Atheism growing in America

[SecretWeapon]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Lunar Shadow)

You have just admited that there is a natual moral law, Thank you for coming to you senses. now lets just say for one second here that "god" created natual moral law. There are pleanty of people who don't believe in god nor do they believe in your god but they lead moral lives. Christians believe that there are people who will never hear god but they still live a moral life why is that? it is because morality is inherent therefore the arguemnt of god is superfulous because it (morality) is built in to the system.

If you look at animals they also have moral codes weather it be chimps, bird, or bees... They ALL demonstrate altruism in one matter or another.... every animal demonstrates altruism at some point or another when they are parents therefore morality is not unique to humans it is natual and inherent, built in to the system weather your god put it there or not doen't matter because it is there and you don't have to believe in a god to be moral bacause I highly doubt that a honey bee knows who or what god is let alone ponders it on a daily basis.


now to apply Occum's Razor to the question of god.... Now Occum's Razor states that the explainations with the fewest X factors (unknows) is gonna be the most correct.

Morality (or, for the sake of argument, a sensitivity towards others)
is a system that is found inherintly in all conscious beings, a result of
a sense of awareness, a sense of value, and a sense of reciprocity.

Anacondas steal and eat helpless baby animals from their parents.
They don't mate for life, they mate with several (strange) partners
at a time.
They also have eaten their own stillborn babies.
They abandon their young at birth. (They don't eat them, because,
theoretically, instict forbids them from destroying their own race)
They die for no conscious purpose, they die because they can't help it.
(in other words, they aren't self-sacraficial)

Now you can argue that the fact they that don't eat their own young
proves a natural moral law, but that one trait is a far cry from the
"human level" of morality. The rest of their lives and actions seem
moral-less.

All carnivores kill and eat. The vast majority of the time, with no
obvious remorse.

Wolves live in a hierarchy, not moral order. The pack consists of the
Alpha-Male (father) and the Alpha Female (mother) the rest of the pack
are their children. Occasionaly, there will be straglers in the pack, but
they are at the bottom of the pecking order, they eat last, etc.
The pack members are kept together and in order by nessecity and
aggression. Normally, no pack members are allowed to mate except
the Alpha male and female.

Bees work together for a common good because, if they don't they will
all die within a very short time.

You can say that animals prove a natural moral law, but they really
don't. If I walked up and bit your leg because you ate before I did,
I'd feel really bad because I really ove-reacted because of such a
stupid thing. But wolves do it. If I went outside and took some baby
chicks out of a nest, and cooked and ate them in front of the mother
bird, I wouldn't feel very good about myself. But alot of snakes do just
that (sans cooking).

Spiders wrap up their prey in webbing and leave them there alive
until they feel like sucking the bugs guts out. Is that moral?

A certain fly will lay it's egg(or larvae) inside a fireants head and the
young fly will grow until the ants head explodes. Is that moral?

Black widow spiders will eat the male after mating with him, if he
is no longer useful for mating. Is that moral?

Chimpanzees will attack individual chimpanzees from another family
and brutally kill it. (They rip the genitals out, &c) Moral?

Yes, certain pack animals are loyal. Dogs will die for their masters/friends,
bees will die for their hives. Ants for their colonies.

But this does little more than exibit a sense of instict, which keeps their
race alive. It does not explain how humans dislike someone looking at
them without smiling, dislike being lied to, dislike half-truths, dislike
being cussed out or getting "the finger", dislike being belittled.

Quote:

now thinking about all the X factors that are required to justify god being reposible for morality...

Has to have a vested interest in the world

He created it, gave man the Bible, etc.

Quote:

Has to have an Emotional interest in the world

The Christian-Jewish God does, obviously.

Quote:

Has to be real (exist)

Christians believe Him to be.

Quote:

Has to be activly involved

Is

Quote:

(none of the are provable therefore they are X factors)

VS.

god is not responsible for morlaity in anyway
(hmmm no real X factors here)

-something else is
-nothing is

^X factors

[SecretWeapon]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Lunar Shadow)

who said Atheism is infallible truth?

You seem to be arguing pretty strongly for something you don't
believe wholeheartedly in, then.

Quote:

It is so funny how you sit there and point out all the mistakes of Atheistic Philosophy. When Christianity has been wrong just as much it is seriously the pot calling the kettle black.

Let me rephrase that:

Quote:

It is so funny how you sit there and point out all the mistakes of Christianity . When Atheistic Philosophy has been wrong just as much
it is seriously the pot calling the kettle black.

Quote:

Whats up Secret Weapon? where is your resopnse to me?? did you finally realize that also believe in Abiogenesis? mind you a different kind of Abiogenesis but still Abiogenesis none the less.

I haven't read up on that site you posted the link to. I plan to
really study abiogenesis in more detail, once I get the free time
to sit down and do so for long periods at a time, which I haven't
done yet. No, I do not believe in abiogenesis.

[Lunar Shadow]

Quote: (Originally Posted by SecretWeapon)

You seem to be arguing pretty strongly for something you don't
believe wholeheartedly in, then.


Let me rephrase that:





I haven't read up on that site you posted the link to. I plan to
really study abiogenesis in more detail, once I get the free time
to sit down and do so for long periods at a time, which I haven't
done yet. No, I do not believe in abiogenesis.

Actually you do believe in Abiogenesis it is an Axiom of Christian faith.

define Abiogenesis: "abiogenesis" n.

The supposed development of living organisms from nonliving matter. Also called autogenesis, spontaneous generation.

I.E. life form non life meaning you believe your god made life from non life therefore to unseat abiogenesis would be selfdefeating.

[Lunar Shadow]

Quote: (Originally Posted by SecretWeapon)

Morality (or, for the sake of argument, a sensitivity towards others)
is a system that is found inherintly in all conscious beings, a result of
a sense of awareness, a sense of value, and a sense of reciprocity.

Anacondas steal and eat helpless baby animals from their parents.
They don't mate for life, they mate with several (strange) partners
at a time.
They also have eaten their own stillborn babies.
They abandon their young at birth. (They don't eat them, because,
theoretically, instict forbids them from destroying their own race)
They die for no conscious purpose, they die because they can't help it.
(in other words, they aren't self-sacraficial)

Now you can argue that the fact they that don't eat their own young
proves a natural moral law, but that one trait is a far cry from the
"human level" of morality. The rest of their lives and actions seem
moral-less.

All carnivores kill and eat. The vast majority of the time, with no
obvious remorse.

Wolves live in a hierarchy, not moral order. The pack consists of the
Alpha-Male (father) and the Alpha Female (mother) the rest of the pack
are their children. Occasionaly, there will be straglers in the pack, but
they are at the bottom of the pecking order, they eat last, etc.
The pack members are kept together and in order by nessecity and
aggression. Normally, no pack members are allowed to mate except
the Alpha male and female.

Bees work together for a common good because, if they don't they will
all die within a very short time.

You can say that animals prove a natural moral law, but they really
don't. If I walked up and bit your leg because you ate before I did,
I'd feel really bad because I really ove-reacted because of such a
stupid thing. But wolves do it. If I went outside and took some baby
chicks out of a nest, and cooked and ate them in front of the mother
bird, I wouldn't feel very good about myself. But alot of snakes do just
that (sans cooking).

Spiders wrap up their prey in webbing and leave them there alive
until they feel like sucking the bugs guts out. Is that moral?

A certain fly will lay it's egg(or larvae) inside a fireants head and the
young fly will grow until the ants head explodes. Is that moral?

Black widow spiders will eat the male after mating with him, if he
is no longer useful for mating. Is that moral?

Chimpanzees will attack individual chimpanzees from another family
and brutally kill it. (They rip the genitals out, &c) Moral?

Yes, certain pack animals are loyal. Dogs will die for their masters/friends,
bees will die for their hives. Ants for their colonies.

But this does little more than exibit a sense of instict, which keeps their
race alive. It does not explain how humans dislike someone looking at
them without smiling, dislike being lied to, dislike half-truths, dislike
being cussed out or getting "the finger", dislike being belittled.

it is great to see you cherry pick to make things say what you want them to. Have you eaten meat? do you feel remorse for doing so because that Cow or Chicken was killed as well and don't say you don't eat meat because every one has at one point or another.

But ignoring all that reading through your post you obviously have no education in zoology so really there is nothign to respond to here. other than to point out that your post makes you come across as a total freaking retard.

[quote]
He created it, gave man the Bible, etc.[quote]

Unproven

Quote:

The Christian-Jewish God does, obviously.

Again Unproven just dogmatic speculation

Quote:

Christians believe Him to be.

Again Unproven just dogmatic speculation

Quote:

Is

Again Unproven just dogmatic speculation

this is really getting old you offer no proof just belief and belief is subjective


honestly secret weapon I think you need to go back to the drawing board and formulate a new plan because this faith one isn't working out for you.

[SecretWeapon]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Lunar Shadow)

it is great to see you cherry pick to make things say what you want them to. Have you eaten meat? do you feel remorse for doing so because that Cow or Chicken was killed as well and don't say you don't eat meat because every one has at one point or another.

My main point was that morality is not as existant in animals as you
say it is.

Quote:

But ignoring all that reading through your post you obviously have no education in zoology so really there is nothign to respond to here. other than to point out that your post makes you come across as a total freaking retard.

It's responses like this ^ that make me wonder why I'm carrying on a
debate about morals with someone who obviously has very few.

Quote:

Unproven

Again Unproven just dogmatic speculation

Again Unproven just dogmatic speculation

Again Unproven just dogmatic speculation

this is really getting old you offer no proof just belief and belief is subjective

Oh please forgive me almighty LS who knows everything, but cannot bring himself to enter into the beleivers mentality for one second for arguments
sake.

Quote:

honestly secret weapon I think you need to go back to the drawing board and formulate a new plan because this faith one isn't working out for you.

Why not? Because you don't see it? You realize what you're saying is that
I can't see what you see therefore I'm wrong, and you don't see what I
see, therefore I am wrong? It's amazing how you want everyone to beleive
everything you say, but when someone else comes up with an arguement
you basicaly call them an idiot and sidestep the question. I'm not the only
one who's noticed this, either.

[SecretWeapon]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Lunar Shadow)

Actually you do believe in Abiogenesis it is an Axiom of Christian faith.

define Abiogenesis: "abiogenesis" n.

The supposed development of living organisms from nonliving matter. Also called autogenesis, spontaneous generation.

I.E. life form non life meaning you believe your god made life from non life therefore to unseat abiogenesis would be selfdefeating.

Ok, changing the context of the word after it's been used is pathetic.
You know full well what I meant, so by saying what you said makes you
sound like a kindergardener.

I do not believe that life was created by the random assortment of
chemicals (in a theoretical "soup") in just the right position, and
was magicaly brought to life by some unknown energy source,
(a hypothesis which can't {or hasn't} been reproduced, so we
haven't proved that it's even possible) and then bettered itself over
millions of years by a theoretical phenomena called macroevolution. So now I, a human being sitting in this room is related to the grass in my front lawn.
And then you attack my faith.

[Lunar Shadow]

Quote: (Originally Posted by SecretWeapon)

My main point was that morality is not as existant in animals as you
say it is.

It's responses like this ^ that make me wonder why I'm carrying on a
debate about morals with someone who obviously has very few.

What? points that are true? You don't know me, you don't know what I think when it comes to morality or how I am raising my children for that matter. Who I am in a debate and who I am in the real world are 2 entirely differnt things so don't even begin to think you know be.

You point that morality is non existand in animals isn't based on anything scientific look you see I can do it with humans


the canables in south america
the polyigamy in the middle east
the wife swaping in tribal culture
the inscest in afican trabal culture
the legalazation of drugs in amsterdam
the muders in Oakanld, ca
look at how many prisoners are in the justice system
The killing of born female children in China

Its obviousthat humans have no morality at all !!!

you see Secret Weapon its easy to do so don't give me that crap that animals are with out any sence of morality (inherent morality) because you have little ground to stand on (until you gat you degree in zoology or animal psycology read a freakin book you might actually learn something that your god left out in his oh so perfect book.

Quote:

Oh please forgive me almighty LS who knows everything, but cannot bring himself to enter into the beleivers mentality for one second for arguments
sake.

you contradict yourself if I were amighty (which I am not nor do I contend to be) I would be able to do all.

regardless I was in that christain frame of mind for 20+ years so I can read it and see it how you are trying to present it but they way you are trying to present it is false or misleading, much like most apologetics (bad apologetics) from your fatih's corner I refuse to engage in the mental gymnastics of your dream world, the real world is much easier to deal with when you live in reality.

Quote:

Why not? Because you don't see it? You realize what you're saying is that
I can't see what you see therefore I'm wrong, and you don't see what I
see, therefore I am wrong? It's amazing how you want everyone to beleive
everything you say, but when someone else comes up with an arguement
you basicaly call them an idiot and sidestep the question. I'm not the only
one who's noticed this, either.

I don't sidestep questions here you have refused to answer any questions you just answer (not really) with an other question or you quote mind whit out answering so don't accuse me of side steping. do I expect everyone to believe what I say? no thats why I usually prvide a source or reference it is your responsibility to check otu the source... but if you fail to that is on you not me becasue it was a choice you made to remain ignorant to something.

I can list off things that you have never answered but ot really wouln't do any good because I know that you either refuse to answer them or just flat out CAN'T answer them so I'll just tlet you be in your little box that you have created to keep the devil out.

well you are wrong and I have provided you with the tools and links to show you why you are wrong if you chose to ignore them that is not my problem. so you can take your ball and your tantrum and go home (no really please go home).

but if anyone had earned that title of idiot it would be you from your blanant display of nonseseical posts not to mention the sheer ignorance on display when you are trying to challenge soemthing in which you know nothing about. you are on of thoes christians who thinks all they need to win an arguemnt when some one goes agianst your doctrine is prayer and a bible and a love for jesus aren't you? well I got news for you Secret Weapon education is needed here in the real world. we like to talk about things on how they actually are not the way some ancient book says they should be or say they were.

[Lunar Shadow]

Quote: (Originally Posted by SecretWeapon)

Ok, changing the context of the word after it's been used is pathetic.
You know full well what I meant, so by saying what you said makes you
sound like a kindergardener.

I do not believe that life was created by the random assortment of
chemicals (in a theoretical "soup") in just the right position, and
was magicaly brought to life by some unknown energy source,
(a hypothesis which can't {or hasn't} been reproduced, so we
haven't proved that it's even possible) and then bettered itself over
millions of years by a theoretical phenomena called macroevolution. So now I, a human being sitting in this room is related to the grass in my front lawn.
And then you attack my faith.

maybe you should learn what a whord means before you knock it. true I subscribe the the "soup theory" wich is a form of Abiogenesis but your belief in an invisable sky daddy aslo calls for a belief in Abiogenesis.......

Besides your display of the knowlage on the subject (lack there of to be exact) shows on how fraking ignorant you really are you have bought the christian pulpit spin on all of this hook line and sinker and you have no idea between truth in the thoery and a hole in your head

I don't even really have to challenge your claim on the "Soup abiogenesis" or macroevolution (wich is a made up word from the fudie right BTW) because you don't even know what they are HAHAHAHA HAHA! and all this time I thought you were faking and bulding staw men HAHAHAHAHAHA but the truth is you really have no freaking clue

[SecretWeapon]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Lunar Shadow)

What? points that are true? You don't know me, you don't know what I think when it comes to morality or how I am raising my children for that matter. Who I am in a debate and who I am in the real world are 2 entirely differnt things so don't even begin to think you know be.

I know this-

Quote:

Quote:

Besides your display of the knowlage on the subject (lack there of to be exact) shows on how fraking ignorant you really are you have bought the christian pulpit spin on all of this hook line and sinker and you have no idea between truth in the thoery and a hole in your head

Quote:

but they way you are trying to present it is false or misleading, much like most apologetics (bad apologetics) from your fatih's corner I refuse to engage in the mental gymnastics of your dream world, the real world is much easier to deal with when you live in reality.

Quote:

but if anyone had earned that title of idiot it would be you from your blanant display of nonseseical posts not to mention the sheer ignorance on display when you are trying to challenge soemthing in which you know nothing about.

Quote:

it is much more complex a theory than you make it out to be and if you are too stupid to realize that then I greatly pity you

Quote:

but until then just shut the fuck up.

Your behavior is in direct contradiction to the first line in your first
post in this thread: "Atheists put their faith in ethical behavior"
You really have been nothing but rude to me the whole time I've known
you, so I think I can make a pretty good guess as to what kind of man
you are. I have been told by other members of this site that they avoid
this whole faith/religion forum altogether because they don't like to
interact with the rude people in it, namely you.

Quote:

You point that morality is non existand in animals isn't based on anything scientific look you see I can do it with humans


the canables in south america
the polyigamy in the middle east
the wife swaping in tribal culture
the inscest in afican trabal culture
the legalazation of drugs in amsterdam
the muders in Oakanld, ca
look at how many prisoners are in the justice system
The killing of born female children in China

Its obviousthat humans have no morality at all !!!

Thank you for proving that point for me. Obviously, if there was
a natural moral law, all humans would have morals, but obviously they
don't.

Quote:

you see Secret Weapon its easy to do so don't give me that crap that animals are with out any sence of morality (inherent morality) because you have little ground to stand on (until you gat you degree in zoology or animal psycology read a freakin book you might actually learn something that your god left out in his oh so perfect book.

Are you done with your senseless babbling? If you could just quit
attacking my faith for one second and try to be scientific... but I
guess that's just too much to ask of you isn't it? As stupid as you say
I am, I've been trying to take your arguments and show why they were
wrong, but I don't go on and on and on and on about how incredibly stupid you are just because of your beliefs.

Do you have a degree in zoology? Not that I know of. I'm not hearing a
zoologists input on this, and if you are, perhaps you'd like to post it here?
No? Then quit insulting me.

Quote:

you contradict yourself if I were amighty (which I am not nor do I contend to be) I would be able to do all.

Wow. You just debunked my sarcasm. Do you feel smarter now?

Quote:

regardless I was in that christain frame of mind for 20+ years so I can read it and see it how you are trying to present it but they way you are trying to present it is false or misleading, much like most apologetics (bad apologetics) from your fatih's corner I refuse to engage in the mental gymnastics of your dream world, the real world is much easier to deal with when you live in reality.

Obviously not, because to be a christian is to believe in Christ
unconditionally and if you can lose that faith, then maybe you
were never a true christian.

Quote:

I don't sidestep questions here you have refused to answer any questions you just answer (not really) with an other question or you quote mind whit out answering so don't accuse me of side steping. do I expect everyone to believe what I say? no thats why I usually prvide a source or reference it is your responsibility to check otu the source... but if you fail to that is on you not me becasue it was a choice you made to remain ignorant to something.

you don't even know if I "check out" the source or not, so quit
accusing me of things when you have no grounds. Maybe you don't expect everyone one to believe what you say, but you sure do get pissed of when they don't.

Quote:

I can list off things that you have never answered but ot really wouln't do any good because I know that you either refuse to answer them or just flat out CAN'T answer them so I'll just tlet you be in your little box that you have created to keep the devil out.

And I'll just leave you in your little box you bought to keep God out.

Quote:

but if anyone had earned that title of idiot it would be you from your blanant display of nonseseical posts

wow very scientific, 'scientist'.

Quote:

not to mention the sheer ignorance on display when you are trying to challenge soemthing in which you know nothing about.

funny, you do the same with christianity, which you claim to know alot about.

Quote:

you are on of thoes christians who thinks all they need to win an arguemnt when some one goes agianst your doctrine is prayer and a bible and a love for jesus aren't you?

No, I'm not, if all you've gotten
out of my posts was prayer and a Bible and a love of Jesus then you are desperately blind and there's not much in your eyes but stereotypes.

Quote:

well I got news for you Secret Weapon education is needed here in the real world. we like to talk about things on how they actually are not the way some ancient book says they should be or say they were.

Education? Yes, I agree, education is very important. However truth is very hard to come by in the world of evolutionary dogma.

Quote:

maybe you should learn what a whord means before you knock it. true I subscribe the the "soup theory" wich is a form of Abiogenesis but your belief in an invisable sky daddy aslo calls for a belief in Abiogenesis.......

Maybe you should learn how to use a word in context. You know
full well what I meant when I said I don't believe in abiogenesis, and your little "heehee , you do believe in abiogenesis hahaha" crap is sickeningly juvenile.

Quote:

Besides your display of the knowlage on the subject (lack there of to be exact) shows on how fraking ignorant you really are you have bought the christian pulpit spin on all of this hook line and sinker and you have no idea between truth in the thoery and a hole in your head

If you would quit spouting out insults from that HUGE hole in your head, you just might get some people whose education exceeds yours to actually pay attention to you, and tell you that you're wrong. Instead of being as big of a jerk as possible to everyone to make sure you never get spoken to so that you can never be proven wrong, you might try a little politeness for a change. You could discover a world of knowlege you never knew before.

Quote:

I don't even really have to challenge your claim on the "Soup abiogenesis" or macroevolution (wich is a made up word from the fudie right BTW) because you don't even know what they are HAHAHAHA HAHA! and all this time I thought you were faking and bulding staw men HAHAHAHAHAHA but the truth is you really have no freaking clue

....... ohhhhhh.... now I think everything makes sense... you have a
drinking problem don't you? ....yes, that explains alot. You got drunk
on a sunday afternoon? This is crazy. Why am I even wasting my time?

[SecretWeapon]

And I could say a lot more....

[Lunar Shadow]

I am sure you could but you know what it really doen't matter you wanna know why? because you are way way way off base in all of your thinking in the above post(s)

I am gonna do something that I should have done a long itme ago. Since you have done nothign but waste my time with nonsensical garbage you can consider yourself ignored.

[uncertaindrumer]

Wow. So I say there is a natural moral law and you somehow think that *helps* your argument? Okay, here we go:

You have admitted there is a natural moral law. You can no longer be an atheist. Why? Because an atheist must preclude the existance of a natural type of ethical code since this type of natural law can only come from something higher than humanity. Ergo, you need a God. I have the answer to the question of why there is a moral law. You don't. If there is a moral law, Something created it.

[Lunar Shadow]

Quote: (Originally Posted by uncertaindrumer)

Wow. So I say there is a natural moral law and you somehow think that *helps* your argument? Okay, here we go:

You have admitted there is a natural moral law. You can no longer be an atheist. Why? Because an atheist must preclude the existance of a natural type of ethical code since this type of natural law can only come from something higher than humanity. Ergo, you need a God. I have the answer to the question of why there is a moral law. You don't. If there is a moral law, Something created it.

You are basing your argument on a fallacious assumption..... Your assumption is that god exists and since god exists then moral law HAS to come from him.

by doing this you are making 2 huge mistakes in which you are drawing your erroneous conclusion from you have offered up no proof that

A: god exists (which I will concede is impossible to PROVE either that he does or does not exist)

And

B: If god DOES exist he has to be responsible for morality that has/will. Or will ever take place on earth.

those 2 assumptions are the 2 key errors that you have made in your argument and conclusion (fair enough I make the conclusion that there is no god) but if there were a god you can not automatically assume he had anything to do with morality.


I am an Atheist and there is a natural inherent moral or ethical code you have not show how if morality or ethics is inherent it had to come from a "higher being or power" you have failed to show anything to challenge that notion
Are you following me here? YOU DO however make an assumed conclusion and then proceed to say that I am not an Atheist and that I have no morality. Where do you get off say something like that?
---------------------------------------------------------------------


The next portion is directed to Secret Weapon

You say that I was never a true Christian (r) because I am now an Atheist

by doing this you are committing the "No True Scotsmen Fallacy" (look it up) (I know you won't) you have not logical grounds to stand on in making this accusation... your book in which you are drawing your conclusion form states if one strays away then they were never a Christian to begin with say that because they want to scare people in to submission if they didn't thousands would actually listen and learn about logic, reason, truth, and science. Rather than hang on to dogma, superstition, and an ancient invisible sky daddy.

[Justify]

I believe that Atheism is growing in America. I think it is a sad fact and will continue to happen. We Christians have allowed to happen by not standing up for our rights. We have allowed God to be taken out of our Schools. We allowed the voice of one Atheist to outway the voice of many who believe in God. It will continue to happen until Jesus comes back to this earth. It will be like it was in the days of Sodom and Gomorrah. I don't think we are too far off from that.

There is one thing that I don't think most Atheist understand. Atheist don't seem to understand that they must have faith to believe that the earth and universe came from nothing. Just as I must have faith that God has always been. To me it is easier to believe that God created it all than to believe it came from nowhere. At some point everything had to have a beginning. I see the beauty all around me. Beautiful Sunsets and Sunrises. Beautiful flowers and trees. Mountains and Valleys. Even the beauty of a woman. I can't imagine all that just coming from nowhere. All that just appearing and coming from some single cell organism billions of years ago.

Where do you think your morals came from. You think as a human we just automatically have some inherent since of morality. Why then are we are the only species on the planet that has this since of morality. How come animals do not have a conscience. Could it be that it is because we were created in the image of God? Where does it come from if it is not from God? That is an impossible question to answer.

[Justify]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Lunar Shadow)

The next portion is directed to Secret Weapon

You say that I was never a true Christian (r) because I am now an Atheist

by doing this you are committing the "No True Scotsmen Fallacy" (look it up) (I know you won't) you have not logical grounds to stand on in making this accusation... your book in which you are drawing your conclusion form states if one strays away then they were never a Christian to begin with say that because they want to scare people in to submission if they didn't thousands would actually listen and learn about logic, reason, truth, and science. Rather than hang on to dogma, superstition, and an ancient invisible sky daddy.

I think he says this because we as Christians believe "once saved, always saved". If God truely convicted you and showed you that Jesus is the Son of God and forgives all sins then you would have never left. When we are saved then we are given the holy spirit and the spirit is always with you. Some people believe they were once saved because they believed it at the time in their minds. The belief cannot just rest in your mind. Even the devil believes that Jesus was the Son of God. I'm not comparing you to the devil by any means so please don't take it that way. All I think he is trying to say is that if you are an Atheist now then you were never truely a Christian. Being a Christian means that you were saved by God through Jesus Christ. It doesn't just mean that you went to a Christian Church and believed it at the time. You have to pray that God will come into your heart and believe that Jesus died for you sins in order to be a Christian. If you never did that then you were never a Christian.