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Old 04-09-2006, 12:28 AM   #61
SecretWeapon
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Re: Atheism growing in America

Quote: (Originally Posted by Lunar Shadow) You have just admited that there is a natual moral law, Thank you for coming to you senses. now lets just say for one second here that "god" created natual moral law. There are pleanty of people who don't believe in god nor do they believe in your god but they lead moral lives. Christians believe that there are people who will never hear god but they still live a moral life why is that? it is because morality is inherent therefore the arguemnt of god is superfulous because it (morality) is built in to the system.

If you look at animals they also have moral codes weather it be chimps, bird, or bees... They ALL demonstrate altruism in one matter or another.... every animal demonstrates altruism at some point or another when they are parents therefore morality is not unique to humans it is natual and inherent, built in to the system weather your god put it there or not doen't matter because it is there and you don't have to believe in a god to be moral bacause I highly doubt that a honey bee knows who or what god is let alone ponders it on a daily basis.


now to apply Occum's Razor to the question of god.... Now Occum's Razor states that the explainations with the fewest X factors (unknows) is gonna be the most correct.



Morality (or, for the sake of argument, a sensitivity towards others)
is a system that is found inherintly in all conscious beings, a result of
a sense of awareness, a sense of value, and a sense of reciprocity.

Anacondas steal and eat helpless baby animals from their parents.
They don't mate for life, they mate with several (strange) partners
at a time.
They also have eaten their own stillborn babies.
They abandon their young at birth. (They don't eat them, because,
theoretically, instict forbids them from destroying their own race)
They die for no conscious purpose, they die because they can't help it.
(in other words, they aren't self-sacraficial)

Now you can argue that the fact they that don't eat their own young
proves a natural moral law, but that one trait is a far cry from the
"human level" of morality. The rest of their lives and actions seem
moral-less.

All carnivores kill and eat. The vast majority of the time, with no
obvious remorse.

Wolves live in a hierarchy, not moral order. The pack consists of the
Alpha-Male (father) and the Alpha Female (mother) the rest of the pack
are their children. Occasionaly, there will be straglers in the pack, but
they are at the bottom of the pecking order, they eat last, etc.
The pack members are kept together and in order by nessecity and
aggression. Normally, no pack members are allowed to mate except
the Alpha male and female.

Bees work together for a common good because, if they don't they will
all die within a very short time.

You can say that animals prove a natural moral law, but they really
don't. If I walked up and bit your leg because you ate before I did,
I'd feel really bad because I really ove-reacted because of such a
stupid thing. But wolves do it. If I went outside and took some baby
chicks out of a nest, and cooked and ate them in front of the mother
bird, I wouldn't feel very good about myself. But alot of snakes do just
that (sans cooking).

Spiders wrap up their prey in webbing and leave them there alive
until they feel like sucking the bugs guts out. Is that moral?

A certain fly will lay it's egg(or larvae) inside a fireants head and the
young fly will grow until the ants head explodes. Is that moral?

Black widow spiders will eat the male after mating with him, if he
is no longer useful for mating. Is that moral?

Chimpanzees will attack individual chimpanzees from another family
and brutally kill it. (They rip the genitals out, &c) Moral?

Yes, certain pack animals are loyal. Dogs will die for their masters/friends,
bees will die for their hives. Ants for their colonies.

But this does little more than exibit a sense of instict, which keeps their
race alive. It does not explain how humans dislike someone looking at
them without smiling, dislike being lied to, dislike half-truths, dislike
being cussed out or getting "the finger", dislike being belittled.


Quote: now thinking about all the X factors that are required to justify god being reposible for morality...

Has to have a vested interest in the world
He created it, gave man the Bible, etc.
Quote: Has to have an Emotional interest in the world
The Christian-Jewish God does, obviously.
Quote: Has to be real (exist)
Christians believe Him to be.
Quote: Has to be activly involved
Is
Quote: (none of the are provable therefore they are X factors)

VS.

god is not responsible for morlaity in anyway
(hmmm no real X factors here)

-something else is
-nothing is

^X factors
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