Italian judge demands proof of Jesus' existence
 

An Italian judge has ordered a priest to appear in court this month to prove that Jesus Christ existed.

The case against Father Enrico Righi has been brought in the town of Viterbo, north of Rome, by Luigi Cascioli, a retired agronomist who once studied for the priesthood but later became a militant atheist.

Signor Cascioli, author of a book called The Fable of Christ, began legal proceedings against Father Righi three years ago after the priest denounced Signor Cascioli in the parish newsletter for questioning Christ’s historical existence...

The website of Luigi Cascioli on his book The Fable of Christ
www.luigicascioli.it
I dare every 'true' Christian to read this website dealing with the myth of Christ.

Article on timesonline:
Prove Christ exists, judge orders priest

The date and time of January 27th 2006 at 9 am have been confirmed at the Court of Justic in Viterbo for the lawsuit of Luigi Cascioli against don Enrico Righi, parish priest in Bagnoregio, as representative of ministers of religion, for abuse of popular credulity (Art. 661 CP.)and impersonation (Art. 494 CP.).

Re: Italian judge demands proof of Jesus' existence
 

Yes, as I recall, Father Enrico Righi succeeded- the judge was convinced, and it was said that Luigi Cascioli should have slander charges filed against him ...

Re: Italian judge demands proof of Jesus' existence
 

please do provide a reference rathater than speculate

Re: Italian judge demands proof of Jesus' existence
 

Cascioli, author of a book called "The Fable of Christ," said he was not surprised, and said he would appeal to Italy's highest court, and then to The Hague.

Asked about the possibility he would be tried for slander, Cascioli chuckled, saying that to prove he lied, prosecutors would have to prove that Jesus existed.

"They don't have any proof," he said.

According to Reuters.

Re: Italian judge demands proof of Jesus' existence
 

thanx ralphy


It’s a shame that anecdotal evidence is acceptable in a court of law because that won't cut it when using reason

Re: Italian judge demands proof of Jesus' existence
 

^^^You just can't stay away,can you?

Re: Italian judge demands proof of Jesus' existence
 

Italian Judge !!! every Mutha wants dat proof WHAT MAKES HIM SO DAMN SPECIALE!!! Julie I dont have a probleam with a Boy i bet he believes he just likes to piss everybody off

Re: Italian judge demands proof of Jesus' existence
 

first of all I am not a boy I am a man, 2nd of all there is no evidence that warrents belief so you are misteaking on both counts there.

Re: Italian judge demands proof of Jesus' existence
 

It's amazing how you guys will go on and on and on like
"please show proof, I can't even believe that humans breath
with their lungs until you prove it to me" and "even gravity is still
a theory" ...

and then you turn around and keep saying "we have no proof, there
is no proof"

Well, I've read that there is proof ,outside of the Bible of Jesus'
exsistanceand also his resurrection. Unfortunaltey, those were
anecdotes, and I can't back them up. However, I do know that
Christians are commanded not to lie, whereas atheists should have
no problem lying. There is no God- there are no rules, there are
no morals, there is no right. I have known evolutionists to
stalk creationist scientists who claim to have proof against
present theories, and to destroy what would seem to be evidence
against them. While is it intirely possible that christians would lie,
and probably do at times, it's logical to say that since christians
at least feel obliged to be truthful, whereas there's not alot
stopping an athiest from telling a fiblet, or giving out a piece of misinformation.This logic would seem to suggest that there
might be more of a chance of truth in a Christian's results than in
an Atheist's, especially a militant atheist's.

Also, instead of insisting that there is no proof, why don't you
show us the lack of proof, denouncing the proof that is false,
or shedding light in the misunderstandings in science/history, instead
of telling us that we are wrong, demanding proof for EVERYTHING,
while you yourselves give no evidence of your own.

Continuing this arguement the way you are, who would believe
you?Would you believe the things you're saying if no proof, or
lack thereof, was shown?

Saying "show proof, show proof" but then you show none,
where is your side of the argument? You're fighting "swords"
with "imaginary swords" , asking for more than just an anecdote
for every little thing, and yet giving no more than just "there's no proof".


I find it very difficult to carry on an open debate when I'm accused
of being a liar every time I open my mouth.

With earnest
Ryan

Re: Italian judge demands proof of Jesus' existence
 

Oh no Ralphy he figured us out...He has discovered the Evil Atheist Conspiracy we must do away with him before he can tell anyone

[/sarcasam]

honestly here ryan there is plenty reason for me not to lie you wanna know why because if I am not truthful how can I expect people to believe me and if I lie how can I expect anyone to do anything different? Yes I am an Atheist but I have morals and honor and integrity these things are not exclusive to religion they existed before and they will exist after.... try reading Richard Carrier's "Sense and goodness with out god" it shows how there are morals with out religion.

you should try not to spout off about things you obviously know nothing of


and I thin its great that you think that evolutionists will distroy any evidence (with as weak as it is) that the oxymoron or "creation science" comes up with you make a positive assurtion that evolutionists destroy that so-called evidence that means the burden of proof is on you


now if you are refering to the "proof of jesus out side he bible" bein the writings of Josephus then you are gravely mistaking because thoes have been shown to be frauds made by Eucibius.

Re: Italian judge demands proof of Jesus' existence
 

thats the thing ryan.....


if you are making a positive claim the burden is on you to prove your assurtion now once you actually offer that I would be glad to debunk it with other proofs and it goes back and forth like that.... that is how true debate works but if you do not wish to then don't just drop it and walk away.

Re: Italian judge demands proof of Jesus' existence
 

Just out of curiousity, what are your thoughts on this?

Jewish Talmud confirms an early Gospel of Matthew
By Neil Altman and David Crowder

An ancient Jewish parody that quotes the New Testament's Gospel of Matthew may refute a major argument by biblical scholars who challenge the credibility of the Bible.
For more than a century, liberal scholars have contended that the Christian gospels are unreliable, secondhand accounts of Jesus' ministry that weren't put on paper until 70 to 135 AD or later -- generations after those who witnessed the events of Jesus' ministry were dead.
Today's more liberal scholars say the Gospel of Matthew may have been aimed at Jews, but it was written in Greek, not Hebrew. They also believe that the Book of Mark, written in Greek, was the original gospel, despite the traditional order of the gospels in the Bible, putting Matthew first.
But a literary tale dated by some scholars at 72 AD or earlier, which comes from an ancient collection of Jewish writings known as the Talmud, quotes brief passages that appear only in the Gospel of Matthew.
In his 1999 book, "Passover and Easter: Origin and History to Modern Times," Israel J. Yuval of Jerusalem's Hebrew University states that Rabban Gamaliel, a leader of rabbinical scholars in about 70 AD, is "considered to have authored a sophisticated parody of the Gospel according to Matthew."
The Talmud, a text not often touched by New Testament scholars, also contains a number of obvious references to Jesus and his family.
Jesus is called a Nazarene as one of the names given him. Another dubs him Yeshua Ben Pandira, which means Jesus born-of-a-virgin in a combination of Hebrew and Greek. His father was a carpenter, his mother was a hairdresser and Jesus, the Talmud says, was a magician who "led astray Israel."
And, it says, he was "hung" on the eve of Passover.
Gamaliel's tale, which happens to portray a Christian judge as corrupt, may be less valuable for its instruction than for casting doubt on the long-held theory that Matthew's gospel, though longer than Mark's, was written years later by someone after the apostle Matthew had died.
When Matthew's gospel to the Hebrews was written is important to biblical conservatives because an early Matthew would strengthen its credibility by making it possible, if not probable, that the tax collector whom Jesus recruited was the first to write and distribute his account of Jesus' birth, ministry and death.
Most liberal scholars would say Matthew's gospel didn't come along until 90 AD or later and was in Greek, separating the apostle from the Jews as well as book that bears his name.
But if Gamaliel quoted the Gospel of Matthew, then Matthew "had to be before 70 AD," said Craig Blomberg, distinguished professor of New Testament at Denver Theological Seminary.
In Rabbi Gamaliel's story, a daughter whose father had died offers a golden lamp as a bribe to a Christian judge known for his honesty, seeking a decision that would allow her to share her father's estate with her brother.
When the judge suggests that dividing the estate would be proper on the basis of a new law that had superseded the ancient Law of Moses, Gamaliel argues that the judge is wrong and loosely quotes a statement attributed to Jesus' Sermon on the Mount in the Gospel of Matthew.
"Look further in the book, and it is written in it, 'I have not come to take away from the Law of Moses nor add to the Law of Moses ... .' " Gamaliel replies, and wins the case on the basis of that argument or the bribe he gave the judge -- a "Libyan ass."
The Libyan ass itself is a reference to Jesus and the mount he rode into Jerusalem.
The late English scholar, R. Travers Herford, called Gamaliel's story a "brutal parody of Christian belief." In his book, "Christianity in Talmud and Midrash," he points to a second reference to Matthew, in the reaction of the woman who lost the case, despite the golden lamp she gave as a bribe.
"Let your light shine as a lamp!" she says, throwing a sarcastic barb at the judge.
At Matthew 5:16, just before Jesus said he came to fulfill the law, he tells his followers that the lamp of their belief should not be hidden but "let your light shine before men."
Neil Altman is a Philadelphia-based writer who specializes in the Dead Sea Scrolls and religion. He has done graduate work at Dropsie College for Hebrew and Cognate Learning, Conwell School of Theology, and Temple University. He has a master's degree in Old Testament from Wheaton Graduate School in Wheaton, Ill., and was an American Studies Fellow at Eastern College. David Crowder is an investigative reporter for the El Paso Times in Texas.


This story appeared on Page A6 of The Standard-Times on April 19, 2003.

Re: Italian judge demands proof of Jesus' existence
 

Most scholars do believe now that both Matthew and Luke were based upon Mark and a later lost gospel named Q (short for the German word Quelle, which means source), so it could be that Gamaliel is based upon Q.

Btw the names of the writers of the gospels have been added so much later, that noone really still believes that the actual apostel Matthew was the writer of Matthew, just as it is very doubtful that any of the others gospels were written by the names that are now synonymous for these gospels.

Re: Italian judge demands proof of Jesus' existence
 

Ok. That's nice, but doesn't disprove that Jesus existed.
I'm no scholar, but all the "there's no proof" lines you guys are so fond of
seem to not make much sense. In my logic, if I wanted to, say, set out to disprove the idea that Aristotle ever existed, I would need to first form a conspiracy theory, and then debunk refrences to Aristotle and his teachings.
But just saying "Aristotle never lived" without presenting a case (other than "lack of subjective evidence") would be foolhardy. I, personaly have seen no such convincing case against Jesus' existance, but then, I've never looked very hard. I've just sat here and put up with "there's no proof. there's no proof"

Re: Italian judge demands proof of Jesus' existence
 

Ahh but if you wanna play thoes types of games we can say that you haven't proved jesus existed and you can say that we haven't disproved his existance and we get no where... you see we both have to start at some presupposition.