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Higher_Desire · 12-31-2004, 07:52 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by aussiecreeder) i understand fully what you are saying but i do not see the mormonism is a return to truth like luther, calvin and others were for their day. luther and his contempories were rebelling against the catholic church and how tradition had become more important than what the scriptures say. they did not add new doctrines like joseph smith so clearly did. furthermore the new testament instructs us to test all spirits and prophets. how is one supposed to test smith when we can't translate the language fully? it is impossible to verify the truth or otherwise of his sayings other than on blind faith.

I understand what you mean about how it seems odd that in this case scripture was added, but if the story is true (as I believe it), then the full truth was not the earth, and therefore had to be brought to light, or, so to speak, fill in the holes. Absolutely one must test spirits and prophets, but we also cannot prove everything there is to know about the Bible, either. Testing spirits has a lot to do with feeling. Somewhere in the Bible (can't remember where right now) it says that if something is true, you will feel a "burning in your bosom." That's what people must test with the BoM, too. I've known people of other religions that were devout to that religion and became Mormon. I also know 3 people who were stongly anti-Momons and anti-Mormon activists that became converted. They all say they felt that burning in the bosom that only comes from asking God if something is true or not.

Quote: (Originally Posted by aussiecreeder) the bible never instructs blind faith and reasoning is certainly not excluded from faith and quite the opposite in fact.

I don't remember saying that reasoning was excluded from faith or anything about blind faith. But in a literal sence, everyone who believes in God is following blind faith (in a sense). I mean, have you ever seen God? Has anyone you know ever seen God? I know I haven't seen him. All we're going on is what the Bible says and we believe to be true. Faith (in a religious sense) is blind because you're putting all of your trust in something you have not physically seen to exist. Though, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that blind faith is everything. Personally, I don't look as faith as blind.

Quote: (Originally Posted by aussiecreeder) if smith was so sure of the truth of what he said he shouldn't have acted in the way he did. have a look at christ when he rebuked peter for cutting the ear off a soldier and how he had no fear before pilate or as the roman soliders spat on him and treated him like a dog. why do we need a secondary authority like the book of mormon when 2 timothy 3:16 saids that all scripture is useful for teaching, rebuking......and revelation instructs not to add or take away from the holy scriptures and this is added instruction?

anyhow see ya round and have a good new years.....

As for why we need a second authority like the BoM, it may be debatable that we don't, but it's support. The way I have heard it before, the bible and BoM are like nails. When you use one nail to hold a board to the wall, you can, but the board will spin. Having two puts another nail into the board holds is firmly in place (ie, like you life).

Yes, Revelation does say not to add or take away from scripture. But there are two things you must remember: first, the Bible is not arranged in chronological order. When the Romans arranged it, they did it in order of what they thought was important. Hence, after the five gospels they had (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts of the Apostles) they put the book of the Romans. With that being historically true, isn't it true that any book of the bible written after it would therefore be wrong? Also, what has also been said (by someone who was NOT Mormon, and I can't remember his name, but he was a Bible scholar) was that John could be talking about that if HIS teachings were changed. He was shown many things by the Lord (especially in Revelation) and if those things are changed or left out, then hellfire would rain upon us.

H-D

12-31-2004, 07:52 PM	#31
Higher_Desire USER INFO » Status: Found Peace Posts: 8,631 Joined: Apr 2003 Currently: Offline	Quote: (Originally Posted by aussiecreeder) i understand fully what you are saying but i do not see the mormonism is a return to truth like luther, calvin and others were for their day. luther and his contempories were rebelling against the catholic church and how tradition had become more important than what the scriptures say. they did not add new doctrines like joseph smith so clearly did. furthermore the new testament instructs us to test all spirits and prophets. how is one supposed to test smith when we can't translate the language fully? it is impossible to verify the truth or otherwise of his sayings other than on blind faith. I understand what you mean about how it seems odd that in this case scripture was added, but if the story is true (as I believe it), then the full truth was not the earth, and therefore had to be brought to light, or, so to speak, fill in the holes. Absolutely one must test spirits and prophets, but we also cannot prove everything there is to know about the Bible, either. Testing spirits has a lot to do with feeling. Somewhere in the Bible (can't remember where right now) it says that if something is true, you will feel a "burning in your bosom." That's what people must test with the BoM, too. I've known people of other religions that were devout to that religion and became Mormon. I also know 3 people who were stongly anti-Momons and anti-Mormon activists that became converted. They all say they felt that burning in the bosom that only comes from asking God if something is true or not. Quote: (Originally Posted by aussiecreeder) the bible never instructs blind faith and reasoning is certainly not excluded from faith and quite the opposite in fact. I don't remember saying that reasoning was excluded from faith or anything about blind faith. But in a literal sence, everyone who believes in God is following blind faith (in a sense). I mean, have you ever seen God? Has anyone you know ever seen God? I know I haven't seen him. All we're going on is what the Bible says and we believe to be true. Faith (in a religious sense) is blind because you're putting all of your trust in something you have not physically seen to exist. Though, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that blind faith is everything. Personally, I don't look as faith as blind. Quote: (Originally Posted by aussiecreeder) if smith was so sure of the truth of what he said he shouldn't have acted in the way he did. have a look at christ when he rebuked peter for cutting the ear off a soldier and how he had no fear before pilate or as the roman soliders spat on him and treated him like a dog. why do we need a secondary authority like the book of mormon when 2 timothy 3:16 saids that all scripture is useful for teaching, rebuking......and revelation instructs not to add or take away from the holy scriptures and this is added instruction? anyhow see ya round and have a good new years..... As for why we need a second authority like the BoM, it may be debatable that we don't, but it's support. The way I have heard it before, the bible and BoM are like nails. When you use one nail to hold a board to the wall, you can, but the board will spin. Having two puts another nail into the board holds is firmly in place (ie, like you life). Yes, Revelation does say not to add or take away from scripture. But there are two things you must remember: first, the Bible is not arranged in chronological order. When the Romans arranged it, they did it in order of what they thought was important. Hence, after the five gospels they had (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts of the Apostles) they put the book of the Romans. With that being historically true, isn't it true that any book of the bible written after it would therefore be wrong? Also, what has also been said (by someone who was NOT Mormon, and I can't remember his name, but he was a Bible scholar) was that John could be talking about that if HIS teachings were changed. He was shown many things by the Lord (especially in Revelation) and if those things are changed or left out, then hellfire would rain upon us. H-D __________________ Today I'm gonna try a little harder Gonna make every minute last longer Gonna learn to forgive and forget 'Cause we don't have long Gonna make the most of it Today I'm gonna love my enemies Reach out to somebody who needs me Make a change, make the world a better place 'Cause tomorrow could be one day too late --lyrics from "One Day Too Late" by Skillet from their new album "Awake"