[SecretWeapon]

Quote: (Originally Posted by uncertaindrumer)

I suppose I wouldn't mind although most of the relevant material I have read always starts bordering on pantheism, which I can barely even talk about it is so pathetic.

Basically I am wary of reading anything on the subject because it seems useless. As soon as one says "objective morality" it means something beyond humans (since, if it isn't higher than it isn't objective). And that seems to deny atheism right away. I guess one can make the argument that the moral law is not a God per se, but it is still higher than humans, and it has to have come from somwhere, and that somewhere also *has* to be higher than humans, which would then, effectively deflate any notion that humans are as high as it gets, which is what most atheists mean by their atheism.

There are many other problems with "morality outside God", such as how we know of this morality, but the first one is the one which just seems to nip the whole darn thing in the bud.

Add that to the fact that we can't go back in time and see where
religion allegedly "began". Apearantly every culture in Earth's past
seems to have had some form of moral code, or at least higher being
to hold them acountable. So, from a historical standpoint, it would
seem that it can't be proven by "particular" evidence that morals have
been around longer than religion. Thus, methinks, atheists attempt to
prove their argument by way of psychology, etc, which basically
means that they are attempting to using the realm of "absolutes" to
prove that absolutes are natural (the pack of wolves argument) and
not supernatural.

However, if a young healthy son risks his life for his
old, decrepid father who is terminaly ill... where is the "natural"
advantage in that? For a young, healthy person, still able to mate
and bring about offspring, to sacrifice their own lives/health for a
person who is, by evolutionary standards, worthless is, by all natural
explanation, unimaginable. (Assuming the son has no offspring) Yet
I'm sure it's happened at least once in history. And few doubt that it
is capable of the human species.