France faces violence...

[Ana4Stapp]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9891709/

France is facing an huge violence since those two teen died a few days ago... actions like attacking cars, burning schools ...seems to force french to realize that they have people who live apart from 'society'...and now these people are 'screaming'

[Rocketqueen]

its a sight i tell ya haaaaa its all good sweet heart they needed to let a little stress off

[RMadd]

yes RQ, let's advocate violent civil unrest, why don't we? believe it or not, there's better ways to go about making your grievances known than through rioting....

[eusebioCBR]

This is a very unfortunate series of events. I wonder what they believe will be gained from this vandalism? Employment, who will be forced to create/provide jobs for them? Education, who will pay for it and and what if they don't meet basic standards for university/vocational training? Do they expect opportunity to be handed to them? If these immigrants are so unhappy in France why don't they go home? Should tantrums be rewarded? Perhaps they'll succeed in forcing the French government to fix their lives at the tax payers expence.

[Ana4Stapp]

Im too far from defending any kind of vandalism :eek: but right now I was reading the newspaper about this situation in France and there was an huge protest in 1983 made by the same people for the same reasons(rights/jobs/education etc...) and it means that in more than 20 years nothing changed ...

And the 'ironic' point is that France always was proud of its " LIBERTÉ, IGUALITÉ and FRATERNITÉ.... :rolleyes:

[HeavenBesideYou]

yes RQ, let's advocate violent civil unrest, why don't we? believe it or not, there's better ways to go about making your grievances known than through rioting....

What you don't hear; the truth... (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9940332/)

My story...

The LA riots.

We were working in a section 8 housing development when the verdict came down...

"Not guilty!"

What a crock!!! The most flagerant abuse of deadly force/ S.O.P. I have witnessed since Kent state my friends.

My bosses voice on the radio, "Get out of LA guys!!!" click... "Don't bother picking up your tools. just get out and get back here safely!" click... I called my wife, to let her know I was safe and would be home soon.

We had a Thomas guide, and radios thank God, to guide us back to our shop in Pasadena.

That night several businesses in our town were looted, ransacked, burned, or vandalized. I awoke the next day to find ashes falling from the sky in my front yard, the same yard my son played in, and I remember talking to my wife about how unfare our system is to the oppressed and underpriveledged. I was upset at the rioters, mostly because they were causing more trouble for themselves, but because they were burning down MY TOWN!!! Where I was born and raise for God's sake!

Unjustified?

No.

How selfish of me to call a spade a spade without having to walk in their shoes.

I learned a lot during the riots, did some investigating on act 1, and paid closer attention to what really happened to Rodney that night. I also educated myself on why humans react the way they do in under certain conditions, things that seem so extreme to us are usually cries for justice, plea's for help, voices unheard speaking to the world. It's their chance to be heard.

Remember this, people don't protest because they are content with our society and its ways, they protest because things are going wrong and it is affecting them personnaly. People dont revolt against the system without just cause, it goes back since time began, and without it, we wouldn't be where we are today. We have to keep checks and balances or we would not have the rights we have... Jesus in the temple for example, is just one case in which someone had to stand up against corruption in government. There are dozens of examples I can post by Christians, Muslums, Jews, Whites, Indians, Chinese, Japanese, Germans, Brits, Africans, the list goes on and on..., that back up the need to voice one's opinions and views to better what's happening at that very time in history.

To sit back in our ez-chairs and judge what we do not know only adds to the problem that they are revolting against.

I urge you to educate yourselves on the why and the what instead of complaining about what you think you know.

Heaven

:pimp:

[Rocketqueen]

yes RQ, let's advocate violent civil unrest, why don't we? believe it or not, there's better ways to go about making your grievances known than through rioting.... uh uh uh uh why ? riots always prove a point see how we all are proving ours in this thread :D

[Ana4Stapp]

What you don't hear; the truth... (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9940332/)

My story...

The LA riots.

We were working in a section 8 housing development when the verdict came down...

"Not guilty!"

What a crock!!! The most flagerant abuse of deadly force/ S.O.P. I have witnessed since Kent state my friends.

My bosses voice on the radio, "Get out of LA guys!!!" click... "Don't bother picking up your tools. just get out and get back here safely!" click... I called my wife, to let her know I was safe and would be home soon.

We had a Thomas guide, and radios thank God, to guide us back to our shop in Pasadena.

That night several businesses in our town were looted, ransacked, burned, or vandalized. I awoke the next day to find ashes falling from the sky in my front yard, the same yard my son played in, and I remember talking to my wife about how unfare our system is to the oppressed and underpriveledged. I was upset at the rioters, mostly because they were causing more trouble for themselves, but because they were burning down MY TOWN!!! Where I was born and raise for God's sake!

Unjustified?

No.

How selfish of me to call a spade a spade without having to walk in their shoes.

I learned a lot during the riots, did some investigating on act 1, and paid closer attention to what really happened to Rodney that night. I also educated myself on why humans react the way they do in under certain conditions, things that seem so extreme to us are usually cries for justice, plea's for help, voices unheard speaking to the world. It's their chance to be heard.
Remember this, people don't protest because they are content with our society and its ways, they protest because things are going wrong and it is affecting them personnaly. People dont revolt against the system without just cause, it goes back since time began, and without it, we wouldn't be where we are today. We have to keep checks and balances or we would not have the rights we have... Jesus in the temple for example, is just one case in which someone had to stand up against corruption in government. There are dozens of examples I can post by Christians, Muslums, Jews, Whites, Indians, Chinese, Japanese, Germans, Brits, Africans, the list goes on and on..., that back up the need to voice one's opinions and views to better what's happening at that very time in history.

To sit back in our ez-chairs and judge what we do not know only adds to the problem that they are revolting against.

I urge you to educate yourselves on the why and the what instead of complaining about what you think you know.

Heaven

:pimp:

Bravo! ;)

[eusebioCBR]

I grew up poor, daycare was sitting on the ground all day with other children in an orange grove while our parents picked. Our diet was bean tacos three times a day. From this experience and my current occupation in agriculture I can't begin to count the number of immagrants I know. I'm a mexican and I've faced my share of prejudice, but that's life. My immagrant grandparents taught me to love America and be prepared to work hard. In every country there are people who just won't do some jobs because they feel they are above it. For instance, You'll mostly find mexicans and some asians working their asses off in the fields or fruit orchards in California. I guess that might be the reason there hasn't been any big mexican or asian riots in LA, they're too busy to bitch about society! And yes I'm well aware of the odd protest here and there, they do not represent everyone. When Cezar Chaves was out protesting, my Grandfather(Jesus Fabian) said "screw him, if my family needs food I'm going to WORK" and not in an office. Hard labor has to be done by someone and there is honor in a hard days work.

[RMadd]

so let me get this straight: you guys are advocating the use of violence when there exist alternative means?

[HeavenBesideYou]

so let me get this straight: you guys are advocating the use of violence when there exist alternative means?
No, I just understand why they are doing it...

Seems everyone is asking "why?", like they have no clue, that's all.

Heaven

:pimp:

[RMadd]

ah, well, i understand why they're doing it, but i don't agree with that form of resistance. only sets a bad precedent, whether the rioters "win" or "lose."

[eusebioCBR]

so let me get this straight: you guys are advocating the use of violence when there exist alternative means?
NO!!!!!!!!!!! If they can't cut it in France they should leave. If there are crappy back breaking jobs available they should take them.
Are these immagrants doing EVERYTHING they can to assimilate to their adopted home? Or are they trying to set up a separate community keeping their home language and traditions?

[Ana4Stapp]

so let me get this straight: you guys are advocating the use of violence when there exist alternative means?


NO ONE IS SAYING THAT, AND PLEASE DONT PUT WORDS IN OUR MOUTH-WE are that just trying to understand WHY that violence is coming up, what are the reasons behind this terrible situation.

Also, some numbers to think:

Clinchy-sous-Bois where - by the way that incidents (attacking and burning vehicles) happened:

* only 4,7% are graduate and *25% are unemployed...

[Ana4Stapp]

Are these immagrants doing EVERYTHING they can to assimilate to their adopted home? Or are they trying to set up a separate community keeping their home language and traditions?

i think its just the opposite: french society seems to keep them apart of the civilian rights...

[eusebioCBR]

Who stays where they're not wanted? My question still stands.

[RMadd]

NO ONE IS SAYING THAT, AND PLEASE DONT PUT WORDS IN OUR MOUTH-WE are that just trying to understand WHY that violence is coming up, what are the reasons behind this terrible situation.
i apologize... i wasn't trying to put words in your mouths, only clarify your view on the matter, b/c it seemed to me that 1 or 2 people were in support of rioting.

[HeavenBesideYou]

Who stays where they're not wanted? My question still stands.
Those who cannot leave.

You have those who are too old, too sick/disabled, too poor, those who cannot sell what little they have because there is no market for a bi-level slum complete with cockroaches, the list goes on and on...

When you have no job, no food, no money, no gas, no decent transportation, and limited if any resources, how are you going to leave?

Heaven

:pimp:

[eusebioCBR]

Those who cannot leave.

You have those who are too old, too sick/disabled, too poor, those who cannot sell what little they have because there is no market for a bi-level slum complete with cockroaches, the list goes on and on...

When you have no job, no food, no money, no gas, no decent transportation, and limited if any resources, how are you going to leave?

Heaven

:pimp:
Don't throw poverty at me as if I don't know it. I've lived it. This is looking more like a muslim riot. I guess I'm just no good at making excuses for people. :banghead:

[HeavenBesideYou]

Don't throw poverty at me as if I don't know it. I've lived it.

This is great!

So you can tell us how you rose from poverty, and enlighten us on how simple it is, subsequently solving a major issue that has afflicted the world for thousands of years?

Do tell...


Heaven

:pimp:

[eusebioCBR]

This is great!

So you can tell us how you rose from poverty, and enlighten us on how simple it is, subsequently solving a major issue that has afflicted the world for thousands of years?

Do tell...


Heaven

:pimp:
I never claimed anything to be easy. Life is hard and unfair.
I WORKED MY ASS OFF AND I DON'T WASTE TIME FEELING SORRY FOR MYSELF. This issue will be solved when one side wins and one side loses. Tell you what, if I'm wrong and global peace is declared between all cultures and RELIGIONS, I will owe you a Coke!

[Ana4Stapp]

Who stays where they're not wanted? My question still stands.

that question its not so simple...ya know? and people nowadays want their rights respected by the State and leaving its definitely a distant perspective ...

[HeavenBesideYou]

I never claimed anything to be easy. Life is hard and unfair.
I WORKED MY ASS OFF AND I DON'T WASTE TIME FEELING SORRY FOR MYSELF. This issue will be solved when one side wins and one side loses. Tell you what, if I'm wrong and global peace is declared between all cultures and RELIGIONS, I will owe you a Coke!
You were able to do what many dream of eusebio, I don't want to take that way from you, damn proud of you actually...

:)

The problem is, it's not easy, as you agree, and you may have had that one thing (that keeps others grounded in despair) revealed to you which helped your situation.

Kudos for the climb, it's a tough one, but try to remember not everyone can make it. This you must understand...

Heaven

:pimp:

[HeavenBesideYou]

that question its not so simple...ya know? and people nowadays want their rights respected by the State and leaving its definitely a distant perspective ...
Good point! How honorable is it to walk away from what you know could be helped if you stayed?

Heaven

:pimp:

[eusebioCBR]

Every individual holds some level of responsibility for their lives. I've learned that these immagrant communitys in France for the most part function as separate societys.
The same thing goes on here in America. There are some Mexican immagrants that do not want to assimalate to our cultare or learn english. I face predjudice from alot of these people because I don't speak spanish. My own Grandmother on my Fathers side still only speaks spanish and this limits her in so many ways.
If someone chooses an allegiance to soil(Country) they may have never touched and place the land of their birth second, they will limit themselves.
On the other hand if the French government is responsible for every citizens success, then I would agree they have a valid point.
I'm well aware of predjudice. We have it in America and it's all over the world, yet people still succeed.

[eusebioCBR]

I hope my posts on this issue aren't taken as arrogant or condescending. I truly don't believe the government is the ultimate solution to this problem. Individuals can't be forced by politicians to accept the differences in RELIGION and cultare. I don't know what the solution to the problem is. If I could speak to someone in this situation my advise would be to focus on self reliance. I'm just not confident in advising anybody to depend on the government to fix their lives. Governmant assistance will help, but a strong economy generates and sustains gainful employment. How to fix a countrys economy? There's a thread I would DREAD! :scared:

[Ana4Stapp]

See this:http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10002025/

" The riots have forced France to confront the touchy issue of the poor suburbs ringing big cities populated by immigrants and their French children. They face soaring unemployment, poverty and routine discrimination."


Its not the same of saying they (immigrants) refuse to teach french or to get into french culture, its much more deep than that: Its France definitely facing the other side, which society just prefer to hide...or pretend it simply doesnt exist...

[eusebioCBR]

I completely understand your point of view and I agree everyone should be treated equal.
*How does the government/society create jobs and what industry will these jobs support?
*Who will pay for the university/vocational training of the poor?
*How does any government change the heart and mind of anybody who disciminates or is racist?
If the answer is government programs, how will the programs be enforced?
In the case of anti discrimintion training, who will be forced to attend?
Most jobs require training/education and that costs money.
This is a huge problem, but I'm not content with just blaming one side of their society.
I will never be convinced that people do not have free will. They chose to riot against the people they want equality with.
Peaceful protests for the world to see might have worked :confused:

[Ana4Stapp]

Immigrants in countries like France, Spain, England, Portugal and Germany dont seem to think about peaceful protests... :rolleyes:

[The Lithium]

Now, how did this all start? How did the two teenagers die? I'm so not following you! :D

[Ana4Stapp]

See The story:http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9959700 and http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/11/13/france.rioting.ap/index.html

I hope now you are well informed ... ;)

[eusebioCBR]

Immigrants in countries like France, Spain, England, Portugal and Germany dont seem to think about peaceful protests... :rolleyes:
Good point, there are children in this situation I fear might learn from what they see and continue this cycle.

[Ana4Stapp]

Good point, there are children in this situation I fear might learn from what they see and continue this cycle.

the problem isnt what they will learn...its that governements do nothing for these people, and its not cause governement has to do 'everything', but they are responsible for this kind of situation, they have to offer mainly EDUCATION.