Tired of being saved
 

Lord please save me from your followers

I know exactly where you are coming from... I denounced my faith in the same fashion as you when I was around 15 due to a falling out with my family and church (it was all I knew and all I trusted and they both failed me)...

You don't have to attend a church to be of faith, nor are you expected to suck up to anyone to be accepted or normal. Jesus never kissed anyone's ass either... You have a family of your own now and that's where your priorities are!

If you have time, I would we interested in hearing about the studies you are delving into as of late that would cause you to change your position on your faith. imo, there's more to it than that, and you starting this thread shows your lack of commitment even through the toughest of trials.

Hang in there, and don't stop communications here...

Heaven

:pimp:

Why exactly did you guys renounce your Faith? What is it you dodn't believe anymore?

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Umm, well actually, plenty of Christians DON'T believe Jesus was an only child, although I do.

I assume I can't convicne you of the fact that Jesus is the Son of God by quoting the Bible, since you obviously wouldn't accept it as inspired. But, all but the most prejudiced of secular scholars accept the Gospels as historically valid, if not necessarily doctrinally correct. But if Jesus lived, said and did all the things that are in the Gospels, I would find it hard to believe He was NOT the Son of God, although obviously one must have some Faith.

It certainly is not "factually impossible". If there is a God, then certainly Jesus could rise from the dead. Although, obviously, if you are not going to believe it, you jsut are not going to believe it.

I do hope you change your mind though.

Yah know...Jester, I know exactly how you are feeling...I grew up in a catholic family, my parents are very religious, my sister, my friends, people on my work...
Even though not all are catholics, all of them have a religion... and obviously believe in God but ...as for me , even though I'm catholic...I have a lot of questions that Church or whatever religion cannot answer...
I 'm a very rational person and so it's quite hard to accept the religion true. I disagree with a lot of principles and positions made by religions...
But you know, I never said it before... sometimes I miss something...and I don't know what it is ...
I really try ...but I can't...

PS: It's funny...I never posted here...I dont even like to talk about religion, I dont feel comfortable...but since I disagree with a friend and had a hard discussion (and felt very sad ) about faith and religion...religion is in my mind... ;)

I think one of the reasons people can get pissed about what other people do "in the name of religion" is because a lot of people do STUPID THINGS in the name of religion. Don't judge everyone who has a strong faith by a few overzealous and possibly erroneous people's actions.

Past tense uncertaindrummer...

I got it back!

Still waiting for a reply Jester. What are you studying that contradicts Jesus as the son of God?

Heaven

:pimp:

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You came to the point. This is my question too.


Church did a lot of stupid things in the name of religion.

“So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.” (Rom 7:4-5)

This passage appears in the context of Romans 6, 7 and 8, in which Paul is presenting a contrast between being controlled by the sinful nature and being led by the Spirit of God...

One produces sin (“fruit for death”), while the other produces righteousness (“fruit to God”). It is not speaking of making good disciples versus making bad disciples.

An analogy can be found in the relationship between a parent and a child. A parent can create the condition that makes disobedience possible yet the parent remains innocent if the child sins. For example, if a parent tells his child to clean up his room and the child does not, he has rebelled. But, the parent is not responsible for the child’s sin, nor did he cause the child to sin.

The child had a choice to obey or not to obey, just as we do...

It's called freewill.

Heaven

:pimp:

Sounds like the Gnostic Gospel has really had an impact on you.

Problem is, not all agree that the Christian Gospel was stolen from those ancient stories of Agustus and such. Some believe that they way God went about the birth of Christ was so that pagan religions would sit up and take notice.

Anways, what I am trying to say is that U will read other things and they will have a huge impact on your beliefs too. Dont allow the Gnostic Gospel to be the be-all-end-all of your searching, or U will be doing just what U think we are doing, believing one books opinion blindly.

Keep asking, keep seeking, keep knocking...

I like this. I like U.:jam:

First off, I think the good fruit bad fruit thing was answered. Second:

The Crusades were really nothing mroe than DEFENSIVE WAR. I don't see why people have so much problem with the Crusades. The Mohommadens ATTACKED the Holy Land and CONQUERED it. The Crusades were merely attempts to get it BACK. Was the United States EVIL for trying to give France and Poland their freedom back in WWII? I think not. Were there abuses? Sure. I'm positive PLENTY of bad thigns happened that should not have.

The same goes for the Crusades. They were GOOD in nature--trying to win back something had been stolen. But of course, being HUMAN BEINGS, abuses occured. But it isn't like the Crusades were evil.

The Inquisitions are a lot like the Crusades. It may seem AMAZING in this God-given time of religious freedom, but in the 14-1600's, Islam was a HUGE and IMMEDIATE threat to all of Christianized Europe. The inquisitions were created to root out Islamic spies and such. Now were there abuses? OF COURSE. There are ALWAYS problems with ANY plan of men, no matter how glorious in nature. CHARITIES for poor children in South America often take more money than they should--does that mean that charities, and everyone who works for them, are evil? Of course not.

And Ana, you say the Church has done stupid thigns in the name of religion? I would ask for specific instances. Granted, the Papal States DID do some stupid things, but that was NOT the Church. That was the Popes using political power that they should never have had. They might have hidden under the guise of religion, but in truth, their actions had nothing to DO with it, and hence, nothing to do with the Church.

Humm, AGAIN ? I 've already said it to you...and also gave you quite a few examples...actually someone in the name of the Catholic religion did stupid things...the Popes did, so arent the Popes the most important Roman Catholic Church.authorities?
You are a religious guy and believe in God, fine.So this kinda of thing won't cease you being a firm believer.
And also, I'm not saying I don't believe in God. ;)

PS:Look, I will stop it now...cuz I don't want to argue with you no more...ok? ;)

Well actually I still haven't been given ANY examples of Popes doing stupid things from you, ALTHOUGH they most certainly have. But no Catholic will ever claim Popes are PERFECT. They cannot teach error when proclaiming a doctrine to the whole Church, and when it is a matter of faith and morals. THAT'S IT. Outside of Faith and morals within a teaching to the whole church, they can still sin, be stupid, and do ridiculous things like the rest of us.

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Most certainly so. However, no "objective material" would ever go so far as to deny the Gospels historical validity. Only the MOST prejudiced of historical scholars would do so.

But of course, the Gospels being historically valid does not necessarily mean Jesus was God. That takes Faith, although reason does have a lot to do with it, such as the fact that eleven men--the surviving Apostles--either: knew it was a hoax and died for it anyway (which is ridiculous) or knew it was true, and thus they died for Him. That makes sense.

Sure there are a million arguments either way, so it definitely takes Faith to believe in Jesus.

Examples??? PM...Uncertain...PM... don't you remember it? :rolleyes:
But I'll send another to you later, Ok?

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Considering I've been living the last 5 years of my life with a Thelogical Family (Thanks Jester) :| You shouldn't always believe what's spoken. You need to research and figure out the right. Who cares for what religion "say" it's all about ideas and ones one spiritual journey.

Point of Order. I don't know what scholars you are refering to, who say.. The New Testiment (the gospels) are historically viable... but you obviously havn't been Reading and Doing Research. You have been taking people's words for it.

True some events may have happened, but not nessesarly as they are told in the bible.

Why on Earth would people die for something they KNOW not to be true? Joseph Smith never died for his Faith. He actually profited QUITE A BIT from it.

And what evidence do you have that the gosepsl were written 300 years after his death? Very little or none, becasue it just is not true. Also, the Gospels do not contradict each other. The most serious contradiction is their different descriptions of the Robe Jesus was wearing, and that is easily explained by even common sense.

But like I said: if you don't want to believe, you aren't GOING to believe.

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Right on Jester ;) :clap:

I HAVE done research on it actually, I'll get sources later.

Fair enough. I agree heaps with that.

But I am gonna be very careful reading stuff like the Gnostic Gospels cos there is tarot reading and alchemy involved to name two of their spiritual sources.

I have looked into alchemy and tarot reading, so I will think twice about anything else coming from the Gnostic collective!

....This aint just about literature with you though, your whole issue with Christianity. It aint just about U reading something and the lights turned on. And I recon U know that.

Also, for others that spoke of christians doing dumbass shit in the name of God over the centuries, I totally agree with U. I unfortunately have met Jesus and am in love with him, so I am unfortunately associated with them! Bah!

One thing the pope did was bless tanks as they went out to war once. Grrrr. See what I mean? Just drives me NUTS!

I don't ever recall a Pope blessing "tanks" although he might have blessed the soliders, and that would be perfectly fine.

Also, I would recommend ANYONE to read the Founding of Christendom by Warren H. Carroll. It is undoubtedly from a Christian persective, but he backs all of his history up with facts, mostly from neutral sources, and ANYONE would learn from reading it, especially volume 1.

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Just wondering since U seem to know alot, didnt the dead sea scrolls give us original copies of most of the books in the bible? Or in your opinion, where these corrupted as well?

Theres no point in commenting about your views on those people, Moses etc, that U listed cos its gonna be covered by somebody else no doubt, but I feel its just your view and no more the truth than any other brain can discern.

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Keeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeel :smokin:

:dunno:

Were there women at the tomb and how many? There is no contradiction here.
Were there psot resurrection appearances? Yes, and no Gospel says otherwise.
How many days did Christ remain on earth? This isn't exactly a horribly necessary answer, but it is believed to be forty days.
Did He do miracles after the resurrection? Maybe, maybe not. Who cares?
Did He ascend into Heaven? Yes, and no Gospel disputes that.
The Resurrection was PHYSICAL and no part of any Gospel says otherwise. You clearly do not knwo the Bible nearly as well as you seem to think, so before telling us that we're lambs headed for the slaughter, learn a little bit about what you are speaking of.

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Actually, NONE of the gospels EVER say what year he was born, that's ridiculous. Why not tell me where it says that, huh?

Also, none of the Gospels say he was born in Nazareth. He is Jesus of Nazareth becuase that is where He lives, but He was born in Bethlehem and I challenge you to prove otherwise. Did you just MAKE all of this stuff up?

And I also would like you to tell me where it says Jesus was only on earth for one day after the Resurrection.

Unfortunately, I will get no answers, because there ARE no such Bible verses.

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