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-   -   What's wrong with you, people? (http://www.creedfeed.com/community/showthread.php?t=2827)

Lechium 04-25-2003 04:55 AM

What's wrong with you, people?
 
Many of you reacted to the lawsuit based on an impulse, rather than cold reason... here's what's really happened.

People pay $50+ to see band perform a show.

Lead singer appears drunk, or high on prescribed drugs, and fails to do a acceptable performance.

People did not get what they paid for, so right things to do would be
a) offer people a refund
B) schedule a show for some time later, and let peopel for ticket for teh faild show in. Yeah they get 2 shows, but one was a failure.


Say you call (and pre-pay) a plumber to fix your drain, and he shows up drunk, fixes your drain only partially (so it's still somewhat clogged) dances around your aprtment, and does other obnoxiosu stuff, and than leaves. What would you do? Let it be? Dont think so.

I dont agree with 2 mil part, but refund is a must. creed did not earn that money, and they should give it back. Simple as that.

Now flame away.

robaustin1701 04-25-2003 07:26 AM

Lechium,

They don't care here. It's too rational an explanation. All they care about is the delusion that the band is being persecuted. They are like most other enablers for people who drink to excess. They are in denial. They make excuses. Then they get angry, defensive and shut you out. Welcome to their world. They'll now tell you to go to hell and leave.

<sigh>

I never thought I'd meet MEAN Creed fans. But I did. They are here. In droves.

--*Rob

creedchick02 04-25-2003 09:06 AM

LEECH~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~SHUT~~~~UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:rolle yes: ;)

TeriB19 04-25-2003 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by robaustin1701

I never thought I'd meet MEAN Creed fans. &nbsp;But I did. &nbsp;They are here. &nbsp;In droves. &nbsp;

--*Rob

Ok, if we are so mean, go back to the Pit where they are nice over there!! We've heard what a freindly bunch they are.:rolleyes:


And Lech, I pay a plumber NOT to entertain me, but to do a service on my pipes. You are comparing apples to oranges. A plumber is in a business to provide a physical service to your house. An entertainer is there to entertain, not fix your roof or unclog your pipes. Big difference. Mark, Brett & Flip played the music and did some singing. No one is doubting that Scott did not live up to everyones expectations of him that night. But a lawsuit is assinine.

njcreedite 04-25-2003 11:00 AM

If you go to the SuperBowl and your team plays horrible....do you get your money back??? NO!!! If you spend a fortune to see your favorite star on Broadway....and you get there only to see the understudy...do you get your money back??? NO!!
Where on the ticket did it give a money back guarentee??
It doesn't. This is just the chance you take. Grow Up People.

The Lithium 04-25-2003 11:14 AM

Naah....I think you had wron njcreedite....I think the fans should heve there money back....I know that it's like you say about Broadway and everything, but it's not right....I think Creed should give the fans the money back....It's a way to show the fans how mush they appreciate there fans....Without us Creed shoulden't be nothing AT ALL....."We love you, like a pigg love korn" --Mark Tremonti to the fans....Come on Creed....Some one have to be the first one! Show the world that you're the most kind band in the whol world....I mean....Creed have A LOT of money....Ain't more than right....
Come on Creed....I know you can do it, come on!

robaustin1701 04-25-2003 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by njcreedite
If you go to the SuperBowl and your team plays horrible....do you get your money back??? &nbsp;NO!!! &nbsp;If you spend a fortune to see your favorite star on Broadway....and you get there only to see the understudy...do you get your money back??? NO!!
Where on the ticket did it give a money back guarentee??
It doesn't. &nbsp;This is just the chance you take. &nbsp;Grow Up People.



Uh - actually on broadway - if an understudy is present - you can get a refund or tickets to another peformance instead. That's why they put those notices up before you enter the theater AND in the Playbill if an understudy is being used. They will absolutely do that - because they understand the importance of giving people what they came to see - the star.

Also - I asked my friend who works for a broadway show promoter (who promotes all the broadway road shows) if what happened to Creed happened to a broadway show - where the lead perfomer was drunk and didn't sing and pulled what Scott did - she said they would absolutely refund the money of anyone who wanted the refund, because they realize the weight that the lead performer carries over the other members of the company.

The sports event analogy doesn't hold water. You WANT your team to win - but the enjoyment of the game isn't diminished if they lose.

However, in the case of a concert - if the lead singer - an integral part of the band and the glue that holds all the songs together - doesn't perform even close to what they do on each and every other show on the tour - then yes, I believe they deserve their money back.

<Bangs head against wall some more>

--*Rob

Bridge of Clay 04-25-2003 12:35 PM

yep, but if you bought a ticket to the concert for 50 bucks, you bought the whole package...

so, 2 bands opened the concert for Creed... 50/3= ~16, 67

so, if they didn´t like Creed, they should ask for ~16,67 dollars :P

tha was clever! :P lol!

Bridge of Clay 04-25-2003 12:37 PM

oh, wait... 16,67 / Flip+Mark+Brett+Scott (4) = ~ $ 4.17

that´s it! they should get back less than 5 dollars!!!

yeah, I rule at Math!!!!!! :jam: :D

robaustin1701 04-25-2003 12:49 PM

You tell me that the majority of the people were there to see all 3 bands? Come on. You KNOW they're there to see Creed, and no one else but Creed. Creed as the "main attraction" - playing for an hour and 40 minutes - versus each opening band playing for maybe 30 minutes?

Creed was the reason people were there.

--*Rob

Dogstar 04-25-2003 12:55 PM

Lechium, saying that people reacted to this lawsuit on impulse is ridiculous. Just because you don't agree does not mean their opinions are not valid. Rock stars appearing drunk, high or both has been going on since the music began. Fifteen or 20 years ago, this lawsuit would never even have been contemplated; we live in a far more litigious society now. And according to the complaint, the standard language of *other damages deemed appropriate by the court* also was included in the lawsuit. If these people were simply out to get just their refund, there would be no need for such language. They are out to see what else they can get besides a refund.

Also, drugs and alcohol have been a part of the rock music scene forever. Some fans are just upset because they thought perhaps that Creed were different in that respect. People too often put musicians on a pedestal where they simply don't belong. As Jen said, why hasn't Marilyn Manson or Nine Inch Nails or Aerosmith been sued for similar incidents, or Guns N Roses? Because people expect that of them, but they don't expect it from Creed because of the image the band has tried to maintain. It's almost impossible to be squeaky clean in the rock world. Just the way it is. Creed are being held to this higher standard and it's just not fair. It's unfortunate what happened. I make no excuses or *enable* him in the manner in which others sometimes do with alcoholics or drug abusers. I worship the music, not the musician.

And Rob, the people here are not mean, otherwise, I would never have stayed here. I detect frustration on their part more than anything. If it's so hostile here, then why do you keep coming back?

robaustin1701 04-25-2003 12:57 PM

I'm a masochist.

--*Rob

Dogstar 04-25-2003 12:58 PM

:lol: Rob :D.

creedlvr 04-25-2003 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by robaustin1701
Lechium,

They don't care here. &nbsp;It's too rational an explanation. &nbsp;All they care about is the delusion that the band is being persecuted. &nbsp;They are like most other enablers for people who drink to excess. &nbsp;They are in denial. They make excuses. &nbsp;Then they get angry, defensive and shut you out. &nbsp;Welcome to their world. &nbsp;They'll now tell you to go to hell and leave.

<sigh>

I never thought I'd meet MEAN Creed fans. &nbsp;But I did. &nbsp;They are here. &nbsp;In droves. &nbsp;

--*Rob



Ya know ... this just about does it for me!

How DARE YOU make this statement!? You say you want "rational" debates ... which I (as well as others) tried to give you in another thread ... but if you'll notice, I didn't even bother to respond to you again ... even though you made it your job to continue "quoting" me. I give up on even trying to respond ... because YOU, apparently, are the one who is close-minded. You can't even admit (or perhaps it's because you just don't understand logic beyond your own) that people here ALSO have good, valid points!

You think that just because we don't agree with you, that we are wearing blinders or are "delusional" ... how about just accepting that you are not the almighty God with all the right answers!

"They are like most other enablers for people who drink to excess." ....... What the F are you even babbling about!?!? You're not making any sense!

NO ONE is saying that there is nothing wrong with what happened ... but a lawsuit is STUPID!!!! It can potentially destroy Creed's reputation and it is uncalled for. You're not looking for a good debate ... you're just here to *try to* make everyone here believe your bull$hit! You try to pass yourself off as the only one here with a brain! Well guess what ... YOU'RE NOT! You are just stuck on your beliefs and have no interest in hearing what others have to say. Several people on this board (including myself) have said you've made some valid points ... we just don't agree with the actual lawsuit. But have you even ONCE returned to us with admitting WE'VE made some good points????? NO! Because you are too busy in your "closed mind" to give anyone that satisfaction. All you do is try to say that our points are NOT valid.

I have admitted that Creed ... and/or Scott ... should have made good for what happened ... or better yet ... not let it have happened at all. But it did! It's over! These people with this lawsuit are taking it WAY too far! You can <sigh, sigh, sigh> all you want ... but the fact remains that you're incapable of allowing yourself to give a little and see that WE TOO have valid points!

Do you get it??? Or is this "too rational an explanation" for you?

And Lechium ...
I actually have not had time to post on here a lot lately ... but what happened??? Last I knew, you were kicked off somewhere back at "666" number of posts (what a shock!!).

I am through "debating" with people who have no room in their little minds to see another side! :madder:

Bridge of Clay 04-25-2003 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by robaustin1701
<b>You tell me that the majority of the people were there to see all 3 bands? &nbsp;Come on. You KNOW they're there to see Creed, and no one else but Creed. &nbsp;Creed as the "main attraction" - playing for an hour and 40 minutes - versus each opening band playing for maybe 30 minutes?

Creed was the reason people were there.

--*Rob </b>



yep, they were there to see Creed buy they bought a 3-concerts package. And they saw Creed: Mark was there, Flip was there and Stapp was almost the whole time there...

Now, if they went to the concert to see only stapp, maybe then they are right :rolleyes:

hehehehe

You claim yourself to be so smart and can´t notice when someone is just kidding...

Dogstar 04-25-2003 01:28 PM

Well said, creedlvr! :clap: :clap: :clap:

robaustin1701 04-25-2003 01:37 PM

I'm not trying to demonize all of you, there have been a select few who have debated quite well.

And - I'll freely admit - filing of a lawsuit is the last straw.

But frankly, if it came to the "last straw" for these fans - then Creed need to address it - swiftly. I'm not hearing anything from their camp at all. That's unfortunate, because that means their management is wasting valuable time.

You say that the lawsuit could destroy Creed's reputation. Ok - yes I agree it can. And that's just the reason they need to take action. Maybe it wouldn't be fair to the band. But it's not fair to the fans of the show to not get their money back either. Let them show the fans and the world that they are honorable, and have integrity in the face of adversity.

As for mean - for me that's obnoxious name calling - I've been called (for example):

"bunghole"
"buttface"

I've been MOONED (by Marcos)

And I've faced unbridled sarcasm (for example):
"I eat my toe nails!!!
--*Rob "
"You've voiced. Bu-bye then. "

It hasn't been everyone - but there has been quite a bit of it.

Sarcasm, name calling, being dismissive, stonewalling, cold shouldering are all defense mechanisms - defense mechanisms are used to get out of engaging in real rational mature conversation. Which some folks here obviously don't want to have.

I've attempted nothing more then to engage in meaningful debate.

--*Rob

Bridge of Clay 04-25-2003 01:52 PM

Yeah, I did it!!! twice and quoted you as well!

so what?

you came here for debate, knowing that people here would stand for creed. what´s the point? we´re not going to convince you, nor you´ll convince us...

robaustin1701 04-25-2003 02:00 PM

Now Marcos is attempting to bully me like a little kid on the playground:

"Yeah, I did it!!! twice and quoted you as well!

so what? "

Which is the equivalent of:

"Yeah! I made fun of you! What you gonna do about? Nyah!"

Real mature guys....keep the immaturity coming....your true colors just keep coming through...

And -

if you think I'm so wrong, why do you keep coming back and answering me? Obviously, I keep the debate open, because I feel the need to keep the other side heard. But if you're all so tired of me? Why answer me at all? That puzzles me. Why not ignore me entirely?

--*Rob

creedlvr 04-25-2003 02:04 PM

Thanks Dogstar! :)

Rob --
I'm glad to see that you are actually acknowledging that a lawsuit is a bit extreme and that people here have had sensible things to say.

I am not condoning the name calling ... but it does get quite frustrating when you try to make a rational point and it is just disregarded. It leaves you feeling as though you have to resort to more "impulsive" measures.

Thanks for the recap of your ridicule ...
I was pretty angry when I wrote my last post ... your response actually made me laugh.

Lechium 04-25-2003 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by creedlvr
... but a lawsuit is STUPID!!!! It can potentially destroy Creed's reputation...



Dude it's not the lawsuit that destroys their reputation. It's Stapps behaviour, and than lame statement from PF that followed.

Also about rockstars and that it's ok for tehm to be drunk and high. Depends. Creed has Flanders-like reputation -- they're all good and rghtcheous. People who go to see them expect them to be sober and performing.

Example: say I go to see Dwarves concert. Dwarves are a crazy punk band known for super obnoxious shows, for pulling girls form the audience and having sex with them on stage, and for stuff like that. If lead singers shows up drunk, I think that's alright, cuz I paid my money to see somethign obnoxious.
Hoever if I go to see Radiohead and Thom Yorke is drunk, and is doing stupid shit on stage I'd be pissed, cuz I came to see band perform music not craziness.

Why is it so hard for you guys to admit that band DID do a bad job onstage, and thus people who were not satified with the show should be able to get their money back?

JulieCitySlicker 04-25-2003 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by robaustin1701
<b>I'm not trying to demonize all of you, there have been a select few who have debated quite well.

And - I'll freely admit - filing of a lawsuit is the last straw.

But frankly, if it came to the "last straw" for these fans - then Creed need to address it - swiftly. &nbsp;I'm not hearing anything from their camp at all. &nbsp;That's unfortunate, because that means their management is wasting valuable time.

You say that the lawsuit could destroy Creed's reputation. &nbsp;Ok - yes I agree it can. &nbsp;And that's just the reason they need to take action. &nbsp;Maybe it wouldn't be fair to the band. &nbsp;But it's not fair to the fans of the show to not get their money back either. &nbsp;Let them show the fans and the world that they are honorable, and have integrity in the face of adversity.

As for mean - for me that's obnoxious name calling - I've been called (for example):

"bunghole"
"buttface"

I've been MOONED (by Marcos)

And I've faced unbridled sarcasm (for example):
"I eat my toe nails!!!
--*Rob "
"You've voiced. Bu-bye then. "

It hasn't been everyone - but there has been quite a bit of it.

Sarcasm, name calling, being dismissive, stonewalling, cold shouldering are all defense mechanisms - defense mechanisms are used to get out of engaging in real rational mature conversation. &nbsp; Which some folks here obviously don't want to have.

I've attempted nothing more then to engage in meaningful debate.

--*Rob </b>

Hey, I was just playing with the bunghole thing ok;) I didn't mean any harm:P

robaustin1701 04-25-2003 02:25 PM

Oh absolutely you folks have legitimate points. IT's sad when it comes to a lawsuit. But sometimes, someone feels to get the attention they think they need to an issue - the only way they find to do that is to file a lawsuit - to take it to the legal system. It is sad when that happens.

Have you ever watched Judge Judy or one of those other courtroom shows? If you do you'll see some pretty dumb people. I sit there and think "Man, what did it take that these people could not work out their differences between themselves, and they have to air them in public, and on TV no less." But sometimes, it just comes to that. It's extreme that someone filed a lawsuit just to get their $250 for a plane ticket back, or for a bicycle, or whatever it is. But sometimes it's about more than just that $250. Sometimes it's about holding the other person accountable for their actions. It's about the principle of the thing.

I can't speak for those people - I don't know their reasons for filing the lawsuit, but if they love Creed as much as so many other people do - I have a feeling - it's because they felt that Scott betrayed them. He betrayed them by not staying sober and giving them the best performance he could. He betrayed their confidence that when they went to a Creed show - like so many other people have in the past - that they would get the coolest and most awesome rock show experience they've ever seen. And they need him to know that. And they need to see that he - and anyone who would let him go onstage and betray each and every fan in that way - are held accountable.

Yeah - some of those people on Judge Judy could have just as easily said "F it, I'll suck it up, and get over it, and take the loss." But some of those people had a bigger issue in mind. They wanted to make sure not just that they got their money, but also that someone (the judge) validated their point, and made the other person see that what they did was wrong. It's an idealistic notion. We do not live in an ideal world. We do not strive for perfection. But we in this country do strive for excellence. And when something is so far from excellence that we feel gypped, we have recourse.

Yes, this threatens the band - in so many ways and on so many levels. This is why I call for them to respond quickly and decisively. The longer this lingers, the more the media juggernaut hangs on to it, and makes it bigger then the life of the band. It attaches a stigma to the band, that they will likely deal with for years to come.

But - they can do something about it. Since it's about the principle of the thing, and since the members of Creed ARE principled human beings, I hope they will embrace this as a way to show off their strong moral character, and not let their wimpy management types let this linger.

--*Rob

JulieCitySlicker 04-25-2003 02:28 PM

Judge Judy rocks:jam: She's a cool bioch:dancing: :dancing:

marlsy 04-25-2003 02:28 PM

He did mess up, I can admit that, but to sue?? I went to see Van Halen when I was 17 and I loveeee Van Halen, they were alllllllllllllllllllllll wasted!! I mean all of them, David couldn't remember songs, telling guys off in the audiance, Eddie could barely play, yeah I was majorly dissapointed and even a bit pissed right after, but to sue????? No way, and I still loved them and always will. Rock n Roll is known for sex drugs and rock n roll, Creed has been labled as a Christian band even though they have said over and over, they are NOT a christian band, you can't expect them to be saints and then NOT expect other rock bands to be also. There should be numerous suits against a lot rock bands then, not just Creed. America is just to fricken sue happy, makes me sick.

JulieCitySlicker 04-25-2003 02:39 PM

I think that if Creed get sued for this kinda stuff then other bands that do it should to:mad:

robaustin1701 04-25-2003 02:39 PM

Ok Julie if Judge Judy rocks - and you agree with the way she does busines:

So picture Scott Stapp standing in front of Judge Judy, as a defendant, and picture an upset fan standing there as a plaintiff.

What would Judge Judy say to Scott?

Be honest now!

--*Rob

JulieCitySlicker 04-25-2003 02:53 PM

I am not saying that there was nothing wrong done. Scott messed up I am not denying that one bit ok! But I think they only reason that those people are sueing is because they want to make a spectacle out of the whole situation. Sueing them should not have been done!:mad:

creedlvr 04-25-2003 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lechium
Dude it's not the lawsuit that destroys their reputation. It's Stapps behaviour, and than lame statement from PF that followed.



Dude ... I'm not a dude!

Lechium 04-25-2003 02:58 PM

Band with rebelious/crazy image can do thinkgs like creed did. Cuz that's part of their image, people can expect that, as they do such things shwo after show.

Band that is vieweed as Christstian band, and has goody-good image will be sued in such a case, cuz people did not expect such behaviour from them.

So 2Julie: some bands can be sued in such a case. Some bands cannot.

JulieCitySlicker 04-25-2003 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lechium
Band with rebelious/crazy image can do thinkgs like creed did. Cuz that's part of their image, people can expect that, as they do such things shwo after show.

Band that is vieweed as Christstian band, and has goody-good image will be sued in such a case, cuz people did not expect such behaviour from them.

So 2Julie: some bands can be sued in such a case. Some bands cannot.

EVERY BAND SHOULD THEN!

Lechium 04-25-2003 03:04 PM

No. You're missing the point...

Actually... ok -- every band who's fans cannot handle such behaviour.

robaustin1701 04-25-2003 03:23 PM

Rob puts on his Judge Judy voice (New York accent and all):

"Don't avoid the question Madam! What would I say - to Scott Stapp?"

And this is what I think Judge Judy - who you said rocks - would say to Scott:

Judge Judy: "Sir - you were drunk! You were supposed to perform a show, and you were so intoxicated, that you could not perform!"

Stapp: "Ma'am...I had been drinking because I was having a very rough time..."

Judge Judy: "Stop! I don't want to hear about how much pain you were in. How much you were suffering... You sir had a job that night to sing for 15,000 of your loving fans! You were too drunk to do so..."

Stapp: "But...ma'am - the other members of the band played the show through....the audience got to see Creed..."

Judge Judy: "Mr. Stapp, how stupid do you think I am? You are part of a musical group. You are the lead singer! As part of that musical group - you are obligated to sing with them. On that night you did not sing. You threw a microphone....you took off your shoes....you laid down on the stage and showed the audience your feet....you even left the stage for minutes at a time... Mr. Stapp, you did not perform to the level at which you usually do!"

Stapp: "Ma'am - the fans would understand...they got a unique show."

Judge Judy: "That's your defense? That they got a unique performance? That is not a defense, Mr. Stapp! You did not perform to the standards to which you had on each and every other night of the tour. You were drunk Mr. Stapp, severely intoxicated...."

Stapp: "But..."

Judge Judy: "Judgement for the plantiff in the mount of $227....that's all...."

And that's exactly what is going to happen if this goes to trial....

--*Rob

Lechium 04-25-2003 03:28 PM

I think they'll settle it off court thou.

robaustin1701 04-25-2003 03:30 PM

Better for the band if they come out right now and apologize and refund the money of their own volition or schedule a make up show. They could get the lawsuit dropped before this gets bigger then it already is.

--*Rob

Dogstar 04-25-2003 03:33 PM

I hope it gets thrown out, but if it doesn't, I agree they will settle first. I really don't think they would want to go to court with it. In any event, it's bad news for venues and entertainers.

JenRN 04-25-2003 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by robaustin1701
Lechium,

They don't care here. &nbsp;It's too rational an explanation. &nbsp;All they care about is the delusion that the band is being persecuted. &nbsp;They are like most other enablers for people who drink to excess. &nbsp;They are in denial. They make excuses. &nbsp;Then they get angry, defensive and shut you out. &nbsp;Welcome to their world. &nbsp;They'll now tell you to go to hell and leave.

<sigh>

I never thought I'd meet MEAN Creed fans. &nbsp;But I did. &nbsp;They are here. &nbsp;In droves. &nbsp;

--*Rob


Your arrogance sickens me:rolleyes: Who the hell do you think you are anyways? You have posted 44 times so far on nothing but running your damn mouth, can't you take a hint? We DON"T agree with you:rolleyes: So because we don't agree with you the "superior one" it makes us idiots? Man you have a lot of growing up to do!

hotforscott 04-25-2003 06:02 PM

I second what Jen said, you have a TON of growing up to do.

robaustin1701 04-25-2003 06:27 PM

Actually,

You're the one who has a lot of growing up to do. Because you can't separate your emotions from the rational situation. Maybe you don't want to, and that's fine, but it won't make the situation any better for the band. I've at least offered rational solutions for the band to solving the problem of the lawsuit. They need solutions now, not people saying "We love you man."

Let me put it this way:

If your friend murders someone - really and truly commits an awful heinous crime - for whatever reason - they commit it. They have to answer to the law for that crime. They will have to go to trial, and ultimately, be held accountable for their actions.

Now - they are a close friend. Does that make them any less your friend? No. Does it make what they did right? Absolutely not. Do they still have to answer to the law in a trial in a court of law? Yes. Can you support them? Sure, you can offer them words of encouragement, but that will only get them so far. You can sit there and let your emotions rule your head and be in denial - "Oh so what they killed someone, so what get over it." Or you can sit there and let your emotions rule your head and make excuses -"Oh they were in pain that night." But the rational, logical thing is - they still did what they did, and have to be held accountable for it.

Now - before you jump all over me about CRIME - I know Scott did not commit a crime. But he did something which ultimately, because of a lawsuit, needs to be held accountable for. Whether ot not the lawsuit is right or wrong is irrelevant. The lawsuit exists, whether you like it or not. So you can sit here and let your emotions rule your head and be in denial "Oh so what Scott drank and gave a lousy show, get over it" - or you can sit here and let your emotions rule your head and make excuses - "Oh he was in pain that night". But the rational, logical thing is - he still did what he did, and still has to be held accountable for it, because of the lawsuit.

--*Rob

JulieCitySlicker 04-25-2003 06:32 PM

Um...ok! Creed didn't kill anyone though so bad stradgety:rolleyes:


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