TOP 9 Apologetic Mistakes

[Lunar Shadow]

non sequitur: Latin for "It does not follow." An inference or conclusion that does not follow from established premises or evidence. (e.g., there occured an increase of births during the full moon. Conclusion: full moons cause birth rates to rise.) But does a full moon actually cause more births, or did it occur for other reasons, perhaps from expected statistical variations?

observational selection (similar to confirmation bias): pointing out favorable circumstances while ignoring the unfavorable. Anyone who goes to Las Vegas gambling casinos will see people winning at the tables and slots. The casino managers make sure to install bells and whistles to announce the victors, while the losers never get mentioned. This may lead one to conclude that the chances of winning appear good while in actually just the reverse holds true.

post hoc, ergo propter hoc: Latin for "It happened after, so it was caused by." Similar to a non sequitur, but time dependent. (e.g. She got sick after she visited China, so something in China caused her sickness.) Perhaps her sickness derived from something entirely independent from China.

proving non-existence: when an arguer cannot provide the evidence for his claims, he may challenge his opponent to prove it doesn't exist (e.g., prove God doesn't exist; prove UFO's haven't visited earth, etc.). Although one may prove non-existence in special limitations, such as showing that a box does not contain certain items, one cannot prove universal or absolute non-existence, or non-existence out of ignorance. One cannot prove something that does not exist. The proof of existence must come from those who make the claims.

red herring: when the arguer diverts the attention by changing the subject.

reification fallacy: when people treat an abstract belief or hypothetical construct as if it represented a concrete event or physical entity. Examples: IQ tests as an actual measure of intelligence; the concept of race (even though genetic attributes exist), from the chosen combination of attributes or the labeling of a group of people, come from abstract social constructs; Astrology; god(s); Jesus; Santa Claus, etc.

slippery slope: a change in procedure, law, or action, will result in adverse consequences. (e.g., If we allow doctor assisted suicide, then eventually the government will control how we die.) It does not necessarily follow that just because we make changes that a slippery slope will occur.

special pleading: the assertion of new or special matter to offset the opposing party's allegations. A presentation of an argument that emphasizes only a favorable or single aspect of the question at issue. (e.g. How can God create so much suffering in the world? Answer: You have to understand that God moves in mysterious ways and we have no privilege to this knowledge. Or: Horoscopes work, but you have to understand the theory behind it.)

statistics of small numbers: similar to observational selection (e.g., My parents smoked all their lives and they never got cancer. Or: I don't care what others say about Yugos, my Yugo has never had a problem.) Simply because someone can point to a few favorable numbers says nothing about the overall chances.

straw man: creating a false scenario and then attacking it. (e.g., Evolutionists think that everything came about by random chance.) Most evolutionists think in terms of natural selection which may involve incidental elements, but does not depend entirely on random chance. Painting your opponent with false colors only deflects the purpose of the argument.

two wrongs make a right: trying to justify what we did by accusing someone else of doing the same. (e.g. how can you judge my actions when you do exactly the same thing?) The guilt of the accuser has no relevance to the discussion.

[IvyFairy]

Original Message Taken Down. Sorry People.

[Lunar Shadow]

Quote: (Originally Posted by rabidgopher04)

tsk. tsk. Please don't read into my post your assumptions. I was just asking what your foundational belief is. I never said nor implied anything about religion or God.

Second, for some people morals and ethics ARE dictated by religion and their belief in God. Simply because you do not believe as such does not justify a blanket statement such as the one you made.

Next question (perhaps we should just split this thread): What happens when someone treats you in a way different than what you would want to be treated? In other words, what if someone is rude or unkind to you (ranging anywhere from mild or severe)? What do you do? What are your principles for that?

I apologize for my assumption that was not my intent but it may have come out that way.

I do agree on your 2nd point and again I apologize for my blanketed statement

To address your next question is tough

I would like to say that I TRY to point out that they are being irrational or mean spirited or I just ignore them... but I will admit I do sometimes find myself getting caught up in the heat of the moment and getting aggressive with them. But I TRY to step back and see their point of view and/or still be respectful in return but there is a point where I do have to defend myself

[rabidgopher04]

Sorry about all the questions, but I am very curious about a different point of view than my own.

So then what does your belief tell you about your purpose in life? Why are you here?

[Lunar Shadow]

Quote: (Originally Posted by rabidgopher04)

Sorry about all the questions, but I am very curious about a different point of view than my own.

So then what does your belief tell you about your purpose in life? Why are you here?

No problem with questions none at all it is good that you are not judging on face value.....

I have no beliefs to speak of I am an Atheist we are just a random occurrence of a causality loop. For me the meaning of life is 42! No but really I am on my own "quest" if you will to find out my meaning of life (I feel it is different for every one, no ones path is the same).

[Sincirr]

Quote:

**Non-believers, apologetics rant rant rant**

Yeh cool. I actually thought this information was quite useful.

Quote:

so obviously I wrote this as simple to read as possible

What do U mean by this? I took it as a hateful, patronising remark U see...

I think it is cool that U are on your own journey, really I do...my concern is that through visiting sites like the one where this 9 point thing came from, U R forming your own thoughts with the influence of hateful people. I mean even the first page of that site has a pic of Jesus with a bible and the words blah blah f'ing blah written in it. This assumes criticism, synicism...hatred basically.

I usually think U are pretty respectful but sometimes your real side shows up. Youre not really fooling me. you dont respect me or anyone else that believes in God, including your own friends that U have spoken of.

[Lunar Shadow]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Sincirr)

What do U mean by this? I took it as a hateful, patronising remark U see...

mind you I did not type that. Every thing after the line is a direct quote hence for me dividing my words from it.

[Lunar Shadow]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Sincirr)

I usually think U are pretty respectful but sometimes your real side shows up. Youre not really fooling me. you dont respect me or anyone else that believes in God, including your own friends that U have spoken of.

That statement shows me one thing YOU DON'T KNOW ME you never have and probably never will. Like I have said time and time again I have Christian friends and I do respect their opinion and then there are Christians I know that I have no respect for, you know the types that go blindly like lambs to the slaughter... My Christian friends have done much research and put much time, thought and searching in to their beliefs and are quite intellectual about it for that I respect them but respectfully disagree with them... We have conversations all the time regarding religion and philosophy. There are times when things get heated, but we are able to separate the discussion from the friendship... So as I said before the above statement you make shows sheer ignorance and makes a false assumption about my life and the company I keep.

[Lunar Shadow]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Sincirr)

I think it is cool that U are on your own journey, really I do...my concern is that through visiting sites like the one where this 9 point thing came from, U R forming your own thoughts with the influence of hateful people. I mean even the first page of that site has a pic of Jesus with a bible and the words blah blah f'ing blah written in it. This assumes criticism, synicism...hatred basically.

Maybe you should try diving in to the fourms and hear what some of the ex-chrisitans have to say, maybe even have a discussion with them or is convertations with multiple non chirsitans too much for you?? there are quite a few christians on the board that partake in many interesting discussions it is very interesting to read regardless of what side you believe. (that is my opinion)