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Moti 03-24-2004 08:07 PM

The Scientists Bluff Exposed
 
Hello, my name is Moti, it's great to visit your forum. The following is a sample of a brilliant critique of the dominant policies, theories and presuppositions of modern science and scientists by the world-famous saint, cultural ambassador, scholar and social reformer His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.



I'm posting it for general discussion.





THE SCIENTISTS BLUFF EXPOSED



[Srila Prabhupada is accompanied by Dr. Singh, Karandhara dasa adhikari, Brahmananda Svami and other students. Recorded on April 19, 1973, in Cheviot Hills Park, Los Angeles]





Karandhara: Recently, there was an issue that some people wanted that the theory that God created the earth and the species to be taught in schools along with Darwin's theory.



Prabhupada: Yes.



Karandhara: But the, it was defeated because the scientists said: "If we make such a statement in our schools, everyone will take us as fools."



Prabhupada: What is that? I could not follow. Eh?



Karandhara: A group of, a group of people wanted that in school they should also teach that God created the earth and the people...



Prabhupada: Yes.



Karandhara: Not just say that it was created by chance, random biology. But scientists objected, said: "We cannot say that God created the earth because then everyone will take us as fools." And they defeated the measure. The scientists said "Everyone knows. The earth is just created by biological chemistry. If we say that God created the earth, everyone will think us as fools." Modern proponents of Darwinism say that the first living organism was created chemically.



Srila Prabhupada. And I say to them, "If life originated from chemicals, and if your science is so advanced, then why can't you create life bio chemically in your laboratories?"





IN THE FUTURE





Karandhara. They say they will create life in the future.


Srila Prabhupada. What future? When this crucial point is raised, they reply, "We shall do it in the future." Why in the future? That is nonsense. "Trust no future, however pleasant." If they are so advanced, they must demonstrate now how life can be created from chemicals. Otherwise what is the meaning of their advancement? They are talking nonsense.


Karandhara. They say that they are right on the verge of creating life.


Srila Prabhupada. That's only a different way of saying the same thing: "In the future." The scientists must admit that they still do not know the origin of life. Their claim that they will soon prove a chemical origin of life is something like paying someone with a postdated check. Suppose I give you a postdated check for ten thousand dollars but I actually have no money. What is the value of that check? Scientists are claiming that their science is wonderful, but when a practical example is wanted, they say they will provide it in the future. Suppose I say that I possess millions of dollars, and when you ask me for some money I say, "Yes, I will now give you a big postdated check. Is that all right?" If you are intelligent, you will reply, "At present give me at least five dollars in cash so I can see something tangible." Similarly, the scientists cannot produce even a single blade of grass in their laboratories, yet they are claiming that life is produced from chemicals. What is this nonsense? Is no one questioning this?


Karandhara. They say that life is produced by chemical laws.


Srila Prabhupada. As soon as there is a law, we must take into consideration that someone made the law. Despite all their so-called advancement, the scientists in their laboratories cannot produce even a blade of grass. What kind of scientists are they?


Dr. Singh. They say that in the ultimate analysis, everything came from matter. Living matter came from nonliving matter.


Srila Prabhupada. Then where is this living matter coming from now? Do the scientists say that life came from matter in the past but does not at the present? Where is the ant coming from now--from the dirt?





THE MISSING LINK





Dr. Singh. In fact, there are several theories explaining how life originated from matter, how living matter came from the nonliving.


Srila Prabhupada. [casting Dr. Singh in the role of a materialistic scientist]. All right, scientist, why is life not coming from matter now? You rascal. Why isn't life coming from matter now? Actually such scientists are rascals. They childishly say that life came from matter, although they are not at all able to prove it. Our Krsna consciousness movement should expose all these rascals. They are only bluffing. Why don't they create life immediately? In the past, they say, life arose from matter; and they say that this will happen again in the future. They even say that they will create life from matter. What kind of theory is this? They have already commented that life began from matter. This refers to the past--"began." Then why do they now speak of the future? Is it not contradictory? They are expecting the past to occur in the future. This is childish nonsense.


Karandhara. They say that life arose from matter in the past and that they will create life this way in the future.


Srila Prabhupada. What is this nonsense? If they cannot prove that life arises from matter in the present, how do they know life arose this way in the past?


Dr. Singh. They are assuming...


Srila Prabhupada. Everyone can assume, but this is not science. Everyone can assume something. You can assume something, I can assume something. But there must be proof. We can prove that life arises from life. For example, a father begets a child. The father is living, and the child is living. But where is their proof that a father can be a dead stone? Where is their proof? We can easily prove that life begins from life. And the original life is Krsna. That also can be proven. But what evidence exists that a child is born of stone? They cannot actually prove that life comes from matter. They are leaving that aside for the future. [Laughter.]


Karandhara. The scientists say that they can now formulate acids, amino acids, that are almost like one-celled living organisms. They say that because these acids so closely resemble living beings, there must be just one missing link needed before they can create life.


Srila Prabhupada. Nonsense! Missing link. I'll challenge them to their face! [Laughter.] They are missing this challenge. The missing link is this challenge to their face.






* THE HARE KRISHNA SAINT TORTURED AND POISONED TO DEATH BY HIS JUDAS DISCIPLES


http://members.lycos.co.uk/prabhupad...p_poisoned.htm







* MATERIALISTIC SCIENTISTS EXPOSED BY THE HARE KRISHNA SAINT



http://members.lycos.co.uk/spexpose/








* WHAT IS KRISHNA CONCIOUSNESS?



http://members.lycos.co.uk/prabhupad...kc/what_kc.htm







* PRABHUPADA Your ever well wisher



http://members.lycos.co.uk/prabhupada1/

Moti 03-24-2004 08:08 PM

Cont...........



NOBEL PRIZE FOR AN ASS



Dr. Singh. Some scientists hope that in the future they will be able to make babies in test tubes.


Srila Prabhupada. Test tubes?


Dr. Singh. Yes, they intend to combine male and female elements in biological laboratories.


Srila Prabhupada. If they begin with living entities, what is the purpose of the test tube? It is only a place for combination, but so is the womb. Where is the credit for the scientists if this is already being done in nature's test tube?


Karandhara. It is already being done by nature, but when some scientist does it, people will give him the Nobel Prize.


Srila Prabhupada. Yes, that is stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam: sva-vid-varahostra-kharaih samstutah purusah pasuh.[4] This verse indicates that those who praise men who are like animals are no better than dogs, hogs, camels and asses. Sva means "dog," vid-varaha means "stool-eating hog," ustra means "camel," and khara means "ass." If the Nobel Prize is given to a scientist who is a rascal, the men on the committee who give him that prize are no better than dogs, hogs, camels and asses. We don't accept them as human beings. One animal is praised by another animal. Where is the credit in that? If the men on the committee are no better than animals, anyone who receives the Nobel Prize in science is fool number one, because animals are praising him, not human beings.


Dr. Singh. For some scientists, the Nobel Prize is the ultimate.


Srila Prabhupada. They are rascals. They are speaking nonsense, and because they are juggling words, others are being misled.


Brahmananda Swami. Nobel is the person who invented dynamite.


Srila Prabhupada. He has created great misfortune, and he has left his money for creating further misfortune. [Laughter.]


Brahmananda Swami. The Gita says that demoniac people perform acts meant to destroy the world.


Srila Prabhupada. Yes. Ugra-karmanah ksayaya jagato 'hitah (Bg. 16.9). They perform acts meant for inauspiciousness and the destruction of the world.





THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE LIVING AND THE NONE LIVING



[Srila Prabhupada points at a dead tree with his cane.]


Srila Prabhupada. Formerly leaves and twigs were growing from this tree. Now they are not. How would the scientists explain this?


Karandhara. They would say the tree's chemical composition has changed.


Srila Prabhupada. To prove that theory, they must be able to inject the proper chemicals to make branches and leaves grow again. The scientific method includes observation, hypothesis and then demonstration. Then it is perfect. But the scientists cannot actually demonstrate in their laboratories that life comes from matter. They simply observe and then speak nonsense. They are like children. In our childhood, we observed a gramophone box and thought that within the box was a man singing, an electric man. We thought there must have been an electric man or some kind of ghost in it. [Laughter.]


Dr. Singh. One of the popular questions that arises when we start studying biology is "What is the difference between a living organism and that which is not living?" The textbooks say that the chief characteristics that distinguish the two are that a living being can move and reproduce, whereas dead matter can do neither. But the books never talk about the nature of the soul or about the consciousness of the living entity.


Srila Prabhupada. But consciousness is the primary indication that life is present. Only because of consciousness can a living being move and reproduce. Because a person is conscious, he thinks of marrying, and begetting children. And the original consciousness is described in the Vedas: tad aiksata bahu syam (Chandogya Upanisad 6.2.3). This means that God, the original conscious being, said, "I shall become many." Without consciousness, there is no possibility of by-products.





THE INDIVIDUAL LIVING FORCE



Srila Prabhupada. The gardeners supply water to the green trees, so why don't they supply water to this dead tree and make it green?


Dr. Singh. From experience they know that it will not grow.


Srila Prabhupada. Then what is the element that is lacking? Scientists say that chemicals are the cause of life, but all the chemicals that were present when the tree was alive are still there. And these chemicals are still supporting the lives of many living entities such as microbes and insects. So they cannot say that life energy is lacking in the body of the tree. The life energy is there.


Dr. Singh. But what about the life energy of the tree itself?


Srila Prabhupada. Yes, that is the difference. The living force is individual, and the particular individual living entity that was the tree has left. This must be the case, since all the chemicals necessary to support life are still there, yet the tree is dead. Here is another example. Suppose I am living in an apartment, and then I leave it. I am gone, but many other living entities remain there--ants, spiders and so forth. So it is not true that simply because I have left the apartment, it can no longer accommodate life. Other living entities are still living there. It is simply that I--an individual living being--have left. The chemicals in the tree are like the apartment: they are simply the environment for the individual force--the soul--to act through. And the soul is an individual. I am an individual, and therefore I may leave the apartment. Similarly, the microbes are also individuals; they have individual consciousness. If they are moving in one direction but are somehow blocked, they think, "Let me go the other way." They have personality.


Karandhara. But in a dead body there is no personality.


Srila Prabhupada. This indicates that the individual soul has left that body. The soul has left, and therefore the tree does not grow.





MINIMUM WORDS MAXIMUM SOLUTION



Srila Prabhupada. The individual soul is never lost. He does not die, nor is he born. He simply changes from one body to another, just as one changes garments. This is perfect science.


Dr. Singh. But why don't scientists accept this?


Srila Prabhupada. They are not nice men. They are rascals. They are not even gentlemen. Under appropriate circumstances, gentlemen will have some shyness or some shame. But these men are shameless. They cannot properly answer our challenges, yet they shamelessly claim that they are scientists and that they will create life. They are not even gentlemen. At least I regard them like that. A gentleman will be ashamed to speak nonsense


Dr. Singh. They do not think before they speak.


Srila Prabhupada. That means that they are not human beings. A human being thinks twice before saying anything. Krsna makes the presence of life within the body so easy to understand. He says:



dehino 'smin yatha dehe
kaumaram yauvanam jara
tatha dehantara-praptir
dhiras tatra na muhyati



["As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change." (Bg. 2.13)] In these two lines, Krsna solves the whole biological problem. That is knowledge. Minimum words, maximum solution. Volumes of books expounding nonsense have no meaning. Materialistic scientists are like croaking frogs: ka-ka-ka, ka-ka-ka. [Srila Prabhupada imitates the sound of a croaking frog, and the others laugh.] The frogs are thinking, "Oh, we are talking very nicely," but the result is that the snake finds them and says, "Oh, here is a nice frog!" [Srila Prabhupada imitates the sound of a snake eating a frog.] Bup! Finished. When death comes, everything is finished. The materialistic scientists are croaking--ka-ka-ka--but when death comes, their scientific industry is finished, and they become dogs, cats or something like that.





* THE HARE KRISHNA SAINT TORTURED AND POISONED TO DEATH BY HIS JUDAS DISCIPLES


http://members.lycos.co.uk/prabhupad...p_poisoned.htm







* MATERIALISTIC SCIENTISTS EXPOSED BY THE HARE KRISHNA SAINT



http://members.lycos.co.uk/spexpose/








* WHAT IS KRISHNA CONCIOUSNESS?



http://members.lycos.co.uk/prabhupad...kc/what_kc.htm







* PRABHUPADA Your ever well wisher



http://members.lycos.co.uk/prabhupada1/

hayley 03-24-2004 10:26 PM

Okay, welcome to the board, but sorry it was too long to read, and there were too many big words. :peace: :)

Good to have you here, though Mulletman and Jango will love you

JulieCitySlicker 03-24-2004 10:45 PM

I agree with Hayley ;)
It would take me 3 hours to read all that :eek: :o :D

hayley 03-24-2004 11:00 PM

I rekon, and I would have to have a dictionary with me

creedsister 03-24-2004 11:13 PM

Read it
 
welcome monti, wow that was long, but it wont take me that long to reply to your post, Man verses God, They will try and try, and if they ever do create life in a tube, It Would be Without Soul, and to be without love or mercy, only to be controled, Loved your Post, Take This For thought, What if these people Could Bring back the Dead, like A Carbon copy Of a Lost loved one, Hummm That Would Be A nice trick Would,nt It, ROCK ON,

TeriB19 03-25-2004 09:24 AM

Hey could you try posting something a little longer next time?

aussiecreeder 03-25-2004 10:03 AM

ummm interestering long but interestering you appeared to be taking the creationist viewpoint until that last section there with test tube babies. Here are a couple of links worth reading.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2004/0324ark.asp
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home...uppression.asp

Moti 03-25-2004 12:47 PM

I'm sorry if some of you found the post a little long. It had some solid points though don't you think? This bluff [life coming from chemicals] is the basis of all the research that the scientists perform and for that the people have to pay billions in taxes to these fools.

Here's another little quote:

"The frog in the well" logic illustrates that a frog residing in the atmosphere and boundary of a well cannot imagine the length and breadth of the gigantic ocean. Such a frog, when informed of the gigantic length and breadth of the ocean, first of all does not believe that there is such an ocean, and if someone assures him that factually there is such a thing, the frog then begins to measure it by imagination by means of pumping its belly as far as possible, with the result that the tiny abdomen of the frog bursts and the poor frog dies without any experience of the actual ocean. Similarly, the material scientists also want to challenge the inconceivable potency of the Lord by measuring Him with their froglike brains and their scientific achievements, but at the end they simply die unsuccessfully, like the frog.

[Srila Prabhupada from Srimad Bhagavatam 2.5.10]

Note: So the scientists first of all have to be realistic about their actual position. Unless something can be understood by their tiny frog like brains they deny it. First the atheistic scientist need to be a little humble, like Einstein, he acknowledged the Supreme Controller:

The scientists also admit that the nature's law is so systematic. Even Professor Einstein, he agreed, that "As I advance, I see there must be a big brain, God." Is it not? Did he not say?
Devotees: Yes.
Prabhupada: There is knowledge. That is knowledge. Everything is being maintained so nicely and there is no brain, there is no manager? One who says, "God is dead, there is no God," he's a rascal number one. Nothing else. Immediately take him he's a rascal number one. That's all. However educated he may be. Because he does not know the psychology, how we accept the Supreme. Suppose a child has come to London. So he cannot see the Queen. Or even a child's father. So many people are coming to visit London. It is not that everyone is seeing the Queen. But if he says, "Oh, there is no Queen," or "Queen is dead," will it be accepted? Similarly, some rascals who do not know how this universe is being managed, he may say, "God is dead, there is no God," but that will not be accepted by a sane man. A sane man will say, "There must be somebody, the origin of everything."

[Srila Prabhupada from a Srimad-Bhagavatam Lecture, 1.1.2, London, August 17, 1971]

TeriB19 03-25-2004 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moti
I'm sorry if some of you found the post a little long. It had some solid points though don't you think?

Don't know, didn't really read it. Waaaaaaaaaay too long. By any chance are you a fan of Creed or are you just here to post your opinions on this subject?

aussiecreeder 03-26-2004 05:37 AM

"The frog in the well" logic illustrates that a frog residing in the atmosphere and boundary of a well cannot imagine the length and breadth of the gigantic ocean. Such a frog, when informed of the gigantic length and breadth of the ocean, first of all does not believe that there is such an ocean, and if someone assures him that factually there is such a thing, the frog then begins to measure it by imagination by means of pumping its belly as far as possible, with the result that the tiny abdomen of the frog bursts and the poor frog dies without any experience of the actual ocean. Similarly, the material scientists also want to challenge the inconceivable potency of the Lord by measuring Him with their froglike brains and their scientific achievements, but at the end they simply die unsuccessfully, like the frog.

this makes a very good point we try to fit God into our tiny little brains and conform him to our limited experience and understanding. Thanks heaps for that!

Moti 03-26-2004 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by handmedown
"The frog in the well" logic illustrates that a frog residing in the atmosphere and boundary of a well cannot imagine the length and breadth of the gigantic ocean. Such a frog, when informed of the gigantic length and breadth of the ocean, first of all does not believe that there is such an ocean, and if someone assures him that factually there is such a thing, the frog then begins to measure it by imagination by means of pumping its belly as far as possible, with the result that the tiny abdomen of the frog bursts and the poor frog dies without any experience of the actual ocean. Similarly, the material scientists also want to challenge the inconceivable potency of the Lord by measuring Him with their froglike brains and their scientific achievements, but at the end they simply die unsuccessfully, like the frog.

this makes a very good point we try to fit God into our tiny little brains and conform him to our limited experience and understanding. Thanks heaps for that!


Yes that's right. Her's another point:

One cannot challenge the authority of the Supreme and know Him also at the same time. He reserves the right of not being exposed to such a challenging spirit of an insignificant spark of the whole, a spark subjected to the control of illusory energy.

[Srila Prabhupada from Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.21]

So the first step to REAL KNOWLEDGE is HUMILITY. This is the atheistic scientists folly. They don't admit their actual postions. They are limited in so many ways yet they deny GOD. They are in illusion [think that they are their bodies not the soul or consciousness within] and yet they claim to be teachers and present books of so called knowledge, THIS IS CHEATING.

And the whole society blindly follows such cheaters.

Moti 03-26-2004 08:31 AM

Big bang means big brain or what?


Devotee: The scientists say that everything had its origin with a big bang. All of a sudden one day there was a big bang and everything came into being.
Prabhupada: What is that big bang. You do not know. It is your suggestion. Big bang means big brain or what? Big bang? What is that, a big bang?
Devotee: Noise.
Prabhupada: Hm? Noise? Big bang, what is that big bang?
Devotee: The scientists say that in the beginning the universe wasn't created, and then all of a sudden there was a big explosion and everything just kind of happened. Everything just came into being.
Prabhupada: But how all of a sudden there can be explosion? What is this nonsense proposition? As soon as there is question of explosion, before the explosion takes place, there must be some arrangement. The time bomb explosion. So the bomb is prepared by something, some bomb is kept by somebody, and after some time it explodes. So how all of a sudden? Where does he get this idea? Just like if there is bomb explosion here, a child may think, "All of a sudden there is a bomb explosion," but a sane man will not think that. There will be inquiry, "Who kept this bomb? Who brought this bomb?" That is sanity. "And all of a sudden explosion," this is all rascal proposal. Therefore the people have become so rascal, guided by these rascals, "All of a sudden, by chance," and they accept them as scientist... This is the drawback of the present civilization. Because they are sudras, like animals, they have got no brain to answer that "How all of a sudden there can be explosion." They have no brain even to ask. Rather, they are giving Nobel Prize. This rascal is speaking like a rascal, still, he should get Nobel Prize. That is the defect. The people at the present moment, they are all rascals. Just like animals. And yes, actually they are animals. Just like animals are eating, sleeping, mating, and eating meat. The other one animal is eating another animal. That's all. No discretion, nothing. This is a civilization of animals, polished animals. Their consciousness has become animalistic. Therefore this Krsna consciousness movement. Just like children. They are animals, just like animals. They have no fixed program. Whatever they like, they are doing. Whatever they like, they are speaking. Simply they are interested in eating. So at the present moment, because they have lost all their power of reasoning and understanding, they are all animals. "All of a sudden there is an explosion." How explosion can take place like that? Any sane human being will ask that "How is that?" Same example: If there is some explosion in the park, a rascal will say, "All of a sudden there is explosion." But the government, police department, immediately inquire, "How this bomb came? Wherefrom? Who placed it?" That is humanity. That is human reasoning. "And all of a sudden there is explosion," you have to accept that. You accept that?
Devotee: I don't accept it.
Prabhupada: Then? No sane man will accept. The so-called scientists, begin, all beginning is like that. "There were chemicals, these chemicals." Now wherefrom these chemicals came? Who placed these chemicals? They do not ask. Because they are fools, the other fools bluff them and they accept it. But we are not going to accept. We shall inquire. And that is human intelligence.
Giriraja: But they may say "Where did God come from?"
Prabhupada: No, no, God, not "come from." By experience you are speaking that things are... Just like the explosion. Explosion was there because God was there. Therefore God is there. The explosion cannot take place by chance, all of a sudden. There was somebody, some brain, and that brain is God. Because you say all of a sudden there was explosion, therefore that is the proof of existence of God. Is it clear or not?
Giriraja: Yes.
Devotee: Something can't come from nothing.
Prabhupada: No. We have no such experience. How we accept this nonsense statement? We have no such experience. I can accept something that is going on. Can you show me? So we show. You study with your experience. Where is your experience that something comes all of a sudden? There is no such thing. So how can I accept your statement? Because you say, "There was explosion," that means there is God. That means there is God. So what is your argument? You say that "Why you bring God?" I bring God because you say, "There was explosion."
Giriraja: No, you're saying that "Something cannot come from nothing."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Giriraja: So therefore this explosion came from God. But then where did God come from?
Prabhupada: That is God. God is always existing. Not "come from." That is God. Nityo nityanam. You are also existing. This knowledge, they are lacking. Just like I am, you are, we are eternal. We are eternal. We are changing body. Because they do not believe or do not try to understand that I am not this body, therefore the whole mistake is there.
Devotee: The scientists would use the same argument. The scientists would say, "Well, since I have not experienced that I am eternal, therefore how can I accept that I am eternal?"
Prabhupada: Yes, you are eternal. Because you were a child and now you are grown up, but you know that you were a child. Therefore you are eternal. You were a child, but you have no that child's body. Now you have got a different body. So although you have got different body, you know that you had a body like a child. Therefore body has changed. You have not changed. That is eternity.
Giriraja: And nobody wants to die.
Prabhupada: Nobody wants to die.
Giriraja: If the soul is not eternal, where has that desire...
Prabhupada: No. This is eternity. This is practical eternity. You have changed so many times your body, but you are the same person. Therefore you are eternal, in spite of changing body. This is simple argument.


* THE HARE KRISHNA SAINT TORTURED AND POISONED TO DEATH BY HIS JUDAS DISCIPLES

http://members.lycos.co.uk/prabhupad...p_poisoned.htm



* MATERIALISTIC SCIENTISTS EXPOSED BY THE HARE KRISHNA SAINT

http://members.lycos.co.uk/spexpose/



* WHAT IS KRISHNA CONCIOUSNESS?

http://members.lycos.co.uk/prabhupad...kc/what_kc.htm



* PRABHUPADA Your ever well wisher

http://members.lycos.co.uk/prabhupada1/

aussiecreeder 03-26-2004 09:27 AM

thanks for all of this stuff i am passing it on!

Sincirr 03-26-2004 11:12 AM

R U a Creed fan or not?


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