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uncertaindrumer · 05-13-2005, 11:03 AM

Quote: (Originally Posted by dario) First of all I would like to state that we cannot lose our salvation. Salvation is a gift from God, we don't deserve it, nor can we receive it by works.

"Matthew 19: 16-17

Jesus tells the man to keep the Commandments. Surely then, we must CONTINUE to keep the Commandments for our lives."

This is a good verse and I agree with your statement, but what does this verse and your statement have to do with losing your salvation? Are you saying that if we don't keep the commandments then we lose our salvation? If that is what you are saying, then wouldn't that be us doing works?
If you go on with this passage up to verse 27, you will see that, when speaking about Salvation, Jesus says, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Actually, works are QUITE necessary for salvation, seeing as James says "We are justified by works and NOT by Faith alone", so yes, if someone goes around murdering, stealing, and adulterating, they can lose their salvation. Sure, all thigns are possible with God, but it says in Revelation, "Nothing unclean shall enter heaven" (not an exact quotation). If you have sin on your soul ("the wages of sin is death") then you can't enter heaven.

Quote: "Matthew 24: 13

This one is absurdly clear. "But the one who perseveres until the end will be saved". I don't see how that allows for ANY other viewpoint."

You're right, it would be difficult to have any other viewpoint, but I will give you another one. The verses before 13 and after are speaking about the end of the age. In reference to verse 13, Jesus is not talking about Salvation. He is talking about being saved from the persecution they will receive. Jesus uses this same statement,"but he who stands firm to the end will be saved," in Matthew 10:22. My bible's commentary on this verse is this: "Standing firm to the end is not a way to be saved but the evidence that a person is really commited to Jesus. Persistence is not a means to earn salvation; it is the by-product of a truly devoted life."
Once again, I don't see how this verse refers to losing your salvation.

If Jesus meerely meant that standing firm was the "by-product" of salvation, He would have said "He who is saved will stand firm to the end". He DOESN'T say that. He clearly says "He who perseveres will be saved". Notice, he says WILL BE, as if it is something we have to continue working towards.

Quote: Romans 11: 22-23

We can indeed be cut off. Thankfully, though, if we do not persist in our unbelief, we can be grafted back on.

This is a difficult verse to interpret, but I think when you read the whole section it becomes more clear. Paul is refering to the nation of Israel in this passage, not any one individual. Abrahams faith is like the root of a productive tree, and the Jewish people are the tree's natural branches. Because of faithlessness, the Jews were the broken branches. Gentile believers have been grafted into the tree like a "wild olive shoot." Both Jews and Gentiles share the tree's nourishment based on faith in God; neither can rest on heritage or culture for salvation.

I'm sorry, but you seem to just be jumping through hoops here to get your interpretation. He clearly states that branches have been cut OFF. Now, to be cut OFF they have to be ON there in the first place. And let's get something straight here, he is not talking about "unbelief" in the Mosaic law. Paul has HAMMERED the idea that Christians need also follow the Mosaic law. He is talking about belief in Jesus Christ. And if we falter in that belief we can be CUT OFF. There is no mincing words here. Paul just SAYS that we can be cut off. This has nothing to do with Abraham. Paul says that if we are believers but then persist in unbelief, we can be cut off. Nothing complex about it.

Quote: "1 Corinthians 9: 27, 10: 12

In chapter 9, Paul says (using a race as a metaphor) "I drive my body and train it", for fear that after having preached to others, "I myself should be disqualifed". That is very clear. If PAUL is not guarunteed Salvation, no one can be."

In reference to chapter 9, I can see where you would think that one can lose their salvation from reading this verse, but you are taking it out of context. My bible's commentary on 9:27 is this: "When Paul says he might be disqualified, he does not mean that he could lose his salvation, but rather that he could lose his privilege of telling others about Christ."
The whole metaphor of running the race is about how we should live our Christian life. That involves works and Romans 11:6 says, "And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace." This proves that these verses are not referring to losing your salvation.

Your Bible's commentary has some funny ideas. Where on earth do you get the idea that he is talking about the privilege of telling others abouth Christ? It never says anything REMOTELY like that in the passage. The only interpretation an honest reader could come to is that he is seapking of Salvation; if your interpretation is correct, the pasage basically reads "for fear that after having preached to others, I may no longer be able to preach to others". That is ridiculous. It only makes sense if Paul is basically saying that he is afraid that after having preached to others, he will lose his own salvation if he does not follow his own words. Your intperpretation is just reading into the text

Quote: "In chapter ten, verse 12, he says that whoever thinks he is standing securely should take care NOT TO FALL. Obviously them it is possible for us TO fall."

Yes, it is possible for us to fall, fall into temptation. This is not referring to salvation. If you read on and before this verse, it is referring to falling into temptation. This is basically saying that when you think you are strong, then you are weak. You end up relying on your own strength and not God's, this is when you are weak.

Fall into TEMPTATION?! What on earth? If we cannot lose our salvation, who CARES if we fall into temptation. If our salvation is ASSURED, this passage i nonsense. It basically states (according to your interpretation): Be careful not to fall into temptation, but it doesn't REALLY matter because you are going to heaven anyway! There is no reason at ALL to believe this is talking about anything other than threat to your salvation. Unless it is a threat to salvation, why worry that we may fall? Because we will still go right to Heaven.

Quote: "2 Peter 2: 20-21

This is yet another painfully clear passage that asserts once again, we can indeed fall away from Grace."

Peter is speaking of a person who has learned about Christ and how to be saved, and has even been positively influenced by Christians, but then rejects the truth and returns to his or her sin. This person is worse off than before, because they rejected the only means of salvation.

For the first time, I can actually envision a scenario where your interpretation could make sense: Someone finds out he needs to be saved and then doesn't do it. All alone, you might be able to explain this verse away. But in conjunction with all the other Bilical passages clearly stating we can lose our salvation if we fall into sin, this passage certainly only helps the idea.

Quote: Once again I believe that you cannot lose your salvation, but I think you have to call into question a persons initial proclamation into the faith. Please continue to post if you disagree. One other thing, how do I quote somebody without copy and paste. Thanks.

"Be still and know that I am God."

You press the "reply with quote" link. Also, if you have to call into question someone's initial proclomation of faith, they areen't REALLY guarunteed, are they, since you willl never TRUELY know whether or not it was a real declaration of Faith? Frankly, the protestant position on this jsut doesn't make any sense at all. If one believes in Christ, declares him to be their personal Lord and Savior, they are saved. And then they can go murder civilizations, commit countless adulteries, start blaspheming God, and they are STILL SAVED because one can't lose your salvation. Or, you could say "well they weren't saved in the first place". Well if they weren't saved in the first place, what if someone who isn't saved in the firt place lives a fine life thinking he is saved, but isn't? Well, then you say "He WAS saved in the first place". Well, frankly, I find this an amazing position, and one clearly has to start reading the Bible with that intention ALREADY IN MIND, because an honest reading of the Bible would produce no such confusing, and completely strange doctrine.

But please, continue to post if you somehow feel otherwise. This has been interesting.

05-13-2005, 11:03 AM	#5
uncertaindrumer USER INFO » Status: Wound Up Posts: 1,255 Joined: Dec 2004 Currently: Offline	Quote: (Originally Posted by dario) First of all I would like to state that we cannot lose our salvation. Salvation is a gift from God, we don't deserve it, nor can we receive it by works. "Matthew 19: 16-17 Jesus tells the man to keep the Commandments. Surely then, we must CONTINUE to keep the Commandments for our lives." This is a good verse and I agree with your statement, but what does this verse and your statement have to do with losing your salvation? Are you saying that if we don't keep the commandments then we lose our salvation? If that is what you are saying, then wouldn't that be us doing works? If you go on with this passage up to verse 27, you will see that, when speaking about Salvation, Jesus says, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." Actually, works are QUITE necessary for salvation, seeing as James says "We are justified by works and NOT by Faith alone", so yes, if someone goes around murdering, stealing, and adulterating, they can lose their salvation. Sure, all thigns are possible with God, but it says in Revelation, "Nothing unclean shall enter heaven" (not an exact quotation). If you have sin on your soul ("the wages of sin is death") then you can't enter heaven. Quote: "Matthew 24: 13 This one is absurdly clear. "But the one who perseveres until the end will be saved". I don't see how that allows for ANY other viewpoint." You're right, it would be difficult to have any other viewpoint, but I will give you another one. The verses before 13 and after are speaking about the end of the age. In reference to verse 13, Jesus is not talking about Salvation. He is talking about being saved from the persecution they will receive. Jesus uses this same statement,"but he who stands firm to the end will be saved," in Matthew 10:22. My bible's commentary on this verse is this: "Standing firm to the end is not a way to be saved but the evidence that a person is really commited to Jesus. Persistence is not a means to earn salvation; it is the by-product of a truly devoted life." Once again, I don't see how this verse refers to losing your salvation. If Jesus meerely meant that standing firm was the "by-product" of salvation, He would have said "He who is saved will stand firm to the end". He DOESN'T say that. He clearly says "He who perseveres will be saved". Notice, he says WILL BE, as if it is something we have to continue working towards. Quote: Romans 11: 22-23 We can indeed be cut off. Thankfully, though, if we do not persist in our unbelief, we can be grafted back on. This is a difficult verse to interpret, but I think when you read the whole section it becomes more clear. Paul is refering to the nation of Israel in this passage, not any one individual. Abrahams faith is like the root of a productive tree, and the Jewish people are the tree's natural branches. Because of faithlessness, the Jews were the broken branches. Gentile believers have been grafted into the tree like a "wild olive shoot." Both Jews and Gentiles share the tree's nourishment based on faith in God; neither can rest on heritage or culture for salvation. I'm sorry, but you seem to just be jumping through hoops here to get your interpretation. He clearly states that branches have been cut OFF. Now, to be cut OFF they have to be ON there in the first place. And let's get something straight here, he is not talking about "unbelief" in the Mosaic law. Paul has HAMMERED the idea that Christians need also follow the Mosaic law. He is talking about belief in Jesus Christ. And if we falter in that belief we can be CUT OFF. There is no mincing words here. Paul just SAYS that we can be cut off. This has nothing to do with Abraham. Paul says that if we are believers but then persist in unbelief, we can be cut off. Nothing complex about it. Quote: "1 Corinthians 9: 27, 10: 12 In chapter 9, Paul says (using a race as a metaphor) "I drive my body and train it", for fear that after having preached to others, "I myself should be disqualifed". That is very clear. If PAUL is not guarunteed Salvation, no one can be." In reference to chapter 9, I can see where you would think that one can lose their salvation from reading this verse, but you are taking it out of context. My bible's commentary on 9:27 is this: "When Paul says he might be disqualified, he does not mean that he could lose his salvation, but rather that he could lose his privilege of telling others about Christ." The whole metaphor of running the race is about how we should live our Christian life. That involves works and Romans 11:6 says, "And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace." This proves that these verses are not referring to losing your salvation. Your Bible's commentary has some funny ideas. Where on earth do you get the idea that he is talking about the privilege of telling others abouth Christ? It never says anything REMOTELY like that in the passage. The only interpretation an honest reader could come to is that he is seapking of Salvation; if your interpretation is correct, the pasage basically reads "for fear that after having preached to others, I may no longer be able to preach to others". That is ridiculous. It only makes sense if Paul is basically saying that he is afraid that after having preached to others, he will lose his own salvation if he does not follow his own words. Your intperpretation is just reading into the text Quote: "In chapter ten, verse 12, he says that whoever thinks he is standing securely should take care NOT TO FALL. Obviously them it is possible for us TO fall." Yes, it is possible for us to fall, fall into temptation. This is not referring to salvation. If you read on and before this verse, it is referring to falling into temptation. This is basically saying that when you think you are strong, then you are weak. You end up relying on your own strength and not God's, this is when you are weak. Fall into TEMPTATION?! What on earth? If we cannot lose our salvation, who CARES if we fall into temptation. If our salvation is ASSURED, this passage i nonsense. It basically states (according to your interpretation): Be careful not to fall into temptation, but it doesn't REALLY matter because you are going to heaven anyway! There is no reason at ALL to believe this is talking about anything other than threat to your salvation. Unless it is a threat to salvation, why worry that we may fall? Because we will still go right to Heaven. Quote: "2 Peter 2: 20-21 This is yet another painfully clear passage that asserts once again, we can indeed fall away from Grace." Peter is speaking of a person who has learned about Christ and how to be saved, and has even been positively influenced by Christians, but then rejects the truth and returns to his or her sin. This person is worse off than before, because they rejected the only means of salvation. For the first time, I can actually envision a scenario where your interpretation could make sense: Someone finds out he needs to be saved and then doesn't do it. All alone, you might be able to explain this verse away. But in conjunction with all the other Bilical passages clearly stating we can lose our salvation if we fall into sin, this passage certainly only helps the idea. Quote: Once again I believe that you cannot lose your salvation, but I think you have to call into question a persons initial proclamation into the faith. Please continue to post if you disagree. One other thing, how do I quote somebody without copy and paste. Thanks. "Be still and know that I am God." You press the "reply with quote" link. Also, if you have to call into question someone's initial proclomation of faith, they areen't REALLY guarunteed, are they, since you willl never TRUELY know whether or not it was a real declaration of Faith? Frankly, the protestant position on this jsut doesn't make any sense at all. If one believes in Christ, declares him to be their personal Lord and Savior, they are saved. And then they can go murder civilizations, commit countless adulteries, start blaspheming God, and they are STILL SAVED because one can't lose your salvation. Or, you could say "well they weren't saved in the first place". Well if they weren't saved in the first place, what if someone who isn't saved in the firt place lives a fine life thinking he is saved, but isn't? Well, then you say "He WAS saved in the first place". Well, frankly, I find this an amazing position, and one clearly has to start reading the Bible with that intention ALREADY IN MIND, because an honest reading of the Bible would produce no such confusing, and completely strange doctrine. But please, continue to post if you somehow feel otherwise. This has been interesting. __________________ Titans baby, Titans.