Atheism growing in America

[SecretWeapon]

Hey, uncertain, have you read this?http://www.creationevidence.org/scie...idencefor.html

Or this?

http://pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/04earth4.htm

[SecretWeapon]

This is in defense of myself on page 1, which I never really got the chance to reply to.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Lunar Shadow)

I do not worship anything and I am annoyed with your presuption that I worship nature.

Well, I am annoyed at your hateful responses, but I endure them, but for now I think it's better to just let this go. Sorry if I was rude.

Quote:

All Theists say that they have the one true god you are nothing special in assurting this I mean if you were to ask Bin Laden he would say that he has the one true god and that the infidel chistians don't know what they are talking about

What do you think I am? An idiot? I could say that Atheists say that they know the true truth and that theists don't know what they're talking about. Would that make you feel smarter or insulted? Please be more thoughtful before you spout out todays well-known headlines to me.

Quote:

I am not even going to justify this with a response

That's the way. I think you're getting the hang of this.

Quote:

where?

You called be a bigot and accused me of being hateful.
Yet, there was no hatefulness in my statement. This is
a prime example of God's Holiness being uncomprehended
or ingored. Yes, that would be a very evil and hateful thing
to say if I was speaking of anyone other than The Holy God,
in Whom there is no fault, Who is worthy of all glory, praise, worship, Who has all power, wisdom, rightesness, etc. But
God is God, and it is -to say the least- unfair to Him to have
all this sin and evil in His nation.

Also, I don't believe that God's law is unloving or evil, childish, wrathful, etc, but loving, Devine, and merciful. If God was all those evil things you say He is, why on Earth would He have given us the law, and told us what not to do? The law was to be known by everyone in Isreal, therefore, if one broke the law, he/she would have done it knowingly, with full knowledge of the consequences. If they commited sin unknowingly then there were sacrifices to pay for their sin. These there were also, even if they did sin knowingly.

This is as valid as calling every law made in America
pertaining to right and wrong evil, and the judge,
jury, and executioner wrathful, childish beings.

Quote:

so tell me have you ever worked on saturday? if so then we should kill you now.

do you wear mixed fibers?
have you eaten food prepared by a woman on her period? (if you eat our you may have and would have never known)
would you kill your son if he disobeyed you?
these are in in Lev 19

would you sell your daughter in to slavery? YES the bible allows this

For someone who claims to have studied the Bible, you seem to know shockingly little about the Christian faith.

Acts 10:9-16 (NIV) About noon the following day as they were on they're journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray.

He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down by its four corners. It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. Then a voice told him, "Peter. Kill and eat."

"Surely not, Lord!", Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything unpure or unclean"

The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything unpure that God has made clean."

This happened three times, and immediatly the sheet was taken back into heaven.


1 Corinthians 6:12 (NIV) "Everything is permissible for me"- but not everything is benificial. "Everything is permissible for me" -but I will not be mastered by anything.


1 Corinthians 10:23 (NIV) "Everything is permissible" - but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible" -but not everything is consructive.

[uncertaindrumer]

Quote: (Originally Posted by SecretWeapon)

Hey, uncertain, have you read this?http://www.creationevidence.org/scie...idencefor.html

Or this?

http://pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/04earth4.htm

Not those exact links but i have read quite a bit on young earth theories and the like. In the end, they all seem crappy to me. Science definitely seems to be in favor of evolution.

Of course, this matters nil to me, religious wise, since my faith does not rely upon a six thousand year old Earth in any way shape or form. I also consider myself a rather unbiased observer because the argument really does not matter to me. If the evidence were in favor of a young Earth, I'd have no trouble believing that either. Just doesn't appear to be true.

And then of course there is the argument I always hear, the one about God simply creating the universe to look old. Well, that's also perfectly alright, but goshdarnit if He created it to look old, I am gonna treat it like it is old. And this theory of course ignores the notion that the Bible never SAYS He created the universe to look old, which of course does not mean He couldn't have, but since strict Genesis literalists have to appeal to total exactness everywhere else, you think there would be a problem with God never having mentioned that he put stars in the sky 2 million light years away and made them visible immediately.

And if somewhere along the line some evidence is found that seems to point towards a young Earth, sobeit. Simply seems unlikely given the evidence.

[SecretWeapon]

Well the universe, including the minerals, etc used to create the earth
were obviously already there, the Bible says in the beginning the world
was void and without form and the Spirit of the Lord hovered above the waters, so obviously it had been there for awhile. I, personaly, have no problem believing that God had already created the known universe, and
(as you look into what the word "genisis" means it becomes clearer)
that the book of Genisis is about mankinds beginning.

However, there is, as mentioned on the above sites, mounting evidence
that the events described in Genisis happened at a time much more in
tune with what the Bible says.

And, by the way, I don't find it very hard at all to believe in Adam and Eve
as described in the Bible. If the first part of Genisis was not particularly
true, then why would the Bible mention where the garden of eden was
geologicaly, and why would God have set an angel and a "sword of flame
which turned every way to keep the way of the tree of life" ?
Why would Satan have taken the form of a snake, since snakes are
obviously real creatures and if the adam and eve "story" is only allegory,
then why all this realism?

[Lunar Shadow]

hello police? yes this is Lunar Shadow.... Yes I would like to report a hijacking.... no not an air plane no no no its my thread on creed feed yeah thats right. what? you'll send some one right over? thank you so much.

[uncertaindrumer]

He hijacked the thread... I just responded to him. Heh.

But yeah, anyway, growing atheism doesn't surprise me at all. People continue to shun morals, responsibility, discipline, etc. And they look for more and more "independance" (like they even know what that means) so of course atheism is the logical choice. There are no moral bounds, no principles, no ethics. you can do whatever you want whenever you want. Does it surprise anyone that the U.S. would have a growing atheist movement? Sure doesn't surprise me.

From another point of view, athiem is also extremely simple. Indeed, there really is no more simple view of life. I would say it way too simplistic but people don't care. They listen to crappy music because it is simple, they watch crappy movies because they are simple, they go to public school where everything is dumbed down and simple. Simple is the thing and atheism is as simple as it gets.

[SecretWeapon]

Yeah, it seems that way at first, but as you ask an atheist more and more
questions, atheism gets more and more complicated and confusing. It is
very very difficult to come up with a believe system not based on any
higher being. Several concepts are "borrowed" from other faiths, ie the golden rule, etc. Atheism accepts no notion that possibley the fact that
all previous beliefs of earlier civilizations/nations/creeds/religions were even
remotely true. To quote Michael Crichton-

"Instead, each generation writes off earlier errors as the result of bad
thinking by less able minds- and then confidently embarks on fresh errors of its own"

[uncertaindrumer]

I'm not talking about wishy washy liberal agnosticism. I am talking about real atheism. Real atheism is as simple as it gets, and definitely is one of man's greatest wishful thinkings of all time.

[SecretWeapon]

Yes, if you notice, by saying that there is no creator, they are
saying that some of the most brilliant minds in history, such as
Albert Einstien, Sir Issac Newton and Leonardo Davinci where all wrong,
which in turn, is saying that the average atheist (even dropouts and
flunks) who "knows" that there is no god is smarter than Einstien,
or smarter than Davinci, or than Newton, whose scientific laws they
believe in. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you!

"Thanks for the discoveries, but you are wrong in every other apsect
of your life, and we'll just seperate the wheat from the chaff."

Not if their laws/theories were based upon their wholeness.

Albert Einstien, arguably one of the most genius minds in history set
out to prove that the universe could be the way it is without a Creator.
He later said that this was "the greatest mistake of my life".
Although, he never believed in a personal God, he did concede that there
was a creator. Is there an atheist smarter than Einstien?
If there were, I think I would have heard of him by now.

[uncertaindrumer]

I have been studying quantam physics a lot lately... man. If that doesn't show the complexity of our universe, and how against the odds it would be to have all happened randomly (setting aside for the moment the usual arguments of how it even EXISTS and then what set it into motion), but even beyond that, no way can my reasoning mind believe that our universe just came to be the way it is by chance.

I guess others can deal with that amazing leap of faith, but I can't. Believing in God makes more sense.

[Lunar Shadow]

Quote: (Originally Posted by uncertaindrumer)

I have been studying quantam physics a lot lately... man. If that doesn't show the complexity of our universe, and how against the odds it would be to have all happened randomly (setting aside for the moment the usual arguments of how it even EXISTS and then what set it into motion), but even beyond that, no way can my reasoning mind believe that our universe just came to be the way it is by chance.

I guess others can deal with that amazing leap of faith, but I can't. Believing in God makes more sense.

Either way you look at it UD there is a sense of rediculousness to it either there is a god or there isn't yes there is some I guess you could call it faith involved in atheism but what it really comes down to is that there hasn't been scientific proof of god so I pesonally can not believe with out evidence it is quite plain and simple.

[Lunar Shadow]

Quote: (Originally Posted by SecretWeapon)

Yeah, it seems that way at first, but as you ask an atheist more and more
questions, atheism gets more and more complicated and confusing. It is
very very difficult to come up with a believe system not based on any
higher being. Several concepts are "borrowed" from other faiths, ie the golden rule, etc. Atheism accepts no notion that possibley the fact that
all previous beliefs of earlier civilizations/nations/creeds/religions were even
remotely true. To quote Michael Crichton-

"Instead, each generation writes off earlier errors as the result of bad
thinking by less able minds- and then confidently embarks on fresh errors of its own"

the one thing that you and UD are missing is that there is a natural moral order in the world and beyond weather you wanna call it the golden rule (wich btw christ was not the first to state in john 12) or you want to call it sevivalist tactics there is a moral order hell it is evident in pack animals as well.... Atheism isn't a religion it is a philisophy stand point. how can something be a religion when there is nothing being worshiped?

Atheism isn't easy as UD would have you believe it isn't a selfish choice it is an intellectual choice based on observable facts and hard data. is it 100% sound? no but neither is any other stand point weather it be theism, polytheism, pantheism, or what have you.

[uncertaindrumer]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Lunar Shadow)

Either way you look at it UD there is a sense of rediculousness to it either there is a god or there isn't yes there is some I guess you could call it faith involved in atheism but what it really comes down to is that there hasn't been scientific proof of god so I pesonally can not believe with out evidence it is quite plain and simple.

But if you need proof of anything to act upon it, you would need proof of the non-existance of God to act upon that, wouldn't you? And disproving the existance of God is impossible.

[uncertaindrumer]

Quote:

the one thing that you and UD are missing is that there is a natural moral order in the world

If that is true, there has to be something higher. There simply cannot be a natural moral order without something higher.

[Lunar Shadow]

Quote: (Originally Posted by uncertaindrumer)

But if you need proof of anything to act upon it, you would need proof of the non-existance of God to act upon that, wouldn't you? And disproving the existance of God is impossible.

not really you see it is as this in science something isn't until proven otherwise so it is not illogical to operate from suc a stand point as Atheism