that things worked out for you Julie but you of all people should know that this is a path I must walk alone this is not something some one can just tell me the answer to. Ones spirituality and personal beliefs are not things that can simply be dictated by a person, minister, or book. It is a never ending journey and the day you stop progressing on your journey is the day you just stop giving a damn. Don’t ever get comfortable in your beliefs because if you do you have gotten lazy and you have stopped you growth in what ever direction it may be. (Damn I am starting to feel like a fortune cookie )

[uncertaindrumer]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Anarkist)

Ok uncertain I have a question for you ok you ready for this?

You’re married to some one you love dearly she is 6 1/2 months pregnant. The Doctor tells you that there is a 99% chance she will die during the birth and that there is an 82% chance the baby won't survive the birth either. What do you do? Do you get an abortion? Do you sit there and watch you wife die and hope your baby survives? It is an honest question and I really don't want the answer that you would just pray about it because that is a given.

for that matter what would any of you do?


ANARKIST
aka
Jester

First off, there are no cases that I know of (and here's one for you, my Dad's is a Professor in medicine for twenty year,s so he knows his stuff!) in which this is a possibility, especially considering that almost all of the diseases that DO do something like this are never that sure, and usually are known about before pregnancy. But I'll take your example.

No, you do not abort the baby. That is MURDER. Would you kill a thirty year old innocent man to keep your wife from dying? It is the same situation to me.

[JulieCitySlicker]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Anarkist)

I am glad that things worked out for you Julie but you of all people should know that this is a path I must walk alone this is not something some one can just tell me the answer to. Ones spirituality and personal beliefs are not things that can simply be dictated by a person, minister, or book. It is a never ending journey and the day you stop progressing on your journey is the day you just stop giving a damn. Don’t ever get comfortable in your beliefs because if you do you have gotten lazy and you have stopped you growth in what ever direction it may be. (Damn I am starting to feel like a fortune cookie )

I know that this is something you need to find for yourself,I was there once I just hope that someday you find out the answers to what your looking for and acheive whatever goals you have set for yourself.