Mormon men can get their own planet

[uncertaindrumer]

Maybe "churches" change and spring up all over the place, but I don't think Christ's church was meant to morph into something else. And yes, Christ DID promise the Church would last, "The Gates of Hell will not prevail agaisnt you".

And if you believe there is only one God and yet three persons in God, how is that Different from the Trinity?

Finally, The reason I ask for the time you think the Church started to go sour is because early Church Father writings all back up Catholic doctinres. We see evidence of the Eucharist, the Trinity, superiority of the Bishops, etc. etc. Yet if the early Church was Mormon, we wouldn't see those things, would we? For instance, writing in the first or second decade of the second century, St. Irenaus writes in his "Against Heresies" (speaking about a certain group of heretics):

"...For they do not confess the Eucharist to be the Body and Blood of Christ"--not an exact quotation.

Please continue though, this has been very interesting.

[Chase]

I'm down to join a cult and get my own planet some day.

[uncertaindrumer]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chase)

I'm down to join a cult and get my own planet some day.

Oh, you are really contributing to the discussion.

[Chase]

It's called sarcasm, Chief.

[uncertaindrumer]

I know, but how would you like it if someone sarcastically made fun of your religion? Whether it is ridiculous or not, a religion is not something to be made fun of, at least when someone is charitably explaining it to everyone.

I mean, I don't care. But I can't imagine it was the greatest thing to say to a mormon.

[Higher_Desire]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chase)

I'm down to join a cult and get my own planet some day.

You're an idiot. Mormonism is NOT a cult, and NO ONE gets their own planet. Have you even read the beginning of this thread? Maybe you should.

Now onto the more important stuff...

Quote: (Originally Posted by uncertaindrumer)

Maybe "churches" change and spring up all over the place, but I don't think Christ's church was meant to morph into something else. And yes, Christ DID promise the Church would last, "The Gates of Hell will not prevail agaisnt you".

The gates of hell will not prevail against the true church because it is the truth. The "true church" will not be brought down by evil.

Let me put it like this (how I believe it): Everyone in the world has the free agency to choose what they want to do, and everyone who ever has lived also had this. God does not force anyone to do anything. One person can construe the teachings. That is why the truth needed to be restored in it's fullness. Hence, it prevails. Look at it like this: in a boxing match, one of the contestants is not always winning, yet, in the end, one wins. This is the same. There has been a constant battle and evil does bring down truth, but truth will win out.

Quote:

And if you believe there is only one God and yet three persons in God, how is that Different from the Trinity?

I never said I believe they're three people in God. Maybe you need to read my posts a bit slower. They are one in PURPOSE. Meaning, they teach the will of God, love, charity, kindness, compassion, etc.

Let's try it like this. Scott Stapp, Mark Tremonti, and Scott Phillips are three seperate people, yet for years, they had one purpose. That being Creed. Creed is not one person. God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are not one person.

Quote:

Finally, The reason I ask for the time you think the Church started to go sour is because early Church Father writings all back up Catholic doctinres. We see evidence of the Eucharist, the Trinity, superiority of the Bishops, etc. etc. Yet if the early Church was Mormon, we wouldn't see those things, would we? For instance, writing in the first or second decade of the second century, St. Irenaus writes in his "Against Heresies" (speaking about a certain group of heretics):

"...For they do not confess the Eucharist to be the Body and Blood of Christ"--not an exact quotation.

Please continue though, this has been very interesting.

Catholicism is the same as Christianity. The only reason they're referred to as different is because of the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches excommunicating each other because of fighting over doctrine, some of which had been changed. Mormonism, which is a sect of Christianity, also backs up teachings of early churches. That is to say, the correct things. Doctrines we also see in the Bible. They're aren't "mormon" writings from then because "mormonism" didn't exist as we know it today. Back then it was Christ's church. And don't you dare try to tell me that the Catholic doctrine has never changed.

And while we're on it... it is not the Mormon church. To refer to it, it is the LDS church. Mormon is a man who wrote part of the Book of Mormon, and was the main record keeper for a long period of time. It was passed through his family for the record to be kept. To call the church the Mormon church, is inaccurate.


H-D

[Chase]

Don't call me an "idiot." I said I was being sarcastic kiddo. Mormonism isn't accepted by Protestants, Catholics, or Eastern Orthodox churches as being legitimate bodies of Christ. In the United States, Mormonism has had an infamous reputation of being anything BUT Christian. It is safe to say that it has reach cult status to many Christian denominations around the world.

It's a congregation that is NOT in sync with the teachings of Christ.

Everytime a Mormon approaches me trying to attempt to convert me... they ALWAYS have trouble defending the true notions of their "church." Now why is it that?

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one in the same.

[uncertaindrumer]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Higher_Desire)

You're an idiot. Mormonism is NOT a cult, and NO ONE gets their own planet. Have you even read the beginning of this thread? Maybe you should.

Now onto the more important stuff...


The gates of hell will not prevail against the true church because it is the truth. The "true church" will not be brought down by evil.

Let me put it like this (how I believe it): Everyone in the world has the free agency to choose what they want to do, and everyone who ever has lived also had this. God does not force anyone to do anything. One person can construe the teachings. That is why the truth needed to be restored in it's fullness. Hence, it prevails. Look at it like this: in a boxing match, one of the contestants is not always winning, yet, in the end, one wins. This is the same. There has been a constant battle and evil does bring down truth, but truth will win out.

So, for the 1500 years from the third century until the nineteenth century, there was no true CHURCH? God let His children go without dircetion for 1500 years?! I simply will not accept that.

Quote:

I never said I believe they're three people in God. Maybe you need to read my posts a bit slower. They are one in PURPOSE. Meaning, they teach the will of God, love, charity, kindness, compassion, etc.

Let's try it like this. Scott Stapp, Mark Tremonti, and Scott Phillips are three seperate people, yet for years, they had one purpose. That being Creed. Creed is not one person. God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are not one person.

Then how do you explain the constant Bible passages claiming there is only one God?

Quote:

Catholicism is the same as Christianity. The only reason they're referred to as different is because of the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches excommunicating each other because of fighting over doctrine, some of which had been changed. Mormonism, which is a sect of Christianity, also backs up teachings of early churches. That is to say, the correct things. Doctrines we also see in the Bible. They're aren't "mormon" writings from then because "mormonism" didn't exist as we know it today. Back then it was Christ's church. And don't you dare try to tell me that the Catholic doctrine has never changed.

Catholic doctrine HASN'T changed. It has developed, but not CHANGED. For instance, Papal infallibilty wasn't always taught in the exact form as it is now, but it has always been believed. I would dare you to find one doctrine of the Church which has "changed".

By the way, saying "we only believe in early church teachings if we see them in the Bible" is a little silly. Obviously, if ALL THESE CHURCH FATHERS believed doctrines (doctrines which you don't believe in by the way) then they must have found them in the Bible, or from the teaching of the Apostles. The entire early church (which you keep referring to as "Christ's church) cannot be wrong, can it? If so, it really isn't
Christ's church and there must never have BEEN Christ's church until the Mormons came along, and that jsut doesn't make any sense for Jesus to come to Earth and then wait 1800 years to establish His church.

Quote:

And while we're on it... it is not the Mormon church. To refer to it, it is the LDS church. Mormon is a man who wrote part of the Book of Mormon, and was the main record keeper for a long period of time. It was passed through his family for the record to be kept. To call the church the Mormon church, is inaccurate.


H-D

Well whatever. It does not make a difference to me.

[uncertaindrumer]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chase)

Don't call me an "idiot." I said I was being sarcastic kiddo. Mormonism isn't accepted by Protestants, Catholics, or Eastern Orthodox churches as being legitimate bodies of Christ. In the United States, Mormonism has had an infamous reputation of being anything BUT Christian. It is safe to say that it has reach cult status to many Christian denominations around the world.

It's a congregation that is NOT in sync with the teachings of Christ.

Everytime a Mormon approaches me trying to attempt to convert me... they ALWAYS have trouble defending the true notions of their "church." Now why is it that?

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one in the same.

Look, I don't accept the LDS church (happy, HD? lol) as a true Christian Church either, becasue they don't even believe in Christ's divinity, so how can they be a Christian Church. But really, if you want to convert Mormons, I DON'T think insulting them is the best way to do it.

[Higher_Desire]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chase)

Don't call me an "idiot." I said I was being sarcastic kiddo. Mormonism isn't accepted by Protestants, Catholics, or Eastern Orthodox churches as being legitimate bodies of Christ. In the United States, Mormonism has had an infamous reputation of being anything BUT Christian. It is safe to say that it has reach cult status to many Christian denominations around the world.

It's a congregation that is NOT in sync with the teachings of Christ.

Everytime a Mormon approaches me trying to attempt to convert me... they ALWAYS have trouble defending the true notions of their "church." Now why is it that?

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one in the same.

If mormonsim isn't accepted as christianity, it is because of the short-sightedness of the people looking at it. They look at it as a cult because they do not see the underlying truths contained in it. If people have trouble defending it, it is because they don't understand it. Not everyone knows the same amount about the church.

Quote: (Originally Posted by uncertaindrumer)

So, for the 1500 years from the third century until the nineteenth century, there was no true CHURCH? God let His children go without dircetion for 1500 years?! I simply will not accept that.

Amos 3:7 -- "For surely the Lord God doeth nothing except he reveal his secrets unto his servants the prophets." Take that as you will. I believe that there have been men on earth who have worked to keep the teachings of Christ alive. But that does not mean it was never changed.

Quote:

Then how do you explain the constant Bible passages claiming there is only one God?

There IS only one God. Why do you seem to have trouble with me saying that? There is ONE God. Jesus is his SON.

Quote:

Catholic doctrine HASN'T changed. It has developed, but not CHANGED. For instance, Papal infallibilty wasn't always taught in the exact form as it is now, but it has always been believed. I would dare you to find one doctrine of the Church which has "changed".

By the way, saying "we only believe in early church teachings if we see them in the Bible" is a little silly. Obviously, if ALL THESE CHURCH FATHERS believed doctrines (doctrines which you don't believe in by the way) then they must have found them in the Bible, or from the teaching of the Apostles. The entire early church (which you keep referring to as "Christ's church) cannot be wrong, can it? If so, it really isn't
Christ's church and there must never have BEEN Christ's church until the Mormons came along, and that jsut doesn't make any sense for Jesus to come to Earth and then wait 1800 years to establish His church.

Change, develop, what's the difference. Point is, it's not the same.
Show me some of the "doctrines" you're talking about that we don't belive in that are biblical.

Quote:

Look, I don't accept the LDS church (happy, HD? lol) as a true Christian Church either, becasue they don't even believe in Christ's divinity, so how can they be a Christian Church. But really, if you want to convert Mormons, I DON'T think insulting them is the best way to do it.

Yes we do believe in Christ's divinity. He was sent to earth by his father, he was born of the virgin Mary in a stable in Bethlehem, he ministered to the people, worked miracles, raised the dead, was baptized and atoned for the sins of the world, was crucified on the cross, and was resurrected on the third day. Is is the son of the living God. How can you say we don't believe in his divinity? It IS a Christian church, like it or not.


H-D

[uncertaindrumer]

So you say there is only one God in one sentence and then in the next you say that Jesus is divine? There is no in-between. Either Jesus is a creature, thus not Divine, or there are two Gods, which the Bible clearly rejects, or there are three persons in ONE GOD, the only reasonable explenation.

And there is a HUGE difference between development of doctrine and changing doctrine. For instance, every major Christian Church EXCEPT for the Catholic Church changed their stance on Contraception in the early to mid nineteenth century--did God's LAW suddenly change, or did people jsut suddenly want the conveniency of the pill?

Also, you belief that there are two gods (Jesus and God) or your belief that Jesus is created (I can't tell which one you believe, you keep changing) are unbiblical. I don't have a list of all Mormon teachings so I can't jsut go through them and pick the unbiblical ones, unfortunately...

[Higher_Desire]

Quote: (Originally Posted by uncertaindrumer)

So you say there is only one God in one sentence and then in the next you say that Jesus is divine? There is no in-between. Either Jesus is a creature, thus not Divine, or there are two Gods, which the Bible clearly rejects, or there are three persons in ONE GOD, the only reasonable explenation.

Divine does not mean he's God.
di·vine
adj. di·vin·er, di·vin·est
Having the nature of or being a deity.
Of, relating to, emanating from, or being the expression of a deity: sought divine guidance through meditation.
Being in the service or worship of a deity; sacred.
Superhuman; godlike.

Supremely good or beautiful; magnificent: a divine performance of the concerto.
Extremely pleasant; delightful: had a divine time at the ball.
Heavenly; perfect.

He is the divine son of God.

Quote:

And there is a HUGE difference between development of doctrine and changing doctrine. For instance, every major Christian Church EXCEPT for the Catholic Church changed their stance on Contraception in the early to mid nineteenth century--did God's LAW suddenly change, or did people jsut suddenly want the conveniency of the pill?

Yeah, there's a big difference between "development" and "change." Point is... it's not exactly the same. I find it hard to believe that *poof* all the churches in the world changed. I need some proof of that. But yes, God's laws can change. The Law of Moses for example. If that's still in effect, why don't we do burnt sacrifices?

Quote:

Also, you belief that there are two gods (Jesus and God) or your belief that Jesus is created (I can't tell which one you believe, you keep changing) are unbiblical. I don't have a list of all Mormon teachings so I can't jsut go through them and pick the unbiblical ones, unfortunately...

I do not keep changing. I think you need to read my posts a bit slower and think about them. Now read this slowly: I believe there is only one God. I believe Jesus is the chosen son of God. Alpha and Omega, the first and the last. There may be nothing in the Bible that says "Jesus was created" but remember, there is also nothing that says he wasn't. Don't forget, you yourself said that it's a touchy subject that no one knows for sure.

Look, I believe that God and Jesus are seperate beings. I believe that even as Stephen "saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God." (Acts 7:55-57) and they also appeard to Joseph Smith as seperate. There is no possible way for you to convince me that they are the same person, and that when God chose to came to earth, he chose to do so in the body of Jesus Christ.


H-D

[uncertaindrumer]

Well if there is NO POSSIBLE WAY to convince you that Jesus is God, why are we bothering? Are you that close-minded?

Jesus is either God, or He is NOT God. Considering how often he says He is the SAME as the Father, I would say He is gGd. I do not see how you can say He is below God when the Bible never says ANYTHING like that.

God's moral law does NOT change. Sacrifices are one thing; those are not the same as morality. Murder will NEVER be okay. In the same way, when every major Christian Church began changing their stance on contraception, it was jsut wrong. (By the way, the church's did not all change immediately in 1930, but by the sixties and seventies, every non-Catholic Christian church said condoms were okay, and before 1930 none had said so).

[Higher_Desire]

Quote: (Originally Posted by uncertaindrumer)

Well if there is NO POSSIBLE WAY to convince you that Jesus is God, why are we bothering? Are you that close-minded?

Jesus is either God, or He is NOT God. Considering how often he says He is the SAME as the Father, I would say He is gGd. I do not see how you can say He is below God when the Bible never says ANYTHING like that.

God's moral law does NOT change. Sacrifices are one thing; those are not the same as morality. Murder will NEVER be okay. In the same way, when every major Christian Church began changing their stance on contraception, it was jsut wrong. (By the way, the church's did not all change immediately in 1930, but by the sixties and seventies, every non-Catholic Christian church said condoms were okay, and before 1930 none had said so).

You can't convince me because it's what I believe. You're not willing to listen to me and my arguemnts, and can't seem to even acknowledge the possiblility of Jesus Christ as a created being. So don't brand me as the only close-mined one here.

When talking about contraception, don't forget that condoms haven't been around forever. The world is a changing place. Don't forget that the LDS church also believes that sex should be only during marriage and it's one of the things that is the same as in the Catholic church.


H-D

[uncertaindrumer]

Condoms might not have been around forever but contraception has been.

Also, I am not saying I am going to change my mind: but I will if I believe you are correct. Granted, I do not believe you are correct, but I am trying to disprove you. You have not even dealt with the verses that say God and Jesus are the same. But that is your right. You don't have to change.