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HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA Well The Time Frame lets just say it was like a long time ago :) i tell ya what i think about sometimes They Say The Death Of Christ Was Like 2000 Years Ago ..and as the years pass :wtf: its still refered to 2000 years ago

your convertation points never cease to confuse me Creedsister :confused:

I have to agree with you there, but just because it SEEMS to you like Luke is saying He ascended one day afetrward, He is not. There is no contradiction in anything YOU jsut stated really, and you didn't even state any Bible verses.

Why do you WANT Christianity to be so wrong?

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I do not need to reply to your attack on Jesus' birth because there WAS no attack. You NEVER furnished a passage in the Gospels where it EVER states what year Jesus was born in, much less two DIFFERING Gospels. Once you start bringing forth evidence, THEN maybe I will reply.

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These couple of arguments I have read are just purile Jester. Youre looking for reasons to hate Christians more so I shouldnt have said that, but these arguments are just silly!

I dont mean to be frank, but please give me something decent to research, cos this crap about how long before the ascention is worthless!

And their presentation of Him at the Temple? I dont understand why it isnt accepted here that they fled after His dedication. What bit of accurate information am I missing out on here that would make that idea unacceptable?

Unfortunately, proving points will not work with U cos U dont really want it to, cos as I said, this is not a theology / historical issue, it is a personal issue with Jesus that U R grappling with. But do go on...

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No, the world was not created in seven days and the Earth is not 40,000 years old, although I have heard some protestants claim the world is only 10,000 years old...

Anyway, the Census is when they went to Bethlehem, but you are forgetting something; first, the dates are not necessarily reliable that you put forward, and second, Herod's successor was another Herod! So there is no discrepancy there. By the way, most historians tend to believe that Jesus was born around 4 B.C., although I don't think there has been any proof one way or the other.

And you say you have looked OUTSIDE of the box on this subject? Have you looked around, near, or INSIDE the box? At ALL? Because if not, you are guilty of the opposite crime you claim we have made. I encourage you to read Founding of Christendom by Warren Carrol, as I have said before. He is an incredibly unique historian and he knows what he is talking about. At least read the chapters (in volume 1) pertaining to the validity of the Gospels.

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Actually, Matthew never specifies which Herod it is. Your jumping to conclusions and broad generalizations just continue to prove how much you want to prove Christianity wrong. In reality, you have no proof. Your "research" has not held up at all, your Biblical knowledge is clearly lacking--the only thing you have is a prfound and misplaced emnity for Christianty, so much so that you started a pointless thread jsut to attack it.

My prayers go out to you; not necessarily that you will become a Christian, but just that your mind will be opened and you will actually consider facts instead of faulty, secular, prejudiced, atheistic "history" which is no more true than the Da Vinci Code.

Cheers, I hope you find whatever it is you are looking for.

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Hey Jester, I must say you have some very strong arguements against Christianity, or at least the basis of it. You seem to have a lot of resources at your disposal and so it would be very hard to debate with you because I don't have those resources. I am actually in the process of moving, but reading your statements, I've decided to wait on packing the computer. I would love to start talking with you about this subject, but I am leaving to Cleveland for the weekend. So hopefully the discussion will still be going on by the time I get back. By the way, from reading your statements I don't believe you are out to prove everyone wrong. I understand where you are coming from and I believe everyone should step outside of the box. But I believe that when seeking the truth, it should be an honest search, not an attempt at disproving something. If you go into the search completely honest with your intentions then you will find what you were looking for. Even the Bible says this. Seek and you shall find.
Anyway, just to let you know, I've been a Christian for 11 years and not once, waivered in my belief. This is not an attempt at saying, "Ha, I'm so holy," but rather just giving you a basis of where I am at. I have thought a lot about what I believe in and why I believe it. I've never went off and studied the Koran or other religious books, just because I didn't need to. I have a strong foundation in God, and it's not the bible. It's my faith. God has worked wonders in my life both good and bad. I wouldn't know how to begin debating with you, just because I don't have as many resources as you. I have the Bible, which is all I need. I do have other books written by Christian authors, such as "The Case For Faith" and "More than a Carpenter." You might say that these authors are biased because they are Christians, but these authors are people who, once, were atheists and then, through their studies, realized the truth and became Christ followers.
I don't want to be here to try to re-convert you back or to prove to you that Christianity is the right way. I want to encourage you to seek the truth with honesty. I follow Christ and believe that He is the Way, not because of what the Bible says, but because of what He has done in my life. Faith is being sure of what you hope for and certain of what you do not see. To me Christ is love and hope. Why wouldn't I want to follow that? Ok, with that said I'm out, but I promise I will be back.

-Dario-

"What we do in life, echos in eternity."

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Man that was out to figure out bro My Reply Would Be its not meant to know all of these things but one scripture could help you start JESUS said i,am the truth the way in the light and also i have placed before ya and open door knock and shall it be open also I,AM THE GOD WHO SEARCHS AND KNOWETH ALL THINGS FOR HE IS NOT A STRANGE. but therefore is the ruin of all man And Created Man Liken To His Own image Dude My Question Is Or Is Not MAN MADE UP OF ALL THINGS YOU LISTED ABOVE :) THEREFORE HE IS THE GOD HIGHER THAN ALL OF THESE THINGS By Death Did He Overcome The World...With Of Course Bringing All Should Ever Know In To The Light Forgive theme for they know what they do which should have been made easy for all christians to to see and follow >>St.Luke 27.37. BUT I SAY UNTO YOU WHICH HEAR LOVE YOUR ENEMIES DO GOOD TO THEME WHICH HATE YOU Bless Theme Which Cures You And Pray For Those Who hate You And Use You And Take Advantage And Unto Him That Smiteth You On One Check ofer also the other and him that taketh away a cloak forbid not to take thy coat also give to every man that asketh of thee and him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again do unto others as you would have theme unto you for if ye love only theme which love you what thank have ye for sinners know how to love each other and if ye do good theme which only do good to you what thank we have for sinners do the same ...And So Forth LOVE ONE ANOTHER THE WAY I HAVE LOVED YOU

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See this is what leads me to believe you jsut have a chip on your shoulder. Anyone can clearly see through the difficulties you are having.

Jealousy is a sin. The writers of the Old Testament knew that, and are clearly not meaning to say "God is a terrible sinner, only love HIM", they are showing how God is the ONLY God, and as such DESERVES that love and He ALONE deserves it.

In regards to your attempts at using dates to "disprove" the Gospels:

We do not have complete records from the period in question and there were several different callendars in use at the time all of which used "fudge factors" making precise dating almost impossible.

There were censuses taken by Roman officials every 8 years or so. Sometimes the censuses themsleves took several years to complete. We have reasonably established a census MAY have occurred ~6 AD. The previous one would have been ~3BC (there was no year 0). New evidence seems to indicate that Herod the Great may have died in 1 BC instead of 4 BC as most scholars had previously thought. So all of the dates do seem to add up.

Granted ,this isn't PROOF of anything, but you definitely cannot DISPROVE it either.

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I would have to agree with that thought JESTER

I completely agree with that. Look, I'm Catholic, and constantly debate, argue with, and discuss with Protestants, and I almost always win the arguments. Several times they even ADMIT I won the arguments and still go one beliving whatever it is they believe.

I certainly don't blindly take for granted the Bible. I have done research and it is satisfactory enough for me to believe that the Gospels are valid historically. From there, I arrive at the Catholic Church.

I would ask though: Just suppose you ever DID think begin to think the Gospels were historically valid. Would you then believe in Christianity? Or would you not even if someone adequately proved their validity?

I am just curious about that. I don't want to get into an argument about it.

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Well, there is no question that a LOT of churches are hypocritical and a LOT of members of churches (even the good ones!) are highly hypocritical.

I would definitely hope you don't let hypocritical people keep you from believing in Christ though. That would be a shame.

Let me ask you a question: Do you believe in God?

Yes Uncertain Both Jester and I believe there is a God

Thanks for your patience in replying.

You are very tactful but I feel sorry for your Christian friends cos I feel that U think deep down that they are a joke and what they hold dear is a joke. I find that sad. Also downgrading. I wonder how they feel.

I will say though, that you might not believe me at all, but I was not born in a Christian family like yourself, in fact I hated it and anything to do with God or the bible. I truly believed that Jesus was definitely not anythihg but a man with decent integrity of sorts. Now U would think that I felt like a fool for Choosing Christ but I didnt have time for that cos I was overwhealmed by His reality.

You never got the chance to choose when U were growing up. Of course U have to go through these things yourself but even the opinion of Herod is based on your opinion of the timeline of events. Your opinion of the info U have gathered.

There must be enough arguments to keep the bible credible or it would have been aboilished centuries ago! I mean, U R not the first one that has come along and researched stuff about it.

I encourage you to keep your mind unboxed and your heart pure when researching.

:) you naughty lit smurf you get some cloths on

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I'm soory unlike some people (especially christians) I am not ashamed of my Body and do tell me where is it written that being naked is a sin?? :flasher:

Seems U R implying that it doesnt matter what is proven, people are still stupid enough to follow bullshit? Its quite insulting.

Also, nothing U have put forward has convinced me yet. Though I am interested in this idea of the scriptures being changed. Got any online references for that stuff so I can go through it?

And this is not about autism, this is about discrediting Jesus as "The Way, The Truth and The Life, and no-one comes to The Father except through Him ["me"', John 14:6.] U might not be concerned about this because you believe that its bullshit, but I am concerned because I believe that it is the only way to the Father. Your friends, though respectful of your journey, must be freaking out!

hmmm he has a point!

umm I would just like to say here that I AM JESTER'S WIFE, NOT A HE

UMMM yes People are stupid and buy into bull shit. you ever watch Penn & Teller's BULL SHIT, on Showtime? Deople beLIEve all sorts of bullshit that has been disproven.

I couldn't agree more my smurf :)

Well you are a male smurf in your picture so I just assumed. My apologies.

Do U think I am male or a female?

I dont apologise for saying that your opinions on the validity of the bible are just that! Your opinion! And just for my temper's sake, stop implying that I am stupid!

Ok so whats your story with all this belief stuff Mrs Smurf? And how long have you guys been together? How old are U 2?

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Well that's good. I hope you find what you are looking for.

I would say though, that people stop believing in "BS" when it costs them their lives, and there are TONS of historical records of TONS of people giving their lives for Christ in the early centuries up through today.

First of all I would just like to say that when Christians are trying to prove a point about Christianity and use words such as "bullshit," it's kind of hard to prove that point when the bible specifically talks about taming your tongue; hypocritical if you ask me.
Second, I, along with you Jester, am married. I got married almost a year ago at the age of 20. Now if you believe in the validity of the bible or not, wouldn't you say that its standards for marriage are one of the best. It gives you a clear plan on how to make your marriage great. Obviously, I haven't been married for too long, but I feel that our marriage is following what the bible has to say about it. Along with the outline for marriage, the bible is full of teachings that nothing else comes close to. Morallity got its existence somewhere. The laws, the government, it all originated from the bible. Nothing else on earth compares to the bible. It has effected more peoples lives than anything else has. Now if you believe in God (which you said you do), why would God allow these things to happen if Christianity was not the right way? Why would the bible be the all-time best-selling book if this God did not condone Christianity? Now I realize, and agree, that the bible has been changed throughout the centuries. And? Has it caused mass chaos, or destruction? So it changed throughout the centuries, is this to say that God had no say in it at all? What if this was God's plan all along? So what if a few words were changed to make it sound better, will this really change your outlook on Christianity? Some of these questions cannot be answered, why, because there is no way of knowing the answers. We cannot even conceive what the mind of God is like. The mind of God that created this earth and all its inhabitants in such a way, that we will never understand it. (Once again, I'm coming from the viewpoint that there is a God because you acknoweldged that you believe in Him.)
Who is God to you?

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Actually, Jester, I would like to hear your thoughts on what the bible says about marriage. And if you are willing, I would also like to hear what the foundation of your marriage is and the keys you think are crucial to keeping marriage alive.
And about the swearing thing, that was my reference towards Sincir for using "BS." But the bible talks about taming the tongue in James chapter 3. Swearing is not a sin, but does that mean that it is good. There are more references in the bible pertaining to watching what you say, rather than the opposite.

-Dario-

"What we do in life, echos in eternity."

I can't say the "Why would God let the Bible become so popular if it wasn't good" is a convincing argument. Islam is something I consider to be evil, and yet God has lat that spread quite a bit.

I still do not see how the Bible has changed. No one has yet given any evidence to this effect.

First of all, Since I'm Jester's WIFE, I don't feel that we need to justify our Marriage to anyone, especially not you. If Jester feels like shedding any light on your question that is up to him. But if you want some background information on me:

I'll be 24 years old on Tuesday. We have almost 2 children together. (Will be "official" in 6 weeks) We have been married for almost 5 years. Now if you look at our age that would mean he and I married when he was 18 and I was 19. Now because of our age, people automatically assume that I got Prego and that is why we got married. When in all actuality I got Prego 7 months after we got married. Jester and I only knew each other 9 month before we got married. Some people will say it's fast, but as most people know... You know when the other person is the RIGHT person for you. Now, I came from a broken home. I'm child 4 out of 5 and my mother has been married and divorced 5 or 6 different times. Only my older brother (Who's a converted Mormon) are "real" brother and sister. I still see my other brother and sister's as "real" but we just share the same mother.

Anyways.... I'm also Bi-Sexual. Now before you all stone me to death...... In your option do people chose or are they born: Gay or Bi or Straight or A Sexual.??? I feel that the reason for me being Bi-Sexual is because my first memory was when I was 3.5 years old being sexually molested by my 17 year old MALE Babysitter. So, wouldn't it be logical for me to fear men.

Jester and I were both virgins when we first got together and YES we lost our virginity to each other. Now both Jester and I are open minded mentally and sexually. I think it takes a REAL Man to handle a Bi-Sexual Woman who is also Bi-Polar and suffers from Social Anxiety Disorder. But If you met me in real life one would never even know. Why? Because my "front" is putting up the facade of being a Happy Person. Now obviously Jester knows ME and not just my facade.

So, I guess there is some background info on me... and Please do not stone me to death for expressing for who I really am.

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Yes Marriage is "give and take", but one of Jester's Pet Peeves is to Never Deny For Who You Really Are. Jester hates the fact that I try to conceal my Bi-Sexuality, just because I'm married. He still wants me to Be ME and express for Who I AM. I do the same for him. He is his OWN Person but He's also my husband and I would NOT want him to deny who he is, especially to me.