[RalphyS]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chase)

Yeah... but this was an isolated incident that took place nearly three years ago. How is this story still relevent? Everybody who participated in those events are going through the judicial system as we speak... or are even in military prisons. This is an irregularity within the United States military. The United States doesn't advocate torture. Abu Ghraib was simply mismanaged, bottom line. It's not like some top general was sitting there instructing these soldiers to do this stuff. There are probably more pictures that the media has had access to for years... but will only release during times of great turmoil. The cartoon incident presented the anti-American (or at least anti-war) media with the perfect opportunity to incite some uprisings.

Actually it was not an isolated incident, the USA currently has a history of being very leniant with international law, or do simply not want to be included in it, and the international view of what torture constitutes. A report released by an independent UN-panel called Guantanamo "effectively a torture camp where prisoners have no access to justice." To the outside world, even your allies, this does look like the USA advocates torture, that it is not as bad as the practices of the enemy does not condone it. Torture is still torture in any measure. Also I do not believe that the media did have access earlier and held on to the pictures, because they have their own agenda. This is once again the bias (meaning b.s.) about the liberal media.
Furthermore do I believe that the military men and women in Abu Ghraib did not just think, 'come on, let's torture some Arabs'. Guantanamo and the methods used give a clear impression of, at the very least, not taking the rules of the Geneva conventions too narrowly and that impression is given from the top down.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chase)

My friends and family are serving this nation with honor and dignity and for people to equate them to these few, sadistic soldiers, is borderline offensive. For decades, Americans have fought to end torture, tyranny, and oppression... and you all are well aware of that. Yes, there have been blemishes in our system and history... but as a whole, our military is full of honorable men and women.

No-one ever said that everyone in the military is a torturer or a sadist. The military is probably just like society, there are good and bad people in it and many in between. Ofcourse as a soldier, you do get involved in a lot of extreme situations and we don't know how any of us would react in certain situations. The new images of British soldiers beating and killing Iraqi youths do once again prove that the behaviour of the coalition force is not always up to par. Surely they were provoked, but as I stated earlier, if we want to take the moral highground, we do have to behave accordingly and not slip into the atrocities that the enemy is using.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chase)

If it wasn't for the United States... Europe may have still been split into two factions: a Soviet, communist bloc in the East... and a Nazi, national socialist bloc in the West. We are capable of doing honorable things to help other people. Our government has condemned the Abu Ghraib incident... and has brought justice forth against those who did this. What more do people want? Is there a necessary reason in prolonging this story? No. There isn't. But hey, if it incites more anti-American sentiment... the media is all for it.

For someone, who just mentioned that something that happened 3 years ago isn't relevant anymore, you do like to drag up things that happened over half a century ago and judge it like you want to. If the French hadn't helped you in your revolutionary war, you would probably still be a British colony is another statement I could make about if this or that had never happened. Do you still view the acts of the current French government in light of their help in your revolution?

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chase)

We're a nation ran by immigrants and the descendents of immigrants. Americans aren't stupid. We know how our military is and we, for the most part, know the difference between right and wrong. If the media is convincing people overseas that torture is a consistent policy of our's... then we have a major problem. We follow the Geneva Conventions... and while I condemn the torture in Abu Ghraib, if these were guys who were armed militants... then they aren't covered by the Conventions. If these were the types of guys who have been capturing Westerners for years and beheading them... then the Conventions don't apply to them. That's where a lot of people have mixed feelings on this topic. I've heard countless Americans say: "We'll at least they still have their heads." If some of these guys were innocent people... then I find this even more disturbing. However, if these were terrorists... how bad should I really feel for them? If humiliation is the worst of their problems... then should I really feel bad for them? In our military prison in Cuba, the imprisoned terrorists are offended by having female prison guards. The issue of legality is very debatable. All people can really do is complain.

You have a president, who keeps abusing the word "War", first we had the "War on drugs", now we have the "War on terror", but if prisoners are being taken in this "War", they are not prisoners of war, but they are 'enemy combatants', who don't fall under the Geneva conventions, yet they also don't seem to fall under the judiciary process of the USA or other international laws. You cannot have it both ways, Bush calls it a war, than they are prisoners of war and should be treated accordingly. The international condemnation of Guantanamo is not based on the fact that they use female prison guards, that is a load of sh.t (pardon my French) and you know it.

Once again just because the 'enemy' doesn't play by the rules, doesn't make it right for 'us' to do the same. This is exactly the place where we should draw the line. You are defending the western values and the western values as I love them exclude even the slightest possibility of torturous activity and include the possibility to judiciary access to some sort of court for everyone, if we move away from these values, there is nothing left to defend.

Is it hard living up to that standard, when fighting people who will resort to anything, undoubtedly, but the end does not condone all means and the only way to (re)gain respect is to use the highest standards at all times.