Re: "Americans kill dozens of prisoners"
 

It's actions which ENDED THE COLD WAR. Thse who have lived very little of their lives under the threat of a nuclear war don't understand what it was like. Were mistakes made? Sure. But the U.S. kept the world from BLOWING ITSELF UP, and surely that's a good thing.

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I ll be glad if u can present ANY facts to authenticate ur statement my freind............ Just blaming my religion for all the tention muslim countries have today is rediculous.............. its true religions have always been at war with each other .............. but here ur just being pointless and obsured............... and i hate to say...... a little biased too

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http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/sto...ad&floc=NW_1-T

Just another example of these idiots running around blowing themselves and their own people up. This must be stopped. There is no place in the world for all this hate. Iraq deserves to be free again and these people must fight these suicide bombers, there wasn't even a military target it was just regular Iraqi people getting killed while fillling their car with gas. I dont know Anna , war is horrible but there is no political soultion to this crap, it never ends!

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Wow, Stephen...you know I love you...but after saying this I reeally hope you dont say that muslim world is EVIL... while America represents Goodness and Bush is ...God...:rolleyes:

Seriously I know what you meant...the problem isnt the 'religion' ...but how governements are using this religion to control people and keep themselves in the power...I mean trying to keep muslim people blind trough the use of religious beliefs...

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I never said Bush is God. That is so absurd. I think Bush is in the wrong religion, I think he is often a nut head. I never said Islam is evil either. But would it surprise anyone I think they are responsible for a LOT of problems? I think the religion is totally false and built off a lie, it focuses on the degredation of women, the defeat of the infidels, war war war. Someone please show me where this HASN'T been a major thing Islam has focused on. When have they been peaceful? Im not saying every individual is a warmonger, but the religion as a whole seems to breed violence. You can say it doesn't mean to if you really want (I have never read much of the koran, or however you spell it) but regardless of what it means to do it DOES cause a lot of problems.

Someone wants proof? Islam took over half the world in a matter of years. there have been religious wars between Islam and... everyone... ever since. Don't try to tell me that isn't Islam's fault. When Christianity was expanding rapidly at the beginning of the calendar, it did so by conversion and peaceful means. Islam just conquered everyone.

You might think this is all lacking in tact but the gist is true. I am not saying, either, that "Christians" haven't used their own God for ridiculous purposes. But usually they do it in spite of their God, not because of their God.

You think I think America represents goodness? Ummm... hello? We murder millions a year and basically created the morally corrupt and depraved generation we now live in. Rampant sexuality, pornography, abortion, lack of morals, etc. etc. Are all children of America. America is the anti-Islam. Islam is what happens when you use a religious idea to make war. America is what happens when you get rid of all Religious ideals period. Islam isn't responsible for all the world's problems. America has plenty to do with that, as does Germany, Russia, Britain etc. etc. But I'm not gonna sit here and say "Oh yeah, Islam has been a quiet peaceful state for all time and a few extremists are ruining its name" because that just is not true.

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Uncertain does make a few valid points, even though we totally disagree on alot of things. I think as a human race we are destined to destroy ourselves. The good will be saved while the bad rot in hell for the atrocities they committ. I dont know if any of you guys have read the predictions that nostradamus fortold but to be honest Im getting a little concerned with the direction the world is going. Its been five years since 9/11 and you got to believe that Osama is up to something big and I really hope we get that fuck before he comes up with any more killing sprees.

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Give me a break. When you have Islamo-fascists executing innocent men in women while chanting "God is great" you can't tell me that religion doesn't play a part in that. What about these people are promised a bunch of virgins in Heaven if they go blow up a shopping mall, killing themselves and dozens of innocent people in the process? Islam is exporting violent extremists who target innocent people. There's nothing but hatred, violence, intolerance, and human rights violence being spewed out of the Middle East and what's most disturbing is that this has been the story since the 14 Century.

They are obviously unable to coexist with non-Muslims... or even Muslims of different religious sects for that matter... and that is a result of Islam.

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I can agree that islam is a religion still in the 14 century spreading violence...but still its our opinion...our western opinion...that of course is biased...but I cant say their religion is false...

I think you miss you history classes...



I can see good points in here...and Im glad you at least recognize the (bad) part of your country in this situation...

Did you ever sit and notice that they think the same about your America...its too much a biased and naive opinion to put all the blame just in Islamism ...and completely ignoring the enormous problem WE have...

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I don't care what they think. I didn't go kill three thousand of them did I?

And yeah, Christianity DID initially spread through conversion. It ALWAYS spreads mthrough conversion. Some people TRY to force it on others but it has never and most likely will never work. You can't force someone to be a Christian.

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Again...my point is...religion is being used by governements and fake leaders...to control people and keep them ignorant...what its necessary in my opinion is a revolution in islamic world to put the people aware of their social rights and consequently to take this kind of extremists off the power...

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And the enormous problem we have is...?

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Since the 8th century.


They don't really have any. And don't tell me they have intrinsic social rights either. Only a religion could ever logically claim such a thing and that's what you are blaming.

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WOW!!!!!! Now you will help me to put my point....America (West) simply doenst CARE about others people...countries.. social probelms ...dictaorships ...abuses...whatever...you just care NOW...because you were attacked in your 'happy way of life'...and now you noticed that Islamic world exists...

Its a very christian position btw...

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Hey...when you quote someone...put the name...right? --I thought you were quoting Chase...anyway...I didnt understand why you quote me ..I said they dont have rights...but that they need to realize the importance of it...

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INTOLERANCE...in every possible kind of this ...

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Besides suggesting we rely on the UN to solve all the worlds problems with resolutions and treaties that always end up ignored, what's the solution? Education?, sure if it can be delivered without an anti anybody bias.
I suppose western forces could've stayed out of the middle east, but did the middle eastern conflicts stay out of the western world?(Isreal)
I do tend to approach things sort of one sided. My way of life is under attack and I can't summon the "wisdom" of neutrality.

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What are you talking about? Hitler never sent a bomb to North America, but we still shed American blood over the Old World (Europe)... twice in fact.

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Chase...im curious....what did you study besides WWII?

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I visited the towns of Karlsbäck and Bjurholm and the city of Umio. I had an excellent time, with beautiful weather, outstanding food, great partying, meeting very exceptional people and a winning icehockey-team.

At a later time, I will put some photo's up on our website www.aowekino.nl .

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There is no true religion, all religions are false and there are extremists or a better word maybe fundamentalists of all religions over the world, who prove it on a day to day basis..., but that's just my humble opinion on the matter.


The islam has been a religion, that depended on war to increase itself for a long time. But the Christian crusaders were maybe even more cruel and relentless, also Christianity has forced itself on the people of Africa and America with its missionaries, accompanied by soldiers, who forced natives to become Christian or be killed. Anyway I do believe Christianity has become more moderate and that Islam has a long way to go in that, but I don't think Christianity deserves any praise for that. The enlightenment and the increase in liberal-humanistic values and the separation of church and state and the freedom of expression, media and even the freedom to mock things c.q. institutions is what has made the west more moderate and less tolerant to the radical religious. In other words education about the atrocities made in the name of religion and the lies spread in the name of God has made the West less susceptible to being lied to about things happening in the name of God. This lesson still needs to be learned in most islam nations. And the most frightening thing to the radical islam is that the learning of lesson in the end will be inevitable, this is why they strike out so hard against anything that will open doors to do so.


The American dream used to be what many in the world aspired, but as the saying goes: power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. As long as the USA had a counterpart in the communist East, there seemed to be a worldwide system of checks and balances, ofcourse everyone in the free world, was on the side of the USA at that time. But as the iron curtain fell and the USA became the only superpower, its tendencies also became more dictatorial instead of based on cooperation. Statements like 'you are either for us or against us' leave no room for a third opinion. It is no longer allowed to disagree without being treated as an enemy. Laws are being fascillitated to invade friendly countries.

I both fear islam, because it is an unenlightened absolute religion, and the state to which conservatism has led the USA, I hope in both cases education is the answer and that in the end reason will prevail.

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The USA entered WWI because an American passengership (the Lusithania, if I remember correctly) was sank by torpedos by German U-boats.

In the second World War the USA joined the allied forces when Pearl Harbor was attacked by the Japanese and by declaring war on Japan, they also did on their allies the Germans (and Italians).

In both cases thus the USA only entered the war after being attacked itself, while in both cases there was much more evidence of wrong-doing as in the case of the invasion of Iraq, so please don't bend history to fit your needs, Chase.

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Are you guys saying somehow its WRONG to not enter a war...? That is confusing.

And RalphyS, of course you don't think there is a true religion. Aren't you an atheist? But don't tell me the Crusaders were even "more cruel". First, they were fighting a defensive war, second, war is ALWAYS bad and there will always be abuses. But they were only trying to take back what Islam had taken already. Third, how does one define being "more cruel"? I mean, doesn't killing anyone who converts from Islam qualify as pretty darn cruel?

Our problem is intolerance, Ana? That is an absurd idea. It is ridiculous to even mention it. If one complains about intolerant people, one is being intolerant of intolerant people. Basically what those who claim we are intolerant want us to say is that everyone can have an opinion, EXCEPT the opinion that others are wrong. That is a ludicrous position, one brought on by the moral realtivistic and ethically bankrupt society of today. It also reeks of pantheism, which is extremely hard to defend.

I'm not saying the war on Iraq is good or that America is perfect or anything like that, but it is not because we are intolerant that we have done things.

And actually, Ralph makes a very good point about the Soviet Union being a sort of counter balance to America. I think America was probably headed down its current path anyway. After the WWII generation made us a superpower, the baby boomers used our extreme riches and influence to buy SUV's and other wasteful unnecessary things. Still, the end of the USSR probably accelerated this at the very least.


now I noticed the Islamic world exists? I always knew about the Islamic world. Unlike most, I actually know some history--something America's public school system does a crappy job of teaching, like almost everything else--and know just how big a problem they have always been. Try to think of a major period in the last 13 centuries when the Middle East HASN'T had lots of problems.... Won't happen.

As for proving your point... I said "I" Don't care what they think. My country for the most part does, but as far as my bias versus their bias, DUH! Of course I am biased. And I said I don't care what they think, not what they do.

I am surprised, you being somewhat feminist, that you don't hold a rather large grudge against Islam for continually holding your entire gender in relative contempt.

And as for the social rights thing, you are doing what I said not to. You claim they are important but have no basis for that. You can't just out of thin air claim something is important. Are you religious Ana? If not, where do you gt the idea that social rights are important? After all, in America we have plenty, and you seem to hate America.

Well that's all the unpolitically correct vituperations I've got time for right now. Cheers people.

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I never stated anywhere that it is wrong to not enter a war. Chase has a habit of comparing the offensive war in Iraq with his version of the 2 World Wars, where the USA came to the rescue of the Allied Nations 'out of the goodness of their heart' without any need to do so.

And although history is usually rewritten by the winners of the latest war, I once again couldn't let it slip by. Ofcourse I cannot deny that we owe a gratitude of debt to the USA for their part in the eventual victory in WWII, as we also do to England and Canada.

To describe the crusader's position as a defensive one is also an own interpretation of history. At one time the first Christians came to Jerusalem and it wasn't a Christian nation so it had to be conquered. I think, without looking this up now, that the crusades took place over a period of at least 2 centuries and the offensive and defensive parties changed all the time. If you come from France and England and other parts of Central or Western Europe with your armies to wage a war in Israel/Palestine I would not call it a defensive position. And the crusaders were very well known for being, to put it very mildly, harsh when conquering cities in the region, while the armies of Saladin were at times very generous to those who surrendered. Not to say that it is a totally reliable historical account, but watch the movie 'Kingdom of heaven' for a bit of an inkling of the situation. Ofcourse there is more and better literature on the subject.

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Well. Yeah. Chase has a habit of stretching things to defend the war on Iraq, but you can't blame him. You kinda have to stretch things to defend this war, heh.


Come on, don't make yourself look stupid by pretending Canada was responsible for WWII victory. Say what you will about the U.S. but we won that war. Sure others--especially Britain--helped, but without the U.S., not a chance.



Umm... how? It was Christian, the Muslims invaded and conquered... taking it back (or attempting to) is a responsive, defensive action.



Show me where the Cristians militarily conquered Jerusalem.


In terms of battle tactics, sure. But Islam started the whole thing.


that's because you look at it in a modern point of view. You can't do that and still understand what went on. It was not France attacking Jerusalem. It was Christianity attempting to free the Holy Land from Mulsims.


There are always those who will be harsh or needlessly destructive, but the Crusades were not nearly the parody of despicability most make them out to be.



:rolleyes:



You got that right.

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I dont have enough time to comment all of your absurd post ...and Ill do it later....but saying that I hate America is...wow!!!!! :rolleyes:

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I actually looked it up on wikipedia.org and the city of Jerusalem was under Arab/Islam rule from 638 CE to 1099 CE, when the first crusade conquered it.

It was never in Roman Catholic hands before that, so it seems the crusaders were the offensive force, they were apparently provoked to do so by stories of churches being destroyed in the city.

In the first centuries CE Jerusalem was a relatively small and unimportant Roman town.


Comparing the conquest of Jerusalem in 1099 with a defensive war because the Christians took it back would therefore be the same as describing an English invasion of the USA now as defensive for taking back its colonies.

And the quoted part in the text describes the atrocities of the crusaders quite accurately, it wasn't even written by the side that the atrocities where commited upon.

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No, it wouldn't. Once again you look at this like states instead of religions. To have unbelievers in posession of the Holy Land was embarassing and unbearable. They wanted to take back the Holy Land because Christians were not always allowed in, pilgramages were nearly impossible, Christians had no rights when visiting their own origins, etc.

And I also said they were defensive in nature, if anything. I don't really think they were so clear cut. They were religious wars. After they started they never really ended. But Islam was the intial agrressor. That is all I mean by saying defensive in nature. Another problem with your Britain analogy is that Britan and the U.S. have not been constantly at war for the last two hundred years.

As for the Church never "owning" Jerusalem, that is because the Church rarely "owns" anything, except Vatican City. The only major exception was in the medeival era the ill-fated Papal States which... were a bad bad idea. Even then, the Pope was not in direct control of the countries. There were monarchs.

Also, the Church did not attack the Holy Land. Popes often organized the crusades and offered plenary indulgences to those who would go, but the rulers of the Christian nations gained what they conquered. Actually, one of the worst abuses in the Crusades was when, after promising the return of lands previously controlled by the Eastern Empire, the majority of the military commanders failed to do so.

I'm not saying bad things didn't happen. I mean, its war. Bad things ALWAYS happen. That's why I think the Iraq war is so wrong. But it was not a war the Christians ever wanted.

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And Ana, I said you "seem" to hate America. Before yelling about it, think about it. You are always anti-American in your posts. Why WOULDN'T someone think you dislike America? If you don't, GREAT, but clarify it.

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Yeah... you really "have to stretch" the thousands of people killed as a result of Saddam Hussein's genocide. Wise up.

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Always anti-American in my posts?? Are you uncertain really saying it? Well I could easily understand if Chase was saying it...but you...:eek:

But okay....i respond your biased comment: No, Im not anti american...like always Im saying that I have nothing against U.S.and americans (I do consider some of you here as my friends;) ) --what I clearly dislike is american foreign policy(im sick of saying it!)...and consequently Bush's position in using war as a solution to everything in the world....and as result painting a primitive scenario of good (america) and evil (muslim world)....btw its very disappointing to see that you are buying this 'simplistic' (?) scenario as true...

But maybe its the fact that being a foreing I can see (as Ralphy) things in others perspectives...I mean out of the american 'focus'...but of course inside a historical view...

Have you ever think why non-americans seems to be 'against' america? Are they ignorant, liers, bad people??? Well ...maybe they are not blind...

Do you believe that all of us outside US --HATE America???? Because if your answer is affirmative...you are the most naive person I know, Stephen...:rolleyes:

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You're wrong. The RMS Lusitania was a British passenger ship... and the Germans declared war on the United States after Japan attacked the United States. Hitler wasn't concentrated on America and wasn't obligated to declare war on the U.S. due to the conditions of the Tripartite Pact of 1940. He actually had a problem with the U.S. being a neutral country because he knew that the Americans would do business with the British and provide sell them old naval destroyers.

Either way... the U.S. really didn't have to go to Europe. We could've just focused on Japan.

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But Bush doesn't always use war. If that was the case, then we would be in war with North Korea, Iran, Syria, and Venezuela.

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hunm...how many years he still has as U.S. president???:rolleyes:

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I know you really, really want to think that America is a warmongering fascist state, but I'm you're going to be disappointed by the fact that it is not. Bush leaves office officially in January of 2009 and seriously doubt that we're going to have anymore wars unless Iran attacks Israel or if North Korea attacks Japan, or if Syria attacks Lebanon, Israel, or Iraq... or if China invades Taiwan.

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I'm not saying the war on Iraq is good or that America is perfect or anything like that, but it is not because we are intolerant that we have done things.

You can use all the concepts you want... but its clearly INTOLERANCE that puts all of us in this dramatic world full of wars...unless you dont know the meaning of intolerance...(do you? )

Intolerance is based in prejudice, and can lead to discrimination....Common forms of intolerance include racism, sexism, homophobia, ageism, religious intolerance, and intolerance of differing political views.



I didnt say literally YOU Stephen! And Im sure you know History....(btw you have a very good knowledge in History issues...;) ) but this has nothing to do with my point...I was refering to US governors who obviously ignored other countries until 11/09 attacks...

;)


You know..you were offline for a while...so it must explain your innacurate statement...in the thread about muslim cartoons posted by Chase...I said that muslim women seemed to be more willing to changes...because they were so opressed that need these changes...

and yeah....being the only woman posting regularly on Political Banter..I need to be a feminist to defend women here ...lol


Wow...only being a religious woman I can see the social rights as important things?? Did I say that in America you dont have social rights? I dont remember saying this absurd...unless you are refering to the title of this thread...huh? ..:rolleyes:

Also...explain to me what do you consider as social rights...



Cheers.... Stephen...Cheers!!!:D

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And I know you really, really want to think that I am a Osamas's fan or Saddam's admirer...but you are going to be disappointed by the fact that Im not...lol

Oh... Bush still has all this time? ...I think its enough time to find some excuse (evidences...) to start another war...but maybe you are right...:rolleyes:

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"or if China invades Taiwan" The pledge to defend Taiwan was made long before Pres. Bush came to office. This is the possible conflict that makes me very nervous:bump:

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I know what intolerance is. I don't think America is intolerant. I think we are too tolerant.





Ignored other countries? Exactly what did you want us to do? I mean, did we ignroe Kuwait? I don't think so.




They are oppressed. Very much so. I am amazed that America's super liberal feminist majority hasn't damned all of Islam for their treatment of women.


Meh. Don't worry about me. I greatly respect the inferior sex! (lol, in case you didn't catch that, I was totally joking)




Only someone with a basis for even believing they are RIGHTS at all is what I mean. What leads you to believe social rights are important? If it is something besides religion, sobeit. But I can't think of anything else that would say social rights are good with any kind of logicality or authority.


Depends on what you mean. Do you mean what do I consider as what SHOULD be social rights, what ARE social rights...?




Indeed. :smokin:

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Lol. Nah. The American people are tough to dupe twice. I strongly strongly doubt the possibility of another war, unless some other country does something like... I dunno... blow up Pearl Harbor.

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oh come now they will blow up something im sure they are cooking right now on another famous usa landmark