Atheism growing in America

[Lunar Shadow]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Justify)

I believe that Atheism is growing in America. I think it is a sad fact and will continue to happen. We Christians have allowed to happen by not standing up for our rights. We have allowed God to be taken out of our Schools. We allowed the voice of one Atheist to outway the voice of many who believe in God. It will continue to happen until Jesus comes back to this earth. It will be like it was in the days of Sodom and Gomorrah. I don't think we are too far off from that.

This country does not allow for your god to be in public schools. you are taking a cryptic book the wrong way and are making prdictions that will never come true. Jesus said to his followers "There are some here who will not taste death with out seeing my return" I hate to break it to you but Jesus was either wrong or lying because all of thoes people present are long dead. If Jesus was wrong then he can't be god and is a false prophet. if he was lying then he was a sinner. take yoru pick.

Quote:

There is one thing that I don't think most Atheist understand. Atheist don't seem to understand that they must have faith to believe that the earth and universe came from nothing. Just as I must have faith that God has always been. To me it is easier to believe that God created it all than to believe it came from nowhere. At some point everything had to have a beginning. I see the beauty all around me. Beautiful Sunsets and Sunrises. Beautiful flowers and trees. Mountains and Valleys. Even the beauty of a woman. I can't imagine all that just coming from nowhere. All that just appearing and coming from some single cell organism billions of years ago.

Well most Atheists don't have magial thinking like say most Christians do. we don't believe the world was created nor do we believe that matter was created because that is impossible (not imporbable) matter can niether be created or destroyed. The universe has always been weather it be a solid state universe or an ocsilating universe or even the cosmic foam model...it has always been and will always be. This is why Christianity is so poisonous to the mind it makes you think emotionally rather that logically or rationally or empirically.

Quote:

Where do you think your morals came from. You think as a human we just automatically have some inherent since of morality. Why then are we are the only species on the planet that has this since of morality. How come animals do not have a conscience. Could it be that it is because we were created in the image of God? Where does it come from if it is not from God? That is an impossible question to answer.

you haven't heard anything I have said have you? Altruism is a selfless act and to preform a selfless act the has to be some sort of morality. Animals exibit altruistic behavior as do humans. it is fallasious to think that if there is a god he is resposible for morality and since you have demonstrated you can't think logically then I guess the concept is out of your grasp.

[Lunar Shadow]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Justify)

I think he says this because we as Christians believe "once saved, always saved". If God truely convicted you and showed you that Jesus is the Son of God and forgives all sins then you would have never left. When we are saved then we are given the holy spirit and the spirit is always with you. Some people believe they were once saved because they believed it at the time in their minds. The belief cannot just rest in your mind. Even the devil believes that Jesus was the Son of God. I'm not comparing you to the devil by any means so please don't take it that way. All I think he is trying to say is that if you are an Atheist now then you were never truely a Christian. Being a Christian means that you were saved by God through Jesus Christ. It doesn't just mean that you went to a Christian Church and believed it at the time. You have to pray that God will come into your heart and believe that Jesus died for you sins in order to be a Christian. If you never did that then you were never a Christian.

I know what he is saying it is this mentality that makes Christianity cultish. let me break it down for you.... I was born to an ordained minister and professor of theology (my father) and to a missionary kid (my mother) I grew up in the church and accepted Jesus as my saviour at about the age of 4 or 5 (by the model of confessing with my mouth and believeing in my heart, keep in mind there was a time when you believed in Santa Clause but you no longer do... does that mean that you never did believe? no it doesn't). I was active in the church and it ministries for well over a decade through Jr high and high school and was at church every Sunday and Wednesday. About a little over a year ago I started to educate myself in church history and deep study of doctrine and such and their origins. The things I found made me come to the logical conclusion that Christianity wasn't olny a false religion but more so that it was impossible to come from god at all.... I studied further studying science logic and reason (among other things) and came to the conclusion that not only was god was improbable but much rather impossible. I came to this conclusion because of the sheer fact that there is no real evidence for his existance. And any word games or mental gymnastics that you try to give proof is ilogical (give me one of your proofs and I will explain why.) now if you want to have an honest convertation involving facts rather than belief and emotionalism than we can talk I would be more than happy to teach you about logic and reason...


Uncertain Drummer is a logical person (for the most part) and he still believes in god and I can't really condemn him for that because he come to his conclusion even after leaning science and logic and he still believes in god. So he for the most part came to his conclusion honestly (for him not me) good for him if he can believe that there is a god I really can get mad at him for that. I disagree with him on his interpretations greatly but at least he and I can have intelegent (for the most part) debates about the subject.

[Justify]

Lunar,
It seems that all you can do is throw out hate speech against me and my beliefs. What makes Christianity so poisonous? Whether you believe in God or not you have to see that Christianity teaches a good way to live. My point earlier was that you have to have faith to believe what you believe. You have to have faith to believe that matter somehow always existed even though everything around us points to their being a beginning and an end to everything. I choose to have faith that there is a God who created it all. I am a very logical person. You believe that what you have spouted out is logical but to others it sounds ridiculous. It is ludicrous for you to think because of a year of studies that you have it all figured out. You want proof that God exist but you don't have proof of what you believe. Science has never been able to prove evolution. Guess why, because it cannot be recreated. Science cannot prove your beliefs. So your beliefs are based purely off of other peoples theories which means you have to have faith that what you believe is right. So you, just as I, choose to believe in something that you cannot see or "prove". Just because you choose not to believe in Christianity does not mean it is illogical. For your sake I hope you are correct. If you are correct when I die I will never know any different. If you are incorrect when you die it will be all too late for you to change your mind.

Also if you want proof that Jesus actually existed and do not think that the writings of Paul and the other books of the bible are proof enough maybe you should look into other writings of the times such as the writings of:
Cornelius Tacitus - 1st century Roman Historian
Flavius Josephus - 1st century Jewish Historian
Suetonius - writer of that time period

Jesus did indeed exist but of course it will take faith to believe he was the Son of God.

[Lunar Shadow]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Justify)

Lunar,
It seems that all you can do is throw out hate speech against me and my beliefs. What makes Christianity so poisonous? Whether you believe in God or not you have to see that Christianity teaches a good way to live. My point earlier was that you have to have faith to believe what you believe. You have to have faith to believe that matter somehow always existed even though everything around us points to their being a beginning and an end to everything. I choose to have faith that there is a God who created it all. I am a very logical person. You believe that what you have spouted out is logical but to others it sounds ridiculous. It is ludicrous for you to think because of a year of studies that you have it all figured out. You want proof that God exist but you don't have proof of what you believe. Science has never been able to prove evolution. Guess why, because it cannot be recreated. Science cannot prove your beliefs. So your beliefs are based purely off of other peoples theories which means you have to have faith that what you believe is right. So you, just as I, choose to believe in something that you cannot see or "prove". Just because you choose not to believe in Christianity does not mean it is illogical. For your sake I hope you are correct. If you are correct when I die I will never know any different. If you are incorrect when you die it will be all too late for you to change your mind.

By what you have spouted off about evolution it is clear that you do not understand evolution let alone the meaning of the word theory.... there is a PODcast you should check out about evolution (i myself found otu that I had misconceptions about evolution). It is hosted by a scientist who uses laguage that is easy to understand so the laymen will get the concept of the theory. the PODcast is entitled EVOLUTION 101 hosted by DR Zachary Moore. here is a link to the trascripts of the show. HERE


Now to answer your question of "what makes Christianity so poisonous" it is simple I already gave an example but if you would like more ok

in most sects education is discouraged
it slpits apart families
it is judgemental (when you are commanded not to be)
just to name a few

now when you say it takes faith to buy in to what I see as correct really depends on your reference point. I approach things as "nothing is so until proven so" I.E. god, creation, or what have you.

I approach with the scientific method and when it comes down to it the scientific method is the "most correct" method we have at our disposal

I am not using hate speech I am calling it like I see it based on experiance. You say that Christianity "teaches a good way to live." yeah uhhuh sure

Killing a child who disobeys
saying it is ok to sell your daughter in to slavery
advocating genocide
glorifiing murder
advocating murder for breaking "the sabbath"
Jesus curses [the inhabitants of] three cities who were not sufficiently impressed with his great works.
"They shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up."
just to name a few

yeah sign me up there that is a real good way to live

there was nothing logical about the argument you first posed and judging by the current post I would say that you don't have a good grasp of logic.

I wouldn't have to explain what a fallacy is if you had a grasp of logic. but thats ok you can keep telling yourself that.

[SecretWeapon]

Justify, I respect what you are trying to do here, but take it from me, it's a lost cause. Lunar Shadow will never change.
He badmouths everyone who doesn't agree with him, because in his world he's right because he says so. Trust me on this one, I put up with weeks of him being hateful and rude to me
all for nothing. He still the same pain in the ass he's always been since I've known him. He's just mainly hanging around this forum for attention, just ignore him and maybe he'll go away.

[Justify]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Lunar Shadow)

By what you have spouted off about evolution it is clear that you do not understand evolution let alone the meaning of the word theory....

Quote: (Originally Posted by Lunar Shadow)

now when you say it takes faith to buy in to what I see as correct really depends on your reference point. I approach things as "nothing is so until proven so" I.E. god, creation, or what have you.

I approach with the scientific method and when it comes down to it the scientific method is the "most correct" method we have at our disposal

I think it is you and not I who does not understand the meaning of the word theory. A theory is not a fact. A theory is an idea or a group of ideas that try to explain or interpret a fact. Evolution has never been proven. To prove it the scientific method would have to be applied. But the scientific method cannot be applied can it. Was anyone there to witness the birth or mankind, the earth and the universe? No. Can evolution be reproduced? No. So where does that leave you? You must have FAITH in evolution. But let’s just say for the point of argument that Evolution is the way we came about. Couldn’t God have created the process of Evolution? The fact that you think matter always was doesn’t disprove God either. There is no difference in you believing that matter has always been and me believing that God has always been. It seems you atheists like to always say “the burden of proof is on those who believe in God”. It sounds like a backdoor answer to me.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Lunar Shadow)

Now to answer your question of "what makes Christianity so poisonous" it is simple I already gave an example but if you would like more ok

in most sects education is discouraged
it slpits apart families
it is judgemental (when you are commanded not to be)
just to name a few

you seem to always ask Christians to “prove” things
-I say to you prove where Christianity / The Bible teaches us to discourage education. You cannot because The Bible does not discourage it. Certainly there are individuals of all faiths, including atheism, that discourage it but you cannot take the views of one and say they are the views of the many.

-Prove how it slpits apart families.
Human beings may split apart families with their sin and wrong doing but in what way does Christianity have an affect on this? 1 Peter 3:7 says “Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect” Exodus 20:12 teaches children to honor their father and mother. Many verses tell us not to lust and not to commit adultery. How do these teachings harm a marriage?

-Prove Christianity it is judgmental
Some Christians may be judgmental but that does not mean Christianity teaches us to be judgmental. I can hate what you do or believe but that doesn’t mean I hate you. What did Jesus say about this? “Let those without sin cast the first stone.” “love our neighbor as ourself”. Also in Romans 12:17 it says “Do not repay anyone evil for evil.” You’re right I’m starting to see the big picture now. Those are terrible teachings to abide by. What must I have been thinking? [sarcasm]

You have quoted the wrongs of the individual not the wrongs of Christianity. God gave us all free will. We all sin and sin has consequences i.e. Failed marriages or split families, being judgmental toward one another… etc. Let me throw out a word to you that you seem to like to use. Illogical…. As in you are being illogical by pointing out wrong doings of man to explain the wrongs of Christianity.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Lunar Shadow)

I am not using hate speech I am calling it like I see it based on experiance. You say that Christianity "teaches a good way to live." yeah uhhuh sure

Killing a child who disobeys
saying it is ok to sell your daughter in to slavery
advocating genocide
glorifiing murder
advocating murder for breaking "the sabbath"
Jesus curses [the inhabitants of] three cities who were not sufficiently impressed with his great works.
"They shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up."
just to name a few

yeah sign me up there that is a real good way to live

I don’t pretend to have all the answers to the bible. You have chosen to cherry pick topics from the bible that you think fits your argument eventhough you don't have a grasp of the actual meaning of those topics. I don’t claim to know it all but I’ll address what you listed above.

-When you speak about killing a child who disobeys I assume you are referring to this verse:
Exodus 21:15
And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.

This verse is taken from the same chapter as this Ex 21:12 which states “He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.”

I don’t think this reads as if it is a child. This reads as if it is an adult. And “smiteth” when translated means to strike. They are talking about an adult who physically abuses his parents. Not a child who “disobeys” their parents.

-advocating murder for breaking "the sabbath"
You seem to be doing a lot of misquoting which says to me you haven’t actually studied the bible. I believe you are probably referring to:
Ex 31:14 “'Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people.”

It doesn’t actually say if you “break” the Sabbath you will be put to death. It says if you desecrate the Sabbath. It also makes a point to say anyone who does work on that day will be cut of from his people. I believe this point was made to show the difference between working (and other not so serious offenses against the Sabbath) and actually desecrating the Sabbath. This was God’s law for his people at that time. Jesus was ask about the Sabbath by the Pharisees. He told them in Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath." Which I take to mean that the Sabbath was not a duty to God but a gift from God as a day of rest.


-Jesus curses [the inhabitants of] three cities who were not sufficiently impressed with his great works.

Matthew 11:21
Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Matthew 11:23
And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

I don’t know what your problem is with this. Jesus, in these three cities, performed miracles that proved that without a doubt he is the Son of God. Yet they were such fools to ignore it even when done right before them. If Jesus stood before you today and performed unbelievable miracles would you be like these people or would you be forced to believe that there is a God and that Jesus is the Son of God? Jesus cursed these people because if these miracles couldn’t convince them then nothing would. It seems these people would have been destined to hell even without him cursing them.


-Hosea 13:16
Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

Sometimes things we may view as evil must happen for the greater good. Many innocent people were killed during World War II but it was for the greater good of taking an evil man from power. In this case, I think, God allowed this to happen so Israel would see their error and come back to Him.

And as for:
advocating genocide
glorifiing murder

Please explain this? I see this nowhere in the Bible. I’m not going to allow you to get away with stating things without giving a reference.


I would be a fool to say I understand everything God does. But you seem to have all the answers don’t you…. from that (oh so enlightening) year you spent studying the answers to how the universe and humanity all began.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Lunar Shadow)

there was nothing logical about the argument you first posed and judging by the current post I would say that you don't have a good grasp of logic.

I wouldn't have to explain what a fallacy is if you had a grasp of logic. but thats ok you can keep telling yourself that.

I believe you like to throw the word illogical around because you think it makes you sound superior. A child thinks his parents are illogical too… until he becomes an adult and understands things from their point of view. Just because you believe what I say is illogical does not make it so. It only means you haven’t the capability of understanding it.

Also you throw out a lot of Atheist talking points in this post. Things you stated can be found all over web on web sites that list arguments for atheist to use against Christians. You should try thinking for yourself sometime.

[Justify]

Now I have a question for you. SecretWeapon had a good point about your post that you chose to ignore:

Quote: (Originally Posted by Lunar Shadow)

You point that morality is non existand in animals isn't based on anything scientific look you see I can do it with humans


the canables in south america
the polyigamy in the middle east
the wife swaping in tribal culture
the inscest in afican trabal culture
the legalazation of drugs in amsterdam
the muders in Oakanld, ca
look at how many prisoners are in the justice system
The killing of born female children in China.

You have stated before that there is some “Natural Moral Law”. How can that be true and your quote above be true at the same time? Man cannot be inherently good and inherently evil at the same time. Which is it? Where does evil come from? Do you believe that it exists? What gives human life value if what you believe is true?

Also, about faith… Do you ever have faith in anything? If so, how can you? You have stated that you need proof. You use faith everyday but don’t even realize it. This is probably a point that you will call “illogical” in the most sophisticated sounding voice you can muster up.

[Lunar Shadow]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Justify)

Now I have a question for you. SecretWeapon had a good point about your post that you chose to ignore:


You have stated before that there is some “Natural Moral Law”. How can that be true and your quote above be true at the same time? Man cannot be inherently good and inherently evil at the same time. Which is it? Where does evil come from? Do you believe that it exists? What gives human life value if what you believe is true?

Also, about faith… Do you ever have faith in anything? If so, how can you? You have stated that you need proof. You use faith everyday but don’t even realize it. This is probably a point that you will call “illogical” in the most sophisticated sounding voice you can muster up.

The comment made to Secret Weapon was made to tear down his argument because his argument was cherry picking instances so I showed that it can be done any way you slice it.... it is called confirmation bias (a fallacy) doctoring the facts to fit your idea.

I made no assurtion that Man is iherently good nor did I state that man was iherently evil I said that there is an inherent morality weather people chose to live up to that morality is where free will comes in.

when it comes to faith.... if I say drive my car one day and it is in proper working order I guess that you could say that I have faith that it will be in working order the next day based on prior experiance. It is a logical place to operate from make a judgement based on prior individual experiance.

[Lunar Shadow]

Quote: (Originally Posted by justify)

And as for:
advocating genocide
glorifiing murder

Please explain this? I see this nowhere in the Bible. I’m not going to allow you to get away with stating things without giving a reference.

lets see genocide oh um... hmmmm oh yes when the isrialites were going in to the "promise land" they were commanded by their all loving god to kill all the men women and children and to kill fetuses (so much for the pro life argument) now yes depending on the city god would some times say take the women as plunder for yourselves did you forget this?

and it glorifies these killings trying to justify them by saying its gods will and such (some all loving god) I especially love when it says you should be "joyful" when "dashing infants heads agianst rocks" (I can provide a reference if you'd like) seriously the thing that confuses me is why christians are so up tight about their children watching movies or tv that involves murder, violence, nudity, sex, incest, rape, gang rape, and so on WHEN IT IS ALL IN YOUR HOLY BOOK! is it just me or do I see some sort of twisted logic to justify this?

[Lunar Shadow]

Quote: (Originally Posted by justify)

you seem to always ask Christians to “prove” things
-I say to you prove where Christianity / The Bible teaches us to discourage education. You cannot because The Bible does not discourage it. Certainly there are individuals of all faiths, including atheism, that discourage it but you cannot take the views of one and say they are the views of the many.

I never said the bible teaches such although given the time I am sure I could find something that would give the basis for the belief that some sects of christianity believe.

Quote:

-Prove how it slpits apart families.
Human beings may split apart families with their sin and wrong doing but in what way does Christianity have an affect on this? 1 Peter 3:7 says “Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect” Exodus 20:12 teaches children to honor their father and mother. Many verses tell us not to lust and not to commit adultery. How do these teachings harm a marriage?

Jesus said to follow me you must first hate your mother father brothers and sister. (talk about family values)

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-Prove Christianity it is judgmental
Some Christians may be judgmental but that does not mean Christianity teaches us to be judgmental. I can hate what you do or believe but that doesn’t mean I hate you. What did Jesus say about this? “Let those without sin cast the first stone.” “love our neighbor as ourself”. Also in Romans 12:17 it says “Do not repay anyone evil for evil.” You’re right I’m starting to see the big picture now. Those are terrible teachings to abide by. What must I have been thinking? [sarcasm]

did I say that Christianity teaches to be judgemental? no on the contrary I stated as follows

Quote: (Originally Posted by Lunar Shadow)

it is judgemental (when you are commanded not to be)

I said that many Christians ARE judgemental in spite of what their book teaches or did you just miss that? because if you can miss interpret what I say than maybe you are misinturpreting the bible wich you hold dear.

Quote:

You have quoted the wrongs of the individual not the wrongs of Christianity. God gave us all free will. We all sin and sin has consequences i.e. Failed marriages or split families, being judgmental toward one another… etc. Let me throw out a word to you that you seem to like to use. Illogical…. As in you are being illogical by pointing out wrong doings of man to explain the wrongs of Christianity.

ahhh yes the christian apologetic justification the free will scape goat. (scape goating is a fallacy) I didn't say that every thing that I stated was the teachings of doma or doctrine I listed of things wrong with christianity because last time I check if you are a chirstian (or claim to be) than you are a part of christianity.

[Lunar Shadow]

Quote: (Originally Posted by justify)

I think it is you and not I who does not understand the meaning of the word theory. A theory is not a fact. A theory is an idea or a group of ideas that try to explain or interpret a fact. Evolution has never been proven. To prove it the scientific method would have to be applied. But the scientific method cannot be applied can it. Was anyone there to witness the birth or mankind, the earth and the universe? No. Can evolution be reproduced? No. So where does that leave you? You must have FAITH in evolution. But let’s just say for the point of argument that Evolution is the way we came about. Couldn’t God have created the process of Evolution? The fact that you think matter always was doesn’t disprove God either. There is no difference in you believing that matter has always been and me believing that God has always been. It seems you atheists like to always say “the burden of proof is on those who believe in God”. It sounds like a backdoor answer to me.

define Theory

1*a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena; "theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses"; "true in fact and theory"

2*A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.

3*A plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain natural phenomena

Now if you want to actually know how a sceintific Theory works it goes like this.... you start out with a hypotheses wich is an idea on how something works or why something does something. then you test it and test it agian and again (experement) and based on the results then you form your theory... a good theory has few assumptions and and more proven fact the stronger a theory is. now if you want to take on evolution then this one has very few assumptions and many facts in it it is probably one of the strongest theories (accepted as scientific fact). now if you want to look at your position (i.e. creation it isn't even a hypotheses). I really haven't explained how scientific theory works in lay terms but I hope something here helps.

But the whole thing of "Evolution is a theory! not a fact!" is the Battle Cry of the fundamentalist right wing who believe in a NON-SCIENCE (its not even pseudoscience) called Creation Science it is trying to fight its way in to the class room once agian contributing to the educational decline in the country... we need to teach children how to think not what to think. Because that is what is why our educational system is failing and the prime reason is because fundamentalist type are trying to cross the line and try to get religion tought in schools that is one of the reasons that everyone has misconceptions about the theory of evolution and the scientific theory for that matter.I posted a link to the Series Evolution 101 maybe you should check it out I think it is available for download on iTunes as well. maybe you sould actually check it out before you reply to this post you might learn something rather than taking the Straw Man that Christianity has created and tering ti to sherds (also a fallacy).

[SecretWeapon]

Ok, I'm sorry, I have to speak up here.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Lunar Shadow)

I never said the bible teaches such although given the time I am sure I could find something that would give the basis for the belief that some sects of christianity believe.

Ok, that was pathetic. Some Atheists believe that in the beginning, there was no matter, just nothingness. Then this nothingness condensed by gravity into a single, tiny spot; and it decided to explode.

Does this mean that it aplies to what you believe? No. In pointing out
absurdities in other groups, you fail by all means to challenge one's
own beliefs.

Quote:

Jesus said to follow me you must first hate your mother father brothers and sister. (talk about family values)

Are your arguments going to get any better? Jesus said not not love your parent's and/or siblings more than Him. The keyword in that sentence is obviously MORE.

Quote:

did I say that Christianity teaches to be judgemental? no on the contrary I stated as follows
I said that many Christians ARE judgemental in spite of what their book teaches or did you just miss that? because if you can miss interpret what I say than maybe you are misinturpreting the bible wich you hold dear.

Don't lump all Christians into a group (even "professed" ones).
SOME athiests want to kill unborn babies legally. (BTW, if a fetus can be killed, then it's obviously alive, and that's murder) Does that mean that I can judge you by them? No.

(I don't know your position on abortion, but I don't try do attack you just because you're an atheist and some atheists disagree with me, that's pathetic and would only show that I had no decent argument. Unfortunatly, that's the path you decided to take in this conversation.)

Quote:

ahhh yes the christian apologetic justification the free will scape goat. (scape goating is a fallacy) I didn't say that every thing that I stated was the teachings of doma or doctrine I listed of things wrong with christianity because last time I check if you are a chirstian (or claim to be) than you are a part of christianity.

So you're saying that you don't believe in free will? If you went to court
for being white (asuming you are) would you say "Yes I'm guilty if wrong
just because I'm white" ? I don't think so. You're being racist against Christianity(if you will) and that's a pathetic argument.

Quote:

3*A plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain natural phenomena

This is the only one out of the three that allows Evolutionary Theory, and guess what? It does the same thing Creationism does. They both answer one phenomena with another untestable phenomena.

Quote:

and it glorifies these killings trying to justify them by saying its gods will and such (some all loving god) I especially love when it says you should be "joyful" when "dashing infants heads agianst rocks" (I can provide a reference if you'd like) seriously the thing that confuses me is why christians are so up tight about their children watching movies or tv that involves murder, violence, nudity, sex, incest, rape, gang rape, and so on WHEN IT IS ALL IN YOUR HOLY BOOK! is it just me or do I see some sort of twisted logic to justify this?

Philippians 4:8 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

8)Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.

Yeah, and how many times after God gave Isreal the 10 commandments,
which included "do not kill" did God send Isreal into war? I have no idea.
Dozens of times, to say the least. The point is that sometimes war is
inevetable. Do you believe that war can sometimes (in certain extreme conditions) be justified? Do you also believe that killing is generaly "bad"?
If you do then you are in the same boat.

The Bible says

(Deuteronomy)
16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy [a] them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the LORD your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God.

and

Deuteronomy 30 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



Deuteronomy 30
Prosperity After Turning to the LORD
1 When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come upon you and you take them to heart wherever the LORD your God disperses you among the nations, 2 and when you and your children return to the LORD your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, 3 then the LORD your God will restore your fortunes [a] and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. 4 Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the LORD your God will gather you and bring you back. 5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your fathers, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers. 6 The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live. 7 The LORD your God will put all these curses on your enemies who hate and persecute you. 8 You will again obey the LORD and follow all his commands I am giving you today. 9 Then the LORD your God will make you most prosperous in all the work of your hands and in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your land. The LORD will again delight in you and make you prosperous, just as he delighted in your fathers, 10 if you obey the LORD your God and keep his commands and decrees that are written in this Book of the Law and turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Who's cherry picking now, Shadow? It seems that you are.


Genesis 6

5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.


As you of all people should know, God's only chance of mercy is through
The Messiah. God used those who pleased Him to bring about the Messiah.
(Jesus, in the Christian faith) You say that you've studied the Bible, but
these are some of the most pathetic arguments I've heard yet from you.
I know you can do better than this.

[Lunar Shadow]

are you done justify? Ok fine with me

[Lunar Shadow]

and if you are going what about me secret weapon maybe you should go back through the posts and read you got dropped a long time ago I don't even see your posts anymore you lost your audiance because you refuse to answer anything but you keep fireing question after question. I only honor questions when the person I am addressing actually answers me.

[mindstorm]

I think believing that there is no creator is just as logical or illogical as believing in creationism.
Atheist does not believe in a creator. Then there leaves 2 possible explaination for our origin of existence.
1) There was at first nothing and bang, there was something and by some forces molecules aggregate and cells were formed and they evolved into present live.

Nothing is nothing. Nothing is no force, no energy. Nil. Zil. Null. To think that something can just appear out of nothing contradicts the principles of physics. Show me you can make that happen and I'll pray to you.

2) There has always been this existence and always will be.

This theory also fails since evolution of life has been shown true and continues to be. By the control of man, so many animals have "evolved". Just check out the various breeds of farm animals, dogs etc. Those breeds/strains never existed before. If so that means there exist a time where man did not exist yet, or at one time probably not recognizable as "man". Pushing it back further in periods of time of dinasours and so on, how is it possible that "there has always been 'this' existence?"

The reason why I believe in Creationism is because of two words.
Design and Force.

For a car/computer/business or anything complex that man has build and created that works requires design, sweat, trial&error and teamwork. How does atheist explained that life or the human body which is far, far more complex and requires unbelievable coordination of the various biochemical/hormones/neural/organs parts in order to work properly is without a designer? Poof, all molecules just aggregate together and they just work?
Ilogical.

This brings us to evolution of life. The big question. What DRIVES evolution of life? Answer- the need to survive. Next question. What DRIVES this need to survive?? Why should we even want to survive? What is the driving force behind a group of cells to be of existence? or before that, a strand of DNA to propagate itself? Is a strand of DNA in a protein soup life? Probably more as just a group of chemical molecules. And how and what causes these chemicals to just WANT to propagate?? Does the chair you're sitting on wants ever want to replicate itself? After all it is also a bunch of chemicals.
The FORCE behind LIFE is the most mysterious thing ever.

The most philosophical question ever asked was by a little girl looking out of her kitchen window. "Mum, why should anything exist at all?"