Baptism or hell?

[Higher_Desire]

Quote: (Originally Posted by uncertaindrumer)

People seem rather confused on this issue. First, in true Protestant fashion, some have claimed Baptism is useless because it is a work. First, it is not really a work, it is an outpouring of Grace from God. Second, you might not believe works are important to Salvation, but that is another argument. Until you can prove that Salvation is obtained by proclaiming Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior (which the Bible never says, by the way), then you can't say Baptism is useless because it is a work.

"Baptism now saves you". I can't remember the exact verse (don't have my Bible with me) but it is in Acts, I suggest you read it. Obviously, there is the Nicodemus discussion, as well as plenty of other verses, I will find some later.

Some people have argued that God would not be cruel, and deny someone Heaven because they weren't baptized. Well there are different forms of Baptism. There is Baptism by water, the usual kind. There is Baptism by Desire, which is when you believe in God, want to be saved, but do not have the ability or knowledge or means to be baptized. There is also Baptism by Blood which is when you give your life for Christ, and you are immediately cleansed of all sin because There is no greater deed than giving one's life for Christ.

As for all of the verses pertaining to beliving in the Lord will save you: I couldn't agree more. You do indeed have to believe in the Lord. But Paul ALSO says elswhere that we are saved by Faith working through love, that he (Paul himself) is not yet "aquitted", and he was PAUL.

Sorry for lack of verses, I'll get more on this later.

I can't find a reference in Acts for what you said about "baptism now saves you", but there is a reference in 1st Peter 3:21 that says that.

Baptism is a work (as you said yet people still don't belive) and "faith without works is dead."
For those who do not belive that statement, I suggest you read James 2.


H-D

[uncertaindrumer]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Higher_Desire)

I can't find a reference in Acts for what you said about "baptism now saves you", but there is a reference in 1st Peter 3:21 that says that.

Baptism is a work (as you said yet people still don't belive) and "faith without works is dead."
For those who do not belive that statement, I suggest you read James 2.


H-D

You are correct, I had a typo. I meant to say 1 Peter. I cleared it up in my last post.

Also, Sola Fide (Faith alone) is another subject which I would have a lot of fun debating. But even if you believe in Sola Fide, that should not influence your decision on Baptism. After all, if Baptism is a work (which it really isn't. If you want to get SUPER TECHNICAL, it is actually someone ELSE pouring the water on you), then proclaiming Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior is work. Because after all, you have to THINK it, and msot of the time you say a prayer to go along with it. And yet no protestant would claim it is a work. In the same way, Baptism is an outpouring of Grace from God.

[Jester]

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[uncertaindrumer]

Jester, you have absolutely NO tact AT ALL. You come into a FAITH AND RELIGION forum, and BASH everyone's Faith and religions.

I do not always agree with people on this forum. Sincirr, Higher Desire, etc. and I could all find a zillion things to disagree about, but we don't come in here for the sole purpose of making fun of someone else's faith. You don't know anything about Christianity or the Bible, that much is obvious, so stop pretending to, and stop INSULTING it.

[Jester]

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[uncertaindrumer]

I am sick and tired of hearing about your dad being a professor. YOU AREN'T. You OBVIOUSLY have no serious knowledge of the Bible, your ignorance is absurdly apparent.

But fine, go on bashing people if you would like. It might seem funny to you, but it isn't.

[Jester]

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[uncertaindrumer]

Hmmm... My conversings with you have gone way past theri usefulness. All you do is insult. It seems to be all you know how to do.

[Jester]

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[no_fixd_address]

Christians have always interpreted the Bible literally when it declares, "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:21; cf. Acts 2:38, 22:16, Rom. 6:3–4, Col. 2:11–12).

Thus the early Church Fathers wrote in the Nicene Creed (A.D. 381), "We believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins."

And the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The Lord himself affirms that baptism is necessary for salvation [John 3:5]. . . . Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament [Mark 16:16]" (CCC 1257).

The Christian belief that baptism is necessary for salvation is so unshakable that even the Protestant Martin Luther affirmed the necessity of baptism. He wrote: "Baptism is no human plaything but is instituted by God himself. Moreover, it is solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. We are not to regard it as an indifferent matter, then, like putting on a new red coat. It is of the greatest importance that we regard baptism as excellent, glorious, and exalted" (Large Catechism 4:6).

Yet Christians have also always realized that the necessity of water baptism is a normative rather than an absolute necessity. There are exceptions to water baptism: It is possible to be saved through "baptism of blood," martyrdom for Christ, or through "baptism of desire", that is, an explicit or even implicit desire for baptism.

Thus the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, are saved even if they have not been baptized" (CCC 1281; the salvation of unbaptized infants is also possible under this system; cf. CCC 1260–1, 1283). (no one can consciously commit the sin of Adam, so you do not need informed consent to have it removed in baptism)

As the following passages from the works of the Church Fathers illustrate, Christians have always believed in the normative necessity of water baptism, while also acknowledging the legitimacy of baptism by desire or blood.

Hermas

"‘I have heard, sir,’ said I [to the Shepherd], ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is’" (The Shepherd 4:3:1–2 [A.D. 80]).

Justin Martyr

"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

Tertullian

"Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life. . . . [But] a viper of the [Gnostic] Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism—which is quite in accordance with nature, for vipers and asps . . . themselves generally do live in arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our [Great] Fish, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water. So that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes—by taking them away from the water!" (Baptism 1 [A.D. 203]).

"Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none" (ibid., 12).

There are 10 more consistent quotes here, going from the 2nd to the 5th century:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Nece...of_Baptism.asp
There are many more.

Regenerative baptism was taught by Jesus and the Aposltes, pre-dates the canon of the Bible and the evidence is there for anyone who WANTS to see it.

[creedsister]

ccc. 12600_11283 haaaaa i was unaware of such codes

[rabidgopher04]

Quote: (Originally Posted by creedsister)

ccc. 12600_11283 haaaaa i was unaware of such codes

CCC means Catechism of the Catholic Church and the numbers are the paragraph numbers.