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uncertaindrumer · 05-13-2005, 02:28 PM

Alright, first, God's grace is INDEED the only way we can get into Heaven, I am not arguing that. God's grace works through both Faith AND works though, and I want you to explain to me how you can say works are useless when James specifically says "You are justified by works and not by faith alone".

Second, I have to think that an honest observer would see th line "Be careful lest you fall" would mean that we can ACTUALLY FALL. You are basically saying he can't.

The other passages we could debate all day and never come to a conclusion. You are going to interpret it the way you want to. You say you are basing it on context but that isn't true. CLEARLY the context of being "cut off" is the loss of Grace. But still, you and I could argue about it all day long. The real question is: How do you know your interpretation is correct? How do you know mine is wrong?

And sure, your Bible's commentaries are written by scholars--protestant scholars. They are going to be just as jaded as you and are going to LOOK for ways to explain away the obvious condemnation of guarunteed salvation. This is how salvation occurs:

Through no action of our own, God gives us grace. We don't deserve it, but we get it. Through that grace we can both have Faith and do Good Works for the Lord, both of which are necessary. If we stop believing, or we fall into sin, we can lose that grace. We can always get it back, but we CAN lose it.

And yes, to get into Heaven, our souls have to be PERFECT. It says in revelation that nothing unclean shall enter Heaven, which means nothing with Sin. Now, this is where purgatory comes in, but that is an entirely different issue. But for you to claim that you can just go around comitting sin after sin and never lose your salvation is erroneous. If that were true, the commandments would be useless, Jesus teachings to love one another would be useless, etc. etc.

Quote: No, it does not mean that he will lose his salvation if he does not follow his own words. It means practicing what you preach. If he his telling people how to live and not taking his own advice, then he's being hypocritical. What you are basically saying is that we all need to be perfect Christians to get into heaven. What you are saying almost sounds like what the Pharisees believed. IT IS BY GODS GRACE THAT WE GET INTO HEAVEN NOTHING ELSE. There is no arguing that.

So he says he does not stand acquitted because otherwise he will be a hypocrite? And yet, a hypocrite who will still get into heaven, right, because he is "saved"? Why on earth would he even bring this up if there was not a REAL TANGIBLE DANGER? He wouldn't, to put it frankly.

Quote: Would you agree with me that the passage you are using is Jesus talking about the end of the age? Because if you do, then you will see that Jesus is talking about persevering to the end. When saints are being persecuted for their faith, they need to stand firm so that at the end of it all they will be saved from their persecution.

He could be talking about the end of the age, He could be talking about the end of your life, he could be tlaking about BOTH since Scripture is boundless and can easily get two points acros for the price of one. But you don't know for SURE what he is talking about do you? Because you only have your own, fallible interpretation of the Bible. If you can interpret it one way and I can interpret it another, how are we supposed to know which is correct? In a perfect world where everyone was supremely honest with themselves it would be no problem, but we don't LIVE in a perfect world. There are THOUSANDS of different interpretations of the Bible. HOW DO YOU KNOW YOURS IS CORRECT?

I also thank you for arguing charitably, I hope you don't take anything I say as aggressive. This has been great.

05-13-2005, 02:28 PM	#7
uncertaindrumer USER INFO » Status: Wound Up Posts: 1,255 Joined: Dec 2004 Currently: Offline	Alright, first, God's grace is INDEED the only way we can get into Heaven, I am not arguing that. God's grace works through both Faith AND works though, and I want you to explain to me how you can say works are useless when James specifically says "You are justified by works and not by faith alone". Second, I have to think that an honest observer would see th line "Be careful lest you fall" would mean that we can ACTUALLY FALL. You are basically saying he can't. The other passages we could debate all day and never come to a conclusion. You are going to interpret it the way you want to. You say you are basing it on context but that isn't true. CLEARLY the context of being "cut off" is the loss of Grace. But still, you and I could argue about it all day long. The real question is: How do you know your interpretation is correct? How do you know mine is wrong? And sure, your Bible's commentaries are written by scholars--protestant scholars. They are going to be just as jaded as you and are going to LOOK for ways to explain away the obvious condemnation of guarunteed salvation. This is how salvation occurs: Through no action of our own, God gives us grace. We don't deserve it, but we get it. Through that grace we can both have Faith and do Good Works for the Lord, both of which are necessary. If we stop believing, or we fall into sin, we can lose that grace. We can always get it back, but we CAN lose it. And yes, to get into Heaven, our souls have to be PERFECT. It says in revelation that nothing unclean shall enter Heaven, which means nothing with Sin. Now, this is where purgatory comes in, but that is an entirely different issue. But for you to claim that you can just go around comitting sin after sin and never lose your salvation is erroneous. If that were true, the commandments would be useless, Jesus teachings to love one another would be useless, etc. etc. Quote: No, it does not mean that he will lose his salvation if he does not follow his own words. It means practicing what you preach. If he his telling people how to live and not taking his own advice, then he's being hypocritical. What you are basically saying is that we all need to be perfect Christians to get into heaven. What you are saying almost sounds like what the Pharisees believed. IT IS BY GODS GRACE THAT WE GET INTO HEAVEN NOTHING ELSE. There is no arguing that. So he says he does not stand acquitted because otherwise he will be a hypocrite? And yet, a hypocrite who will still get into heaven, right, because he is "saved"? Why on earth would he even bring this up if there was not a REAL TANGIBLE DANGER? He wouldn't, to put it frankly. Quote: Would you agree with me that the passage you are using is Jesus talking about the end of the age? Because if you do, then you will see that Jesus is talking about persevering to the end. When saints are being persecuted for their faith, they need to stand firm so that at the end of it all they will be saved from their persecution. He could be talking about the end of the age, He could be talking about the end of your life, he could be tlaking about BOTH since Scripture is boundless and can easily get two points acros for the price of one. But you don't know for SURE what he is talking about do you? Because you only have your own, fallible interpretation of the Bible. If you can interpret it one way and I can interpret it another, how are we supposed to know which is correct? In a perfect world where everyone was supremely honest with themselves it would be no problem, but we don't LIVE in a perfect world. There are THOUSANDS of different interpretations of the Bible. HOW DO YOU KNOW YOURS IS CORRECT? I also thank you for arguing charitably, I hope you don't take anything I say as aggressive. This has been great. __________________ Titans baby, Titans.